Lt. Robert Kroll, white supremacist head of the Mpls Police Federation

Do you think we should be concerned?

https://twincitiesgdc.org/2015/11/29/kroll-report/
<https://twincitiesgdc.org/2015/11/29/kroll-report/>

http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/police-leader-who-smeared-black-lives-matter-terrorists-tied-white-power-linked#.V4Yt-ZQLDnI.facebook
<http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/police-leader-who-smeared-black-lives-matter-terrorists-tied-white-power-linked#.V4Yt-ZQLDnI.facebook>

http://southsidepride.com/the-new-nazi-order/
<http://southsidepride.com/the-new-nazi-order/>

or, should just rest our weary heads in the sand?

This is an excellent piece. I believe that our statement and position in the
last Mayors race was correct. We should ask people running for election to not
seek or accept police federation support and endorsement. Who created this
piece?

David Tilsen
612-281-8576 mobile
612-823-8169 land line
Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 13, 2016, at 7:22 AM, Ed Felien <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> Do you think we should be concerned?
>
> https://twincitiesgdc.org/2015/11/29/kroll-report/
<https://twincitiesgdc.org/2015/11/29/kroll-report/>
>
>
http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/police-leader-who-smeared-black-lives-matter-terrorists-tied-white-power-linked#.V4Yt-ZQLDnI.facebook
<http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/police-leader-who-smeared-black-lives-matter-terrorists-tied-white-power-linked#.V4Yt-ZQLDnI.facebook>
>
> http://southsidepride.com/the-new-nazi-order/
<http://southsidepride.com/the-new-nazi-order/>
>
>
> or, should just rest our weary heads in the sand?
>
> Ed Felien
>
> About/contact Ed Felien: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/edfelien
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6uuT9lOalIbz3mBbgPGTRa

Rest of post

Ed,
Thank you so much for sharing these 3 links about the head of the Minneapolis
Police Federation that's been in the news lately. It really puts everything
into context. I'm sitting here shaking my head because I don't know what else
to say. Everyone should really take a look at what you've shared.
JenniferMinneapolis On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 7:41 AM, Dave Tilsen
<<email obscured>> wrote:

This is an excellent piece. I believe that our statement and position in the
last Mayors race was correct. We should ask people running for election to not
seek or accept police federation support and endorsement. Who created this
piece?

David Tilsen
612-281-8576 mobile
612-823-8169 land line
Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 13, 2016, at 7:22 AM, Ed Felien <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> Do you think we should be concerned?
>
> https://twincitiesgdc.org/2015/11/29/kroll-report/
<https://twincitiesgdc.org/2015/11/29/kroll-report/>
>
>
http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/police-leader-who-smeared-black-lives-matter-terrorists-tied-white-power-linked#.V4Yt-ZQLDnI.facebook
<http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/police-leader-who-smeared-black-lives-matter-terrorists-tied-white-power-linked#.V4Yt-ZQLDnI.facebook>
>
> http://southsidepride.com/the-new-nazi-order/
<http://southsidepride.com/the-new-nazi-order/>
>
>
> or, should just rest our weary heads in the sand?
>
> Ed Felien
>
> About/contact Ed Felien: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/edfelien
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6uuT9lOalIbz3mBbgPGTRa
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
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David Tilsen
Powderhorn, Minneapolis
About/contact David Tilsen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/davidtilsen

1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
<email obscured> before continuing it on the list.

2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.

Rest of post

Then there is the Cottage Grove cop, Adam Pelton, who started a petition in
Change.Org calling for Governor Dayton to immediately resign, because he
truthfully said that he believed that Philando Castile would not have been
killed if he was white and that his death was unacceptable.

Pelton's petition falsely states:

Petitioning Governor Mark Dayton
>
<https://www.change.org/p/the-immediate-resignation-of-governor-mark-dayton#delivered-to>
> immediate resignation of Governor Mark Dayton

In light of Governor Mark Dayton's irresponsible and inflammatory
> statements about Minnesota Police Officers he should immediately resign
> from public office. He called every Police Officer in the state of
> Minnesota racist on a national broadcast while commenting on an
> investigation that is only hours old.

https://www.change.org/p/the-immediate-resignation-of-governor-mark-dayton

Of course Governor Dayton said no such thing. He called no one a racist,
muchless every cop in Minnesota.

