All posts in the topic Does Quarry need a Residents' Association? (Short link)
Summary
- There are 56 posts — by 16 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Stephanie Jenkins at Nov 30 16:28 UTC
I was talking to a neighbour of mine in Trinity Road yesterday and she agreed
with me that Quarry needs a residents' association. There is, of course, the
Friends of Quarry group but that is not the same thing at all. Its objective is
long-term conservation and a few nostalgia events.
At the AGM on Wednesday 12th November it was noticeable that at least half a
dozen people raised questions that were not on the official agenda, relating to
matters such as flooding, traffic, tree conservation, etc Some of these people
were quite angry - one man said that "bugger-all " had been done to improve a
certain problem, another was critical of the cost-effectiveness of the Area
Committees. A Council official gave a long lecture on tree legislation,
assisted by diagrams nobody could read, and a woman behind me got up and
interrupted him to ask about flooding. She was asked to sit down, and the
chairman kept telling us that we must keep to the agenda...
An elderly man asked how he could apply for permission to prune a tree, and was
told to go and look at the website. It did not occur to the Council official
that a man of that age might not have a computer, and might not understand how
to consult a website. Why not just give him the telephone number of the Tree
department?
Community problems and matters relating to the City or County council are
really the concern of a residents' association, not a Friends group. The sad
fact is that most people never approach their local councillors about anything
and have only the vaguest idea how to do so.
In reply to a very interesting, and highly informative post by julia I would
like to say that some of the points and issues she raised could be covered by a
revived Civil Parish Council, I have been trying to set up a face to face
meeting with the Chief Executive of Oxford City Council in order to discuss
this very issue, so far without much luck sadly, on a connected issue I have a
question which is to do with local Headington history, I am hoping that
Stephanie may be able to help with this one, Stephanie do you know anything
about the ancient arms of Headington, the original crest shield of Headington?
I found an entry for this on the internet.
Where on the internet was the entry about an "original crest shield of Headington"? I have never heard of Headington having any ancient arms: small villages don’t generally have them. The Lords of the Manor would have had their own family arms. The surname Headington or Heddington appears to have a crest (or at least there is one for sale). But the family would have acquired the name after leaving the village, and the arms subsequently. This page has information about the Headington surname but no picture: http://www.4crests.com/headington-coat-of-arms.html while this page has a picture of the “Headington crest”, which appears to include a red St George’s cross: http://www.4crests.com/headington-family-crest-coat-arms.html As for Julia's point, I also think it is hard for people without computers to keep in touch. Details of city councillors' surgeries each month can be found here: http://www.oxford.gov.uk/council/surgeries.cfm -- but are they advertised on local notice boards?
In reply to stephanie's post on the subject of Councillors constituency
surgeries far as I know mostly they tend to put the dates on party political
news sheets that get put through peoples letterboxes, I know that the North
East Area Committee meeting dates are advertised on the local noticeboards in
Headington, but I have never seen the same done with Councillors Surgeries
dates. They may very well be advertised in local Community Centres, I know
Andrew Smith, Oxford East MP, does this.
On the subject of the Crest Shield I saw it on the same website you quote
above, any chance we could buy it?, and if so I wonder how much they would want
for it.
nicholas wrote:
> On the subject of the Crest Shield I saw it on the same website you quote
> above, any chance we could buy it?, and if so I wonder how much they would
> want for it.
Us Family Historians are familiar with these sites: they are a huge con! I
have just entered the name "Tinkywinky" -- I can have the crest/coat of arms
for $49 US! I did not "go to checkout", and neither should you.
Joan Williams
It's heartening to know that folk are trying to find out when councillors' surgeries are! One of the reasons I became a librarian was to try and ensure that people without access to IT were not effectively disempowered from finding out the information they need. The points raised by Nick and Stephanie are well made, information about council meetings is not always readily available in forms other than on web pages, and it is sometimes liable to change, like the planning meeting for the North East Area Committee on Thursday 20 not Thursday 27 November. One one occasion recently, there were two different venues advertised for the South East Area Committee meeting at which Cllr Hudspeth was due to give a talk on the 20 mph limit, I emailed him to let him know the change of venue when I realised there had been a mistake, and he ended up in Rose Hill (the right place) but his County officer ended up in Blackbird Leys. Councillors generally correspond with each other and with council officers by email, and I think it would be virtually impossible to be an effective councillor nowadays without IT access. Electronic communication is much faster, so we can get things done more quickly. Councillors also use text messaging quite a lot between ourselves. Regarding surgeries, those for Headington Ward are promoted on the Headington councillors' website http://headingtonlibdems.org.uk and we leaflet surrounding roads when we are doing street surgeries. We also send out notices for Headington noticeboards, and display the dates/times in Bury Knowle Library. I post up the surgeries on the Oxford Mail's events site. I do however hold my hand up and apologise that the dates set for our surgeries are often made very late, there are genuine reasons for this but nonetheless, this is something I personally need to improve on. The casework I get is probably 70% by email, 20% talking to people on doorsteps or at meetings and 10% by phone. I have received so little casework by letter that it probably isn't recordable as most of it is thank you letters (mainly from elderly residents). David and I are unable to hold surgeries in Council-owned properties in our ward for free, as there are none! So every time we hold a surgery in a hall, we have to pay the going rate for it out of our own pockets. Would you consider coming along to our surgeries if we held an open session in local pubs or, dare I say, coffee shops? I'd be interested in your views. (Clearly we wouldn't organise this without talking to the managers concerned!)
