All posts in the topic Refreshing the Forum (Short link)
Summary
- There are 71 posts — by 17 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Steven Clift at Jun 05 02:56 UTC
Currently the forum is effectively inactive and is not achieving its objective
to be a lively, inclusive and influential venue for discussion.
It is time for me to relinquish the role of forum manager. Members of the
current steering committee have indicated that there is also a need to renew
membership of that committee.
There will be a meeting to discuss the setting up of a new steering committee
and forum manager on 11th September at 6.30 p.m. The venue is subject to
confirmation but is likely to be at East Ham Town Hall. All members of the
issues forum are welcome. It will be helpful if you confirm your attendance in
this thread. I suggest that the sharing of ideas on the future direction of the
forum prior to the meeting would also be useful.
Gavin,
Sorry to hear that you are stepping down from the Forum Manager Post.
May I suggest why, I think that, there is a lack of activity is because the
residents of Newham are not aware of its exzistence.
Newham Council are reluctant, or are they refusing to advertise the Forum on
their Newham Council Web-Site.
The Newham Magazsine is published fortnightly, and to my knowledge, never once
has the Forum been mentioned.
The Mayor has never been keen on enabling a lively On-Line discussion group in
Newham, take for instance his apparent refusal to give consideration to the
setting up of a e-petition site that is enjoyed by the residents of the more
progressive Councils in this democracy of ours.
Until such time as this Forum is known to the wider populace of Newham it will
never get off the ground.
Gavin.
I agree with Charles %100 Sir Robin and Newham do not want open and
free discussion. Never has and never will He has even cocked a snook at
H.R.H.Prince Charles reference a heritage centre or museum for Newham.
sorry to see you go and I hope the ventures you have planned for the future go
well
............Ray
I'd resolved not to participate any further as I felt it pretty pointless when
there seemed to be some "behind-the-scene" colluding to change the direction
certain threads were taking (more specifically, those threads that were
critical of the mayor).
I do check on the forum from time-to-time to see if any important current
issues are debated: the latest Amanda Kelly report into the Housing department;
the very recent fiasco with the refuse collectors; the intended move of
back-office staff to Building 1000; the suspension of a UNISON rep etc. etc.
Both Sarah Ruiz and I have covered why the Mayor and other councillors do not
participate in this forum and why the Town Hall have no interest in promoting
it.
Charles' notion of an e-petition facility is a good one and I think it is an
idea that should be pushed further.
With regard to this forum, I recently spoke with a fairly sizeable group of
local people who seemed the sort who would enjoy participating here. One of
their number said that he'd come across the forum by chance and he had asked a
(Labour) councillor of his acquaintance about it about it. He was told that the
forum is seen as a bit of a joke by members at the Town Hall and is used
primarily by "disaffected nut-cases and the boroughs saddest losers". Oh dear!
Thank you Charles and Raymond for the kind words. While I will be stepping down from the role of forum manager I would certainly like to remain an active member of an active forum. A space for discussion about local issues that is not 'owned' by any particular interest is of potential benefit and I hope that forum members will help promote its development and expansion. The forum was originally set up with the support of our American colleagues Steve Clift and Tim Erickson from the E-Democracy. The goals of the forum are simply outlined on this page: http://e-democracy.org/center/whyjoin.html - The forum was set up with the support of Newham Council and most of the steering committee members were council officers; while this had some advantages it meant that those managing the direction of the forum were perhaps not sufficiently rooted in the community and felt obliged to act as facilitators rather that active participants. There is clearly a tension between being an employee of a council and being a leading member of a body often critical of that council; particularly when that criticism is at times personalised. The setting up of a new steering committee whose members are not, or are not predominantly, council officers is pretty essential in moving the forum forward. Charles said "Until such time as this Forum is known to the wider populace of Newham it will never get off the ground". This is of course the key factor. There have been a number of suggestions as to how we could get more people involved ... what is needed is a collective will to implement these suggestions.
It does not necessarily hold that those steering group members who are council
officers should not participate because they are "not sufficiently rooted in
the community". There have been several occasions when forum members have
posted questions that could be answered by those council officers who are
listed as members of the forum. The forum goals state that among the Top 5
Reasons, Why A Citizen Should Participate, the third top reason is to "Ask
questions" and the fifth is to "Connect with elected officials and city staff";
to the best of my knowledge, the only "elected officials" who have connected
with the forum have been Sarah Ruiz and myself during our time as elected
members. I don't recall any council officers (other than Gavin) responding to
any queries on this forum. It seems the forum is most definitely failing
members in regard to these goals.
Concerning the personal nature of criticism, a good deal of the criticisms
posted on this forum have been directed at the mayor. As we have a mayoral
system of governance this seems to make sense. Obviously, abusive comments
should be jumped upon in an instant, but criticism of the individual with whom
"the buck stops" doesn't warrant a curtailing of the issue being discussed.
Lastly, if the Newham Recorder actually made a half decent attempt at reporting
local governance issues in a constructively critical way from time-to-time,
then maybe the forum might get a mention in it's pages. I know from personal
experience that the Recorder is adverse to running anything that is more than
mildly critical of the mayor and his administration - I've had a sentence
changed in a letter that I sent to the Recorder because it criticised a close
friend and advisor of the mayor (not omitted, actually changed!). So it's
highly unlikely that the forum will be used by local reporters to "look for
story ideas or identify sources for articles" - another forum goal.
