tax payer cost of this forum. is it worth it?

this coming monday night the roseville city council will be taking a vote to
spend $6000 of our taxpayer dollars to continue this e-democracy/roseville
issues website. do you think this is worth $6000 to the citizens of roseville?
can you think of something else that might be more worthwhile to spend $6000 of
our tax dollars on or do you think this is a wise expenditure?

i urge everyone to post their thoughts on this space, to contact council
members by e-mail or telephone, and, if possible, attend the meeting and let
the council know your thoughts, before they take the vote.

On Oct 21, 2006, at 10:29 PM, roger hess jr wrote:
> this coming monday night the roseville city council will be taking
> a vote to spend $6000 of our taxpayer dollars to continue this e-
> democracy/roseville issues website. do you think this is worth
> $6000 to the citizens of roseville? can you think of something else
> that might be more worthwhile to spend $6000 of our tax dollars on
> or do you think this is a wise expenditure?

This is a great example of the promise of local Issues Forums. Its
very powerful for someone to be able to identify a current issue,
bring it to the attention of others in their community (through a
forum like this one), and hopefully take action based upon the
information that comes out of a very timely discussion. I wish I saw
even more examples like this in the forum.

There is something ironic (yet very appropriate), about using the
Issues Forum to discuss whether or not to support the Issues Forum.
If it weren't for the Issues Forum, where would this discussion take
place?

:-)

I understand that this is an oversimplification - but, I couldn't
resist.

While usually, we discourage discussion about the forum itself in the
forum - now feels like a good time to get some feedback on this
experiment. In a separate email, I'll do my best to describe in more
detail what the $6000 is for and the history behind this initiative,
in case anyone has forgotten or recently joined the forum.

So, is the forum worth it?
Has the forum been a useful resource to you, so far....?
How would you like to see the forum improve?

Best wishes,

Tim Erickson
E-Democracy.Org

Rest of post

This forum definitely has potential and could very well make a return on the
investement. However, it doesn't seem to have wide buy-in right now. Sometimes
weeks go by without a new posting. The worth of the investment should directly
reflect participation, and in its current state the justification seems flimsy.
But that does not mean it should get immediately dismantled. This forum seems
relatively new - when was it set up? As such, depending on its age, it may just
need some time to catch on. Plus, on the surface $6,000 seems like a lot of
money to run an online forum. Where does that money go? What does it give us as
far as timeframe? One year? Five years? Perhaps cheaper ways exist that will
extend its life and help determine if the investment holds?

E-Democracy has great potential to increase involvement in local government,
but it likely needs some time. I would determine if $6,000 represents a
necessary expenditure to keep the idea running and, if so, give the technology
at least 2 years to catch on (if not, find cheaper alternatives). After that
time, if we're still seeing miniscule posting rates and obvious disinterest,
then harsh reality should set in. But, if interest rises, then give it some
more time. Of course coming up with metrics to determine citizen involvement
could fill a three day seminar. But general and flexible goals could get set
down in a short range plan. Does such a plan exist? If not, it should.

On Oct 23, 2006, at 2:43 PM, Tom Robbins wrote:
> This forum definitely has potential and could very well make a
> return on the investement. However, it doesn't seem to have wide
> buy-in right now. Sometimes weeks go by without a new posting. The
> worth of the investment should directly reflect participation, and
> in its current state the justification seems flimsy. But that does
> not mean it should get immediately dismantled. This forum seems
> relatively new - when was it set up? As such, depending on its age,
> it may just need some time to catch on. Plus, on the surface $6,000
> seems like a lot of money to run an online forum.

Tom makes some good points and raises some legitimate questions.

Let me take a few moments to try and explain our goals and plans for
the next year.

This issues forum is based upon a model that has been used
successfully by E-Democracy.Org in a handful of other cities and
communities in the United States and the UK. See [http://forums.e-
democracy.org/directory/] for a list of projects.