On the original point about Quarry and starting a Residents Association I was
wondering whether people knew about the existence of the Bradley and Gladstone
Tennants and Residents Association who have one notice board in Gladstone Road
outside the supermarket, and another in Barton Road outside the Recreation
Ground both of which are painted blue, so you can't miss them. I believe they
hold meetings in Colemans Hill Flats complex, although I am not sure exactly
what area of Headington they cover.
I fully intend to continue with efforts to put in place a Civil Parish Council
for Headington, I would love to hear from anyone who is of like mind on this
one, and who would like to help with this project.
Thank you, that is definitely worth investigating. I will go and see whether
residents of Trinity Road and this little neighbourhood are eligible to join
the Gladstone Road residents' association.
It is definitely true that over-reliance on e-mail excludes the older
generation, and I know people only in their early fifties who rarely use it and
don't feel comfortable with it, despite professional training courses etc.
People in their sixties or seventies may be at a complete loss to cope with it.
Are councillors' surgeries displayed on noticeboards or announced on local
radio?
A man at the recent Friends of Quarry Meeting put the view that Area Committees
are simply a way of spending the maximum amount of money while achieving the
minimum outcome. Having looked a little bit at how they work, I am not
surprised that Oxford City Council was judged to be a Poor Value local council
by the independent assessment.
I am sure that everyone would be glad to hear from Julia, or anyone else,
any positive suggestions on how the working of Area Committees and their
cost effectiveness might be improved.
Tony Joyce.
On 16/11/08 20:26, "Julia Gasper" <uppermordent@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you, that is definitely worth investigating. I will go and see whether
> residents of Trinity Road and this little neighbourhood are eligible to join
> the Gladstone Road residents' association.
> It is definitely true that over-reliance on e-mail excludes the older
> generation, and I know people only in their early fifties who rarely use it
> and don't feel comfortable with it, despite professional training courses
etc.
> People in their sixties or seventies may be at a complete loss to cope with
> it. Are councillors' surgeries displayed on noticeboards or announced on
local
Julia
Its not just that they dont feel comfortable about using email, they have the
cost of setting up an internet connection and the monthly charge for this and
that assumes they have a computer.
Derek
> It is definitely true that over-reliance on e-mail excludes the older
generation, and I know people only in their early fifties who rarely use it and
don't feel comfortable with it, despite professional training courses etc.
People in their sixties or seventies may be at a complete loss to cope with it.
in reply to Tony Joyce about how Area Committees might be made more cost
effective, efficient and relevant I think one of the questions is are Area
Committees capable of being reformed? and do we actually really want to reform
them? if so, which bits do we need to change and which bits do we need to leave
alone, or should we just simply abolish the Area Committee and replace it with
a Civil Parish Council?. Or should we have a Civil Parish Council and an Area
Committee? If so, can they be made to work smoothly together and without too
much duplication and overlap of responsibilities? what are the for and against
arguments of all these.
Is it better to have one or the other but not both, or is it better to have
both at the same time.
It seems to me from what I have read on line about Parish Councils that they do
actually seem to have positive advantages when it comes to both allocating
financial resources and then spending the money. They seem to get things done
faster and more efficiently it has to be said.
If the people of quarry, or anyone else for that matter, wanted to set up a
completely new residents association from scratch I have good reason to believe
that it involves some form of formal registration and approval process from the
City Council, and that it can also be a good idea to join the Committee of the
Headington Residents Associations run by Tony Joyce. That you have to hold a
certain number of regular meetings every year and have minute books and agendas
and keep formal accounts and what have you. basically a Residents Association
is no easy matter, and not to be gone into lightly.
The Bradley and Gladstone Road Residents and Tenants Association folded
earlier this year because of the lack of support despite efforts by the city
Council to keep it going.
The City Council keeps a record of Councillor surgeries and updates each year,
You can also find this information in the local press. Each councillor will
have their own additional ways of contacting their constituents; through street
surgeries, newsletters, attending sheltered accomodation coffee mornings,
conducting drop-in surgeries at Community Cafes etc.
Area committees, their role and effectiveness are being discussed currently by
the adminstration, as we recognise that they are not accessible for everyone
and too formal for most.
Ways in which the area committee can demonstrate its effectiveness is to call
other bodies to account. The NEAC invited Thames Water representatives to
attend NEAC, to respond to the many concerns residents and councillors have
with sewage and flooding issues in the North East area. They have promised to
attend further meetings so that we can monitor issues raised and so that we can
maintain a dialogue which has been missing at the local level.
At a previous meeting County Councillor Ian Huspeth attended following our
request to respond to residents concerns about Highways issues and to talk
about the 20MPH scheme for the city. Cllr Huspeth indcated a willingness to
make this a regular event ( county elections allowing!)
On Tuesday 18th November at Sandhills School we will be discussing Cycling in
the North East Area of the city. City and County officers will be present as
well as the police.
