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There are 11 posts — by 9 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Glenn Williams at 2006 Oct 01 11:24 UTC

From: Tom Coady Date: 2006 Sep 29 07:39 UTC Short link

On 9/29/06, tony greenstein <tonygreenstein@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> The reason I've replied to individuals is that replies to messages go to
> individuals not the list, as I've just realised!

I agree it's very annoying you have to remember to repy all, delete the
original poster, and move BH from Cc: to To:

I actually understand to some extend the need to restrict posting but the
way it is managed by a mechanical rule is way to crude and inflexible. IMO.
Can we not be trusted to respect the list rule of 2 posts a day max?
Is it likely that people will flout this?
Is it possible some one will get away with a third post without getting
noticed?

From: Derek Parkinson Date: 2006 Sep 29 09:47 UTC Short link

>
> I actually understand to some extend the need to restrict posting but the
> way it is managed by a mechanical rule is way to crude and inflexible.
IMO.
> Can we not be trusted to respect the list rule of 2 posts a day max?

Well, as Dan says this forum was set up for slightly different reasons than
loads of others out there on the web. Sheer volume of postings isn't a
straightforward indicator of success for an e-democracy forum. Yes, of
course we want more discussion & more usage of the forum, but I suggest
growth should come from a wider cross-section of B&H (and any help
recruiting new users would be appreciated).

From: Mark Collins Date: 2006 Sep 29 10:44 UTC Short link

I have decided to leave the list for two reasons - the level of discussion is
very weak, with little or no evidence that the elected representatives ever
change their opionion or stance as a result of comments, just lurch into
defensiveness.  Secondly the two post limit is limiting in the extreme.

From: Dan Jellinek Date: 2006 Sep 29 11:28 UTC Short link

That's a shame Mark, but of course I understand.

The list is experimental, and some of these issues we are aware of but with
no resources other than volunteer time it is proving slow to initiate wider
recruitment (picking up on other issue of not being wide enough yet
geographically), promoting more to councillors, tracking results etc etc.

So at the moment it is ticking along but we do hope to re-energise it when
we get a chance. We did at one point have a series of monthly steering group
meetings open to all when issues like these were discussed, but time is very
tight for most of the founding volunteer members.

Do check again in a few months though, to see if we have shaken things up a
bit!

All the best,
Dan.

From: Glenn Williams Date: 2006 Sep 29 21:18 UTC Short link

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Williams [mailto:rollacoast@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 29 September 2006 13:02
To: 'Dan Jellinek'
Subject: RE: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default (off list
as my allocation has run out)

Dan,
     It's really sad if people are leaving because of the underlying nature
of the group. I don't agree with his first reason for leaving but do agree
with his second reason - although I have no intention of leaving yet.

I am on quite a few mailing lists and this one while being potentially one
of the most useful is not one that I find particularly functional. It's true
that on busy lists it can be annoying to get too much noise but I've only
been on one that became dysfunctional purely on the basis of a few selfish
posters. And that was because of a lack of discipline on behalf of the
moderators (not something this list's owners can be accused of ;0) )

I think we need to drop the rationing altogether and make replies to group
the default. I would also suggest a nice friendlier (local) home page to
entice newbies to the list.

I don't think the world's going to end if we stop rationing. When I look at
the way self-discipline dominates the SCIP list it reinforces my belief that
this is so.

Set up some rules about excessive posting by all means but allow the group
to enforce these rules - it usually works. That's true democracy!

[Will post this to the list later when my ration comes back]

Cheers,
       Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Jellinek [mailto:dan@headstar.com]
Sent: 29 September 2006 12:24
To: BH-Issues
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default

That's a shame Mark, but of course I understand.

The list is experimental, and some of these issues we are aware of but with
no resources other than volunteer time it is proving slow to initiate wider
recruitment (picking up on other issue of not being wide enough yet
geographically), promoting more to councillors, tracking results etc etc.

So at the moment it is ticking along but we do hope to re-energise it when
we get a chance. We did at one point have a series of monthly steering group

meetings open to all when issues like these were discussed, but time is very

tight for most of the founding volunteer members.