Apologies for not posting sooner, I have of late become involved in regularly
posting to the UK Yahoo Answers forum regarding national/international issues
and therefore neglected what is going on locally for a while.
I'm extremely sorry to see Gavin stepping down as I think he has done a
tremendous job with regards to the running of this forum over some time. May
whoever steps into his shoes (or is it 'up to the keyboard') will continue
assure that this forum remains a success.
I take on board some of Mikes points. I too find it very dissapointing that our
local representatives (other than Mike and Sarah when they were in office) have
not done more to engage with local people via E-Democracy. And for this reason
take up has not been what it should. Having said that, UK politics and
Democracy seem to be having trouble at all levels at the moment. I certainly
think that whoever takes over as forum manager and whoever sits on the forum
committee needs to push hard with our local elected councillors to get them to
take e-democracy serious.
Mikes comment about '...the forum is seen as a bit of a joke by members at the
Town Hall and is used primarily by "disaffected nut-cases and the boroughs
saddest losers...' may well be true, but its probaly a double edged view as
many people in the borough also see many of the elected representatives as
nut-cases and sad losers too.
Once again, thanks Davin for all the effort you have put in.
"disaffected nut-cases and the boroughs saddest losers"
I think that says more about some of those people at the town hall than
it says about users of this board..but then again if I actually started
bothering about the opinions of those particular members I might well consider
myself a sad loser, and thats putting it mildly.
Carol.
if you politicians cant get more than 30% of the people out to vote, what hope
is there to get legions of newham surfers to log onto, read digest and then
respond to the comments on this forum?
First, I must apologise for having to change the date of the proposed Steering
Group meeting that I had announced for 11th September. I have received no new
commitment to attend and members of the current steering group will not be able
to make that date. I will chase them up and get back to the forum as soon as
possible with a new date.
Second, thank you for your kind words Lane. I would have liked to have seen the
forum expand more during my near three years as its manager and I hope that a
new manager and refreshed steering group will be able to make this happen. The
success of the forum is dependent on its regular contributors - and despite its
slow growth it is those contributors that have made it a success in becoming
what may be Newham's only universally accessible platform for free discussion
of local issues (though we may have occasional disagreement on the parameters
of freedom).
Lane said "UK politics and Democracy seem to be having trouble at all levels at
the moment. I certainly
think that whoever takes over as forum manager and whoever sits on the forum
committee needs to push hard with our local elected councillors to get them to
take e-democracy serious". I think that this is something that needs to be done
and I hope that Lane, Mike, David, Carol, Charles, Raymond (who have
contributed to this thread) and the other regular contributors, will become
members of a new and more proactive steering committee that is capable of
openly pushing local councillors.
David highlights the other issue we have to work on when he asks "if you
politicians cant get more than 30% of the people out to vote, what hope is
there to get legions of newham surfers to log onto, read digest and then
respond to the comments on this forum?". In order that people become involved
in this forum they need to:
a) Be comfortable with electronic forums as a means of communication.
b) Be comfortable participating in public debate.
c) Be interested in debating local issues.
After this they need to convinced that their participation is worthwhile either
because the forum effects (at least potentially) change or because it
stimulates thought. We are involved in the forum because these conditions hold
true for us; if we want to involve others we need to ask whether and how we can
help make the same conditions true for them.
Errmmmm.... Lane, '...the forum is seen as a bit of a joke by members at the
Town Hall and is used primarily by "disaffected nut-cases and the boroughs
saddest losers...' wasn't a direct quote from me; I was just passing on what
someone told me an elected member had said in reference to the forum.
The truth is, this forum will never fulfil its goals if it doesn't get the
support of the Town Hall (officers and members). It needs to be pushed into the
wider community by the authority.
It's quite simple Mike, anybody who works for the council is worried their job
is on the line if they post on this forum.
Imagine if anyone were to criticise the move to the Big Glass Box or even
comment on the best part of management wasting a morning there today while
somebody postures about the borough wanting to move from the first division to
the premier league. As long as the mayor and those around him are perceived as
all powerful and totally unforgiving why would anyone in their right mind want
to post on this forum or consider it worthy of promotion?
Absolutely right Steve. The real problem is that there is no scrutiny of the
Executive, the example you make is a case in point. If you read the Newham
Recorder you may have read my comment that suggests the Town Hall should
publish all the figures that prove the move to Building 1000 is as financially
viable as is claimed. I find it particularly galling that the Mayor made the
claim that the move will not cause an increase in council tax. It's much like
the constant trumpeting that events like the "mayor's" town show and the Big
Sunday are free!
If there were an effective scrutiny process at the Town Hall, these claims
would be vigorously examined.
If the six opposition councillors were a bit more proactive and insisted that
the Council fulfil its obligation to scrutinise Executive decisions then that
may lead to council officers having the courage to speak out.
However, I don't see why council officers cannot make postings here. For the
most part, members have requested answers to straightforward questions, answers
that should be readily available in a democratic society.
john mcneill doesnt seem to worry
or rita thingy from the council (sorry cant remember your surname)
i'd like to suggest the mayor holds elections for the "Mayors Pet Dog"
we can get all dog owners interested in putting their pooch forward and
provided they get 10 paw prints from other dogs can go forward to the next
round. there will be a line up against the car park wall at EH town hall, and
any dog who squats or cocks his leg will be instantly taken across the road to
a takeaway shop to be dealt with. the ultimate winner will be the one selected
by the mayor who looks most like one of his cabinet. woof woof.