The NEAC meetings are held in a variety of locations to reflect the area it
covers, All or some parts of the North East area wards are outside the ring
road, therefore it is important that residents have the opportunity to attend a
meeting in their own community.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't relevant Parish Councils given 'observer'
status at Area Committees?
If so, there's already a "both and" situation.
You are right: each parish council has a representative as a non-voting
member of the Area Committee.
We can certainly learn from what Parish Councils we have, and from what
works and doesn't work at Area Committees. Area Committees' powers are
certainly too limited at the moment, but they are greater than Parish
Councils: the latter are statutory consultees on planning, while Area
Committees can actually hear the applications in public in the local
community and make decisions there and then in most cases -- presently. Of
course, there is talk of axing that power, which would leave Area Committees
as little more than talking-shops, and probably of more limited interest
than they are now. I'd much prefer to see proper devolution, with Area
Committees having more powers and so becoming more relevant to local people,
rather than be stripped of what little responsibility they presently have.
Yes. And no.
Higher level authorities can devolve nearly all (other than the quasi-
judicial issues like planning) their functions to a parish (I'd prefer
to be thinking in terms of a "Town Council" for Headington, not that
there is any legal difference just that it seems to me to suit better
the population and facilities we have). Indeed even on planning it
could effectively work the other way around - the district level
planning committee could visit a parish council for their planning
session and take the decision there and then (though this is less
likely, something similar exists in Eastleigh with their open
discussion and joint meetings of areas and parishes sometimes).
The greatest benefit I can see from having visited several Oxfordshire
parish and town councils on various bits of business over the past
year is that they are not bound by any hint of collective
responsibility with the district council. They can truly fight their
community's corner, and, if they are allowed to exercise their full
powers, let alone those that could be devolved to them in addition,
for example, Headington Town Council could have been the body that
financed, commissioned and operated Barton Pool, to cite just one big
project in the area (not that I am necessarily saying that would be
ideal).
Section 42 highways issues can be devolved to parishes too - one of
the biggest bugbears people have it seems is the condition of their
neighbourhood streets and pavements when they're in this battle for
the same miniscule pot of money as some community the other side of
the county.
Planning is another matter entirely, and one in which Britain excels
only in the bureaucracy involved! There is no way that a householder
application should be in the same system as big developments. In
Denmark, I understand householder applications and small local
developments are dealt with by ad hoc street or neighbourhood level
committees of neighbours (I'm not sure about enforcement).
Of course personally I'd prefer it if the parish or town council was
the highest level of government not the lowest...:)
I could not disagree with David Rundle more, I think it is absolutely crackers
to give more powers to Area Committees, what planet is he on? he seriously
needs a dose of reality, Non Voting Rights for Civil Parish Councillors? what a
total lack of respect that shows, what total contempt for democracy. If it
were up to me I would see to it that Civil Parish Councillors were given equal
voting rights with City Councillors. Area Committees are a sick joke, because
all the Councillors behind the tables come out with stock prepared party
political line to take answers to questions. Mostly the audience consists of
the same faces week in week out with barely any change.
Thirty minutes for the Open Session once a month that is hardly enough time, in
fact it is definitely not enough time, and five minutes for one person maximum,
don't make me laugh.
nicholas - please make your replies as intelligent, and friendly as possible
... or keep your thoughts to yourself. This is a neighbourhood forum, and
your reply to David was NOT neighbourly!
Joan Williams
Nicholas: A wise man once said that you don't make your light burn brighter by
blowing out the light of someone else.
Read, learn and inwardly digest.
I am very sorry to hear that the Gladstone Road residents' Association folded.
However, that seems to underline the need for something of a similar kind in
Quarry.
The formality of registering these things with the City Council is not very
complicated.
The Area Committee meetings are held at times and places when many people (such
as myself) cannot go, and I am told that they are only open to the hoi-polloi
for half an hour. To be able to make suggestions for how to improve their
value-for-money rating, someone would have to go through all the accounts and
records. Even if they are open to scrutiny by members of the public, who has
the time?
I am puzzled how to reconcile the picture of apathy we get from some sources
in this area, with the evident dissatisfaction and desire for more discussion
that I observed at the Friends of Quarry meeting last week.
Nicholas does make some valid points. The problem with the North-East Area
committee area is that it covers an enormous area, stretching from Marston to
Sandhills. Even if just one person from each of the six city council wards
represented were to speak for five minutes, the open session would take half an
hour. There is never time to do justice to everything.
The same people do always seem to turn up at the meetings, but they represent a
range of residents' associations. I don’t think that 6pm is a very attractive
time; but when I put my mind to it I can’t think of any time that would make
the meetings an enticement rather than a duty, especially on a dark winter's
night. Councillors are made of stronger stuff than we humans.
So maybe one possible answer might be to have a meeting devoted solely to
taking questions from the floor and answering them once every so often, and
make this a more informal meeting than the usual Area Committee proceedings.
Perhaps this could be made a smaller affair held more regularly than the Area
Committee.
Or perhaps from what you say in your post Stephanie it demonstrates that
perhaps it really is time that we had a Local Civil Parish Council again for
Headington.