Do check again in a few months though, to see if we have shaken things up a
bit!

All the best,
Dan.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Collins" <markinsussex@roughwood.net>
To: "BH-Issues" <bh@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default

I have decided to leave the list for two reasons - the level of discussion
is very weak, with little or no evidence that the elected representatives
ever change their opionion or stance as a result of comments, just lurch
into defensiveness.  Secondly the two post limit is limiting in the extreme.
Mark Collins Burwash, Brighton More info:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/markcollins

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Dan Jellinek
Brighton and Hove
More info: http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/danjellinek

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From: Roy Pennington Date: 2006 Sep 29 21:32 UTC Short link

I think 4 posts a day would be good: 2 in the morning and then 2 in the
evening....or whatever............

to Mark:

the alternative (ie the Argus forum) is an appalling thought.........

From: Joyce Edmond-Smith Date: 2006 Sep 30 09:34 UTC Short link

Councillors do take note  (at least those on the list) but it is difficult
to "change things" when there is no consensus in the discussions, when
opinions are mostly from a very few people who therefore cannot be seen to
be representative and when much of the discussion is not as informed as it
could be.(when it is not knocking "the Council") . There is a real danger
that the list could come to be used to score political points, especially
as we get closer to the elections.    I see my role not as being defensive,
but at least trying to pick up specific issues and answer queries when I
can,  and give information so that people can take the issues further if
they wish. I also pass on points when appropriate - eg suggestions about
cycling etc.    In the end democracy cannot be run as a plebiscite on every
issue that comes up on the list . I already find the number of posting
difficult in an already overwhelming post box - but I continue with the
list because it is an additional way of communicating and listening and
that can only be good.

Whilst I have the floor ....  I don't know if people know that many
councillors now have web sites - accessible through the  B&H website.  I
know that is not as user friendly as it might be but there is a wealth of
information  there about what is happening in the city, and,  on issues
relating to their ward, people can always call or e-mail their councillors
(list of every ward and councillor also available on the site) for
information or to make a point. I can assure you councillors do listen to
their constituents.

Finally - I recognise the problems with two posting - on  the other hand it
is at least a safeguard against a conversation between very few people
hogging the system (including me when I am tempted to "respond"  when it is
really not necessary) .  I agree that one of the problems is that there are
too few people who actually contribute .... I know there are at least some
councillors lurking, but I imagine they are wary of  contributing ........

Joyce Edmond-Smith




                              "Dan Jellinek"       To:    "BH-Issues"
<bh@forums.e-democracy.org>
                            <dan@headstar.com>     cc:
                                                   Subject:     Re: [BH-Issues]
two post limit, reply off list by default
                             29/09/2006 12:24





That's a shame Mark, but of course I understand.

The list is experimental, and some of these issues we are aware of but with

no resources other than volunteer time it is proving slow to initiate wider

recruitment (picking up on other issue of not being wide enough yet
geographically), promoting more to councillors, tracking results etc etc.

So at the moment it is ticking along but we do hope to re-energise it when
we get a chance. We did at one point have a series of monthly steering
group
meetings open to all when issues like these were discussed, but time is
very
tight for most of the founding volunteer members.

Do check again in a few months though, to see if we have shaken things up a

bit!

All the best,
Dan.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Collins" <markinsussex@roughwood.net>
To: "BH-Issues" <bh@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default



I have decided to leave the list for two reasons - the level of discussion
is very weak, with little or no evidence that the elected representatives
ever change their opionion or stance as a result of comments, just lurch
into defensiveness.  Secondly the two post limit is limiting in the
extreme.
Mark Collins
Burwash, Brighton
More info: http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/markcollins

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Dan Jellinek
Brighton and Hove
More info: http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/danjellinek

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From: Dan Jellinek Date: 2006 Sep 30 10:05 UTC Short link

Thanks to Glenn, Roy and others who are contributing on this issue.

