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There are 49 posts — by 26 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Bruce Leier at 2007 Nov 20 18:10 UTC

From: Michael Cavlan Date: 2007 Nov 13 14:20 UTC Short link

Please be aware that this Friday Nov 16th Impeach For Peace will be at City
Hall in Minneapolis, promoting Impeachment.

Later the same day Youth Against War and Racism will have a student lead
walkout,
in opposition to the war on Iraq.

Questions, call me at (612)327-6902

Michael Cavlan
Powderhorn

Details for needed Peace Marshall's below


Be a PEACE MARSHAL for the
Antiwar Student WALKOUT, this Friday, Nov.16
*** Adults needed to help prevent police repression!
*** Please RSVP to <email obscured> with your name, phone number, and
group
affiliation (if any) if you can be a Peace Marshal.
*** Attend a Peace Marshal training, if possible, this Tuesday or Wednesday, at
6pm (details below).

Pre-Rally Peace Marshal Orientation, Friday, 12 Noon
at Government Plaza (5th St. and 4th Ave, downtown Minneapolis)

*** Youth Peace Marshals also needed! - Arrive with your school contingent,
then
register as a PM volunteer at the YAWR table.
*** Please forward this email to others who can help!
*** More info on walkout at: http://myspace.com/yawrMN

Youth Against War & Racism has high hopes for turnout at the November 16th
antiwar
walkout rally and march. We are now in touch with students from over 30 high
schools
who are mobilizing for the walkout, and we expect participation from many more,
including many colleges, across the metro region. Among the many inspiring
stories
from the walkout mobilization comes from small town Foley High, an hour and a
half
outside Minneapolis, where a new chapter of YAWR recently succeeded in pushing
military
recruiters out of their lunchroom, and are now raising money for a school bus
to
take to the walkout!

Across the region, students will be walking out of school at Noon (or earlier)
on
November 16th, and gathering for a 1pm rally at Government Plaza in downtown
Minneapolis
(5th St. & 4th Ave.). From there we will march to Augsburg College for a "mass
indoor antiwar extravaganza" featuring film, spoken word, music, and speeches.

*** Peace Marshals **VERY** IMPORTANT
YAWR aims to organize a team of Peace Marshals to ensure safe, inspirational,
and
educational rally and march, which will bring hundreds (maybe thousands!?!)
into
antiwar action for the first time. We aim to avoid any confrontations with the
police
or others.

However, the experience of student antiwar activists over the last several
years
with the police has not been great. While larger IPAC marches are allowed to
take
the streets without problems, police have sometimes tried to block more
youthful
antiwar marches. At the last student walkout in April 2006 several youth
decided
to throw red paint on a military recruitment station window (against the
objections
of YAWR Peace Marshals). The police responded by rushing the students with
police
horses and violently arrested three young women (including a 14 year old) who
had
nothing to do with the paint throwing.

This experience underlines the crucial importance of Peace Marshals to prevent
similar
situations developing. However, adult Peace Marshals are particularly important
because police will tend to be more hesitant to attack adults. Having said
that,
we will be in communication with the police and city officials, and we are
optimistic
our march will go smoothly.


Peace Marshal TRAINING (Tues. & Wed.)
*** Tuesday, Nov. 13
6:00pm - 7:00pm
University of Minnesota
Coffman Student Union Rm. 302
*** Wednesday, Nov. 14
6:00pm - 7:00pm
Mayday Bookstore
301 3rd Ave S, Minneapolis
(West Bank, below the Hub Bike Co-op

From: Kevin Wynn Date: 2007 Nov 13 15:56 UTC Short link

Encouraging high school students, minors, to leave school
to attend this protest?  What an incredibly bad idea!  I
hope no children are injured.  This is really stupid.

From: Jennifer Rubenzer Date: 2007 Nov 13 16:08 UTC Short link

Kevin is spot on with this one -- it's a bad idea.  Where will their parents
be?

If the parents agree with the YAWR stance, they should go to the school and
pick their kids up and be responsible for open and active communication
about the topic.  If the parents do not excuse their children from school,
the organizers should be charged with contributing to the delinquency of
minors.

This has nothing to do with impeachment and anti-war protesting, its simple
right and wrong.  Here's a Minneapolis related question: will truancy
officers step in?

Jenny

           Jennifer Rubenzer, Maple Grove

From: Tom Madden Date: 2007 Nov 13 16:20 UTC Short link

I have similar thoughts to what Kevin wrote.   I suspect, as I did
when I was in high school, many will protest because they can get out
of school rather than actually knowing about what they are supporting
through protest.

If you really want supporters to protest with you, have it take place
after school.   Green Party Mike, I encourage you to take this offer
for kids off the table and instead, organize a group of students to
take the issue on in depth after school and encourage them to round
up their peers for a debate or discussion on the topic.  That would
be useful student solution to your overall goal while not interfering
with our overall goal of educating all kids.

Respectfully,

Tom Madden
Live Lowry Hill
Work Longfellow
(and a school board member)

From: Charley Underwood Date: 2007 Nov 13 18:00 UTC Short link

Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students, minors, to leave school and
attend this protest?  What an incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children are
injured."

I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening our Minneapolis schools
to those who encourage children, minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway
place where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their presence with
such force that many of our children end up dead and many more end up wounded
for life, where they witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or medication.

If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website (http://www.yawr.org), you
will find that many of their efforts are against the pervasive military
recruitment in out public schools.

So I ask you two questions:

First, which do you think is the more dangerous situation, protesting on the
streets of Minneapolis or attacking the streets of Fallujah?

Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved in both activities.  Let
us further assume that the brave individual will sometimes need to take risks
in order to protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that Friday's
protest is very much designed to protect our freedoms?  Or do you truly believe
that our freedoms are only protected by killing those who disagree with our
foreign policy?

I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad happens to them at the
hands of our local gendarmes.  But I truly believe that much, much worse will
be happening to our children if we strip them of their freedoms, squelch their
dissent and punish them for recognizing the horrible cancer of war that is
growing within us.

From: Michael Cavlan Date: 2007 Nov 13 18:12 UTC Short link

First of All

I am not encouraging these brave kids from Youth Against War and Racism in
this. These kids came up with this themselves. I am proudly supporting them
though and plan to be a Peace Marshall in case there are any "incidents" with
Minneapolis PD or others. I also support them in their attempt to highlight
their outrage with the occupation on Iraq and build up to war on Iran. They
seem to care just a wee bit more about these things than say, some white,
upper-middle class, privileged, comfortable group of say bicyclists against
global warming. Their participation in the political process is to be
applauded.