That a Civil Parish Council could hold local meetings more often than the Area
Committee then feed whatever findings came across to the Area Committee. That
a Civil Parish Councillor could be reporting regularly or holding regular
meetings with Angela Cristofoli, and meeting with City and County County
Councillors on an individual basis between meetings of the Area Committee.
This is just hypothetical scenario stuff, just ideas. i don't know what anyone
else thinks of this as an idea, but something needs to be done I think to
stimulate interest in Politics locally and motivate people to vote in
elections, make the Political process at a local level relevant to peoples
lives. Make more people interested in going to Area Committee meetings.
I think it would be a mistake to remove planning issues from the Area
Committee, that I think is an important issue Area Committees cannot afford to
lose. Whether or not City Councillors or the Area Committee are given more
power is a matter of why do they want it? and what are they going to do with it
once they have got it? What do they want it for? I wouldn't just blindly give
it to them because they ask for it.
Notwithstanding what I said in my previous post on the subject
yesterday or whenever (ie that I would prefer the highest level of
government to be at a parish/town council level), I really do question
this reliance on/love affair with public authorities, of whatever size
or remit.
Indeed, on the contrary, we should be building more mutual local
institutions to respond to local needs and to show those enamoured of
big government that things can be done "anarchically" with no power
wielding (and taxing) politicians having to be involved.
One doesn't need to have statutory powers to get on and do things.
One may have to get what statutory authorities rarely get which is
voluntary "buy-in" by the community or constituency you are aiming to
help in some way, but that of course would be a good thing and give
such a body considerably more moral mandate than most levels of
government, especially local ones. It helps of course to have the
statutory power to rob people (ie tax) to fund your pet projects, but
again, achieving voluntary contributions from the communities you want
to help would make that stronger than one that has to rely on coercion
(ie government).
For example, on the Wirral where my sister and brother-in-law live,
they don't have community centres run by the coucil particularly.
They've never had a need for them, because they have a very strong
(still strong) network of private members' clubs (working mens' clubs,
church clubs and similar). Because these are truly owned by the
communities they serve, via their membership, they are well kept by
people with great pride in what they have built up and are a real
centre for social and community life. Youngsters are initiated into
the club first as guests of their parents, then in special activities
organized for them and eventually as members who understand their
responsibilities as members and know they will be blackballed if they
don't behave.
They are far more successful at raising money, for example for
refurbishment when needed, because the members understand amd want
good facilities. They don't need to stand in the bread line of
council funding waiting for the crumbs to fall from the table once the
bus companies have been paid for the pensioners' fare scheme, say (to
pick on just one higher priority scheme).
Jock my dads fathers family came from Liverpool/Merseyside believe it or not,
so I already know a bit about that sort of thing, although I do appreciate
others probably don't, I must admit I quite like the idea of voluntary buy in,
but the inescapable fact of life is that the Council has a lot of money and
power, and access to sources of funding. I am not, as you would put it, in
love with Public Authorities for a variety of reasons actually, I just look at
things realistically and practically. You have to work with what is available
to you. The fact is that Merseyside and the Wirral have got a lot of problems,
and the fact is that the Local Authority are going to have to expend a lot of
time and effort and a lot of government money is going to have to be sunk in
the area to help sort it out. Voluntary groups can only do so much, they can't
perform miracles. it seems to me that what you describe as wanting to see
happening is closer to the French system of doing things.
On 19 Nov 2008, at 15:39, nicholas fell wrote: > Jock my dads fathers family came from Liverpool/Merseyside believe > it or not, so I already know a bit about that sort of thing, > although I do appreciate others probably don't, I must admit I quite > like the idea of voluntary buy in, but the inescapable fact of life > is that the Council has a lot of money and power, and access to > sources of funding. A parish doesn't particularly. Especially in an area with two principal authority tiers. The city's four current parishes precept between about £10 and £20 per household per year. They have no more real access to other sources of funding than any other group. Indeed if you want to raise money from charitable or lottery type funds it is probably *more* likely to go to a voluntary group or social enterprise than a local authority I'd suggest - such are the aims of charitable funding to do things that *aren't* usually delivered by statutory bodies. And why does a project need "power"? - that's where the system breaks down frankly - "power" implies force. And there is very little "power" in a parish or town council by default. You would have more problem arguing with a district council to get them to give a parish council more power probably than to a community group, well run and constituted. Parishes, if anything, get lower election turnouts than even principal local authorities, even when elections to both are held on the same day. If you can't get a better voluntary buy-in than the thirty- something per cent of the electorate (not even population of course) who bother to vote in local elections for a project it's probably not something people care terribly much about, and not something that statutory "power" should be used to foist on them. If you do it as voluntary/social enterprise your buy in need not cover a whole random geographic area, rather the people or communities you are wanting to help. > I am not, as you would put it, in love with Public Authorities for a > variety of reasons actually, I just look at things realistically and > practically. I would suggest "conservatively and pessimistically"...:-) "Conservatively" in that "local government" is the traditional way of doing such things, regardless of how inefficient or undesirable that is (not exactly