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There are 9 posts — by 8 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Dan Duddingston at Mar 26 22:45 UTC

From: Tim Erickson Date: Mar 26 14:11 UTC Short link

One comment I heard last night from a staffer at city hall, was that
the St. Paul Issues Forum is dominated by about six people. He'd like
to hear from more people.

While, I disputed his perception, its something that we hear
frequently about SPIF.

In fact, so far this month alone 57 DIFFERENT people have posted
messages in SPIF. In March of 2006, we set a record (for the last 3
years) with 126 DIFFERENT participants posting messages in SPIF in a
single month.

We know that the Mayor ("Hi, Mayor Coleman!") and his staff are
watching the forum particularly close this week. I think it would be
great to hear from some of our lurkers, in particular this week. We
ought to be able to get a least 100 different voices into the forum
this month.

Here is your chance to comment on the "State of the City."

   What do you think is going well in St. Paul?
   What do you think needs improvement?
   Do you have a St. Paul story to tell, that you think might
      help illustrate the "State of the City?"

To see forum stats (must be logged in):
    http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues/stats.html

Best wishes,

Tim Erickson
St. Paul E-Democracy

From: Tom Goldstein Date: Mar 26 15:30 UTC Short link

Tim:

At the risk of possibly entering a grey (gray?) area of what's permissible on
SPIF, but assuming the rules are slightly relaxed this week, I think the
perception shared by the mayor's staffer should be embraced, especially since
you're reporting that "it's something we hear frequently about SPIF." I don't
think such comments reflect negatively on those folks, like yourself, who
brought SPIF into existence, maintain it, do the outreach, etc.--everybody who
participates in the forum owes a debt of gratitude for those efforts.

But in examining the data about participation, I don't think that citing the
number of people who participate is really that accurate a stat, because one
post by someone, even if it's just a brief rejoinder, would count as
participation. What I think your stats will tell you is that while many people
may post from time to time, there is a very short list of folks who post
frequently, and thus tend to dominate the forum. I don't know if that's good or
bad, but I think it's an arguable point as to whether civic dialogue has
increased, decreased, or stayed about the same during the years that SPIF has
existed.

Again, this is not meant as criticism of electronic list servs, the potential
value they offer, or the hard work of the volunteers who keep it all going. But
my own perspective is that every medium has its limits in usefulness, including
this one. At times, I've found SPIF to be extraordinarily valuable; in fact, I
thought enough of SPIF as a public medium that it was the first place that I
announced my candidacy for the school board in 2005 (and it's also how I "met"
several folks who I was able to recruit as volunteers in my campaign). Yet, at
other times, I've found the comments and churlishness of some people on SPIF to
be extremely disheartening. I think some great ideas have been put forward on
SPIF, and at the same time, I've watched people regularly not only trash those
ideas but trash the person putting forward the ideas. So, in some ways, SPIF
can unwittingly contribute to uncivil dialogue, because I doubt very much that
some of these extremely negative statements would ever be offered in a public
forum or face-to-face with someone, yet it's fair game to do so on this list.

Unfortunately, every medium is limited or enhanced by the personalities and
characteristics of those who participate, and ultimately the "group" drives the
dynamics of the forum. So I understand why the public perception of SPIF, or
even the perception of public officials, might be what it is. I'm not sure that
any of this matters, because no medium is perfect, but it might explain why
you're getting the feedback that you do.

Tom Goldstein
Hamline-Midway

From: Chuck Repke Date: Mar 26 16:26 UTC Short link

I'd like to agree and disagree with Tom (in that grey/gray area of this
discussion).

Having been with this list since almost the beginning and having taken
absolutely no responsibility for it, my only thought is to destroy a Lincoln
quote
"you can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please  all
of the people all of the time," ... or maybe it was Dylan.

In an open forum like this someone's "shooting down someone's ideas," is
another person's voice of reason.

I have no idea how you get the average person to not personalize a debate,
TIM...

(See how easy that works, it happens every time we use someone's name...
think about it once in a while.)

I worry every time we lose someone that someone else considers "hostile"
because I appreciate the debate.