Now, my son Sean was involved in the last school walk out and I am very proud
of him for this. Most of the kids shall be getting written permission from
their parents. So please "snitch" away as they will have their parents written
permission to attend this event and attempt to engage in the political process.
I know that Sean has my full, unconditional support as will the friends that he
will bring with him, if he so chooses to go.

As for the Impeach For Peace in Minneapolis City Council, well since the
Kucinich Bill HR 799, calling for the Impeachment of Cheney has been sent to
committee and appears about to languish in much the same way as HR 333 has,
apparently at the behest of the Democratic Party leadership, we in Impeach For
Peace have switched gears to Plan B. That means, time to go local and start the
process of creating the political pressure and will for Impeachment. There are
other aspects to this that you all will be hearing about in the very near
future. For now, know that we are targeting Minneapolis City Council and the
elected officials to pass a Resolution calling for Impeachment.

Know this, part of the thought process that we are undergoing is this. Any
elected official who does not actively support Impeachment and by extension
their duty to protect the Constitution and Bill of Rights shall be targeted. We
shall frame it thus. If you do not actively support and work for Impeachment,
then your lack of action (and spine) shall be evidence of your willingness to
protect the Bush Administration and by extension unwillingness to uphold your
sworn oath to protect and defend the Constitution.

I can assure you that many are sick and tired of the cowardice of our elected
officials and of so many "liberals" and pseudo-progressives. Enjoy your bike
ride. Meanwhile, some of us have work to do on global warming, the Occupation
of Iraq, Impeachment etc etc.

Michael Cavlan
Proud Father
Powderhorn

From: Jennifer Rubenzer Date: 2007 Nov 13 18:15 UTC Short link

Because of what you oppose (our military), you have the honor and right to
believe and give voice to your opinions.  You've taken a big chunk out of
the hand that feeds you.

Now, if we were talking about adults leaving school, as we are taking about
adults or children with parental consent joining the armed forces, we'd have
an apples-to-apples comparison.  Recruiters making themselves available for
discussion during school hours, gives anti-war youth an opportunity to
discuss and disagree first-hand and youth looking for opportunities in our
armed forces a chance to speak to a recruiter.  Its not a one-sided thing.

When I was in school, my recruiter visited my home and spoke with my mother
and I.  Are the adults involved in the YAWR movement being that respectful
of parental rights?  Of course not!

Let's not forget we're talking about CHILDREN.  I would defer to the parents
of those involved with the YAWR group for their thoughts.  Do we have any
here?

Jennifer Rubenzer

-----Original Message-----
From: Charley Underwood [mailto:charleyunderwood@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:03 PM
To: Minneapolis Issues Forum
Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment

Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students, minors, to leave school
and attend this protest?  What an incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children
are injured."

I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening our Minneapolis
schools to those who encourage children, minors, to take up arms and fight
in a faraway place where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
presence with such force that many of our children end up dead and many more
end up wounded for life, where they witness scenes of death and ugliness so
profound that the nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
medication.

If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website (http://www.yawr.org),
you will find that many of their efforts are against the pervasive military
recruitment in out public schools.

So I ask you two questions:

First, which do you think is the more dangerous situation, protesting on the
streets of Minneapolis or attacking the streets of Fallujah?

Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved in both activities.
Let us further assume that the brave individual will sometimes need to take
risks in order to protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that
Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our freedoms?  Or do you
truly believe that our freedoms are only protected by killing those who
disagree with our foreign policy?

I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad happens to them at the
hands of our local gendarmes.  But I truly believe that much, much worse
will be happening to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the horrible cancer of
war that is growing within us.

Charley Underwood
Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
Info about Charley Underwood:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood

This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
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From: Ed Felien Date: 2007 Nov 13 18:28 UTC Short link

Please forgive a personal reminiscence from an old radical.

When I was in the eighth grade at Folwell Junior High School in 1952 or '53, a
group of us were upset with the penny movie that we were all supposed to attend
after lunch.  It was a cheesy "Johnny Weissmuller is Tarzan" epic.  Some of us
talked it over and decided we should boycott the movie.  Since I was in charge
of stacking trays at one of the bussing stations, I could talk to a lot of the
students.  The guys at the other stations were in on it too, so we told
everyone that tomorrow we would all stay in the cafeteria and not go to the
movie.  Somehow, it worked.  No one told the teachers or principals and we all
just stayed in the cafeteria.  The assistant principal went nuts.  We were
perfectly well behaved, reading school books or talking to friends, but he was
running around blowing his whistle, and, then, he ordered everyone back to
their third period classes.  I didn't realize it at the time, but I'd witnessed
my first police riot.

Two things about the Student Walkout:  First, Green Party Mike isn't organizing
the event.  It's being organized by students.  It's patronizing to think
students couldn't come up with the idea themselves.  Second, it would be a
mistake for authorities to over-react to the event, although it would be
amusing to see assistant principals running around ordering students back to
the their third period classes.

My student boycott changed my life.  We won.  They changed the movie.  I came
to believe if people talked it over and organized they could change the world.
My experience taught me a lot.  I'm glad I didn't let school interfere with my
education.

Ed Felien
Powderhorn

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Madden

I have similar thoughts to what Kevin wrote.   I suspect, as I did
when I was in high school, many will protest because they can get out
of school rather than actually knowing about what they are supporting
through protest.

If you really want supporters to protest with you, have it take place
after school.   Green Party Mike, I encourage you to take this offer
for kids off the table and instead, organize a group of students to
take the issue on in depth after school and encourage them to round
up their peers for a debate or discussion on the topic.  That would
be useful student solution to your overall goal while not interfering
with our overall goal of educating all kids.

Respectfully,

Tom Madden
Live Lowry Hill
Work Longfellow
(and a school board member)

On Nov 13, 2007, at 9:55 AM, Kevin Wynn wrote:

> Encouraging high school students, minors, to leave school
> to attend this protest?  What an incredibly bad idea!  I
> hope no children are injured.  This is really stupid.
> --
>
>
> Kevin Wynn, Dad
> Minneapolis, MN
> 2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
> Northern Bikers for Global Warming
>
> Kevin Wynn
> Audubon Park, NE Minneapolis
> Info about Kevin Wynn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/
> kevinwynn

Tom Madden
Lowry Hill, Minneapolis
Info about Tom Madden: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tommadden

This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3ojarZUCXgTsf6uOQVDI6x
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 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
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2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.