And we let idiots like Pelton run around our streets with guns.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 3:27 AM, Jennifer Gisslen Lee <
<email obscured>> wrote:

>
> Ed,
> Thank you so much for sharing these 3 links about the head of the
> Minneapolis Police Federation that's been in the news lately. It really
> puts everything into context. I'm sitting here shaking my head because I
> don't know what else to say. Everyone should really take a look at what
> you've shared.
> JenniferMinneapolis On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 7:41 AM, Dave Tilsen <
> <email obscured>> wrote:
>
>
> This is an excellent piece. I believe that our statement and position in
> the last Mayors race was correct. We should ask people running for
> election to not seek or accept police federation support and endorsement.
> Who created this piece?
>
> David Tilsen
> 612-281-8576 mobile
> 612-823-8169 land line
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jul 13, 2016, at 7:22 AM, Ed Felien <<email obscured>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Do you think we should be concerned?
> >
> > https://twincitiesgdc.org/2015/11/29/kroll-report/ <
> https://twincitiesgdc.org/2015/11/29/kroll-report/>
> >
> >
>
http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/police-leader-who-smeared-black-lives-matter-terrorists-tied-white-power-linked#.V4Yt-ZQLDnI.facebook
> <
>
http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/police-leader-who-smeared-black-lives-matter-terrorists-tied-white-power-linked#.V4Yt-ZQLDnI.facebook

Rest of post

Kroll has also made a jackass of himself in re the Lynx praising the officers
who walked off the job because of the t-shirts the Lynx team were wearing! Talk
about drinking the kool-aid.
Hair trigger when completely unnecessary. That makes me scared: and I
frightened for my life? Should I shoot to kill in response?

A minor correction to Wizard, and this only has to do with tense and spelling:

KKKroll is a jackass, and recently proved that for the umpteenth time by
praising the officers who walked off the job because of the innocuous t-shirts
the Lynx team wr
were wearing!

(I have no dispute with the rest of her message)

Some great information in the articles. The discussion should be a national
one and should include federal agencies as well.

Adam Pelton whining that he doesn't need people contacting his employer about
his petition is simply quite pathetic. This just shows that these sad little
people feel they should be able to say what they want, when they want, to
whomever they want, without any repercussions. The sense of entitlement just
oozes from their every word.

Police violence statistics

Being shared on Social media site -
https://www.facebook.com/chiefofpolicebillpartridge/videos/1703688743217499/

Marie Przynski, Phillips midtown

Former FBI Assistant Director Hosko and his views on BLM

http://www.breitbart.com/radio/2016/07/08/former-fbi-exec-ron-hosko-black-lives-matter-more-anti-cop-movement-than-saving-black-lives/

Marie Przynski, Phillips midtown

Rest of post

Statistics: Blacks = 13% of the population and 26% of the people killed by
police in 2015.

If you are black you are twice as likely to be killed by the police. That’s
racist. That needs to stop.

How about City residency for the police, so they don’t come in here from the
suburbs like an occupying army? And tell them to stop driving their SUV’s
through our parks like armored personnel carriers on a mission to search and
destroy.

Why don’t our elected officials stand up for us? The liberals that run our
City government love to point to Trump as an example of a racist and a fascist,
but they are enabling fascism at a local level with their complicity with the
racist neo-Nazi biker gang that runs our police department. Here’s what a
lawyer suing Kroll for creating a hateful work environment for black police
officers said about his biker gang, City Heat, “Several organizations, such as
the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center, confirmed for
us that photos on the City Heat Web site showed numerous individuals displaying
symbols of the KKK and neo-Nazi hate groups, along with the Confederate flag,
nooses, ‘Proud to be White’ and ‘Are you here for the hanging’ patches,”
http://www.twincities.com/2009/01/10/ruben-rosario-cops-off-duty-club-questioned-in-lawsuit/
<http://www.twincities.com/2009/01/10/ruben-rosario-cops-off-duty-club-questioned-in-lawsuit/>

I am concerned about fascism at a national level, but I am more concerned about
fascism in my home town, in my police department. Our taxes are being used to
hire neo-Nazis to kill Terrance Franklin, Jamar Clark and Philando Castile.
Hitler did not create fascism or Nazism from the top down. Yes, it was
authoritarian. But it was built from the ground up. It began in the local
German police departments.

