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There are 17 posts — by 8 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Sheldon Mains at Jul 28 15:58 UTC

From: Peter Fleck Date: Jul 18 15:34 UTC Short link

On an after dark ride down the Greenway and then up the paved path
that follows the light rail line through Seward, I was shocked to
discover that the path has no lights. This was a moonless night and it
was very, very dark. I was worried that I might run into people
walking on the path.

This is the stretch from 26th Street to the 24th St. Crossing (by
Coastal). I'm not sure what the lighting is like north of 24th. This
area needs to be lit before someone gets hurt.

From: bob Hain Date: Jul 18 16:40 UTC Short link

This is a valued route to many cyclists as it connects the Greenway to the
West Bank and downtown.  It is particularly valuable to Seward cyclists
as it runs through our neighborhood.

I continue to raise this issue with my Concil Member, other politicians,
MTC represtatives and everyone else I can find.  So far there just
dosn't seem to be anyone that is interested.  MTC appears to be the
least interested of anyone and they control the trail.

Let's hear it for light and call boxes!!!!!

From: Sheldon Mains Date: Jul 18 16:52 UTC Short link

Metro Transit is proposing a maintenance facility (signals, electrical
stuff--not the LRT cars) along the bike path between 24th and 26th (access
from 24th). They presented their plans to the SNG Development Committee a
couple weeks ago. One of the STRONG recommendations was that they add lights
along the whole path. At least they are planning on adding lights between
24th and 26th as part of this project.

From: Becca Vargo Daggett Date: Jul 19 13:33 UTC Short link

I'm glad to hear Metro Transit is doing something about a section of it.

Lighting that trail was a project considered by CLIC (the citizens
committee that reviews and makes recommendations on the five year
bonding plan) this year. Cam Gordon said it was his top priority for
this cycle. Despite my arguments in favor, CLIC recommended against
funding it. I believe the problem was that it was grouped into a
single project with adding a path to both sides of Hiawatha from 26th
to 38th (those may not be the exact intersections, but that was the
idea), and people couldn't wrap their brains around why that was
needed. It distracted attention from the simple safety factor of the
lighting.

CLIC presents to the Ways and Means Committee on Monday around 2.
Send comments to the committee members before then - Paul Ostrow,
Diane Hofstede, Gary Schiff, Sandy Colvin Roy, Elizabeth Glidden,
Betsy Hodges (council email addresses are
<email obscured>)

Becca

On Jul 18, 2008, at 11:51 AM, Sheldon Mains wrote:

> Metro Transit is proposing a maintenance facility (signals, electrical
> stuff--not the LRT cars) along the bike path between 24th and 26th
> (access
> from 24th). They presented their plans to the SNG Development
> Committee a
> couple weeks ago. One of the STRONG recommendations was that they
> add lights
> along the whole path. At least they are planning on adding lights
> between
> 24th and 26th as part of this project.
>
> sheldon
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter Fleck [mailto:pfhyper@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 10:35 AM
>> To: Minneapolis Seward Neighbors Forum
>> Subject: [Seward] Lights on the light rail bike path
>>
>> On an after dark ride down the Greenway and then up the paved
>> path that follows the light rail line through Seward, I was
>> shocked to discover that the path has no lights. This was a
>> moonless night and it was very, very dark. I was worried that
>> I might run into people walking on the path.
>>
>> This is the stretch from 26th Street to the 24th St. Crossing
>> (by Coastal). I'm not sure what the lighting is like north of
>> 24th. This area needs to be lit before someone gets hurt.
>>
>> --
>> Peter Fleck
>> Seward Forum Manager
>> Blog: http://www.pfhyper.com/blog
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/pfhyper
>> <email obscured>
>>
>> Peter Fleck
>> Seward, Minneapolis
>> Info about Peter Fleck: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/peterfleck
>>
>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/37yOMGuuXfyp5RaUEa16W7
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>
>
> Sheldon Mains
> Seward Neighborhood, Minneapolis
> Info about Sheldon Mains: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/sheldonmains
>
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From: Niko Tomlinson Date: Jul 19 15:15 UTC Short link

I was also recently informed that it's Minneapolis law that cyclists have
(and use) a light on their bikes after dark.  I know many people don't
follow this law but it certainly might help your after dark riding on the
greenway or off.  I imagine it's also more green than a gigantic, expansive
lighting system that's running with or without bike/pedestrian traffic for
10-12 hours a day.