From: Kevin Wynn Date: 2007 Nov 13 18:31 UTC Short link

I don't find recruiting objectionable.  Nor would you if
you supported the military actions we are involved in.
 Just because one is opposed to the war in Iraq does not
mean we do not a strong military.  Just because we are not
defending our borders does not mean we are not protecting
our country.

In fact, I have serious regrets that I did not serve in
the military or in some similar capacity when I was
younger.  I will not discourage my children from talking
to recruiters and serving our country if they choose to do
so.

What I see here is an effort to recruit youth into the
anti-whatever activist movement.  Create little protesters
who can grow up into big protesters.

In this respect Cavlan and his ilk are no better, and
maybe worse, than military recruiters.

You'll not find any support from me with your arguments
Charley.  The kids should be in school.

--


Kevin Wynn, Dad
Minneapolis, MN
2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
Northern Bikers for Global Warming


On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:01 +1300 (NZDT)
  "Charley Underwood" <charleyunderwood@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students,
>minors, to leave school and attend this protest?  What an
>incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children are injured."
>
> I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening
>our Minneapolis schools to those who encourage children,
>minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway place
>where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
>presence with such force that many of our children end up
>dead and many more end up wounded for life, where they
>witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
>nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
>medication.
>
> If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website
>(http://www.yawr.org), you will find that many of their
>efforts are against the pervasive military recruitment in
>out public schools.
>
> So I ask you two questions:
>
>First, which do you think is the more dangerous
>situation, protesting on the streets of Minneapolis or
>attacking the streets of Fallujah?
>
> Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved
>in both activities.  Let us further assume that the brave
>individual will sometimes need to take risks in order to
>protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that
>Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our
>freedoms?  Or do you truly believe that our freedoms are
>only protected by killing those who disagree with our
>foreign policy?
>
> I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad
>happens to them at the hands of our local gendarmes.  But
>I truly believe that much, much worse will be happening
>to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
>squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the
>horrible cancer of war that is growing within us.
>
> Charley Underwood
> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
> Info about Charley Underwood:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
> -----------------------------------------
>  To post, send your message to:
>mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or
>"digest on,"
>  in subject line and send to:
>mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
>
>  More info about Minneapolis Issues Forum:
>  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>  E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at
>http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at
>http://e-democracy.org/rules.
>   If you think a member is in violation, contact the
>forum manager at
>   <email obscured> before continuing it on the
>list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>

From: Jeane Moore Date: 2007 Nov 13 19:07 UTC Short link

Thank you, Ed, for this wonderful story.

Jeane Moore

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:33:10 -0600, you wrote:

>Please forgive a personal reminiscence from an old radical.
>
>When I was in the eighth grade at Folwell Junior High School in 1952 or '53, a
group of us were upset with the penny movie that we were all supposed to attend
after lunch.  It was a cheesy "Johnny Weissmuller is Tarzan" epic.  Some of us
talked it over and decided we should boycott the movie.  Since I was in charge
of stacking trays at one of the bussing stations, I could talk to a lot of the
students.  The guys at the other stations were in on it too, so we told
everyone that tomorrow we would all stay in the cafeteria and not go to the
movie.  Somehow, it worked.  No one told the teachers or principals and we all
just stayed in the cafeteria.  The assistant principal went nuts.  We were
perfectly well behaved, reading school books or talking to friends, but he was
running around blowing his whistle, and, then, he ordered everyone back to
their third period classes.  I didn't realize it at the time, but I'd witnessed
my first police riot.
>
>Two things about the Student Walkout:  First, Green Party Mike isn't
organizing the event.  It's being organized by students.  It's patronizing to
think students couldn't come up with the idea themselves.  Second, it would be
a mistake for authorities to over-react to the event, although it would be
amusing to see assistant principals running around ordering students back to
the their third period classes.
>
>My student boycott changed my life.  We won.  They changed the movie.  I came
to believe if people talked it over and organized they could change the world.
My experience taught me a lot.  I'm glad I didn't let school interfere with my
education.

From: Steve Kotvis Date: 2007 Nov 14 03:03 UTC Short link

I have contacted our high school principal about this. This is not a school
sanctioned activity. Without a note or call from home to the school, a
student leaving school for this is an unexcused absence.

From: Michael Thompson Date: 2007 Nov 14 13:58 UTC Short link

Like others, I'm with Kevin Wynn here.

A kids job is to go to school. All else, to include jobs and sports
and activism, are extras. When one of the extras impacts going to
school, then something is wrong. These kids are truants, regardless of
the notes they get from their parents.

As for the recruiters: they have a right to be in school as much as
anybody. Ed Felien chastises us for assuming that the students
couldn't come up with such a march idea on their own. But are not the
same students capable of rejecting a message from a prospective
employer with as much resolve? Banning recruiters, which is the
ultimate aim, is the typical liberal strategy: ban something we don't
like under the cloak of righteousness. Bans are in, often promoted by
people considering themselves free-thinkers (though bans are as
repressive a public policy tool as we have, but that's another
thread). Anyway, I would think that students who are so inspired and
enlightened as to take to the streets during school would have no
problem rejecting the message of military recruiters, and encouraging
their peers to do the same. without being threatened by their presence
in their school.

And I sincerely hope that the students choosing truancy today realize
that military recruiters play a large role in their ability to
"march." The military, staffed through the work of recruiters,
ultimately protects their ability to assemble and speak. I have little
doubt that that is a lesson lost in the zeal to look all liberal and
trendy and neat-o, all whilst skipping class.

And impeachment? Bush and Cheney won, folks. I didn't vote for them,
either. But please consider getting over it. If the impeachment folks
put as much effort into doing something tangible like adopting a
highway or patrolling a  neighborhood or painting Dyna Sluyter's
house, things might actually begin to change, perhaps quickly. And Mr.
Cavlan's logic and commentary regarding elected is quite Bushesque: if
you're not against 'em, you're for 'em.

We're going down the tubes.