David,
I do not work for the Council and I'm sure I'd have been sacked long ago if
I did. I work for a charity in the Borough but please remember that my
posts are my thoughts and not those of the Charity.
John McNeill
Just a couple of quick thoughts:
#1) In some ways the forum is a bit refreshed. According
to our stats, we just hit 59 posts for this month.
That's the most posts in any given month, since
October of last year.
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/newham-issues/stats.html
However, we've only heard from 12 different members
of the forum this month, whereas we have heard from
as many as 28 different people in a single month
in the past.
Also, membership in the forum continues to grow,
although slowly.
March 06 - 147
March 07 - 160
Sept 07 - 167
#2) The easiest way to increase the quantity and
quality of discussion in this forum, and
attract new members is for more
forum members to post their thoughts AND questions
here in the forum.
The forum will grow quicker and have a greater
impact, if a few folks simply take it upon
themselves to start bringing more new topics
into the forum. I've noticed that everytime
someone introduces a NEW topic, we hear from a
NEW member who has never posted before....
Let's give it a try.....
Anyone have any new topics for the forum?
Tim Erickson
E-Democracy.Org
Please note that the new date/time of the Issues Forum Steering Group meeting
is Monday 12th November at 6.00 p.m. The Venue is St Luke's Centre, 85 Tarling
Road E16, IHN.
All members of the Issues Forum are invited to attend but please let me know if
you are coming - so we can cater for unexpectedly large numbers or go to the
pub instead if only three of the current group look like turning up.
We need to discuss and agree:
Membership of the steering group
Selection of a new forum manager
A work programme to increase membership and profile of the forum.
I look forward to hearing from you.
I'm one of those Newham residents who look in the forum but have never seen the
point in signing up to it or making a contribution. But Tim Erickson's latest
write up has pushed me into joining up just to say this -
Does it matter if only 12 people have made a contribution in the last month?
What is wrong with the current quality of debate?
How does the introduction of new topic attract new members?
As an observer, it seems to me that either Tim doesn't understand the politics
of Newham or his role is to try to change the topic when a topic criticising
the Mayor or the Town Hall starts to get going - every time a group of
individuals start to point out what is going on (and in most cases they are
pointing out diabolical liberties) Tim jumps in with some banal fact that he's
picked up from News about Newham or he suggests a change of topic. This time he
did both (is Newham a good place to start a business) - who cares? Only those
that have plenty of money to do so!
I don't agree with a lot of what is said here, but the one thing I do
appreciate is that you get a damn good debate on this forum and it's a hell of
a lot more informative that that PR extension of the Town Hall, the Newham
Recorder.
There is no question that real success of this forum will be based on the participants and the few active citizens who step up to make it something for a broader swatch of the community. You might come up with a list of specific requests to the Council around promotion to those who participate in Community Forum events or directories of local organisations you can contact. A letter to the editor to the Newham Recorder (or perhaps they would cover a relaunch if someone sends them a press release) would also be useful. You know better than I what other local publications or media outlets would target Newham as well. The reality is that finding the right two or three public events to set up a table and sign people up on paper - http://e-democracy.org/uk/ifsignupform.doc (update this) - will bring you your greatest jump in members. This works. We just signed up 70 people for a new neighbourhood forum in Minneapolis at an annual association meeting in one swoop. I should say that our attempts to encourage folks to introduce new topics isn't to suggest you can't talk about the Mayor's policies. If anything, suspicions that we have had made him an even greater focus. I rarely see other councillors mentioned by name (which is a great way to get them to respond or at least follow the forum) and simply haven't seen a forum in our network so focused on one personality. It is based our experience that a diverse range of topics brings in more participants. A few softer "community" topics tend to bring out new posters who then are more comfortable with public speaking online. Having topics that are more issue-focused rather than personality focused also tend to gain more influence in the halls of power and the local media. Newham might be very different than other places, but at least we can try to help when you think it is useful. On that note, a key volunteer role is that of "discussion starter." This could be the role of many people or just an empowered forum manager who has the discretion or flexibility to be more active in introducing topics. Here is a great source of discussion starters from Google News: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=uk&q=newham+council&btnG=Search+News Simply set an e-mail news alert - http://www.google.com/alerts?hl=en&q=newham+council&ie=UTF8&t=1 - and you'll be fed all sort of topics that might be worth forwarding to the forum. If you think you can take on such a role - hey how about one of those Young Mayor candidates! - we'd be glad to provide some coaching. It is an honour to have Newham in our network of Issues Forums, but ultimately it will be the people of Newham who decide how and if to make this work for your community. Steven Clift Board Chair, E-Democracy.Org P.S. Some of the topic ideas from Google News - reply in new topic: Monolithic OS upgrades are so over ZDNet UK, UK - 25 Sep 2007 Even Newham Council, which over the past couple of years veered from Linux pilot poster child to Vista case study as one of Microsoft's five key public ... Newham Council defends decision to ask employees whether they are gay PersonnelToday.com, UK - 17 Sep 2007 Newham Council's head of Human Resources has defended its decision to ask employees whether they are gay. Susan McNally insisted that the sexual orientation ... Rally to defend Unison union in Newham Socialistworker.co.uk, UK - 25 Sep 2007 Michael explained that since his suspension the council have sought to push through vicious attacks to working conditions of refuse and street cleansing ... Integrated Adults Commissioning Manager - Adult Mental Health PublicTechnology.net, UK - 20 Sep 2007 ... service development and improvement and performance monitoring of services and outcomes on behalf of Newham Council and Primary Care Trust. ... Newham rolls out statistics portal to improve decision-making process ComputerWeekly.com, UK - 24 Sep 2007 The council launched the statistics portal, which runs on an Instant-Atlas server provided by Geowise, this month. The system enables the council to collate ... Council seek views on road safety plan Newham Recorder, UK - 29 Aug 2007 Newham Council proposes to extend the current traffic calming measures along Albert Road, from Tate Road up to Camel Road. These include speed cushions and ... Labour repeat calls for councillors to quit Newham Recorder, UK - 20 Sep 2007 The officers were called to the councillor's address in April by a bailiff seeking to recover £595 stemming from a Newham Council parking fine. ... Economist The politics of mosque-building Economist, UK - 30 Aug 2007 In Newham council, a new party—the Christian Peoples Alliance—has sprung up, mainly to articulate non-Muslim resistance to the mosque. ... London Borough of Newham PublicTechnology.net, UK - 18 Sep 2007 It's all part of a new vision and a new attitude at Newham- one that can be seen right through the Council. And the Procurement Department is no different. ...