dynamic out of the box thinking there!), and "pessimistically" in that you should have more faith in the power of people and communities working together, often in spite of statutory government bodies, which, once they get involved, tend to slow things down to a crawl (though I tend to agree that parishes are more "agile" in many respects), tinker in a way that reduces the effectiveness of the project concerned and so on. Think, for a moment, about what you are asking for - you want to get a 10% of the electorate petition together even to hold a referendum for a parish. You then have to have a referendum which has to get a majority. Then you elect parish councillors in elections with an almost vanishingly small turnout which gives them a mandate of what? Very little, morally anyway. You might as well identify what it is you actually want to do (having a parish is not an end in itself it must have aims and purposes to have any popular traction) and go round the houses you would have to do in the first two stages - petition and referendum - and sell whatever ideas you want to see direct to people. > Voluntary groups can only do so much, they can't perform miracles. I completely disagree. It is only voluntary groups that can really perform the miracles. Government bodies are usually inefficient in allocating resources and can't really react to needs as fast as people would like. They also have the supreme benefit of being able forcibly to take money from you rather than have to persuade you that it's in a good cause. Those who do have to raise the money and get voluntary co- operation are the real miracle workers! > it seems to me that what you describe as wanting to see happening is > closer to the French system of doing things. If you refer to the commune system, then yes, I suppose I do. And a very good thing that would be too. Even Parish Councils operate on too large a scale for my real preferences - we are still, even in parished areas, one of the lowest electoral ratio countries in Europe (Denmark I believe it is has some kind of elected representative for every 200 or so citizens for example). I actually prefer the idea of "cellular democracy" as promoted by folk like Fred Foldvary in the US, if something has to be done by force (which is what government in any guise is): http://www.gmu.edu/jbc/fest/files/foldvary.htm
I think what Nicholas means is that since the local government does get quite a
lot of our money already, he would just like to have more say in what is done
with it and where it goes.
Would anybody agree that meetings of the Area Committees should be held at a
variety of times and places, so that a wider range of people could attend? Why,
for example, could some meetings not be held on a Saturday morning?
Julia, I would support your suggestion to hold some area committee meetings on
Saturday mornings 100%, as a councillor with a full-time job! This should also
suit folk with families as it is probably easier to find child-minders among
friends and family on Saturday mornings when the latter are not working. I
think the issue with holding meetings on Saturdays may be that council officers
who are required to attend and invited speakers from other agencies would be
asked to give up some of their personal time to do this, and I assume also that
overtime payments would be involved unless time was taken in lieu. Maybe open
forum on Saturdays and full meetings on weekday evenings? Hopefully suitable
venues could be found - some book up a long way in advance.
It seems extraordinarily difficult to change times of meetings that are
attended by, or convened by, other agencies too. I had to fight really hard to
get a Neighbourhood Action Group meeting set for an evening rather than 10.30
in the daytime for residents in Old Headington and, even now, I suspect it's
just a one off arrangement without further lobbying.
Well said Ruth!, I am behind you up to the hilt with this suggestion, glad to
see you are open minded and good to see some outside of the box thinking coming
from both yourself and Julia Gasper, this is what it needs, creative and
thoughtful ideas. I think the Saturday idea is really good, needs pushing for
I reckon, time to break with conventional ways of doing things. Would it be
strictly necessary to have Council Officers and other agency personnel in
attendance if it was Open Forum only on a Saturday? Surely the odd occasional
Saturday of Public Service could be done without any Overtime payments being
made couldn't it? whats a bit of giving up of one's time for Public Service
afterall?.
And on a slightly different note to get back to the point about Residents
Associations groups I am all in favour of these, and the more of them we have
in the local community the better in my view. I still say we should have a
Civil Parish Council for Headington though, as well as an Area Committee.
And what Julia says in her post about my wanting to have more of a say in what
is done with our money, and where it goes, she has got that absolutely right,
damn right I do!. We could do with a lot more of this outside of the box,
challenge convention, blue sky thinking and off the wall unconventional ideas.
And if you were all wondering, then yes I am a supporter of Barack Obama.
Quoting from the previous post: "Would it be strictly necessary to have
Council Officers and other agency personnel in attendance if it was Open Forum
only on a Saturday? Surely the odd occasional Saturday of Public Service could
be done without any Overtime payments being made couldn't it? what's a bit of
giving up of one's time for Public Service"
I hope this doesn't count as going 'off topic', but I have an opinion with
regards to the person making that post telling me that because I work for the
council, I ought to attend meetings on weekends without any payment and that
this should be done, presumably gladly, (I assume you want us there - in our
own time - perky and willing to engage and helpful, rather than we sit there
scowling and hungover with our arms folded being monosyllabic? Because, don't
forget, you get what you pay for, and you don't want to pay us) and all in the
name of public service.
Why do you consider I shouldn't be paid? In my experience, when I attend
public meetings (which in my role I don't have to do particularly often) it's
usually so members of the public can shout at me and tell me what a rotten job
I'm doing and/or how much they dislike the council. You want me to do this on
a Saturday? Without pay?
I live locally. Most of my colleagues do not. Thinking about most of the
colleagues I know about, and this is (a) unscientific and (b) a generalisation,
most of my colleagues who live within the city are the lower paid workers.