The only way to not have six people dominate the debate is to have more
debate.

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke


In a message dated 3/26/2008 10:34:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
<email obscured> writes:

Tim:

At the risk of possibly entering a grey (gray?) area of  what's permissible
on SPIF, but assuming the rules are slightly relaxed this  week, I think the
perception shared by the mayor's staffer should be embraced,  especially since
you're reporting that "it's something we hear frequently  about SPIF." I don't
think such comments reflect negatively on those folks,  like yourself, who
brought SPIF into existence, maintain it, do the outreach,  etc.--everybody who
participates in the forum owes a debt of gratitude for  those efforts.

But in examining the data about participation, I don't  think that citing the
number of people who participate is really that accurate  a stat, because one
post by someone, even if it's just a brief rejoinder,  would count as
participation. What I think your stats will tell you is that  while many people
may
post from time to time, there is a very short list of  folks who post
frequently, and thus tend to dominate the forum. I don't know  if that's good
or bad,
but I think it's an arguable point as to whether civic  dialogue has increased,
decreased, or stayed about the same during the years  that SPIF has existed.

Again, this is not meant as criticism of  electronic list servs, the
potential value they offer, or the hard work of the  volunteers who keep it all
going.
But my own perspective is that every medium  has its limits in usefulness,
including this one. At times, I've found SPIF to  be extraordinarily valuable;
in fact, I thought enough of SPIF as a public  medium that it was the first
place that I announced my candidacy for the  school board in 2005 (and it's
also
how I "met" several folks who I was able  to recruit as volunteers in my
campaign). Yet, at other times, I've found the  comments and churlishness of
some
people on SPIF to be extremely  disheartening. I think some great ideas have
been put forward on SPIF, and at  the same time, I've watched people regularly
not only trash those ideas but  trash the person putting forward the ideas. So,
in some ways, SPIF can  unwittingly contribute to uncivil dialogue, because I
doubt very much that  some of these extremely negative statements w
ould ever be offered in a  public forum or face-to-face with someone, yet
it's fair game to do so on this  list.

Unfortunately, every medium is limited or enhanced by the  personalities and
characteristics of those who participate, and ultimately the  "group" drives
the dynamics of the forum. So I understand why the public  perception of SPIF,
or even the perception of public officials, might be what  it is. I'm not sure
that any of this matters, because no medium is perfect,  but it might explain
why you're getting the feedback that you do.

Tom  Goldstein
Hamline-Midway


----- Original Message -----
From:  "Tim Erickson" <<email obscured>>
To: "SPIF Forum"  <<email obscured>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26,  2008 9:11 AM
Subject: [SPIF] State of the City - New Voices


>  One comment I heard last night from a staffer at city hall, was that the
St.  Paul Issues Forum is dominated by about six people. He'd like to hear from
 more people.
>
> While, I disputed his perception, its something  that we hear  frequently
about SPIF.
>
> In fact, so far  this month alone 57 DIFFERENT people have posted messages
in SPIF. In March of  2006, we set a record (for the last 3 years) with 126
DIFFERENT participants  posting messages in SPIF in a single month.
>
> We know that the  Mayor ("Hi, Mayor Coleman!") and his staff are watching
the forum particularly  close this week. I think it would be great to hear from
some of our lurkers,  in particular this week. We ought to be able to get a
least 100 different  voices into the forum this month.
>
> Here is your chance to  comment on the "State of the City."
>
>   What do you  think is going well in St. Paul?
>   What do you think needs  improvement?
>   Do you have a St. Paul story to tell, that  you think might
>      help illustrate the "State of the  City?"
>
> To see forum stats (must be logged in):
>   http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues/stats.html
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tim Erickson
> St. Paul  E-Democracy
Tom Goldstein
Hamline Midway, Saint Paul
Info about Tom  Goldstein: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tomgoldstein

This  topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/329RfC05yI5y0ZGGyG4DXF
-----------------------------------------
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From: Rick Mons Date: Mar 26 17:05 UTC Short link

We've had posts from both Chuck Repke and Tom Goldstein about
participation and a separate thread on the Feedback Forum (http://
forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-feedback/messages/topics.html )
that addresses a similar point.