Re the point here you make Glenn about allowing the group to enforce posting
rules - it's all very well in theory but I suspect it would require a level
of organisation that would be impossible at the moment, unfunded as it all
is.
The automation is at least nice and simple!

I think some kind of consensus does seem to be emerging that some extension
would be OK with everyone, or most people, though, without scrapping the
rules altogether which would be very popular with some but very unpopular
with others.

In a few days' time though I will set up a vote to check if the majority of
list users are OK with a trial of doubling the post limit.

Cheers,
Dan.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Williams" <rollacoast@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <BH@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:18 PM
Subject: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Williams [mailto:rollacoast@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 29 September 2006 13:02
To: 'Dan Jellinek'
Subject: RE: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default (off list
as my allocation has run out)

Dan,
     It's really sad if people are leaving because of the underlying nature
of the group. I don't agree with his first reason for leaving but do agree
with his second reason - although I have no intention of leaving yet.

I am on quite a few mailing lists and this one while being potentially one
of the most useful is not one that I find particularly functional. It's true
that on busy lists it can be annoying to get too much noise but I've only
been on one that became dysfunctional purely on the basis of a few selfish
posters. And that was because of a lack of discipline on behalf of the
moderators (not something this list's owners can be accused of ;0) )

I think we need to drop the rationing altogether and make replies to group
the default. I would also suggest a nice friendlier (local) home page to
entice newbies to the list.

I don't think the world's going to end if we stop rationing. When I look at
the way self-discipline dominates the SCIP list it reinforces my belief that
this is so.

Set up some rules about excessive posting by all means but allow the group
to enforce these rules - it usually works. That's true democracy!

[Will post this to the list later when my ration comes back]

Cheers,
       Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Jellinek [mailto:dan@headstar.com]
Sent: 29 September 2006 12:24
To: BH-Issues
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default

That's a shame Mark, but of course I understand.

The list is experimental, and some of these issues we are aware of but with
no resources other than volunteer time it is proving slow to initiate wider
recruitment (picking up on other issue of not being wide enough yet
geographically), promoting more to councillors, tracking results etc etc.

So at the moment it is ticking along but we do hope to re-energise it when
we get a chance. We did at one point have a series of monthly steering group

meetings open to all when issues like these were discussed, but time is very

tight for most of the founding volunteer members.

Do check again in a few months though, to see if we have shaken things up a
bit!

All the best,
Dan.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Collins" <markinsussex@roughwood.net>
To: "BH-Issues" <bh@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default

I have decided to leave the list for two reasons - the level of discussion
is very weak, with little or no evidence that the elected representatives
ever change their opionion or stance as a result of comments, just lurch
into defensiveness.  Secondly the two post limit is limiting in the extreme.
Mark Collins Burwash, Brighton More info:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/markcollins

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Dan Jellinek
Brighton and Hove
More info: http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/danjellinek

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Glenn Williams
Elm Grove Area, Pavilion
More info:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/glennwilliams

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From: Chris Todd Date: 2006 Oct 01 10:08 UTC Short link

I prefer the two post limit - if it increases the mass of emails I get every
day I shall probably leave the list particularly as I don't think it will
necessarily add to the quality of debate.

I agree with changing the reply default though.

Regards,

Chris Todd

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Jellinek" <dan@headstar.com>
To: <BH@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default