Mike Thompson
Windom



Quoting Kevin Wynn <kevinwynn@visi.com>:

> I don't find recruiting objectionable.  Nor would you if
> you supported the military actions we are involved in.
>  Just because one is opposed to the war in Iraq does not
> mean we do not a strong military.  Just because we are not
> defending our borders does not mean we are not protecting
> our country.
>
> In fact, I have serious regrets that I did not serve in
> the military or in some similar capacity when I was
> younger.  I will not discourage my children from talking
> to recruiters and serving our country if they choose to do
> so.
>
> What I see here is an effort to recruit youth into the
> anti-whatever activist movement.  Create little protesters
> who can grow up into big protesters.
>
> In this respect Cavlan and his ilk are no better, and
> maybe worse, than military recruiters.
>
> You'll not find any support from me with your arguments
> Charley.  The kids should be in school.
> --
>
>
> Kevin Wynn, Dad
> Minneapolis, MN
> 2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
> Northern Bikers for Global Warming
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:01 +1300 (NZDT)
>   "Charley Underwood" <charleyunderwood@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students,
>> minors, to leave school and attend this protest?  What an
>> incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children are injured."
>>
>> I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening
>> our Minneapolis schools to those who encourage children,
>> minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway place
>> where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
>> presence with such force that many of our children end up
>> dead and many more end up wounded for life, where they
>> witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
>> nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
>> medication.
>>
>> If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website
>> (http://www.yawr.org), you will find that many of their
>> efforts are against the pervasive military recruitment in
>> out public schools.
>>
>> So I ask you two questions:
>>
>> First, which do you think is the more dangerous
>> situation, protesting on the streets of Minneapolis or
>> attacking the streets of Fallujah?
>>
>> Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved
>> in both activities.  Let us further assume that the brave
>> individual will sometimes need to take risks in order to
>> protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that
>> Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our
>> freedoms?  Or do you truly believe that our freedoms are
>> only protected by killing those who disagree with our
>> foreign policy?
>>
>> I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad
>> happens to them at the hands of our local gendarmes.  But
>> I truly believe that much, much worse will be happening
>> to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
>> squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the
>> horrible cancer of war that is growing within us.
>>
>> Charley Underwood
>> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
>> Info about Charley Underwood:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood
>>
>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
>> -----------------------------------------
>>  To post, send your message to:
>> <email obscured>
>>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or
>> "digest on,"
>>  in subject line and send to:
>> <email obscured>
>>
>>  More info about Minneapolis Issues Forum:
>>  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>>
>>  E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at
>> http://OnlineGroups.Net
>>
>> 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at
>> http://e-democracy.org/rules.
>>   If you think a member is in violation, contact the
>> forum manager at
>>   <email obscured> before continuing it on the
>> list.
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>>
>
> Kevin Wynn
> Audubon Park, NE Minneapolis
> Info about Kevin Wynn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/kevinwynn
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From: Steve Kotvis Date: 2007 Nov 14 14:06 UTC Short link

It's my belief that impeachment is not about who won or lost. It's about if
our administration (I didn't vote for them either, but since they won, it is
"ours") is breaking the law of the land, and that they are not above it.
Because someone won doesn't give them the right to break our laws. Separate
issues in my book.

________________________
Steve Kotvis
Kenwood Minneapolis


> From: <mthomps@mninter.net>
> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:57:49 -0600
> To: <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org>
> Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
>
> Like others, I'm with Kevin Wynn here.
>
> A kids job is to go to school. All else, to include jobs and sports
> and activism, are extras. When one of the extras impacts going to
> school, then something is wrong. These kids are truants, regardless of
> the notes they get from their parents.
>
> As for the recruiters: they have a right to be in school as much as
> anybody. Ed Felien chastises us for assuming that the students
> couldn't come up with such a march idea on their own. But are not the
> same students capable of rejecting a message from a prospective
> employer with as much resolve? Banning recruiters, which is the
> ultimate aim, is the typical liberal strategy: ban something we don't
> like under the cloak of righteousness. Bans are in, often promoted by
> people considering themselves free-thinkers (though bans are as
> repressive a public policy tool as we have, but that's another
> thread). Anyway, I would think that students who are so inspired and
> enlightened as to take to the streets during school would have no
> problem rejecting the message of military recruiters, and encouraging
> their peers to do the same. without being threatened by their presence
> in their school.
>
> And I sincerely hope that the students choosing truancy today realize
> that military recruiters play a large role in their ability to
> "march." The military, staffed through the work of recruiters,
> ultimately protects their ability to assemble and speak. I have little
> doubt that that is a lesson lost in the zeal to look all liberal and
> trendy and neat-o, all whilst skipping class.
>
> And impeachment? Bush and Cheney won, folks. I didn't vote for them,
> either. But please consider getting over it. If the impeachment folks
> put as much effort into doing something tangible like adopting a
> highway or patrolling a  neighborhood or painting Dyna Sluyter's
> house, things might actually begin to change, perhaps quickly. And Mr.
> Cavlan's logic and commentary regarding elected is quite Bushesque: if
> you're not against 'em, you're for 'em.
>
> We're going down the tubes.
>
> Mike Thompson
> Windom
>
>
>
> Quoting Kevin Wynn <kevinwynn@visi.com>:
>
>> I don't find recruiting objectionable.  Nor would you if
>> you supported the military actions we are involved in.
>>  Just because one is opposed to the war in Iraq does not
>> mean we do not a strong military.  Just because we are not
>> defending our borders does not mean we are not protecting
>> our country.
>>
>> In fact, I have serious regrets that I did not serve in
>> the military or in some similar capacity when I was
>> younger.  I will not discourage my children from talking
>> to recruiters and serving our country if they choose to do
>> so.
>>
>> What I see here is an effort to recruit youth into the
>> anti-whatever activist movement.  Create little protesters
>> who can grow up into big protesters.
>>
>> In this respect Cavlan and his ilk are no better, and
>> maybe worse, than military recruiters.
>>
>> You'll not find any support from me with your arguments
>> Charley.  The kids should be in school.
>> --
>>
>>
>> Kevin Wynn, Dad
>> Minneapolis, MN
>> 2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
>> Northern Bikers for Global Warming
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:01 +1300 (NZDT)
>>   "Charley Underwood" <charleyunderwood@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students,
>>> minors, to leave school and attend this protest?  What an
>>> incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children are injured."
>>>
>>> I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening
>>> our Minneapolis schools to those who encourage children,
>>> minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway place
>>> where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
>>> presence with such force that many of our children end up
>>> dead and many more end up wounded for life, where they
>>> witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
>>> nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
>>> medication.
>>>
>>> If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website
>>> (http://www.yawr.org), you will find that many of their
>>> efforts are against the pervasive military recruitment in
>>> out public schools.
>>>
>>> So I ask you two questions:
>>>
>>> First, which do you think is the more dangerous
>>> situation, protesting on the streets of Minneapolis or
>>> attacking the streets of Fallujah?
>>>
>>> Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved
>>> in both activities.  Let us further assume that the brave
>>> individual will sometimes need to take risks in order to
>>> protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that
>>> Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our
>>> freedoms?  Or do you truly believe that our freedoms are
>>> only protected by killing those who disagree with our
>>> foreign policy?
>>>
>>> I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad
>>> happens to them at the hands of our local gendarmes.  But
>>> I truly believe that much, much worse will be happening
>>> to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
>>> squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the
>>> horrible cancer of war that is growing within us.
>>>
>>> Charley Underwood
>>> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
>>> Info about Charley Underwood:
>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood
>>>
>>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
>>> -----------------------------------------
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>>> <email obscured>
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>>>  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
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>>>
>>
>> Kevin Wynn
>> Audubon Park, NE Minneapolis
>> Info about Kevin Wynn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/kevinwynn
>>
>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4TW6yKE4GAIesDHqBYhD8L
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>
>
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>
> Michael Thompson
> Windom, Minneapolis
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From: Joe Nathan Date: 2007 Nov 14 14:26 UTC Short link