Steven,
Reading your posting, I wonder if you actually read some of the posting made
here that explain why the Mayor, councillors and council officer do not
contribute to this forum and why they have no interest in promoting it; both
Sarah Ruiz and I have passed on our views on this, I'm not going to go over
them again, but I will add that the fact that both of us have been elected
members and our opinions are based on what we know of the current regime from
first-hand experience.
The reason this forum is focused so much on one individual (the Mayor) is
because the Mayor IS the Executive - all the other positions he doles out to
other councillors mean very little. We could mention other councillors by name
- here goes. I have been informed that, prior to the 2002 May Local Elections,
Cllr Pat Murphy was listed on the electoral register of Wish Ward in Hove up to
the 30th of November 2005. I was informed by Newham's electoral services that
he appeared on the Newham register on the 1st of December 2005, which was just
within the time limit that allowed him to stand as a councillor in Newham. His
address as listed on the register is the home of the Deputy Mayor who happened
to be a councillor with him in Wish ward when she lived in the area. He works
for the Hove MP and, to the best of my knowledge, has no ties to Newham. If the
Labour Party in Newham adhered to the Party's rules it is unlikely he should
have been permitted to stand for the council.
Likewise, Cllr Leitch has admitted she has a home in Southend she claimed in
the Newham Recorder that she also lives in Newham and her job means she spends
time in the borough. She has listed as her address the home of another
councillor and a check of her employer's website shows that Newham does not
fall within their remit boundary.
The issue with both of the above is that it is difficult to see how they can be
described a local representatives. However, in the general scheme of things
this is a minor issue. What is of far greater importance is the fact that the
decisions of the Mayor (the Executive) are not put to any scrutiny - hence the
tone of the postings here. Mentioning councillors here (in a good light or bad)
will not prompt them to contribute - why should they?
You mention the local press. There are two local papers: the Newham Recorder
and the Stratford Express. Both are owned by the same publishers and both have
town hall bias. I have copious correspondence between myself and the editor of
the Recorder regarding my frustration at the papers bias and I can offer up
examples here if anyone is interested. The Recorder has a far greater
readership than this forum and often letters appear in the paper questioning
not just the Mayor but other councillors by name. It is extremely rare for them
to respond and when they do they resort to ad hominem attacks.
Finally, you state that "Having topics that are more issue-focused rather than
personality focused also tend to gain more influence in the halls of power".
There is an "issue-focused" thread on the forum at the moment - the thread
about a young mayor for Newham. Questions have been asked in this thread that
could be answered by councillors and council officers, and one would think that
it is a fairly safe topic for elected members to get involved in discussing...
so far, nothing.
Maybe you could e-mail all the Newham councillors and ask them why they do not
make a contribution.