Most times, people who you'd need at meetings - those people from supervisor
and junior management level upwards live outside the city, until you get up to
the most senior levels. The Chief Executive and at least one of the 2
Directors both live in Oxford. Will you be paying the travelling expenses of
these people to attend work on a Saturday without pay, or will you be expecting
them to fund their journey to your meeting themselves, thus making themselves
further out of pocket than if they had stayed at home enjoying their weekend?
Also, please don't forget there are 6 area committees across the city. For
things like Planning, the officers divide the city up so that one person
doesn't have to attend every meeting. However, for things that are City Wide
you'll often get one officer attending all 6 Area Committees - I have done this
myself. So suddenly, this isn't the "odd occasional Saturday". Are you still
not wanting to pay me?
And, what constitutes occasional? Once a year? Twice? Monthly? Weekly?
Who decides how much of our downtime we should give up for free in the name of
public service? How will we know when we've given enough?
And I should point out many people in the council DO work weekends and
evenings, regularly. Those who work in leisure, for example. Or who work
places which provide a 24 hour service. Litter pickers, toilet cleaners. If
you have a council related emergency on a Saturday, an officer will be there.
I hope you won't resent that they will be paid when they help you out.
The way payments work at the council are: You get paid for your 37 hours, or
whatever (most full time people are on 37 hours per week). Over and above that
there are one-off payments for evening meetings, as long as they meet certain
conditions. You can get TOIL (time off in lieu) and some people get overtime.
On the grade I'm on, I can get TOIL but I won't - and have never - been paid
for overtime. However, under the flex system the council operates, officers
who get flex (and not all do), we can only carry over 10 hours additional a
month. If we've worked more than 10 hours over and above our contracted time,
we automatically lose those extra hours. So, effectively, we do work without
pay. It is a regular occurance for me and many of my colleagues to lose hours
this way on a monthly basis.
With regard to Saturdays, do you want me to give up time with my husband and
young daughter? Does the fact I'm also a foster carer mean you'll allow me to
be excused? Or should I still give up my precious down time for free?
There are lots of things I do with my own time which others may consider worthy
and of benefit to a community. And lots of my colleagues do too. Does someone
who does voluntary work on a Saturday have to attend your meeting for free,
even if his/her attendance puts out others who would otherwise benefit from
their time? Do you still think we should give up our Saturdays?
And this ignores the fact that I often chose to take work home because I
haven't had time to do it during the day and anything I do at home is never,
never paid, claimed, TOIL'd, etc. I have also taken telephone calls outside
work, in the evenings and at weekends. I don't get paid for that either,
although I do have the option to switch my phone off. I also run work-related
errands on the weekends if I haven't had time to do them during the week. I'll
pop somewhere to check something out if necessary, often dragging my family
with me. Mostly, my manager will never know I've taken work home or dealt with
phone calls or run errands. But my family do.
I'll let them know you don't consider it's enough.
To expect council officers to work for free at the weekend is taking 'public
service' a step too far. Kate is absolutely right, and I quite understand her
feelings of frustration following some of the negative comments that have
appeared on this forum. Ther is absolutely no reason why officers should have
to defend their 'free' time.
How Area Committees can be improved is as I have already explained a topic of
debate and discussion with the administration, so constructive and realistic
suggestions are very welcome.
Most councillors have full time jobs so part of their weekends are already
spent meeting their constituents in a variety of settings and attending weekend
events in their areas. I'm sure they would consider joining Saturday meetings
as this is what they would already be doing..
As a city councillor I respect and value the hard work and dedication of our
workforce. Most of them do difficult jobs and rarely get any thanks, and it's
certain that you would notice if they stopped doing it!
So, for one, thank you Kate and enjoy your weekend with your family, guilt
free!
I do not dispute what Kate says about Council employees wishing to see their
families or do voluntary work at a weekend. But please consider that many of us
who would like to attend these meetings also have families, or do voluntary
work, and none of us as far as I know are in the highly-paid bracket.
Senior and middle-rung local government officials get very generous pay
compared to the living standard of most of my friends, who belong to the
bicycle and woolly hat class.
In order to attend an Area Committee meeting on a Tuesday evening at six
o'clock over at Sandhills, I would have to finish work early, thus losing pay
without the option of making it up through flexi-time. It would take me about
one and half hours cycling in the dark to get there and back, unless I used
taxis, which would be much safer in the rush hour, especially when it is dark
and cold (though not faster with a 20 mph speed limit). The total costs would
be, I estimate, about forty pounds for a single meeting at which the public
have (I am told) only half an hour for discussion. Is that cost we face, any
better than the unpaid work you complain about?
That is what you are expecting the public to do to get their little crumb of
so-called democracy. So all I am doing is trying to suggest some possible
alternatives and encourage others to suggest some too.
The very least that should be done is to VARY the times and places of these
meetings so that they are more likely in the long run to include a majority of
participants.
I agree that it would be worth discussing with the City Council to see
if the area committee meetings could sometimes start a bit later. I
work at the Oxford Brookes Wheatley campus and it can take me up to 45
minutes to cycle home to Headington if the wind is against me, so a
later start would be appreciated!
I would also like to suggest that the minutes of the previous meeting
are taken earlier on in the agenda, thereby giving a later start to the
public speaking time.
BTW it took me less than 10 minutes to cycle from Headington Quarry to
the area meeting in Sandhills on Tuesday evening and that included
dismounting and pushing the bike through the subway. The discussion
about cycling in the north east area was interesting.