While there are hundreds or even thousands of online community forums
in communities across the country, very few had the success that our
forums have of including public officials, local media, and a
diversity of opinions in the forum. The goal of this forum is more
than to create a place where folks can talk with each other. Rather,
we're interested in impacting local decision making and increasing
civic participation. I think that you'll find this forum somewhat
(although not completely) unique.

As Tom points out, we're still in the early months of the forum and
we expect it to grow and increase in vitality over the next year.
Some of the things that we do to make sure the forum works for as
many people in Roseville as possible, is that we:

1) Organize a steering committee of local residents/stakeholders
who take responsibility for maintaining and promoting the forum.
We're currently working to organize this group.
2) We train and support a local volunteer forum manager, who
plays a critical role in keeping the forum civil and on topic.
(This is also part of the initial start-up expense).
3) We make an effort to get out into the community from time to time
to recruit new members who might not otherwise find the forum.
(We'll be doing more of this in the months to come).
4) We provide "high touch" support to forum members who encounter
difficulties subscribing or posting to the forum. You'll notice,
that I often provide my home phone number, where folks can contact
me with questions or to ask for technical support. Many forums
members have called me at home to take advantage of this.

In summary, the $6000 is really not so much for the technology of
hosting the forum as it is for the organizing, training, and support
to make this a viable and effective community forum. The $6000 is
really intended as seed money to get the project going. Its a one
time investment by the city council. In the future, the forum will be
run largely by local volunteers with support from E-Democracy.Org.

There will be future costs for "hosting," but these will be MUCH less
than $6000 per year and will most likely be funded from sources other
than city council.

Actually, I find it very courageous (and foresighted) of the city
council to invest this sum of money in a forum for community
engagement, which in the end will not belong to the council, rather
will be maintained by an independant group of citizens (acknowledging
of course, my own interest in the project).

If anyone has any questions, they should feel free to post them here.

In the meantime, the forum really belongs to you - and its failure or
success will depend upon the participation and support the forum gets
from you. If you like to see more discussion in the forum, please
take responsibility for helping to create it.

Thanks,

Tim Erickson
Temporary Forum Manager
Roseville Issues Forum
(Writing from London England, where I'm supporting
and helping launch even more E-Democracy.Org local
Issues Forums)
For E-Democracy.Org news:

Rest of post

Yes. Yes. Yes. The forum is worth $6,000 of my taxes.

A four month test period is not adequate to gage the value of this forum, nor
is reliance on the numbers of posted messages. It took me two months before I
posted, but I read every message that was posted, and it influenced my thinking
and tempered my cynicism and distrust of government.

Our quality of life in Roseville depends about our being connected to our
government, as well as each other. If we believe in citizen participation and
civility in government, this is a dynamic way for local government to reach us
and for us to respond. Not very many of us have the time or the endurance to
sit through a four hour city council meeting or a four month Community
Visioning process of subcommittee meetings and brainstorming sessions.

An October 19th St. Paul Pioneer Press front page article entitled Why Everyone
You Know Thinks Just Like You outlined the fact that most people interest in
civic affarirs associate nearly exclusively with others with similar political
beliefs. We thus ratchet up our anger and begin to wonder why anyone could
disagree; government is just not listening to our opinions so we have to yell
louder and louder so they can hear us.

So if your concerned about the growing polarization of our country and
community, AND civility in government, Roseville taxpayers need to continue
funding this forum.

Rest of post

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Erickson" <<email obscured>>
To: "RIF" <roseville-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: [RIF] tax payer cost of this forum. is it worth it?