surely the participants will be aware of these issues and if its something we want to discuss it will be aired. we do have local newspapers that carry all these stories, but really to discuss on here whether or not its justified Joe Bloggs has his stripey t-shirt washed at 30C or 60C kind of defeats the objects surely... if we want to get on here and slag off robin wales, then we can do it. its a democracy forum after all. if we want to get on here and vent our frustration about something, we will. if anyone in power, be that the scottish-windbag himself, any of his lackeys, or any council officer with any real sense of integrity has the decency to post a reply well, thats their choice, in a democracy. this is just a talking shop, "it aint gonna change nothing" no matter what you and all your american friends wish for. when does the funding run out by the way. Steven Clift <clift@publicus.net> wrote: There is no question that real success of this forum will be based on the participants and the few active citizens who step up to make it something for a broader swatch of the community. You might come up with a list of specific requests to the Council around promotion to those who participate in Community Forum events or directories of local organisations you can contact. A letter to the editor to the Newham Recorder (or perhaps they would cover a relaunch if someone sends them a press release) would also be useful. You know better than I what other local publications or media outlets would target Newham as well. The reality is that finding the right two or three public events to set up a table and sign people up on paper - http://e-democracy.org/uk/ifsignupform.doc (update this) - will bring you your greatest jump in members. This works. We just signed up 70 people for a new neighbourhood forum in Minneapolis at an annual association meeting in one swoop. I should say that our attempts to encourage folks to introduce new topics isn't to suggest you can't talk about the Mayor's policies. If anything, suspicions that we have had made him an even greater focus. I rarely see other councillors mentioned by name (which is a great way to get them to respond or at least follow the forum) and simply haven't seen a forum in our network so focused on one personality. It is based our experience that a diverse range of topics brings in more participants. A few softer "community" topics tend to bring out new posters who then are more comfortable with public speaking online. Having topics that are more issue-focused rather than personality focused also tend to gain more influence in the halls of power and the local media. Newham might be very different than other places, but at least we can try to help when you think it is useful. On that note, a key volunteer role is that of "discussion starter." This could be the role of many people or just an empowered forum manager who has the discretion or flexibility to be more active in introducing topics. Here is a great source of discussion starters from Google News: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=uk&q=newham+council&btnG=Search+News Simply set an e-mail news alert - http://www.google.com/alerts?hl=en&q=newham+council&ie=UTF8&t=1 - and you'll be fed all sort of topics that might be worth forwarding to the forum. If you think you can take on such a role - hey how about one of those Young Mayor candidates! - we'd be glad to provide some coaching. It is an honour to have Newham in our network of Issues Forums, but ultimately it will be the people of Newham who decide how and if to make this work for your community. Steven Clift Board Chair, E-Democracy.Org P.S. Some of the topic ideas from Google News - reply in new topic: Monolithic OS upgrades are so over ZDNet UK, UK - 25 Sep 2007 Even Newham Council, which over the past couple of years veered from Linux pilot poster child to Vista case study as one of Microsoft's five key public ... Newham Council defends decision to ask employees whether they are gay PersonnelToday.com, UK - 17 Sep 2007 Newham Council's head of Human Resources has defended its decision to ask employees whether they are gay. Susan McNally insisted that the sexual orientation ... Rally to defend Unison union in Newham Socialistworker.co.uk, UK - 25 Sep 2007 Michael explained that since his suspension the council have sought to push through vicious attacks to working conditions of refuse and street cleansing ... Integrated Adults Commissioning Manager - Adult Mental Health PublicTechnology.net, UK - 20 Sep 2007 ... service development and improvement and performance monitoring of services and outcomes on behalf of Newham Council and Primary Care Trust. ... Newham rolls out statistics portal to improve decision-making process ComputerWeekly.com, UK - 24 Sep 2007 The council launched the statistics portal, which runs on an Instant-Atlas server provided by Geowise, this month. The system enables the council to collate ... Council seek views on road safety plan Newham Recorder, UK - 29 Aug 2007 Newham Council proposes to extend the current traffic calming measures along Albert Road, from Tate Road up to Camel Road. These include speed cushions and ... Labour repeat calls for councillors to quit Newham Recorder, UK - 20 Sep 2007 The officers were called to the councillor's address in April by a bailiff seeking to recover 595 stemming from a Newham Council parking fine. ... Economist The politics of mosque-building Economist, UK - 30 Aug 2007 In Newham council, a new partythe Christian Peoples Alliancehas sprung up, mainly to articulate non-Muslim resistance to the mosque. ... London Borough of Newham PublicTechnology.net, UK - 18 Sep 2007 It's all part of a new vision and a new attitude at Newham- one that can be seen right through the Council. And the Procurement Department is no different. ... Steven Clift Ericsson, Minneapolis Info about Steven Clift: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/stevenclift This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3VwegsnexyYyRjzSPI3c4Q
David wrote:
"..if we want to get on here and slag off robin wales, then we can do it. its a
democracy forum after all"
hmm .. yes but that doesn't mean we have to slag anyone off. Maturity is
knowing you can do it but deciding you won't. Nothing is without cost, and one
cost of slagging off the mayor is that some council officers have felt and have
expressed discomfort with being part of a forum that is seen as a platform for
insults aimed at their employer. We have therefore lost people who could make a
valuable contribution to discussion. If you make personal remarks don't be
surprised if people take it personally.
"..this is just a talking shop, 'it aint gonna change nothing' no matter what
you and all your american friends wish for."
I think we would all wish to bring about change and while a forum like this
could more visibly influence change if it were accepted and supported by local
government, 'talking shops' can change people's perspectives, and surely social
change comes out of such changed perspectives. The forum's effectiveness in
changing perspectives must depend on the quality of discussion and the numbers
that we involve.
Gavin,
You need to explain the following: "[O]ne cost of slagging off the mayor is
that some council officers have felt and have expressed discomfort with being
part of a forum that is seen as a platform for insults aimed at their employer.
We have therefore lost people who could make a valuable contribution to
discussion." First, the Mayor is not the employer of council officers:
technically, the people of Newham are. Second, why should any individual's
contribution to this form, no matter how "expressive" the language used,
prohibit council officers from responding to reasonable questions and requests
for information posted here by other forum members?
I wouldn't term it in quite the same way David has, but I think that any and
every forum member has a right to be critical of the current Council Executive
and should be able to post their criticisms here.
This forum is a talking shop - some of its members' contributions could
influence change IF someone in the Town Hall is prepared to listen.
Mike,
You are correct in saying that expressions by particular forum members should
not "prohibit council officers from responding to reasonable questions and
requests for information posted here". Officers AS officers might be expected
to give information on behalf of the council (and we know that this has
sometimes happened off list), however council officers may feel inhibited as
individuals from contributing personal opinions to the discussion if the forum
is perceived to be a facility for "malcontents and losers" with an anti-council
agenda.
Gavin,
Thanks for approving my previous posting!