From The Holocaust Museum, Encyclopedia:
“The Nazi state in fact alleviated many of the frustrations the police
experienced in the Weimar Republic. The Nazis shielded the police from public
criticism by censoring the press. They ended street fighting by eliminating the
Communist threat. Police manpower was even extended by the incorporation of
Nazi paramilitary organizations as auxiliary policemen. The Nazis centralized
and fully funded the police to better combat criminal gangs and promote state
security. The Nazi state increased staff and training, and modernized police
equipment. The Nazis offered the police the broadest latitude in arrests,
incarceration, and the treatment of prisoners. The police moved to take
‘preventive action,’ that is, to make arrests without the evidence required for
a conviction in court and indeed without court supervision at all.
“Conservative policemen were initially satisfied with the results of their
cooperation with the Nazi state. Crime did indeed go down and the operation of
criminal gangs ended. Order was restored. But there was a price. The Nazi state
was not a restoration of the imperial tradition. It was at its core thoroughly
racist. The Nazis took control and transformed the traditional police forces of
the Weimar Republic into an instrument of state repression and, eventually, of
genocide.
“The Nazi state fused the police with the SS and Security Service
(Sicherheitsdienst; SD), two of the most radical and ideologically committed
Nazi organizations. Heinrich Himmler, head of the SS, also became the chief of
all German police forces. His associate, Reinhard Heydrich of the SD, became at
the same time the head of the Security Police, charged with safeguarding the
Nazi regime. Nazi ideology became part of all police activities. The police
were central figures not just in maintaining public order, but in combating the
so-called racial enemies designated by the Nazi state. It was in this context
that ‘preventive police action’ took on such terrible consequences. The SS, SD,
and police were the primary perpetrators of the Holocaust.”

We must demand that our City officials stand up to these racist thugs.

Rest of post

A white supremacist is, by definition, a thoroughly insecure person. Insecurity
is the base line mind set of a bully. Armies and police departments provide a
beacon for bullies, they get a badge which allows them more latitude in more
situations. Now hand that bully a gun and, Bob's your uncle, you've got a stew
of mean and nasty in a uniform. And, of course, since no one else wants to be
around them, they hang with each other. All they need is some mouthy insecurity
on two legs, they've got a leader and they become a rude, crude, and
unattractive mob. Does Donald Trump come to mind?

I'm going to step right in here and say that there are important American
rights involved with a so-called biker gang that you all say Kroll belongs
to: freedom of assembly and freedom of speech. Don't tread on them, to your
own peril.

Kroll has the right to assemble with like-minded folk, as long as they
don't break the law. Kroll and his apparent buddies have the right to say
anything they want (short of overt threats to officials or others), and
even be racist to the core, explicitly. That is their right, under the
Constitution's first amendment.

Our rights are threatened by people who want to prevent ugly speech from
being said or tolerated. You have to tolerate it, though. Hard as that is,
unless you, too, want to turn into a Nazi.

What's the first thing the Nazis did? Censor speech (oral or written) and
then censor or prohibit certain groups from gathering (Commies, at first).
That kind of response is what worries me in Donald Trump: he wants his
rights as an arrogant white billoionaire but he wants to censor or
eliminate your rights.

I'm not a fan of Kroll or his friends. But I'd hate to live in a
Minneapolis where on his off-time, he isn't allowed to associate with pond
scum if he wants to, and even echo their verbal burps if he wants to. Ick.
But it's his right under our Constitution, and in my view that right is so
much more important than any right to carry a weapon that we have to call
even nice people like Ed Felien on his trampling of it.

Connie Sullivan
Como, in southeast Minneapolis

It may be his right to say and do whatever he wants within the law
based on the 1st amendment, but we, taxpayers, don't have to pay him a
salary. He doesn't have a right to be racist in his job.