Not wanting to be difficult, I think part of what a young person needs
to learn is how to make thoughtful, informed decisions.  Another thing a
young person needs to learn is how to be an active, constructive,
involved citizen.  And a third thing that a student needs to learn (this
is not a complete list) is how to think carefully about the consequences
of her/his actions.

I can imagine a high school student doing all of the above and
concluding that the most important thing for her/him to do on a
particular day, at a particular time, is to join with others outside of
a school building, and challenging the Iraq war.  I can also an imagine
a young person doing all of the above and deciding there are other ways
to challenge the Iraq war (or being involved in another important issue)
that do not require leaving a school building during the day.

Hopefully, a student will have discussed these issues with her/his
parent(s) or guardians.  But sometimes there is significant
intergenerational conflict.  (Having participated in a variety of civil
rights and Vietnam era protests, I have seen how this played out in my
own family, and in families of good friends.  David Halberstram wrote a
marvelous book called "The Children."  One of the key themes of this
powerful presentation about civil rights struggles in Nashville
Tennessee was the conflict between college students, their families and
the colleges that they attended.  Students felt a strong need to protest
and challenge.  Their parents and colleges often vigorously opposed
their efforts.  Fortunately the students, with great courage,
persisted.  They thought carefully about the consequences of their
actions, and spoke out for civil rights that too often we now take for
granted.

We should not always equate schooling and learning.  There is a lot to
be learned  and accomplished outside a school building (whether at the
k-12, or higher ed level).

Sincerely

Joe Nathan
Center for School Change
Humphrey Institute
University of Minnesota

Steve Kotvis wrote:
> It's my belief that impeachment is not about who won or lost. It's about if
> our administration (I didn't vote for them either, but since they won, it is
> "ours") is breaking the law of the land, and that they are not above it.
> Because someone won doesn't give them the right to break our laws. Separate
> issues in my book.
> ________________________
> Steve Kotvis
> Kenwood Minneapolis
>
>
>
>> From: <mthomps@mninter.net>
>> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:57:49 -0600
>> To: <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
>>
>> Like others, I'm with Kevin Wynn here.
>>
>> A kids job is to go to school. All else, to include jobs and sports
>> and activism, are extras. When one of the extras impacts going to
>> school, then something is wrong. These kids are truants, regardless of
>> the notes they get from their parents.
>>
>> As for the recruiters: they have a right to be in school as much as
>> anybody. Ed Felien chastises us for assuming that the students
>> couldn't come up with such a march idea on their own. But are not the
>> same students capable of rejecting a message from a prospective
>> employer with as much resolve? Banning recruiters, which is the
>> ultimate aim, is the typical liberal strategy: ban something we don't
>> like under the cloak of righteousness. Bans are in, often promoted by
>> people considering themselves free-thinkers (though bans are as
>> repressive a public policy tool as we have, but that's another
>> thread). Anyway, I would think that students who are so inspired and
>> enlightened as to take to the streets during school would have no
>> problem rejecting the message of military recruiters, and encouraging
>> their peers to do the same. without being threatened by their presence
>> in their school.
>>
>> And I sincerely hope that the students choosing truancy today realize
>> that military recruiters play a large role in their ability to
>> "march." The military, staffed through the work of recruiters,
>> ultimately protects their ability to assemble and speak. I have little
>> doubt that that is a lesson lost in the zeal to look all liberal and
>> trendy and neat-o, all whilst skipping class.
>>
>> And impeachment? Bush and Cheney won, folks. I didn't vote for them,
>> either. But please consider getting over it. If the impeachment folks
>> put as much effort into doing something tangible like adopting a
>> highway or patrolling a  neighborhood or painting Dyna Sluyter's
>> house, things might actually begin to change, perhaps quickly. And Mr.
>> Cavlan's logic and commentary regarding elected is quite Bushesque: if
>> you're not against 'em, you're for 'em.
>>
>> We're going down the tubes.
>>
>> Mike Thompson
>> Windom
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Kevin Wynn <kevinwynn@visi.com>:
>>
>>
>>> I don't find recruiting objectionable.  Nor would you if
>>> you supported the military actions we are involved in.
>>>  Just because one is opposed to the war in Iraq does not
>>> mean we do not a strong military.  Just because we are not
>>> defending our borders does not mean we are not protecting
>>> our country.
>>>
>>> In fact, I have serious regrets that I did not serve in
>>> the military or in some similar capacity when I was
>>> younger.  I will not discourage my children from talking
>>> to recruiters and serving our country if they choose to do
>>> so.
>>>
>>> What I see here is an effort to recruit youth into the
>>> anti-whatever activist movement.  Create little protesters
>>> who can grow up into big protesters.
>>>
>>> In this respect Cavlan and his ilk are no better, and
>>> maybe worse, than military recruiters.
>>>
>>> You'll not find any support from me with your arguments
>>> Charley.  The kids should be in school.
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin Wynn, Dad
>>> Minneapolis, MN
>>> 2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
>>> Northern Bikers for Global Warming
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:01 +1300 (NZDT)
>>>   "Charley Underwood" <charleyunderwood@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students,
>>>> minors, to leave school and attend this protest?  What an
>>>> incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children are injured."
>>>>
>>>> I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening
>>>> our Minneapolis schools to those who encourage children,
>>>> minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway place
>>>> where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
>>>> presence with such force that many of our children end up
>>>> dead and many more end up wounded for life, where they
>>>> witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
>>>> nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
>>>> medication.
>>>>
>>>> If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website
>>>> (http://www.yawr.org), you will find that many of their
>>>> efforts are against the pervasive military recruitment in
>>>> out public schools.
>>>>
>>>> So I ask you two questions:
>>>>
>>>> First, which do you think is the more dangerous
>>>> situation, protesting on the streets of Minneapolis or
>>>> attacking the streets of Fallujah?
>>>>
>>>> Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved
>>>> in both activities.  Let us further assume that the brave
>>>> individual will sometimes need to take risks in order to
>>>> protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that
>>>> Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our
>>>> freedoms?  Or do you truly believe that our freedoms are
>>>> only protected by killing those who disagree with our
>>>> foreign policy?
>>>>
>>>> I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad
>>>> happens to them at the hands of our local gendarmes.  But
>>>> I truly believe that much, much worse will be happening
>>>> to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
>>>> squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the
>>>> horrible cancer of war that is growing within us.
>>>>
>>>> Charley Underwood
>>>> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
>>>> Info about Charley Underwood:
>>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood
>>>>
>>>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>>  To post, send your message to:
>>>> <email obscured>
>>>>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or
>>>> "digest on,"
>>>>  in subject line and send to:
>>>> <email obscured>
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>>>>  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>>>>
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>>>> -----------------------------------------
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>>>> http://e-democracy.org/rules.
>>>>   If you think a member is in violation, contact the
>>>> forum manager at
>>>>   <email obscured> before continuing it on the
>>>> list.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Kevin Wynn
>>> Audubon Park, NE Minneapolis
>>> Info about Kevin Wynn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/kevinwynn
>>>
>>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4TW6yKE4GAIesDHqBYhD8L
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> Michael Thompson
>> Windom, Minneapolis
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>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/michaelthompson
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>
>
> Steve Kotvis
>
> Info about Steve Kotvis: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/stevekotvis
>
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http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6q8roc40K1wdmyShKiY39Q
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>