-Niko

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:33 AM, Becca Vargo Daggett <bx@mac.com> wrote:

> I'm glad to hear Metro Transit is doing something about a section of it.
>
> Lighting that trail was a project considered by CLIC (the citizens
> committee that reviews and makes recommendations on the five year
> bonding plan) this year. Cam Gordon said it was his top priority for
> this cycle. Despite my arguments in favor, CLIC recommended against
> funding it. I believe the problem was that it was grouped into a
> single project with adding a path to both sides of Hiawatha from 26th
> to 38th (those may not be the exact intersections, but that was the
> idea), and people couldn't wrap their brains around why that was
> needed. It distracted attention from the simple safety factor of the
> lighting.
>
> CLIC presents to the Ways and Means Committee on Monday around 2.
> Send comments to the committee members before then - Paul Ostrow,
> Diane Hofstede, Gary Schiff, Sandy Colvin Roy, Elizabeth Glidden,
> Betsy Hodges (council email addresses are
> <email obscured>)
>
> Becca
>
> On Jul 18, 2008, at 11:51 AM, Sheldon Mains wrote:
>
> > Metro Transit is proposing a maintenance facility (signals, electrical
> > stuff--not the LRT cars) along the bike path between 24th and 26th
> > (access
> > from 24th). They presented their plans to the SNG Development
> > Committee a
> > couple weeks ago. One of the STRONG recommendations was that they
> > add lights
> > along the whole path. At least they are planning on adding lights
> > between
> > 24th and 26th as part of this project.
> >
> > sheldon
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Peter Fleck [mailto:pfhyper@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 10:35 AM
> >> To: Minneapolis Seward Neighbors Forum
> >> Subject: [Seward] Lights on the light rail bike path
> >>
> >> On an after dark ride down the Greenway and then up the paved
> >> path that follows the light rail line through Seward, I was
> >> shocked to discover that the path has no lights. This was a
> >> moonless night and it was very, very dark. I was worried that
> >> I might run into people walking on the path.
> >>
> >> This is the stretch from 26th Street to the 24th St. Crossing
> >> (by Coastal). I'm not sure what the lighting is like north of
> >> 24th. This area needs to be lit before someone gets hurt.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Peter Fleck
> >> Seward Forum Manager
> >> Blog: http://www.pfhyper.com/blog
> >> Twitter: http://twitter.com/pfhyper
> >> <email obscured>
> >>
> >> Peter Fleck
> >> Seward, Minneapolis
> >> Info about Peter Fleck: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/peterfleck
> >>
> >> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> >> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/37yOMGuuXfyp5RaUEa16W7
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> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> > Sheldon Mains
> > Seward Neighborhood, Minneapolis
> > Info about Sheldon Mains: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/sheldonmains
> >
> > This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-
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>
> Seward, Minneapolis
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>
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From: Kathy Sikora Date: Jul 20 17:46 UTC Short link

It is good when cyclists have lights, but common "be-seen" bike-lighting
systems are not sufficient for such dark areas, and ones that are so are very
expensive.  In addition, pedestrians are not required to, and many use the
transitway.  It is a pathway for pedestrians, joggers, rollerbladers,
roller-skiers, cyclists...  It needs to be lit.

From: Niko Tomlinson Date: Jul 20 19:55 UTC Short link

I definitely agree that safety (both from crime and from running into a
ditch) is a very realistic concern which might justify the lighting on its
own.  I've been warned by people from all parts of the city not to ride on
the greenway after dark because of crime which to me means there's work to
be done there in some respect.  If lighting would really deter crime on some
of those unwatched bridge underside areas is up for debate though...maybe
the lighting would cause more people to use the greenway after dark which,
in addition to the lighting itself, would deter crime.

To Peter's point, I like the idea of developing renewable, sustainable
methods for lighting if it were to go up.  The greenway should be maintained
as green as possible.