Karlie

On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Constance Sullivan <<email obscured>> wrote:
> I'm going to step right in here and say that there are important American
> rights involved with a so-called biker gang that you all say Kroll belongs
> to: freedom of assembly and freedom of speech. Don't tread on them, to your
> own peril.
>
> Kroll has the right to assemble with like-minded folk, as long as they
> don't break the law. Kroll and his apparent buddies have the right to say
> anything they want (short of overt threats to officials or others), and
> even be racist to the core, explicitly. That is their right, under the
> Constitution's first amendment.
>
> Our rights are threatened by people who want to prevent ugly speech from
> being said or tolerated. You have to tolerate it, though. Hard as that is,
> unless you, too, want to turn into a Nazi.
>
> What's the first thing the Nazis did? Censor speech (oral or written) and
> then censor or prohibit certain groups from gathering (Commies, at first).
> That kind of response is what worries me in Donald Trump: he wants his
> rights as an arrogant white billoionaire but he wants to censor or
> eliminate your rights.
>
> I'm not a fan of Kroll or his friends. But I'd hate to live in a
> Minneapolis where on his off-time, he isn't allowed to associate with pond
> scum if he wants to, and even echo their verbal burps if he wants to. Ick.
> But it's his right under our Constitution, and in my view that right is so
> much more important than any right to carry a weapon that we have to call
> even nice people like Ed Felien on his trampling of it.
>
> Connie Sullivan
> Como, in southeast Minneapolis
>
>
> Connie Sullivan
> Southeast Como, Minneapolis
> About/contact Connie Sullivan: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/conniesullivan
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2Do6b1dsKCto5JCspzW2z6

Rest of post

A majority of police choose to live outside the city. Maple Grove and Shakopee
are two communities with high concentrations of Minneapolis officers. It is
true that police tend to socialize with their peers. I surmise that many feel
that they are undervalued and that only their peers know the terrible things
they face every day. However, Bureau of Labor statistics show that police are
in eleventh place for mortality on the job..... behind pizza delivery drivers,
cab drivers, garbage men and bartenders. Police die mostly as a result of car
accidents.

There is a legal precedent for the right of police to live where they choose.
It has been determined in the Supreme Court that police can not be ordered to
live where they work. Police also don't continuously work in the same area. In
fact, problem cops are moved around by the police department, rather than
dealing directly with their "misbehavior". Continuing to argue that they need
to live where they work is not realistic.

I don't want to be the one who tries to "socialize" police. I've noticed a
trend toward "exaggerated politeness" in officers, as in extreme sarcasm. This
seems to be a way to get around some of the new standards set by the police
department in dealing with "implicit bias". This focus is absurd when the
"explicit bias" of killing people for no reason is not being addressed. If you
want to learn more about this behavior you can read edited versions of
complaints submitted to the Office of Police Conduct Review online at:
http://minneapolismn.gov/civilrights/conductcomm/cases/index.htm

Janet Nye
Phillips

Rest of post

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Felien <<email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>
Cc: Forum Mpls Issues <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Mpls] Lt. Robert Kroll, white supremacist head of the Mpls Police
Federation

Statistics: Blacks = 13% of the population and 26% of the people killed by
police in 2015.

If you are black you are twice as likely to be killed by the police. That’s
racist. That needs to stop.

How about City residency for the police, so they don’t come in here from the
suburbs like an occupying army? And tell them to stop driving their SUV’s
through our parks like armored personnel carriers on a mission to search and
destroy.

Why don’t our elected officials stand up for us? The liberals that run our
City government love to point to Trump as an example of a racist and a fascist,
but they are enabling fascism at a local level with their complicity with the
racist neo-Nazi biker gang that runs our police department. Here’s what a
lawyer suing Kroll for creating a hateful work environment for black police
officers said about his biker gang, City Heat, “Several organizations, such as
the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center, confirmed for
us that photos on the City Heat Web site showed numerous individuals displaying
symbols of the KKK and neo-Nazi hate groups, along with the Confederate flag,
nooses, ‘Proud to be White’ and ‘Are you here for the hanging’ patches,”
http://www.twincities.com/2009/01/10/ruben-rosario-cops-off-duty-club-questioned-in-lawsuit/
<http://www.twincities.com/2009/01/10/ruben-rosario-cops-off-duty-club-questioned-in-lawsuit/>

I am concerned about fascism at a national level, but I am more concerned about
fascism in my home town, in my police department. Our taxes are being used to
hire neo-Nazis to kill Terrance Franklin, Jamar Clark and Philando Castile.
Hitler did not create fascism or Nazism from the top down. Yes, it was
authoritarian. But it was built from the ground up. It began in the local
German police departments.