From: Jessica Wicks Date: 2007 Nov 14 14:38 UTC Short link

I'm with Steve on this. I did not scream when Clinton was impeached
for lying in sworn testimony. The fact is that behavior is illegal.
This president has violated countless laws, and his exemption from
impeachment is a crying shame. But back to the kids. I love when I
hear cries that the kids are going "down the tubes." I'm 60 years old
now, and remember our own protests back when. This was before Vietnam
was quite the issue, and some of our protests were a bit frivolous in
retrospect, it was very much a passage of youth. And the adults of
that day shook their heads and decried the way the kids were going
down the tubes.

Despite rumors to the contrary, many young people today are well
informed and care about the world they live in. Frankly, recruiters
have no place on a high school campus. It's not been done before. But
now in an immoral war many of the usual understandings have gone by
the wayside.

You know, I honor the folks who choose to serve our nation. They are
just ordinary folks like you and me. But the notion that what they
are doing in Iraq is making my life safer in Minneapolis is
ludicrous. That is the delusion of a delusional leadership. We have
military power to literally wipe out all living beings, or at least
most of them. War torn Iraq poses no real threat. Other than the new
terrorists we are breeding because we are trying to spread our empire
based on neo-conservative theories and pipe dreams.

Our youth will make mistakes. We did as well. But at least they have
the willingness and gumption to speak out in a serious way. I think
they are also serving our nation well. It is that power of the people
that has made our country great. I applaud their efforts!


Peace;

Jessi (Jessica Wicks)
Sheridan, N.E. Mpls

"I should like to be able to love my country and still love justice."
Albert Camus

From: Michael Jensvold Date: 2007 Nov 14 15:09 UTC Short link

Recruiters tell young men (yes, mostly men) whatever they want to hear,
promises of glory, college money, success with women... are they really looking
for people to serve their country or for fresh meat?
Neverending war is far worse than one missed day of school... but I question
the timing.
However, I'm skeptical about the "student-led" claim.
Youth Against War and Racism sounds alot like Act Now to Stop War and End
Racism or A.N.S.W.E.R. the un-reconstructed radicals who led the big protests 4
years ago.
We need more protests, but I wish they were led by people that ordinary
non-radical folk could get behind.
Mike Jensvold
East Isles

From: Michael Cavlan Date: 2007 Nov 14 17:43 UTC Short link

I can personally guarentee you that YAWR has nothing to do with ANSWER. I agree
with you about ANSWER and in fact have no real time for them as they constantly
prove Cindy Sheehan right. You know, in the fact so many of the "peace"
community refuse to hold the Democratic Party just as complicit and responsible
for the mess we are in as the Bush Administration. They are a glorified version
of MoveOn.Org. That is an observation and critique made on a local as well as
national level. I have seen this evident by local activists constant protests
and calls to action against, say Senator Coleman while refusing to organize the
same thing with Senator Klobuchar.

YAWR, on the other hand are local and youth organized and led. I have the
utmost respect for YAWR. They also have no problem in holding the Democrats
just as accountable for the mess we are in in Iraq, lack of Impeachment and
pending war on Iran.

As for the Military Recruiters, I also agree. Recruiters lie, flat out lie to
our kids and take advantage of their nievete, poverty, desire for college and
sense of invincibility. They also flat out lie to kids about "oh, you will
never go to Iraq, we need you more in ...." Kids sign up and bang, they are on
the way to Iraq. YAWR have done a wonderful job of confronting there liars, on
campus and exposing their lies.

I am very proud of YAWR and what they are doing. Meanwhile, as usual they are
attacked by the usual assortment of "chickenhawks" and/or upper middle-class,
priviledged white "liberals" peddling cyclists for global warming.

Same old story, different day.

Michael Cavlan
Powderhorn

From: Jennifer Rubenzer Date: 2007 Nov 14 21:44 UTC Short link

Please correct me if I am wrong, but...

It seems a Socialist by the name of Ty Moore is the local mastermind behind
YAWR.  He's been vocal on the Socialist scene since 2003.  Is he in High
School?  Did he start writing down his Socialist thoughts when he was in
Middle School?  Or is the truth that politically RADICAL local adults are
behind the movement and the walk out?