Cllr Roz Smith
Barton & Churchill Division
Tel. 01865 750 731
Mob. 07722 840 117
Liberal Democrats - Putting People First
Am I in the right place? One thread seems to have spilled over into another
here!
Anyway:
"You cannot please all of the people all of the time". If a meeting is
important to me I attend at the appointed hour no matter what. Our vicar
refuses to change Sunday Church services to Tuesday, and cares little that I
have things to do & places to go. It's the same with the hospital ... take
three hours off work and get here or you'll be sorry when you die
I have owned this webcam for ages: why can't surgeries, meetings, dental
check-ups etc. be held online in the comfort of one's own home ...
preferably after dinner/Corrie, and when Nicholas is not in the throws of
doing a good deed?
Joan Williams
Julia: some of your calculations seem dubious; Roz can cycle from Quarry to
Sandhills in 10 minutes, whilst you suggest 45. Being a cyclist myself and
having done this journey many times, I'm more of the "10 minutes" school myself
- and I'm well into my 50s.
This can only leave me wondering how many of your other facts and figures about
attendance at such meetings might also have been inflated for effect.
Not necessarily, it would depend on what route one took as to how long it took,
and how fit you were to begin with, and what the traffic is like, and it would
depend on the weather, and whether or not you obey all the traffic laws as
well. But on the subject of whether Quarry needs a residents association I
would say that an argument could be made to support such a move yes.
Especially seeing as the Bradley and Gladstone Residents and Tennants
Association has folded, and there doesn't appear to be any other such like
group operating in the area at present, apart from the Friends of Quarry, but
as Julia herself has pointed out that is not quite the same thing. Therefore
there would appear to be a bit of a gap in the market at present.
I would certainly encourage such a thing, as anything that encourages people to
take an interest in politics and to get actively involved at grassroots level
can only be a positive thing. Anything that helps to tackle political apathy
is a good thing I think. I was talking to a resident in Wharton Road today,
who for a variety of ongoing legal reasons shall remain nameless, but it was to
do with traffic related issues.
I think both of Roz's suggestions - for starting the meeting later and using
the start for reading minutes - are good ideas.
Does "the throws of doing a good deed" mean the "throes" as in death throes, or
the throes of childbirth?
Re the journey time I was assuming I would have to go there straight from the
city centre, to get there at 6pm.
If some occasional meetings could be held on Saturdays then I agree that it
would be a short journey to Sandhills.
But who always gets home by 5 o'clock?
Julia asked:
> Does "the throws of doing a good deed" mean the "throes" as in death
> throes, or the throes of childbirth?
Oooo - I made a typo! - as in the W being next to the E on my keyboard. I
must check for typos, spelling mistakes, correct punctuation, and good
grammar here in future -- did not know it was under scrutiny. (Hope it
doesn't put others off from posting here ... they may have something
interesting to say!)
Correction:
*Throes* as in manic spasms ... as in urban-speak.
Joan Williams
Why the fixation with Sandhills? As far as I recall the NE Area Committe goes
to various locations all over Headington and Marston so that people don't
always have to travel miles from home to get to a meeting.
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
The North East Area Committee (NEAC) meetings do move around to give each of the six wards of Headington Marston a chance. You can always find out where the next meeting will be on this page: http://www.oxford.gov.uk/council/meeting-diary.cfm/detail/7 On 16 December it will be very handy for anyone living in Quarry: it is at Corpus Christi church hall in Margaret Road. Having the meeting at variable times would confuse people. And since the meetings can go on for over three hours, if they started at 8pm they would finish very late. I don't think that there is an ideal time. I cycled to Sandhills for the meeting last week, and although it did not take all that long, I found the journey very bleak in the dark. For the sake of people who have no cars, it would be good if meetings at the far outposts of the North East area could be given the summer slots.
I am reading with interest all comments on Area Committees, however Stephanie's
last message had a comment on venues which I need to respond to. The Area
Committee does use venues all around the North-East area of the City, however
through experience we book winter venues where there is good heating and this
does limit the range of venues we can use. If we did use far outposts during
the summer, then I am sure we would get more complaints about sitting in
freezing venues in the winter even if they happened to be nearer for some
people to get to.
Seeing as there appears to be an issue of transport for getting to Area
Committee meetings for those who do not have cars, maybe there needs to be
either a car share scheme for these meetings, or some sort of Community Minibus
laid on to save people having to cycle in the dark, funded by some type of
common pot that all of us attending the meetings could pay into, just an idea.
Maybe meetings ought to be kept shorter in the winter so that they finish at an
earlier time, and maybe they should start slightly earlier as well. Perhaps
there needs to be some sort of questionnaire form circulated at Area Committee
meetings about this issue of what day meetings should be held, start and finish
times and venues for meetings and associated transport issues.
I have a real issue with cyclists after dark in Oxford, they still don't use
adequate lights, or reflectors, some don't even wear reflective sash belts, and
I am glad to see that the wearing of cycle helmets is catching on and
increasing, which is sensible, and cyclists should not go around wearing Ipod
earphones in, I have seen this believe it or not, and some cyclists do not use
arm signals either which doesn't help.