I'm also no sure what businesses and residences are along the pathway and
whether light pollution be an issue (e.g. having a light all of the sudden
on every night in your previously unlit backyards)...

From: bob Hain Date: Jul 21 15:01 UTC Short link

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 02:55:39PM -0500, niko tomlinson wrote:
> I definitely agree that safety (both from crime and from running into a
> ditch) is a very realistic concern which might justify the lighting on its
> own.  I've been warned by people from all parts of the city not to ride on
> the greenway after dark because of crime which to me means there's work to
> be done there in some respect.  If lighting would really deter crime on some
> of those unwatched bridge underside areas is up for debate though...maybe
> the lighting would cause more people to use the greenway after dark which,
> in addition to the lighting itself, would deter crime.
>
> To Peter's point, I like the idea of developing renewable, sustainable
> methods for lighting if it were to go up.  The greenway should be maintained
> as green as possible.
>
> I'm also no sure what businesses and residences are along the pathway and
> whether light pollution be an issue (e.g. having a light all of the sudden
> on every night in your previously unlit backyards)...
>
> -Niko
>

Just to be clear, we are talking about the Transit Way.  The Greenway
is already lit and do not recall many complaints about light pollution.

If the transitway were controlled by the same people that run the
Greenway this would already have been done.

From: Peter Fleck Date: Jul 21 15:45 UTC Short link

Yeah. Transit Way. Thanks for giving us a name, Bob.

Peter

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Bob Hain <bob@me.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 02:55:39PM -0500, niko tomlinson wrote:
>> I definitely agree that safety (both from crime and from running into a
>> ditch) is a very realistic concern which might justify the lighting on its
>> own.  I've been warned by people from all parts of the city not to ride on
>> the greenway after dark because of crime which to me means there's work to
>> be done there in some respect.  If lighting would really deter crime on some
>> of those unwatched bridge underside areas is up for debate though...maybe
>> the lighting would cause more people to use the greenway after dark which,
>> in addition to the lighting itself, would deter crime.
>>
>> To Peter's point, I like the idea of developing renewable, sustainable
>> methods for lighting if it were to go up.  The greenway should be maintained
>> as green as possible.
>>
>> I'm also no sure what businesses and residences are along the pathway and
>> whether light pollution be an issue (e.g. having a light all of the sudden
>> on every night in your previously unlit backyards)...
>>
>> -Niko
>>
>
> Just to be clear, we are talking about the Transit Way.  The Greenway
> is already lit and do not recall many complaints about light pollution.
>
> If the transitway were controlled by the same people that run the
> Greenway this would already have been done.
>
>
> --
> bob hain
> <email obscured>
> (612) 626-9800
>
> bob Hain
> Seward, Minneapolis
> Info about bob Hain: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/bobhain
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/79VdS23RRU0RhAqv9VPsLR
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>



--
Peter Fleck
Seward Forum Manager
Blog: http://www.pfhyper.com/blog
Twitter: http://twitter.com/pfhyper
<email obscured>

From: Robin Garwood Date: Jul 21 16:24 UTC Short link

Thanks, Peter, for starting this great conversation.  One thing that I haven't
seen mentioned is that the lack of lighting is not just a problem from 26th to
24th, but along the whole trail.  The other really dark spot is between the
Cedar Riverside LRT station and downtown.

Becca is right that this is a major infrastructure priority for our office -
but it's not just our office that wants to see lighting and call boxes on this
trail.  When the City's Bicycle Advisory Committee was asked to rank ten
potential projects, this one came in first.

There's a little history on this trail that folks might be interested in.
Unlike the Greenway, which was built and is maintained by Hennepin County, or
the Grand Rounds, which are maintained by the Park Board, this trail was built
by the Met Council, as part of the Hiawatha LRT project.  It was considered a
'mitigation,' and did not receive the level of planning or investment of our
other off-street trails.  That's why it lacks lighting, call boxes, and lane
striping.  It's also why the curb cuts at some intersections (15th and 11th
Aves S, for instance) are in what could be politely called odd locations.  It's
also why the pedestrian/bicycle conflict in the location of the Cedar Riverside
station was not really considered (and why we need to make sure MTC doesn't
create exactly the same problem with the Franklin station extension).