> Thanks to Glenn, Roy and others who are contributing on this issue.
>
> Re the point here you make Glenn about allowing the group to enforce
posting
> rules - it's all very well in theory but I suspect it would require a
level
> of organisation that would be impossible at the moment, unfunded as it all
> is.
> The automation is at least nice and simple!
>
> I think some kind of consensus does seem to be emerging that some
extension
> would be OK with everyone, or most people, though, without scrapping the
> rules altogether which would be very popular with some but very unpopular
> with others.
>
> In a few days' time though I will set up a vote to check if the majority
of
> list users are OK with a trial of doubling the post limit.
>
> Cheers,
> Dan.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Glenn Williams" <rollacoast@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: <BH@forums.e-democracy.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:18 PM
> Subject: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glenn Williams [mailto:rollacoast@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 29 September 2006 13:02
> To: 'Dan Jellinek'
> Subject: RE: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default (off
list
> as my allocation has run out)
>
>
> Dan,
>      It's really sad if people are leaving because of the underlying
nature
> of the group. I don't agree with his first reason for leaving but do agree
> with his second reason - although I have no intention of leaving yet.
>
> I am on quite a few mailing lists and this one while being potentially one
> of the most useful is not one that I find particularly functional. It's
true
> that on busy lists it can be annoying to get too much noise but I've only
> been on one that became dysfunctional purely on the basis of a few selfish
> posters. And that was because of a lack of discipline on behalf of the
> moderators (not something this list's owners can be accused of ;0) )
>
> I think we need to drop the rationing altogether and make replies to group
> the default. I would also suggest a nice friendlier (local) home page to
> entice newbies to the list.
>
> I don't think the world's going to end if we stop rationing. When I look
at
> the way self-discipline dominates the SCIP list it reinforces my belief
that
> this is so.
>
> Set up some rules about excessive posting by all means but allow the group
> to enforce these rules - it usually works. That's true democracy!
>
> [Will post this to the list later when my ration comes back]
>
> Cheers,
>        Glenn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Jellinek [mailto:dan@headstar.com]
> Sent: 29 September 2006 12:24
> To: BH-Issues
> Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default
>
>
> That's a shame Mark, but of course I understand.
>
> The list is experimental, and some of these issues we are aware of but
with
> no resources other than volunteer time it is proving slow to initiate
wider
> recruitment (picking up on other issue of not being wide enough yet
> geographically), promoting more to councillors, tracking results etc etc.
>
> So at the moment it is ticking along but we do hope to re-energise it when
> we get a chance. We did at one point have a series of monthly steering
group
>
> meetings open to all when issues like these were discussed, but time is
very
>
> tight for most of the founding volunteer members.
>
> Do check again in a few months though, to see if we have shaken things up
a
> bit!
>
> All the best,
> Dan.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Collins" <markinsussex@roughwood.net>
> To: "BH-Issues" <bh@forums.e-democracy.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default
>
>
>
> I have decided to leave the list for two reasons - the level of discussion
> is very weak, with little or no evidence that the elected representatives
> ever change their opionion or stance as a result of comments, just lurch
> into defensiveness.  Secondly the two post limit is limiting in the
extreme.
> Mark Collins Burwash, Brighton More info:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/markcollins
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
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>
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>
>
>
>
> Dan Jellinek
> Brighton and Hove
> More info:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/danjellinek
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
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>
>
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 27/09/2006
>
>
>
> Glenn Williams
> Elm Grove Area, Pavilion
> More info:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/glennwilliams
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
> Dan Jellinek
> Brighton and Hove
> More info:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/danjellinek
>
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From: Rachel Papworth Date: 2006 Oct 01 10:15 UTC Short link

> if it increases the mass of emails I get every day I shall probably leave the
list

Is everyone aware that it's not essential to receive postings to the list as
individuals emails? I receive a single email (the daily digest) and can choose
which threads to look at. If I'm too busy on a particular day, I just delete
the digest. On other days, I look more closely and read entire threads.

From: Glenn Williams Date: 2006 Oct 01 11:24 UTC Short link

And presumably if the list gets loads more subscribers, thus increasing the
traffic, you would also unsubscribe? I think everyone probably agrees we
need more people on the list regardless of how much each individual is
permitted to post. It would thus seem that the list is at the ideal
population as far as you're concerned.

I think resolving problems people have because their 'mailboxes become too
full' is a common one but I really don't think that the solution is to
deliberately try to reduce the number of postings by whatever means. I agree
the quality of debate may not increase but at least the debates may become
less staggered and disjointed.

Rather than leave why don't you, as has already been suggested subscribe to
the digest and it is very easy to follow the threads on the list's home
page:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove

Cheers,
       Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Todd [mailto:chris.todd@zoom.co.uk]
Sent: 01 October 2006 11:07
To: <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default


I prefer the two post limit - if it increases the mass of emails I get every
day I shall probably leave the list particularly as I don't think it will
necessarily add to the quality of debate.