>From The Holocaust Museum, Encyclopedia:
“The Nazi state in fact alleviated many of the frustrations the police
experienced in the Weimar Republic. The Nazis shielded the police from public
criticism by censoring the press. They ended street fighting by eliminating the
Communist threat. Police manpower was even extended by the incorporation of
Nazi paramilitary organizations as auxiliary policemen. The Nazis centralized
and fully funded the police to better combat criminal gangs and promote state
security. The Nazi state increased staff and training, and modernized police
equipment. The Nazis offered the police the broadest latitude in arrests,
incarceration, and the treatment of prisoners. The police moved to take
‘preventive action,’ that is, to make arrests without the evidence required for
a conviction in court and indeed without court supervision at all.
“Conservative policemen were initially satisfied with the results of their
cooperation with the Nazi state. Crime did indeed go down and the operation of
criminal gangs ended. Order was restored. But there was a price. The Nazi state
was not a restoration of the imperial tradition. It was at its core thoroughly
racist. The Nazis took control and transformed the traditional police forces of
the Weimar Republic into an instrument of state repression and, eventually, of
genocide.
“The Nazi state fused the police with the SS and Security Service
(Sicherheitsdienst; SD), two of the most radical and ideologically committed
Nazi organizations. Heinrich Himmler, head of the SS, also became the chief of
all German police forces. His associate, Reinhard Heydrich of the SD, became at
the same time the head of the Security Police, charged with safeguarding the
Nazi regime. Nazi ideology became part of all police activities. The police
were central figures not just in maintaining public order, but in combating the
so-called racial enemies designated by the Nazi state. It was in this context
that ‘preventive police action’ took on such terrible consequences. The SS, SD,
and police were the primary perpetrators of the Holocaust.”

We must demand that our City officials stand up to these racist thugs.

> On Jul 15, 2016, at 11:07 PM, <email obscured> wrote:
>
> Former FBI Assistant Director Hosko and his views on BLM
>
>
http://www.breitbart.com/radio/2016/07/08/former-fbi-exec-ron-hosko-black-lives-matter-more-anti-cop-movement-than-saving-black-lives/
>
> Marie Przynski, Phillips midtown
>
>
>
>
>
> Marie Przynski
> Phillips Midtown, Minneapolis
> About/contact Marie Przynski: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/marieprzynski1
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6HovzKdM31rNIy80Iino38
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
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> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
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>
>
>
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Ed Felien

About/contact Ed Felien: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/edfelien

1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
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------------------------
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I agree, Connie, Kroll has every right to be a thoroughgoing racist white
supremacist and hang with like-minded others. And.not every police officer is
like that, thank god.

But since all humans are clearly members of the same species and, as proven by
Mary Leaky,the Human Genome Project, and tons of others, and since we all
poured out of the Olduvai Gorge a zillion years ago, I'll never understand how
a person can become and promote supremacy.

To me real supremacy is Shakespeare, Marie Curie, ya know, talent and
knowledge, a green thumb, a great mechanic, a dynamite librarian. But believing
your superior just for breathing in and out shows a lack of brains and
imagination, making him/her a dull person indeed.

But putting that type of person in charge of anything, let alone a badge and
gun, seems to me to be quite mad.

I'll add that KKKroll has every right to express his opinions. Everyone else
also has the right to criticize them. Especially since he has a position of
power.

On 7/16/2016 12:56 PM, Janet Nye wrote:
> There is a legal precedent for the right of police to live where they choose.
It has been determined in the Supreme Court that police can not be ordered to
live where they work. Police also don't continuously work in the same area.
= = = = =
[KB] I'm pretty sure the point people make about "live where they work"
is in the city that employs them, not in the area where they're assigned
at any particular time.

Rest of post

I'd be more than willing to give the cops, firemen and other emergency
responders ZERO property tax if they'd move into town. Any other incentive
would be just dandy. Whatever it takes.)