Again, reasoned criticism of the Mayor and his regime is equated to an
anti-council agenda (as you put it). Think on this: if there was a culture at
the Town Hall that supported (if not encouraged) officers airing their opinions
about the governance of the borough, there would be very little need for those
officers to "feel inhibited as individuals from contributing personal opinions"
to this forum - or anywhere else for that matter. Surely, the problem isn't
that this forum is perceived as a facility for malcontents and losers (nicely
put; a much better turn of phrase than disaffected nut-cases and the boroughs
saddest losers), it's the atmosphere of fear that council officers seem to work
under.
By the way, I'm unaware of any council officers giving info on behalf of the
council "off list", can you offer up examples?
Steven:
Here's the list of all councillors' e-mail addresses should you decide to
follow up on my suggestion and ask them why they do not contribute to the
forum:
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>;<email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>; <email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>;<email obscured>
You may want to ask them if the are aware of the forum and, if they are, why
they don't make postings.
While you're at it, you might ask them their views on the method used to select
the candidates for the young mayor of Newham election - it would be interesting
to find out how they square it with what should be expected for a democratic
election.
Mike and everyone,
In round one, before your recent election I did e-mail all of the councillors
and met with a few of them as well.
This is exactly the kind of thing a citizen from Newham themselves should do.
Hopefully a core team will join the refreshed steering committee and split up
some outreach opportunities. Imagine what 300 or 600 people on this forum would
mean. Each person knows 10 or 100 people that they interact with and the larger
the audience, the more folks who will have the political incentive to respond.
I've never seen a sense of active political responsibility lead to
participation by those with power and resources. Political relevancy and value
brings people out.
Also, sending a letter or announcement to your local newspaper has never been
tried and should.
I do accept the fact that oppositional forces tend to be the loudest voice in
all of our local forums. Also, all across the Internet people more naturally
reply to things with which they disagree. In the UK, you have the added reality
of party discipline and a massive majority that make individualized public
communication by councillors difficult. To make this an any forum work well,
reducing the heat of personalisation and focusing on issues (even if everything
does center around the Mayoral administration) helps people see the political
relevancy. That is my experience anyway. I want all the forums in the network
to help a diverse array citizens raise their voices in a way that is heard (and
hopefully listened to),
Steven Clift
E-Democracy.Org
>By the way, I'm unaware of any council officers giving info on behalf of
the council "off list", can you offer up examples?<
Most recent involved me I think. I expressed surprise that my orange bag was
put into my dustbin when it was collected and went into the same lorry as
the rubbish. I received a reply explaining that the bags remained intact
through the process and were sorted automatically at the depot. I asked the
officer whether he was happy that I posted his response to the list, which
he was, so I did.
Best
Richard Stubbs
I have just joined this Forum and indeed only recently moved to Newham. I know
your are discussing how the Forum moves forward, but I am surprised by some of
the comments re the Mayor, Councillors,postings on the Young Mayor Project,etc.
Sure Newham has problems, but also opportunities, --and the Mayor and Council
are driving things forward, so why quite so much focus on detail, process, what
this/that phrase means/does not mean, etc ?
Winston.
Stick around for a while and you will see where we are coming
from....................Ray
The fact that you have only recently moved to Newham explains why you are
surprised at some of the comments regarding the Mayor /councillors etc.
Things in this area are being driven forward in spite of the majority of the
people in the area not because of them..Opportunities ?? Maybe you will still
be quite surprised by the content of some of the postings on this forum in a
few months time or maybe you will understand the reason behind them,Who Knows.
..I would like to ask a question while I am on here .
I was asked how Robin Wales became a Sir? What achievement brought about this
honour, and to be honest I had no idea ,can anyone help?
Carol.
Winston, So who are you really? Council Officer or a Councillor? Maybe you are from the hornets nest and are someone from the MO? (Mayors Office). Answers on a postcard please. Winston <winston_washington@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: I have just joined this Forum and indeed only recently moved to Newham. I know your are discussing how the Forum moves forward, but I am surprised by some of the comments re the Mayor, Councillors,postings on the Young Mayor Project,etc. Sure Newham has problems, but also opportunities, --and the Mayor and Council are driving things forward, so why quite so much focus on detail, process, what this/that phrase means/does not mean, etc ? Winston Winston Washington Info about Winston: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/winstonwashington This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3vNh99Y7uMRVSsDNirZfXu
i dont know the chap, and i wouldnt want to either, but reading the internet it just says he was awarded his knighthood for "services to local government" in 2002 i think. PERHAPS ROBIN WILL COME ON AND TELL US EXACTLY HOW/WHY HE DECIDED TO ACCEPT THE HONOUR OF BECOMING PART OF BRITAINS NOBILITY i think i remember someone mentioning (could have been on her, or "offline") that he sucked up to tony blair and newham was a pilot council for many new-labour projects so he ingratiated himself with the movers and shakers and in return got a knighthood. you could argue there are other councillors, labour ones, who served longer and acheived at least as much as his nibs, conor mcauley springs to mind. no i am neither a council officer, councillor, nor am i in the nest of hornets. carol price <c43pennyarcade@hotmail.com> wrote: The fact that you have only recently moved to Newham explains why you are surprised at some of the comments regarding the Mayor /councillors etc. Things in this area are being driven forward in spite of the majority of the people in the area not because of them..Opportunities ?? Maybe you will still be quite surprised by the content of some of the postings on this forum in a few months time or maybe you will understand the reason behind them,Who Knows. ..I would like to ask a question while I am on here . I was asked how Robin Wales became a Sir? What achievement brought about this honour, and to be honest I had no idea ,can anyone help? Carol. carol price Info about carol price: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/carolprice This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3JgyN1EzxKU9I64WIahmSk
Dear Mr Stubbs,
This debate is about the general ability/willingness of officers and
councillors to contribute to e democracy in a free and open manner. The
fact that the only you, in reference to that issue which seems to perplex so
you intensely (orange plastic bags), can find a pathetic example of alleged
free expression seems to PROVE the point that they are all scared to speak.