This trail continues to exist in a sort of limbo state.  It is owned by the Met
Council, but they have showed no interest in sprucing it up.  The City is
considering 'adopting' it.  It's disappointing that CLIC did not recommend this
lighting project for 2013.  We're considering our next moves.

Lastly, I wanted to speak to Niko's concerns.  Kathy's right that the primary
purpose of having lights on one's bike is not to illuminate the path, but to be
seen.  One of the problems along this trail is glare from the very bright LRT
cars' lights, which overwhelm even fairly bright bike lights.

In my opinion, the energy used to light this trail will be more than worth it,
from a carbon emission perspective.  Right now, this trail gets a lot of use
during the day (I use it to get to and from downtown daily).  But the use drops
of precipitously after dark.  It's much more of a change than on the Greenway,
which is lighted.  I'm certain that the danger - both real and perceived -
created by the lack of light on this trail is deterring people from using it.
Most of these folks are likely driving single occupancy autos instead.

We need to take bicycle infrastructure seriously.  If our bike trails and lanes
are only usable during the day (due to lack of lighting) and the summer months
(due to lack of plowing, etc), we will deter people from biking who would
otherwise do so.  If, on the other hand, we see bike facilities as
transportation infrastructure, no less important than roads, we'll be able to
increase our cycling mode share - dramatically reducing carbon emissions.


Robin Garwood
Aide to Council Member Cam Gordon
Cooper

From: Peter Fleck Date: Jul 22 11:48 UTC Short link

Robin,

Thanks for the information on the Transit Way history and current
ideas/plans. Yes, bicycles should equal autos in transit
infrastructure and IMHO although Minneapolis is doing some great
things in terms of bike commuting, they still don't quite get the
equal part. The plowing issue is a good example in that a lighter snow
doesn't require plowing for cars but can force bikes into the car
lanes due to the unplowed snow.  (I hope that makes sense. It's
early.)

Here are a couple of Met Council sites promoting biking. I hope to get
a blog post up and send the link along to Met Council overlords (or
whatever they are called). I think they need to be called to this task
of lighting. (But don't wait on me to get something going here,
folks.)

http://www.metrocouncil.org/directions/transit/transit2007/bikeworkApril07.htm

http://www.metrocouncil.org/directions/transit/transit2007/TLCgrantJun07.htm

From: Robin Garwood Date: Jul 23 20:56 UTC Short link

Here's an update on this project:

I've spoken to Don Pflaum, Public Works' bicycle infrastructure expert.  PW
remains invested in keeping the lighting project together with the more
expensive trail extension from 28th St to 32nd St, as they did in their CLIC
presentation (see Becca's post above to find out how well that went).

Our office has let the Mayor's office know that we strongly support putting the
lighting project back in the City's long-range capital plan, with or without
the trail extension.  We've heard that the Mayor is at least considering
putting the project back in, which is great news.  We have also heard from CM
Schiff that he is supportive of the lighting project.

If folks want to weigh in with the City about the need for lighting on this
trail, the Mayor's Office is the place to call.  If we can get this into the
Mayor's recommended budget, it will be a huge step in the right direction.


Robin Garwood
Aide to Council Member Cam Gordon
Cooper

From: Sheldon Mains Date: Jul 23 21:38 UTC Short link

I have mixed feelings on this
* The trail needs lights, security stations and improvements
* It is owned by Met Council
* It was put in as a mitigation measure for the LRT project (I think)
* The Met Council put no effort into planning the trail

Why should Minneapolis let the Met Council off the hook and provide the
lighting? The budget is tight enough as it is.

On the other hand, if Minneapolis does it, it may be done right
* at hope it would include night sky friendly lighting
	(certified==not just the word of public works)
* not the really dumb fake historic "look like gas lights" lights on Phase
III of the Greenway
* something that does not cause the glare that the Phase three lights cause.