> On Oct 21, 2006, at 10:29 PM, roger hess jr wrote:
>> this coming monday night the roseville city council will be taking a
>> vote to spend $6000 of our taxpayer dollars to continue this e-
>> democracy/roseville issues website. do you think this is worth $6000 to
>> the citizens of roseville? can you think of something else that might be
>> more worthwhile to spend $6000 of our tax dollars on or do you think
>> this is a wise expenditure?
>
> This is a great example of the promise of local Issues Forums. Its very
> powerful for someone to be able to identify a current issue, bring it to
> the attention of others in their community (through a forum like this
> one), and hopefully take action based upon the information that comes out
> of a very timely discussion. I wish I saw even more examples like this in
> the forum.
>
> There is something ironic (yet very appropriate), about using the Issues
> Forum to discuss whether or not to support the Issues Forum. If it
> weren't for the Issues Forum, where would this discussion take place?
>
> :-)
>
> I understand that this is an oversimplification - but, I couldn't resist.
>
> While usually, we discourage discussion about the forum itself in the
> forum - now feels like a good time to get some feedback on this
> experiment. In a separate email, I'll do my best to describe in more
> detail what the $6000 is for and the history behind this initiative, in
> case anyone has forgotten or recently joined the forum.
>
> So, is the forum worth it?
> Has the forum been a useful resource to you, so far....?
> How would you like to see the forum improve?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tim Erickson
> E-Democracy.Org
>
>
>
>
>
> Tim Erickson
> Hamline Midway, St. Paul
> More info: http://forums.e-democracy.org/Roseville/contacts/timerickson
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/topic/104559
>
> For digest or to update bio options (must log-in):
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/Roseville/groups/roseville-issues/
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> - - - - - - - - - - -

I'll let Tim Erickson take a full stab at the questions from Tom and
others. Tim is actually in England meeting with our three forums in
the UK (two city forums and one new neighborhood forum). He barely
has his costs covered by our UK hosts, so don't think we are jet-
setting on your dime. ;-)

It is my understanding that the council is approving the signed
contract and that the major policy decision by council was taken
before the forum opened. Back then we were asked questions about who
was liable for the space (we are) and we made sure the council
understood that they were supporting the *rapid* start up of the
forum, but that it would continue on with local citizen
interest/support/volunteers and could not be censored or closed by
the council.

The Roseville experience is leveraging:

* 12 years of E-Democracy.Org experience with such forums - we've
been all volunteer and based on demand are shifting to volunteer-
based with some staff (think Rotary, Girl Scouts)
* A $50,000+ investment by the UK government in 2005 in the model
(which we shared back with the Minnesota forums) - including use of
open source forum technology and our 60 page guidebook
* See the guidebook: http://e-democracy.org/uk/guide.pdf
* More: http://e-democracy.org/if

In the past, our forums (Minneapolis, St. Paul, Winona) took six
months or more to launch based completely on volunteer capacity. Our
model is designed to be sustainable and extremely low cost on an
ongoing basis based on volunteers. However, this start-up process is
quite a hurdle. That (and temporary external facilitation) is what
the $6,000 covers over a year. Our model is based on local control
and volunteer facilitation built on a shared base of universal rules
and shared technology. The local Roseville e-democracy committee will
also have the benefit of operating under our 501c.3 status and legal
support thereby avoid the cost/time cost of starting from scratch.

As we seek to spread the model, in the future a $10,000 funded start-
up figure will likely be presented to community foundations and other
local governments interested in "rapid" start-up for Issues Forums. A
local volunteer-based start-up option will remain as well. The other
week I presented to the local association of metropolitan city
managers and the Roseville experience interested a number of them. In
a year, you may be the first in a small pack.

With Roseville's leadership in the our first (of hopefully many)
locally funded forum launch, I know we will learn quite a bit from
the experience. Keep asking questions, but more importantly help us
help you build a foundation for any time, anywhere community
participation in efforts to make Roseville an even better place.

Thanks,
Steven Clift
Board Chair, E-Democracy.Org
^ ^ ^ ^
Steven L. Clift - - - W: http://publicus.net
Minneapolis - - - - E: <email obscured>
Minnesota - - - - - - T: +1.612.822.8667
USA - - - - Skype/MSN/Y!/AIM: netclift

Join Democracies Online: http://dowire.org
Start an Issues Forum: http://e-democracy.org/if

Rest of post

Hi All!