Again, I pray no one is hurt, but should that occur, Ty Moore, Michael
Cavlan and their ilk should be held responsible.  And let's be real here,
anyone who is publishing information and encouraging support and
participation, like Mike, is by default a promoter.

As I am having a get real moment, let me also say Tom that leaving school,
marching down the street screaming at the top of your lungs and throwing the
same red paint you have smeared across your face on buildings, is hardly
skipping a movie and reading quietly in the lunch room.  I mean HELLO
people!  As you flash back to your days of civil disobedience, would you
really want your kids to act as you did (barring the harmless movie
boycott)?

We're all smarter now than we were then.  These kids are being brainwashed
by the "other" man.  They're moving along the same train of thought as
Hollywood.  They're expressing the pop culture opinion.  It's not wisdom or
bravery, its popularity--pure and simple.

All of that without insulting the people I disagree with...I guess you could
take Socialist as an insult. :)


           Jennifer Rubenzer, Maple Grove

From: Guy Gambill Date: 2007 Nov 14 21:48 UTC Short link

Greetings,

     This is an interesting thread which raises many, many issues. First of
all, I think people
  need to understand how recruiters operate. They operate based on a targeted
quota system-each recruiter must sign up a set number per period. Therefore,
being reasonably intelligent,
  where would you recruit if you were in the military and living in the Metro?
If you were a
  Marine or Army recruiter would you go to areas where you had a better chance
of success?
  Would you focus 90% of your time in Eagan or Wayzata or in areas where
children had
  fewer economic and social possibilities? The Air Force is, by far and away,
the branch
  of the service that takes the recruits with the highest test scores, the
prospects with
  the highest abilities. The men and women who end up being in combat arms in
the Corps
  and Army tend to be folks who have lesser options in our society. I am sure
that many
  would object to this assertion....but then most of them never did a day in
uniform themselves. I cannot assist them in their struggle with reality.I can
tell you that, over 25 years ago when I was in combat arms, the vast majority
of my company were young men
  coming from places like inner city Detroit, Compton, Newark, Kansas
City....35-40% were
  black, another 10% Latino or Native....in short, most combat line units were
not (and are
  not) representative of the demographics in America. What this means is that
the military
  recruits disproportionately in areas lacking in economic
opportunities....that would
  be my objection.
     In terms of what thoughts arise on the anti-war initiatives: Many proceed
from an
  assumption that Iraq-Afghanistan vets are against the War...many aren't, some
are.
  To choose to not listen to their views is to not engage in balanced
policy-making
  decisions.
      For those who support the war, all too often the folks in this camp
assume ultra-patriotic
  stances while never seeming to willing to ante up anything of their own
accord. For these
  people, there are many opportunities for you in Iraq...if you feel that
strongly, by all means
  put your keester where your mouth is...and quit asking the poor and people of
color to
  do your dying...yes, the Majority of our Guard and Reserve Contingents in
Iraq and Afghanistan look more like mainstream Minnnesotans....but remember
that the Ranger
  Battalions, Airborne Units, the mainstream Corps and the line units are
mostly regulars....
  they do the bulk of the dying...really.
       I think folks on both sides assume a great deal, without checking things
out fully.
  At the end of the day recruiters target poor kids more frequently...that is
simply how
  it is. I have a bit of a problem with that. The folks in YAWR that I have
encountered
  often speak for Vets as a whole but only talk to a few people from
VFP....that is
  as mis-leading as what the pro-war folks do. I would also indicate that for
all the concern
  for vets coming up during an election year....I never see 95% of any of these
folks (from
  either side) showing up at any facility to talk to the vets they proclaim to
care about.
  It's a case of inflated rhetoric to fit a personal agenda....an agenda not
thought out
  fully.

  Guy Gambill
  Northeast




Joe Nathan <jnathan@umn.edu> wrote:
  Not wanting to be difficult, I think part of what a young person needs
to learn is how to make thoughtful, informed decisions. Another thing a
young person needs to learn is how to be an active, constructive,
involved citizen. And a third thing that a student needs to learn (this
is not a complete list) is how to think carefully about the consequences
of her/his actions.

I can imagine a high school student doing all of the above and
concluding that the most important thing for her/him to do on a
particular day, at a particular time, is to join with others outside of
a school building, and challenging the Iraq war. I can also an imagine
a young person doing all of the above and deciding there are other ways
to challenge the Iraq war (or being involved in another important issue)
that do not require leaving a school building during the day.

Hopefully, a student will have discussed these issues with her/his
parent(s) or guardians. But sometimes there is significant
intergenerational conflict. (Having participated in a variety of civil
rights and Vietnam era protests, I have seen how this played out in my
own family, and in families of good friends. David Halberstram wrote a
marvelous book called "The Children." One of the key themes of this
powerful presentation about civil rights struggles in Nashville
Tennessee was the conflict between college students, their families and
the colleges that they attended. Students felt a strong need to protest
and challenge. Their parents and colleges often vigorously opposed
their efforts. Fortunately the students, with great courage,
persisted. They thought carefully about the consequences of their
actions, and spoke out for civil rights that too often we now take for
granted.

We should not always equate schooling and learning. There is a lot to
be learned and accomplished outside a school building (whether at the
k-12, or higher ed level).