 Sheldon
(this is definitely my opinion only--not that of any organization)
.................................
Sheldon Mains
Seward Neighborhood, Minneapolis, Minnesota
http://www.SheldonMains.com/
Blog: http://RandomStuffFromSheldon.blogspot.com/
Twitter.com: sheldonM
<email obscured>

From: Robert Francis Date: Jul 26 16:52 UTC Short link

I was just mugged on that path last night in a very dark area near 24st. I was
biking south on the path from the cedar riverside area to the greenway. Around
24st two guys came out of the darkness on either side of the road and one of
them tackled me off my bike. They then proceeded to kick and hit me after I
crashed.

They didn't take much. Not even my bike which is in pretty bad shape from the
crash. The drivetrain is messed up and the back wheel in now untrue. Though
they hurt me pretty bad and I'm also messed up from the crash.

Because it was so dark I didn't get a good look at them and I think that they
were able to ambush me because of my headlight.

That area needs better lighting and call boxes. Some approaching bikes scared
them off while they were trying for my phone. If that hadn't happened it would
have been much worse I'm sure.

From: bob Hain Date: Jul 28 15:39 UTC Short link

This is an outrage.  Complaint after complaint has been ignored by
everyone in any position of power.  They all just point fingers at each
other.  The main obstacle seems to be the Metro Transit Commission who
owns the path but doesn't care about it.  Do we all have to wait till
someone is killed on the path?  We need lights and call boxes and
we need them now!

Join me in my outrage!  Complain to MTC.  They need to hear about this.

Our community outreach person is Jill Hentgas.

<email obscured>

From: Sheldon Mains Date: Jul 28 15:46 UTC Short link

We're working at getting a rep of Met Council Transit back to SNG
Development Committee to discuss the path--I'll keep the list informed.

Sheldon
................................
Sheldon Mains, Chair
Seward Neighborhood Group
http://www.sng.org
612-618-7149, <email obscured>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Hain [mailto:bob@me.umn.edu]
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:39 AM
> To: Minneapolis Seward Neighbors Forum
> Cc: <email obscured>
> Subject: Re: [Seward] Lights on the light rail bike path
>
>
> This is an outrage.  Complaint after complaint has been
> ignored by everyone in any position of power.  They all just
> point fingers at each other.  The main obstacle seems to be
> the Metro Transit Commission who owns the path but doesn't
> care about it.  Do we all have to wait till someone is killed
> on the path?  We need lights and call boxes and we need them now!
>
> Join me in my outrage!  Complain to MTC.  They need to hear
> about this.
>
> Our community outreach person is Jill Hentgas.
>
> <email obscured>
>
> ===
> On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 10:59:19AM +1200, Robert Francis wrote:
> > I was just mugged on that path last night in a very dark
> area near 24st. I was biking south on the path from the cedar
> riverside area to the greenway. Around 24st two guys came out
> of the darkness on either side of the road and one of them
> tackled me off my bike. They then proceeded to kick and hit
> me after I crashed.
> >
> > They didn't take much. Not even my bike which is in pretty
> bad shape from the crash. The drivetrain is messed up and the
> back wheel in now untrue. Though they hurt me pretty bad and
> I'm also messed up from the crash.
> >
> > Because it was so dark I didn't get a good look at them and
> I think that they were able to ambush me because of my headlight.
> >
> > That area needs better lighting and call boxes. Some
> approaching bikes scared them off while they were trying for
> my phone. If that hadn't happened it would have been much
> worse I'm sure.
> >
> >
> > Robert Francis
> > Powderhorn Park, Minneapolis
> > Info about Robert Francis:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/3jyZVQtwTQLbcrYwzsxUdv
> >
> > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2RqoX29KX8iO3iYEF0Ma20
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> --
> bob hain
> <email obscured>
> (612) 626-9800
>
> bob Hain
> Seward, Minneapolis
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>
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From: Sheldon Mains Date: Jul 28 15:58 UTC Short link

Message below re-posted for Jill Hentges,

As I mentioned before, I'll let the list know when we have a firm date to
discuss this in the SNG Development Committee

Sheldon
................................
Sheldon Mains, Chair
Seward Neighborhood Group
http://www.sng.org
612-618-7149, <email obscured>
.......................................

Here is a note that I tried to send but because I am not a member of the
forum (yet) it was rejected. Could someone post if for me?

Thank you,
Jill

Add to the topic Lights on the light rail bike path [?]

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