We have a MPD officer living in SE Como and frankly, I find that
reassuring. I like seeing that car parked on the street and feel more
secure that someone lives nearby who isn't going to run away if a disaster
happens. (coming to you from a BNSF RR oil train n'hood, I am)

(I'm looking at you Jacob, Cam and Kevin.)

Rest of post

I agree with Connie Sullivan that Kroll has the right to be a racist and to
express this off the job with his cronies and with those who elected him to
lead the Police Federation. However, I agree also with Karlie Cole that he
doesn't belong on the payroll. Not much we can do about it because he was
elected by a majority of police in the federation. It is alarming that the vast
majority of officers support this racist person in a position of authority.

This unacceptable attitude among officers is expressed in complaints received
by the Office of Police Conduct Review. None have been sustained. The people
apparently complain frivolously. A more recent twist on complaints about
unpleasant interactions with police come under the head of "sarcasm", where a
person asks a question or makes a comment about disrespectful interactions on
the part of police and are told by an officer that "I feel your pain." That is
almost more provocative than straight out racial epithets because it is
dishonest and impossible to respond to.

Janet Nye
Phillips

Rest of post

----- Original Message -----
From: Karlie Cole <<email obscured>>
To: Constance Sullivan <<email obscured>>
Cc: mpls <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Mpls] Lt. Robert Kroll, white supremacist head of the Mpls Police
Federation

It may be his right to say and do whatever he wants within the law
based on the 1st amendment, but we, taxpayers, don't have to pay him a
salary. He doesn't have a right to be racist in his job.

Karlie

On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Constance Sullivan <<email obscured>> wrote:
> I'm going to step right in here and say that there are important American
> rights involved with a so-called biker gang that you all say Kroll belongs
> to: freedom of assembly and freedom of speech. Don't tread on them, to your
> own peril.
>
> Kroll has the right to assemble with like-minded folk, as long as they
> don't break the law. Kroll and his apparent buddies have the right to say
> anything they want (short of overt threats to officials or others), and
> even be racist to the core, explicitly. That is their right, under the
> Constitution's first amendment.
>
> Our rights are threatened by people who want to prevent ugly speech from
> being said or tolerated. You have to tolerate it, though. Hard as that is,
> unless you, too, want to turn into a Nazi.
>
> What's the first thing the Nazis did? Censor speech (oral or written) and
> then censor or prohibit certain groups from gathering (Commies, at first).
> That kind of response is what worries me in Donald Trump: he wants his
> rights as an arrogant white billoionaire but he wants to censor or
> eliminate your rights.
>
> I'm not a fan of Kroll or his friends. But I'd hate to live in a
> Minneapolis where on his off-time, he isn't allowed to associate with pond
> scum if he wants to, and even echo their verbal burps if he wants to. Ick.
> But it's his right under our Constitution, and in my view that right is so
> much more important than any right to carry a weapon that we have to call
> even nice people like Ed Felien on his trampling of it.
>
> Connie Sullivan
> Como, in southeast Minneapolis
>
>
> Connie Sullivan
> Southeast Como, Minneapolis
> About/contact Connie Sullivan: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/conniesullivan
>
>
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> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
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Karlie Cole
Kingfield, Minneapolis
About/contact Karlie Cole:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1DO1MLS53qoSEm7Tnf6sqY

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If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
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2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.

------------------------
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There are two threads on this subject that I find nearly identical. I'll try
to be specific here.

Does Bob Kroll have the right to be a racist? As long as he isn't breaking any
laws, yes.

Does a Minneapolis Police Officer have the right to express racist views,
threaten reporters, retaliate against any public criticism with threats of
lawsuits, arrest or violence? Does a Minneapolis Police Officer have the right
to Publicly disobey the police chief or the mayor, who is essentially the
"Commander in Chief" of the police force, or publicly criticize them in the
media?

Based on everything I've read in the charter, the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and
what I know of the city's contract with the Police Federation, the answer is
no.

It would seem that there's enough to get rid of Kroll based on his previous
record, but that may not be enough to override the arbitration process. Based
on the statements he's made in the media and interviews I've heard with him, he
seems to be someone who needlessly creates conflict and looks for a fight.

Still, I think the deeper issue is the city's contract with the Police
Federation. It needs to be renegotiated and a mechanism needs to be put in
place so that the city's political leadership - and by extension city
residents, to initiate REAL disciplinary action against out of control cops, of
which there are too many on the MPD.