Sincerely

Joe Nathan
Center for School Change
Humphrey Institute
University of Minnesota

Steve Kotvis wrote:
> It's my belief that impeachment is not about who won or lost. It's about if
> our administration (I didn't vote for them either, but since they won, it is
> "ours") is breaking the law of the land, and that they are not above it.
> Because someone won doesn't give them the right to break our laws. Separate
> issues in my book.
> ________________________
> Steve Kotvis
> Kenwood Minneapolis
>
>
>
>> From:
>> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:57:49 -0600
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
>>
>> Like others, I'm with Kevin Wynn here.
>>
>> A kids job is to go to school. All else, to include jobs and sports
>> and activism, are extras. When one of the extras impacts going to
>> school, then something is wrong. These kids are truants, regardless of
>> the notes they get from their parents.
>>
>> As for the recruiters: they have a right to be in school as much as
>> anybody. Ed Felien chastises us for assuming that the students
>> couldn't come up with such a march idea on their own. But are not the
>> same students capable of rejecting a message from a prospective
>> employer with as much resolve? Banning recruiters, which is the
>> ultimate aim, is the typical liberal strategy: ban something we don't
>> like under the cloak of righteousness. Bans are in, often promoted by
>> people considering themselves free-thinkers (though bans are as
>> repressive a public policy tool as we have, but that's another
>> thread). Anyway, I would think that students who are so inspired and
>> enlightened as to take to the streets during school would have no
>> problem rejecting the message of military recruiters, and encouraging
>> their peers to do the same. without being threatened by their presence
>> in their school.
>>
>> And I sincerely hope that the students choosing truancy today realize
>> that military recruiters play a large role in their ability to
>> "march." The military, staffed through the work of recruiters,
>> ultimately protects their ability to assemble and speak. I have little
>> doubt that that is a lesson lost in the zeal to look all liberal and
>> trendy and neat-o, all whilst skipping class.
>>
>> And impeachment? Bush and Cheney won, folks. I didn't vote for them,
>> either. But please consider getting over it. If the impeachment folks
>> put as much effort into doing something tangible like adopting a
>> highway or patrolling a neighborhood or painting Dyna Sluyter's
>> house, things might actually begin to change, perhaps quickly. And Mr.
>> Cavlan's logic and commentary regarding elected is quite Bushesque: if
>> you're not against 'em, you're for 'em.
>>
>> We're going down the tubes.
>>
>> Mike Thompson
>> Windom
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Kevin Wynn :
>>
>>
>>> I don't find recruiting objectionable. Nor would you if
>>> you supported the military actions we are involved in.
>>> Just because one is opposed to the war in Iraq does not
>>> mean we do not a strong military. Just because we are not
>>> defending our borders does not mean we are not protecting
>>> our country.
>>>
>>> In fact, I have serious regrets that I did not serve in
>>> the military or in some similar capacity when I was
>>> younger. I will not discourage my children from talking
>>> to recruiters and serving our country if they choose to do
>>> so.
>>>
>>> What I see here is an effort to recruit youth into the
>>> anti-whatever activist movement. Create little protesters
>>> who can grow up into big protesters.
>>>
>>> In this respect Cavlan and his ilk are no better, and
>>> maybe worse, than military recruiters.
>>>
>>> You'll not find any support from me with your arguments
>>> Charley. The kids should be in school.
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin Wynn, Dad
>>> Minneapolis, MN
>>> 2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
>>> Northern Bikers for Global Warming
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:01 +1300 (NZDT)
>>> "Charley Underwood"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students,
>>>> minors, to leave school and attend this protest? What an
>>>> incredibly bad idea! I hope no children are injured."
>>>>
>>>> I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening
>>>> our Minneapolis schools to those who encourage children,
>>>> minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway place
>>>> where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
>>>> presence with such force that many of our children end up
>>>> dead and many more end up wounded for life, where they
>>>> witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
>>>> nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
>>>> medication.
>>>>
>>>> If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website
>>>> (http://www.yawr.org), you will find that many of their
>>>> efforts are against the pervasive military recruitment in
>>>> out public schools.
>>>>
>>>> So I ask you two questions:
>>>>
>>>> First, which do you think is the more dangerous
>>>> situation, protesting on the streets of Minneapolis or
>>>> attacking the streets of Fallujah?
>>>>
>>>> Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved
>>>> in both activities. Let us further assume that the brave
>>>> individual will sometimes need to take risks in order to
>>>> protest all of our freedoms. Don't you believe that
>>>> Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our
>>>> freedoms? Or do you truly believe that our freedoms are
>>>> only protected by killing those who disagree with our
>>>> foreign policy?
>>>>
>>>> I salute these idealistic youth. I hope nothing bad
>>>> happens to them at the hands of our local gendarmes. But
>>>> I truly believe that much, much worse will be happening
>>>> to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
>>>> squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the
>>>> horrible cancer of war that is growing within us.
>>>>
>>>> Charley Underwood
>>>> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
>>>> Info about Charley Underwood:
>>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood
>>>>
>>>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
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>>>>
>>> Kevin Wynn
>>> Audubon Park, NE Minneapolis
>>> Info about Kevin Wynn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/kevinwynn
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>>
>>
>> Michael Thompson
>> Windom, Minneapolis
>> Info about Michael Thompson:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/michaelthompson
>>
>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6W7GzGYNKZDTzpTwgSzj3f
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>
>
> Steve Kotvis
>
> Info about Steve Kotvis: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/stevekotvis
>
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>


Joe Nathan
Highland Park, St Paul
Info about Joe Nathan: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/joenathan

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From: Mark Snyder Date: 2007 Nov 14 22:31 UTC Short link

Actually, YAWR was started in 2004 when three high school members of Socialist
Alternative started to organize against military recruiters at Kennedy High in
Bloomington.

Ty Moore is an organizer for Socialist Alternative, so I wouldn't be surprised
if he played some role in advising them.

People can learn more about YAWR at http://www.yawr.org/

For those who are supportive of what YAWR is doing, you might want to check out
the spaghetti dinner fundraiser they are holding on December 1st.

Mark Snyder
Windom Park

From: Jessica Wicks Date: 2007 Nov 14 23:15 UTC Short link

Well I don't know. I am very comfortable with European style
socialism myself,though most spit the word out. But for a little
history, I had read Das Kapital and many of the works of Lenin by the
time I was 14. I began inquiring by the time I was 12. That would
have been 1959. We were in the middle of the great Red Scare and I
wanted to understand what the big deal was. I rejected communism, but
then that is but one form of socialism. So why do people always
equate it with the most radical and violent form? Perhaps for the
same reasons that Muslims get pigeonholed in our intolerant age. For
the record, I also researched Jefferson and Locke and others to try
to make sense of all the irrational jabbering of that time.

The capitalization of "Socialist" as well as all caps RADICAL belies
assumptions that just simply are not true. One can be socialist and
totally democratic, and opposition to this war is not radical at all
unless you are ready to assume that the majority of people in this
country are radical. You know last time there was a student protest,
the son of one of the leaders of my church went to his parents,
explained what he planned to do. They discussed consequences, and the
basis for his feelings regarding the war. After knowing he
understood  the ramifications of his actions, they sent him on with
their blessings and their support.

Anyway, I would be hesitant to talk about this young man unless you
have an understanding of just what he has been vocal about. It seems
terribly unfair to have him painted with such a broad brush when he
can't even respond.

Peace;

Jessi (Jessica Wicks)
Sheridan, NE Mpls

"A mind is like a parachute. It doesnt work if it's not open."

~Frank Zappa