I think it's okay to have the discussion about participation in the
State of the City initiative remain on SPIF for a while. and as long
as it remains focused on participating in this initiative.

But if folks want to talk about general forum matters, rules, etc, it
would be preferred that discussion take place on the Feedback Forum.
That's consistent with the sentiments expressed by many of our
membership in the past



Rick Mons
Forum Manager

<email obscured> writes:

From: Guy Western Date: Mar 26 17:05 UTC Short link

I always wondered why Chuck Repke seemed to encourage my participation in this
forum, even though he doesn't particularly care for my viewpoint.  I've had an
eye on this forum for some time, and my respect for Mr. Repke as a man of
principle has grown steadily.

Aside from that, Bob and Erik have their ongoing discussion about how much they
agree or disagree with each other in Mandelbrotian detail; AHine works various
strategies to start a wave cheer that don't ever quite catch on; and Anne
Carroll periodically posts something with a lot of depth and thoughtful
pertinence which everyone deftly avoids en masse.  And there you go.

As someone who's been booted about rather capriciously by the same forum
management that is now attempting to 'gin up participation, I have to say, if
your attitude was half as tolerant as Mr. Repke's, you might not be begging
lurkers to come out of the closet.

Are we "off-topic" yet, Tim?

-----Original Message-----
>From: <email obscured>
>Sent: Mar 26, 2008 11:26 AM
>To: <email obscured>
>Subject: Re: [SPIF] State of the City - New Voices
>
>I'd like to agree and disagree with Tom (in that grey/gray area of this
>discussion).
>
>Having been with this list since almost the beginning and having taken
>absolutely no responsibility for it, my only thought is to destroy a Lincoln
quote
>"you can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please  all
>of the people all of the time," ... or maybe it was Dylan.
>
>In an open forum like this someone's "shooting down someone's ideas," is
>another person's voice of reason.
>
>I have no idea how you get the average person to not personalize a debate,
>TIM...
>
>(See how easy that works, it happens every time we use someone's name...
>think about it once in a while.)
>
>I worry every time we lose someone that someone else considers "hostile"
>because I appreciate the debate.
>
>The only way to not have six people dominate the debate is to have more
>debate.
>
>JMONTOMEPPOF
>
>Chuck Repke
>
>
>In a message dated 3/26/2008 10:34:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
><email obscured> writes:
>
>Tim:
>
>At the risk of possibly entering a grey (gray?) area of  what's permissible
>on SPIF, but assuming the rules are slightly relaxed this  week, I think the
>perception shared by the mayor's staffer should be embraced,  especially since
>you're reporting that "it's something we hear frequently  about SPIF." I don't
>think such comments reflect negatively on those folks,  like yourself, who
>brought SPIF into existence, maintain it, do the outreach,  etc.--everybody
who
>participates in the forum owes a debt of gratitude for  those efforts.
>
>But in examining the data about participation, I don't  think that citing the
>number of people who participate is really that accurate  a stat, because one
>post by someone, even if it's just a brief rejoinder,  would count as
>participation. What I think your stats will tell you is that  while many
people may
>post from time to time, there is a very short list of  folks who post
>frequently, and thus tend to dominate the forum. I don't know  if that's good
or bad,
>but I think it's an arguable point as to whether civic  dialogue has
increased,
>decreased, or stayed about the same during the years  that SPIF has existed.
>
>Again, this is not meant as criticism of  electronic list servs, the
>potential value they offer, or the hard work of the  volunteers who keep it
all going.
>But my own perspective is that every medium  has its limits in usefulness,
>including this one. At times, I've found SPIF to  be extraordinarily valuable;
>in fact, I thought enough of SPIF as a public  medium that it was the first
>place that I announced my candidacy for the  school board in 2005 (and it's
also
>how I "met" several folks who I was able  to recruit as volunteers in my
>campaign). Yet, at other times, I've found the  comments and churlishness of
some
>people on SPIF to be extremely  disheartening. I think some great ideas have
>been put forward on SPIF, and at  the same time, I've watched people regularly
>not only trash those ideas but  trash the person putting forward the ideas.
So,
>in some ways, SPIF can  unwittingly contribute to uncivil dialogue, because I
>doubt very much that  some of these extremely negative statements w
>ould ever be offered in a  public forum or face-to-face with someone, yet