Rather than finding an exception to the "they are all too scared hypothesis"
have you not in fact proved it? Well sir, speak up, what what!
John McNeill
Thank you for your answer , I thought you had be someone very special or at
least do something outstanding to be knighted .Another myth bites the dust .
I have no idea how my last message was duplicated ..I only posted it once.
Carol.
Steven:
What was the response from councillors to your e-mails and your meetings? Did
any say they would contribute to the forum? Who were they?
As an experiment, I'll e-mail all the councillors asking if they are aware of
the forum and if so why they do not make contributions. Of those that are
unaware of the forum, I'll ask if they would like to participate. I'll post the
results here.
With regard to the points you made:
Political relevance - Again, I suggest you read some of the earlier
topics/postings that have been made here.
Letter to the local press - Ditto.
"[R]educing the heat of personalisation and focusing on issues (even if
everything does center[sic] around the Mayoral administration) helps people see
the political relevancy" - There have been many postings here that posed
questions (and made valid points) that have political relevancy and which HAVE
NOT been "personalised". To-date there have been no answers, responses or
refutations from any elected member or council officer. Do you have an
explanation for this?
Richard:
Thanks, but I have to agree with John; this cannot be counted as "The Council"
responding to issues raised here.
Winston:
The Devil is always in the detail. No matter how benign you may think the
current Mayor and his numerous advisors to be, if you allow them to get away
with playing fast and loose with the democratic process and to make executive
decisions without having those decisions scrutinised, then you set some very
dangerous precedents.
A lot of the opportunities you allude to are available as a result of many
factors; in some instances it may be argued that the Mayor has played a
bit-part in making some a reality, and in those instances he should get all the
praise he so rightfully deserves. But, if you believe that he is the architect
of all the opportunities that are within the grasp of Newham residents (and I
don't think there are as many as some would argue), you are very much mistaken.
I'm interested to know what is it about the comments made about the Young Mayor
"Project" that surprises you.
Just sent the following to every councillor and the Mayor: "Are you aware of the existence of the Newham E-Democracy Forum? [ http://forums.e-democracy.org/newham ] If so, why do you not make any contribution to the forum? If you were unaware of the forum, will you attempt to participate in the discussions that develop on the forum (where such discussions have a relevancy to your role as an elected member)? Mike Law Royal Docks" Will let you know what responses I get (if any). P.S. I got an "out of office" response from the Deputy Mayor - she's unavailable for two weeks.
So far one response: Alan Craig.
He stated that when he has looked in on the forum: "The debates have seemed
sterile."
Steven, if you cannot give details about the feedback you got from councillors,
you could at least let us know how many said they would contribute to the
forum.
Ermmmm..... Steven????
Howdy. I have a new baby in the house so plenty of things are slipping by.
I don't recall a massive response, e-mail grabbed two or three folks like
yourself. Best to assume recruitment with existing councillors is at square
one.
If I were doing this as a Newham resident, I would:
1. Send a bulk invite. Ask people to simply reply personally to ask to be
added. Then have us (or the Gorum Manager) add them. Or tell them how to join
themselves. Let them know there is an easy "digest" or web-only mode.
2. Follow-up with individual personal e-mails asking them to say yes or no. And
if no, why or when or what questions do they have.
3. Find an event where you can address/invite councillors in-person and sign
them up on paper. Then have us (or the Forum Manager) add them.
4. You might set a deadline and promise a big thank you list of those agreeing
to join.
5. You might also ask people on the forum to step forward and take the lead for
their ward. Nothing better than an actual voter asking this of their own
elected official.
You need to make it clear that they (and everyone else) are under no obligation
to post unless they want to do so on a particular topic. In UK e-democracy
circles there is this notion of consultation which puts the government in the
center - that is not our model. Issues Forums are "citizen-based" which means
the value of exchange is on our shoulders and by creating a compelling public
space politicians and civil servants participate because it makes pragmatic
sense to them (even if they mostly lurk). Of course the catch 22 is that we
know that getting at least a few politicians to post regularly helps make the
space compelling to more of the public.
Because this forum has history - where the forum's most active councillors left
the massively dominate ruling party and are no longer councillors - getting
Labour party councillors to post publicly may be very very difficult due to
party discipline (do any local councillors blog??). I recommend focusing on how
to grow the citizen voices in the forum to represent the "real" Newham. This
means mapping out the leaders of your many diverse communities and working to
get at least one or two people who post as an unofficial voice for such
communities as well as report back informally to those networks the major
topics of discussion. While a volunteer could do this, if a local funding
source is available that might make such outreach more realistic.
Sincerely,
Steven Clift
E-Democracy.Org
Steven,
Congratulations!! Girl or Boy?
Thanks for this response.
I agree that the forum should be "citizen-based"; but, if it is
"citizen-based", why should we worry about elected members' and council
officers' perceptions of the forum. This seems a little contradictory.