I agree with changing the reply default though.

Regards,

Chris Todd

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Jellinek" <dan@headstar.com>
To: <BH@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default


> Thanks to Glenn, Roy and others who are contributing on this issue.
>
> Re the point here you make Glenn about allowing the group to enforce
posting
> rules - it's all very well in theory but I suspect it would require a
level
> of organisation that would be impossible at the moment, unfunded as it
> all is. The automation is at least nice and simple!
>
> I think some kind of consensus does seem to be emerging that some
extension
> would be OK with everyone, or most people, though, without scrapping
> the rules altogether which would be very popular with some but very
> unpopular with others.
>
> In a few days' time though I will set up a vote to check if the
> majority
of
> list users are OK with a trial of doubling the post limit.
>
> Cheers,
> Dan.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Glenn Williams" <rollacoast@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: <BH@forums.e-democracy.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:18 PM
> Subject: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glenn Williams [mailto:rollacoast@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 29 September 2006 13:02
> To: 'Dan Jellinek'
> Subject: RE: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default
> (off
list
> as my allocation has run out)
>
>
> Dan,
>      It's really sad if people are leaving because of the underlying
nature
> of the group. I don't agree with his first reason for leaving but do
> agree with his second reason - although I have no intention of leaving
> yet.
>
> I am on quite a few mailing lists and this one while being potentially
> one of the most useful is not one that I find particularly functional.
> It's
true
> that on busy lists it can be annoying to get too much noise but I've
> only been on one that became dysfunctional purely on the basis of a
> few selfish posters. And that was because of a lack of discipline on
> behalf of the moderators (not something this list's owners can be
> accused of ;0) )
>
> I think we need to drop the rationing altogether and make replies to
> group the default. I would also suggest a nice friendlier (local) home
> page to entice newbies to the list.
>
> I don't think the world's going to end if we stop rationing. When I
> look
at
> the way self-discipline dominates the SCIP list it reinforces my
> belief
that
> this is so.
>
> Set up some rules about excessive posting by all means but allow the
> group to enforce these rules - it usually works. That's true
> democracy!
>
> [Will post this to the list later when my ration comes back]
>
> Cheers,
>        Glenn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Jellinek [mailto:dan@headstar.com]
> Sent: 29 September 2006 12:24
> To: BH-Issues
> Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default
>
>
> That's a shame Mark, but of course I understand.
>
> The list is experimental, and some of these issues we are aware of but
with
> no resources other than volunteer time it is proving slow to initiate
wider
> recruitment (picking up on other issue of not being wide enough yet
> geographically), promoting more to councillors, tracking results etc
> etc.
>
> So at the moment it is ticking along but we do hope to re-energise it
> when we get a chance. We did at one point have a series of monthly
> steering
group
>
> meetings open to all when issues like these were discussed, but time
> is
very
>
> tight for most of the founding volunteer members.
>
> Do check again in a few months though, to see if we have shaken things
> up
a
> bit!
>
> All the best,
> Dan.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Collins" <markinsussex@roughwood.net>
> To: "BH-Issues" <bh@forums.e-democracy.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] two post limit, reply off list by default
>
>
>
> I have decided to leave the list for two reasons - the level of
> discussion is very weak, with little or no evidence that the elected
> representatives ever change their opionion or stance as a result of
> comments, just lurch into defensiveness.  Secondly the two post limit
> is limiting in the
extreme.
> Mark Collins Burwash, Brighton More info:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/markcollins
>
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>
>
>
> Dan Jellinek
> Brighton and Hove
> More info:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/danjellinek
>
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>
>
> Glenn Williams
> Elm Grove Area, Pavilion
> More info:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/glennwilliams
>
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> Dan Jellinek
> Brighton and Hove
> More info:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/danjellinek
>
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Chris Todd

More info: http://forums.e-democracy.org/brighton-hove/contacts/christodd

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