Darned if I ain't conflicted by this.

As an early member of the St Paul and Mpls E-Democracy forums as well as
MN-Politics (which I THINK is a related venture) I have enjoyed end
exploited the opportunity to sound off, knowing that at least SOME local
opinion leaders would be reading my blather.

That said, I guess I was naive to think that the whole thing was a volunteer
effort with some non-profit support for hosting and a stipend for Steve and
Tim, who as far as I know are the two main founders and steerers of the
forums.

So I am a bit surprised, at least at first, that Roseville needs to invest
$6000 to support this thing.

To be perfectly honest and blunt, the older forums have had their ups and
downs. I got kicked off Mpls a few years ago and never bothered to re-up
because it was simply a left-wing echo chamber, but St. Paul usually has a
bit more give and take.

Nevertheless, to this day, the St. Paul forum reaches 427 people and only a
couple of dozen regularly contribute seriously.

It the cost to Roseville were to be divided by the number of members current
(136) and potential, $6000 seems a bit lofty.

Another factor to to take into account is the wildly growing Blogosphere
where everyone gets to have a free soapbox and has the potential of
reaching, hypothetically, millions of people.

Still, this format is a more local and direct give and take -- where the
discussion is "pushed" into your mailbox than just all of us blogging
"pushing" into the ether and counting on our target audience to find us.

So I now have talked myself into a circle regarding the topic.

E-democracy is a good concept and deserves a chance. The paid help need to
eat. It a community values offering this sort of thing, I guess the oughta
pay.

What do I care, I live in Falcon Heights (smiley)!

Cheers!

Paul K
South of the Border.

Read my blog: http://www/wogsblog.com

Rest of post

YOWZA!

The link on my previous was bad. I DON'T Yahoo! It is
http://www.wogsblog.com

Also sorry for the typos -- I am a crappy proof reader.

Rest of post

PK

On 10/23/06, Paul Kuettel <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> Hi All!
>
> Darned if I ain't conflicted by this.
>
> As an early member of the St Paul and Mpls E-Democracy forums as well as
> MN-Politics (which I THINK is a related venture) I have enjoyed end
> exploited the opportunity to sound off, knowing that at least SOME local
> opinion leaders would be reading my blather.
>
> That said, I guess I was naive to think that the whole thing was a
> volunteer effort with some non-profit support for hosting and a stipend for
> Steve and Tim, who as far as I know are the two main founders and steerers
> of the forums.
>
> So I am a bit surprised, at least at first, that Roseville needs to invest
> $6000 to support this thing.
>
> To be perfectly honest and blunt, the older forums have had their ups and
> downs. I got kicked off Mpls a few years ago and never bothered to re-up
> because it was simply a left-wing echo chamber, but St. Paul usually has a
> bit more give and take.
>
> Nevertheless, to this day, the St. Paul forum reaches 427 people and only
> a couple of dozen regularly contribute seriously.
>
> It the cost to Roseville were to be divided by the number of members
> current (136) and potential, $6000 seems a bit lofty.
>
> Another factor to to take into account is the wildly growing Blogosphere
> where everyone gets to have a free soapbox and has the potential of
> reaching, hypothetically, millions of people.
>
> Still, this format is a more local and direct give and take -- where the
> discussion is "pushed" into your mailbox than just all of us blogging
> "pushing" into the ether and counting on our target audience to find us.
>
> So I now have talked myself into a circle regarding the topic.
>
> E-democracy is a good concept and deserves a chance. The paid help need
> to eat. It a community values offering this sort of thing, I guess the
> oughta pay.
>
> What do I care, I live in Falcon Heights (smiley)!
>
> Cheers!
>
> Paul K
> South of the Border.
>
> Read my blog: http://www/wogsblog.com
>

--
Paul Kuettel
Falcon Heights, Minnesota

See my site: http://kuettels.com
Read my blog: http://wogsblog.com

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