Any other group of professionals are usually receptive to constructive
criticism. The MPD seems to be made up of a lot of bullies who can dish it
out, but can't take it.

As for Kroll himself, he seems to have more of a Right Wing political agenda
than actual concern for the MPF members which he supposedly represents.

Tamir begins to get at the real problem with Lt. Robert Kroll.

There is no leadership to direct the MPD and, as a result, a racist neo-Nazi
biker gang is running the department. The Mayor and the Chief need to step up
and exercise leadership. If they did, then bad cops would be disciplined and
dismissed.

There is a campaign to require the MPD to carry liability insurance.
Unfortunately, this is needed because we need an insurance company to
discipline the cops by fining them through raising their premiums, because the
Mayor and Chief can’t run the department. If the Mayor and Chief did their
jobs we wouldn’t need the insurance.

Kroll is the visible head of the Police Department. He “settled” the
controversy over the Lynx walkout. Two cops walked out of a security detail to
cover the Lynx game—they broke a contract while wearing the uniform of the
Minneapolis Police Department. They were not disciplined for their action,
but, instead, Kroll negotiated a settlement agreeable to both sides (presumably
by limiting the Lynx players’ First Amendment rights) and allowing the officers
to go back to a cushy off-duty overtime gig. And Kroll comes out looking like
a peacemaker. What a sad commentary on the lack of leadership and discipline
necessary to direct some angry white guys with guns who are mad at Black Lives
Matter.

The Chief allowed Ringgenberg and Schwarze 48 hours to talk to each other and
get legal advice as to the safest statement to make to investigators about
their killing of Jamar Clark. They were both careful to stress they were
afraid, and, thereby, legally allowed to take Clark’s life. Don’t you wonder
what Ringgenberg and Schwarze would have said to an investigator immediately
after the killing before they had a chance to talk to each other? Why are they
treated differently than other homicide suspects? If Tamir or I kill someone,
we are not allowed 48 hours to go home and think up a good reason for why we
did it. This “48 hours” grace period is not in an ordinance. It is not even
part of the contract between the police and the City. This is the policy of
the Chief. She determined that the boys in blue should take a couple of days
off, have a few beers and a couple of laughs, and, then, when they’re more
relaxed, they should explain what happened. There needs to be a public
statement from the Mayor and the Chief that this will not happen again. “Equal
protection under the law” means no special treatment for anybody. The Mayor,
the Chief and the officers are all required to take an oath to uphold the
Constitution, and the only part of that document that really matters is the
part that says we’re all equal. No group gets special treatment.

And, while we’re at it, why did that Tactical Squad unit get 48 hours to come
up with a fairy tale version of how they killed Terrance Franklin?

That policy must change immediately, and the Mayor and the Chief owe everyone,
but especially the families of Jamar Clark and Terrance Franklin, a sincere
apology.

Rest of post

> On Jul 18, 2016, at 12:10 PM, Tamir Nolley <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> There are two threads on this subject that I find nearly identical. I'll try
to be specific here.
>
> Does Bob Kroll have the right to be a racist? As long as he isn't breaking
any laws, yes.
>
> Does a Minneapolis Police Officer have the right to express racist views,
threaten reporters, retaliate against any public criticism with threats of
lawsuits, arrest or violence? Does a Minneapolis Police Officer have the right
to Publicly disobey the police chief or the mayor, who is essentially the
"Commander in Chief" of the police force, or publicly criticize them in the
media?
>
> Based on everything I've read in the charter, the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and
what I know of the city's contract with the Police Federation, the answer is
no.
>
> It would seem that there's enough to get rid of Kroll based on his previous
record, but that may not be enough to override the arbitration process. Based
on the statements he's made in the media and interviews I've heard with him, he
seems to be someone who needlessly creates conflict and looks for a fight.
>
> Still, I think the deeper issue is the city's contract with the Police
Federation. It needs to be renegotiated and a mechanism needs to be put in
place so that the city's political leadership - and by extension city
residents, to initiate REAL disciplinary action against out of control cops, of
which there are too many on the MPD.
>
> Any other group of professionals are usually receptive to constructive
criticism. The MPD seems to be made up of a lot of bullies who can dish it
out, but can't take it.
>
> As for Kroll himself, he seems to have more of a Right Wing political agenda
than actual concern for the MPF members which he supposedly represents.
>
> Tamir Nolley
> MInneapolis
> About/contact Tamir Nolley: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/tamirnolley
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4ZW20q738eQToHu6xGDz04