I'm glad to hear that there will be a meeting at Margaret Road in central
Headington soon, as that is much fairer.
As usual they've chosen a time when I can't go - it's just too near Christmas
and clashes with another event. Every single Area Committee meeting I have ever
heard about always clashes with either work, family duties or a pre-arranged
holiday. Yet I am here 348 days of the year.
I agree that places like Sandhills are only suitable for summer meetings. The
buses out from the town centre during the rush-hour are just too slow because
of traffic congestion. Nick Fell is quite right that most of the traffic-lights
along that route should never have been installed. They just create problems.
As for cycling, a couple of years ago I decided, after seeing some horrid
accidents, that I would never cycle along the London Road or the Ring Road in
the dark again. Not with any amount of lights or reflective accessories. No,
thanks!
I heartily endorse Angela's comment on the need to find well heated venues
for the winter! In my experience, a good deal of car sharing already happens
to the more distant venues, by those who can organise their lives
efficiently.(But cycle routes to Sandhills could certainly be made more user
friendly in winter - and ought to be!) I think most of the permutations on
timing have already been examined, and start times and the order of business
vary from one Area Committee to another, depending on the circumstances of
the particular councillors and the expected audience. Most Area Committees
review these regularly - though of course when canvassing the views of the
audience at a meeting, it is only those who have turned up which are
considered!
For working councillors and audience, 6pm has usually proved to be the
earliest possible time, particularly at places more difficult to access from
the city centre. North Area Committee (where the majority of councillors are
not tied to 9-5 jobs) starts at 5pm, but deals with planning applications
first, on the assumption that anyone specially affected by a particular case
could make a special arrangement to be there then. Business of a more
general interest does not start until at least 6.30, sometimes later. North
Area is much more compact, with good spinal bus services which allows it to
meet always at the same venue, which is a simplification, but a bit distant
for those living the far side of Wolvercote. Central, South & West AC tries
to start at 5.30, but sometimes has to wait for enough councillors to arrive
to make up a quorum. Being more extended, like NEAC, it moves its venues
from place to place.
Tony
On 24/11/08 11:51, "nicholas fell" <nick.fell@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> Seeing as there appears to be an issue of transport for getting to Area
> Committee meetings for those who do not have cars, maybe there needs to be
> either a car share scheme for these meetings, or some sort of Community
> Minibus laid on to save people having to cycle in the dark, funded by some
> type of common pot that all of us attending the meetings could pay into, just
> an idea.
>
> Maybe meetings ought to be kept shorter in the winter so that they finish at
> an earlier time, and maybe they should start slightly earlier as well.
> Perhaps there needs to be some sort of questionnaire form circulated at Area
> Committee meetings about this issue of what day meetings should be held,
start
> and finish times and venues for meetings and associated transport issues.
>
> I have a real issue with cyclists after dark in Oxford, they still don't use
> adequate lights, or reflectors, some don't even wear reflective sash belts,
> and I am glad to see that the wearing of cycle helmets is catching on and
> increasing, which is sensible, and cyclists should not go around wearing Ipod
> earphones in, I have seen this believe it or not, and some cyclists do not
use
Julia, Area Committees always meet at the same time each month. For NEAC
this is the third Tuesday of the month, and dates and venues are published
well in advance. If one wants to attend, one only has to write the date in
one's diary in advance, and try then to avoid a clash.
Tony
Stephanie mentioned that ' 'The problem with the North-East Area committee area
is that it covers an enormous area, stretching from Marston to
Sandhills.'
Quite so. If the role of these committees is being reviewed, why not divide
North-East in two, so that the new areas would match in size those of East and
Cowley?
Could anyone explain why it was created to cover such a large area in the first
place?
I think this is an interesting idea that Chris has come up with here, question
is how exactly this would be done, the dividing of the Committee in two? and if
one did divide the current Committee in two one would need to find new names
for the two new, smaller Committees, and what exactly would they be called?
If Chris wants to know why it was created to cover such a large area, I suggest
that he ask Angela Cristofoli the Area Coordinator for the North East Area
Committee, but I would hazard a guess it has something to do with political
ward boundary changes probably. That or geographical historical accident
possibly. Tony Joyce or Stephanie Jenkins would probably know the right
answer.
I was thinking yesterday about this issue of people not always being able to
make Area Committee meetings for various reasons, and I thought perhaps what
might be a good idea would be if there could be a group of people available to
ask questions on behalf of others who are unable to make the meeting in person,
questions by proxy if you like. Afterall one can have a Proxy to vote in
elections on one's behalf, so why not have a nominated Proxy to ask questions
at Area Committee on one's behalf?
Yes, I would support the proxy idea. That would save lots of people the trouble
of having to go in person!
Is there any particular reason for holding meetings out at Sandhills?
I only ever go there if I'm on a coach to London. I think of it (Sandhills) as
a wild, distant place, like Samarkand or Mongolia. Why can't meetings be held
in Bury Knowle Library, for instance?
And is there any particular reason why the December meeting cannot be brought
forward to avoid the Christmas season?
The cost of paying council personnel to attend a meeting if held on a Saturday
would surely be a drop in the ocean, relative to the administrative costs of
the City. So why begrudge it?