In all honesty, my impression of the "mediation" that goes on in this forum is
that it is geared towards preventing the continuation of a topic which may
potentially put the Mayor, his Advisors and senior council officers on the
spot.
I strongly disagree with the notion of setting individuals up as leaders of
local communities: this is a Town Hall tactic - identify community leaders (or
those individuals who have a strong presence at community forums etc) and 1/
bend over backwards to get them on-message or 2/ if they are the sort to
question and scrutinise "Council" policy, marginalise them. Furthermore, in my
experience a good number of those individuals who think they speak for a
"community" are deluded.
Surely, forums such as this are nothing more than sounding boards for those who
wish to voice opinions and raise topics which do not necessarily get coverage
in the local press and are not disseminated by the Town Hall media machine.
Contributions from elected members and council officers in those topics where
they could shed some light on the subject would be a bonus. Because of the
knowledge I have of the culture that prevails in the Town Hall I can understand
the reluctance of council officers to contribute to the forum. With regard to
the non-participation of elected members, my view is that it is just a
reflection of the inherent weaknesses of the political parties that select
individuals who are disinterested in entering into straightforward debates with
their constituents.
Periodic reminder and update 1:
"Please note that the new date/time of the Issues Forum Steering Group meeting
is Monday 12th November at 6.00 p.m. The Venue is St Luke's Centre, 85 Tarling
Road E16, IHN."
So far promised attendees are:
John
Richard
Sarah
Gavin
Banti
We need more for an effective steering group.
Being as this is just behind my house I'll turn up.
MarshaJane
xx
www.unionfutures.blogspot.com
Sent with Instant Email from T-Mobile
A week on and no further responses from councillors (of any political
persuasion)
When's Democracy Week?
Almost three weeks on and still nothing from the remaining 60 elected members.
So it seems that, if Newham residents want to "Connect with elected officials
and city staff", this forum isn't fit for purpose - which is a shame.
No doubt there will be those who make excuses for our civic leaders by once
again pointing to all those "negative" and "critical" comments that get posted
here about councillors (I have some sympathy with this point of view as I know
what shrinking violets some of our elected representatives happen to be); but
surely, if there has been any misguided comments, any falsehoods or any
misunderstandings posted here, would it not make sense for councillors to sit
at their freely provided council laptops and run off a quick e-mail putting us
right?
The reality is that, even if this forum had a membership that included every
Newham resident on the electoral register, councillors will not participate
because: 1/ it would involve them committing themselves to the printed word and
2/ there is the facility for their constituents to respond to, and question,
their contributions... this forum (and its like) must seem like a bit a wild
frontier to our doughty elected leader; scary indeed!
I agree 100% Mike Law <mikelaw_per@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Almost three weeks on and still nothing from the remaining 60 elected members. So it seems that, if Newham residents want to "Connect with elected officials and city staff", this forum isn't fit for purpose - which is a shame. No doubt there will be those who make excuses for our civic leaders by once again pointing to all those "negative" and "critical" comments that get posted here about councillors (I have some sympathy with this point of view as I know what shrinking violets some of our elected representatives happen to be); but surely, if there has been any misguided comments, any falsehoods or any misunderstandings posted here, would it not make sense for councillors to sit at their freely provided council laptops and run off a quick e-mail putting us right? The reality is that, even if this forum had a membership that included every Newham resident on the electoral register, councillors will not participate because: 1/ it would involve them committing themselves to the printed word and 2/ there is the facility for their constituents to respond to, and question, their contributions... this forum (and its like) must seem like a bit a wild frontier to our doughty elected leader; scary indeed! Michael Law North Woolwich, Newham Info about Mike Law: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/michaellaw This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1PwhmR8bg5ldzB0k4m3Djf
Hello Mike and David.
I am 100 percent with you on this,
If you waffle at soirees you can always back of or say that you have been
misquoted ..........Once in YOUR OWN print NO WHERE TO RUN.
Ray
One month on and still no further responses from councillors - of course, it
could just be that they object to responding to me: I can understand that from
the Labour councillors, but I can offer no explanation as why I should be
snubbed by Respect and CPA councillors.
I've contacted a journalist on the Newham Recorder and asked him if he can do
an article regarding the forum (incorporating details on how to sign up). He
said he's snowed under at the moment (probably having to copy out all the press
releases from the Town Hall) but he'll see if he can get the editor interested
in fitting something in over the next couple of weeks.
Failing that, I doubt this forum will ever meet its objective "to be a lively,
inclusive and influential venue for discussion". We'll have to content
ourselves with our "talking shop" image.
Worried reminder and update:
"...the Issues Forum Steering Group meeting is Monday 12th November at 6.00
p.m. The Venue is St Luke's Centre, 85 Tarling Road Periodic reminder and
update 1:
"Please note that the new date/time of the Issues Forum Steering Group meeting
is Monday 12th November at 6.00 p.m. The Venue is St Luke's Centre, 85 Tarling
Road E16 IHN."
So far promised attendees are:
John
Richard
Sarah
Gavin
Banti
Marshajane
We really need to get more forum members along for this. It is an opportunity
to see how we can work together to either make the forum much more than a
talking shop or failing that the best talking shop in the borough.
I've noticed that entering the postcode E16 1HN does not give an accurate
multimap or googlemaps return. Best to enter Tarling Road E16. But perhaps John
or Richard can help with more helpful directions.