This thread, including its title, has repeated violations of the civility rules
of the forum and at least one instance of a violation of promoting
unsubstantiated rumors (rules 2.4 and 2.7, respectively). Referring to someone
as a "White supremacist", "neo Nazi", "racist", etc. is name calling in case
you are wondering.

I have issued formal warnings and will continue to do so if the rules are
violated. Unfortunately, I have no way to change the heading of a thread or I
would. What is in within my power is to react more quickly to the rules
violations. I am sorry I did not.

There is some solid content in this thread. I hope those elements of the
discussion continue. I equally hope those who feel they must stoop to name
calling to make their point stop it. If they don't, I will be forced to take
further action. Regardless of the rules, name calling takes away from the point
one is trying to make.

If you want to discuss the violations further or are not sure what name calling
is please contact me directly and *offlist* at mattp AT pobox DOT com.

Matt Perry
Forum Manager

Tamir brings up the union contract Minneapolis has with the Police
Federation as a real source of problems with bullying cops and the way our
police keep protecting each other after bad interactions with the
citizenry, rather than going after the truth of investigations that may
pinpoint bad cop actions.

I'd like some information about who, exactly, negotiates FOR MINNEAPOLIS
when the police union contract comes up. And when does that contract get
renewed? Can the city do better?

For a city with Minneapolis's long history of successfully beating back
unionizing efforts in the private sector, I am perplexed by our city's
apparent inability to get a union contract that lets the Chief effectively
discipline officers, and have control of the police force in general. It
worries me that our police have a fierce "us versus them" attitude toward
the city's administration and its citizens, and I wonder why the city can't
control that.

Does it take being willing to let the police force go on strike, to get a
decent contract? Can we do that, legally? What other possible leverage does
Minneapolis have in negotiating a better contract with the Police
Federation? Is there some way Minneapolis can forestall the bad effects of
a police officer strike, by hiring "scabs" from other departments, the way
Allina just did with their hospital nurses who went on strike a month or so
ago?

Our police union is a strange, belligerant entity; it's not just its
current spokesman Kroll, it was his predecessor Delmonico, as well.
Outspoken, defensive, aggressively asserting that no Minneapolis cop ever
made the slightest mistake, much less a conscious misstep.

Can we remove the contract as a cause of difficulties, so we can go after
the rest of the problems?

Connie Sullivan
Como, in Southeast Minneapolis

The way, and perhaps not an option in Mpls., is to get rid of the police
department and contract with another municipality for police protection. (Now
that's a tricky proposition.) I kinda doubt it would work with of 900+
officers, but, theoretically, it could be an option.

What I kinda think is that the average Mpls. officer does not agree with the
union, but has sense enough to keep his/her yap shut about any quibbles, as
self-protection is key. At the same time, I'll bet there are many officers who
try to keep as much distance as possible from the union and, instead, do their
jobs to the best of their ability.

What I want to see is, yes, a better police department with a lot less sturm
und drang and every officer going home at night (or in the morning) whole.

Timely news about Lt. Kroll:
http://www.kare11.com/news/harteau-orders-kroll-to-stop-wearing-uniform/276139712.

Chuck Turchick
Phillips

On 7/18/2016 3:47 PM, Constance Sullivan wrote:
> Does it take being willing to let the police force go on strike, to get a
> decent contract?
= = = = =
[KB] MPD officers are prohibited by law from striking if they're licensed.

- Licensed police officers are essential employees. Minn. Stat.
179A.03, subd. 7 (https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes?id=179A.03)

- "Essential employees may not strike." Minn. State 179A.18, subd.
1 (https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes?id=179A.18)

Rest of post

I just saw Kroll interviewed on channel 11 wearing a plain blue t-shirt. It was
about the change in policy on bench warrant arrests.

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Lt. Robert Kroll, white supremacist head of the Mpls Police Federation

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