>it's fair game to do so on this  list.
>
>Unfortunately, every medium is limited or enhanced by the  personalities and
>characteristics of those who participate, and ultimately the  "group" drives
>the dynamics of the forum. So I understand why the public  perception of SPIF,
>or even the perception of public officials, might be what  it is. I'm not sure
>that any of this matters, because no medium is perfect,  but it might explain
>why you're getting the feedback that you do.
>
>Tom  Goldstein
>Hamline-Midway
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From:  "Tim Erickson" <<email obscured>>
>To: "SPIF Forum"  <<email obscured>>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 26,  2008 9:11 AM
>Subject: [SPIF] State of the City - New Voices
>
>
>>  One comment I heard last night from a staffer at city hall, was that the
>St.  Paul Issues Forum is dominated by about six people. He'd like to hear
from
> more people.
>>
>> While, I disputed his perception, its something  that we hear  frequently
>about SPIF.
>>
>> In fact, so far  this month alone 57 DIFFERENT people have posted messages
>in SPIF. In March of  2006, we set a record (for the last 3 years) with 126
>DIFFERENT participants  posting messages in SPIF in a single month.
>>
>> We know that the  Mayor ("Hi, Mayor Coleman!") and his staff are watching
>the forum particularly  close this week. I think it would be great to hear
from
>some of our lurkers,  in particular this week. We ought to be able to get a
>least 100 different  voices into the forum this month.
>>
>> Here is your chance to  comment on the "State of the City."
>>
>>   What do you  think is going well in St. Paul?
>>   What do you think needs  improvement?
>>   Do you have a St. Paul story to tell, that  you think might
>>      help illustrate the "State of the  City?"
>>
>> To see forum stats (must be logged in):
>>   http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues/stats.html
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Tim Erickson
>> St. Paul  E-Democracy
>Tom Goldstein
>Hamline Midway, Saint Paul
>Info about Tom  Goldstein: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tomgoldstein
>
>This  topic's messages may be viewed at:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/329RfC05yI5y0ZGGyG4DXF
>-----------------------------------------
>To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
>To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
>in  subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
>More info about St. Paul Issues Forum:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues
>
>E-Democracy.Org rules:  http://e-democracy.org/rules
>-----------------------------------------
>Technical  assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>Citizens  Guide to St.  Paul
>http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
>
>Questions  about rules violations? Send complaints and items for
>investigation to:  <email obscured>
>
>
>
>
>
>**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
>Home.
>(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
>
>Chuck Repke
>West 7th, Saint Paul
>Info about Chuck Repke: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/chuckrepke
>
>This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7GSxoeXR16oFfE8fdNsZ3c
>-----------------------------------------
>  To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
>  in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
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>
>  E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
>-----------------------------------------
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>
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>http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
>
>Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and items for investigation
to: <email obscured>

From: Mike Schoenberg Date: Mar 26 18:23 UTC Short link

That two post limit kind of gets in the way. You know I might have
something important to say, but it would be a third post. So I hesitate
to make even one. Don't want to get on that slippery slope.

Speaking of slippery slopes, I find myself holding my words back for
fear I might offend. It is not often that ideas are attacked here. Its
people. And I rather avoid being either the attacker and attackee.

Third, its a matter of time. I'd actually have to attend to the forum
and what is being written about what I posted, if I post. And then two
posts are not enough.

Mike Schoenberg
MacGroveland

Rick Mons wrote:
> We've had posts from both Chuck Repke and Tom Goldstein about
> participation and a separate thread on the Feedback Forum (http://
> forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-feedback/messages/topics.html )
> that addresses a similar point.
>
> I think it's okay to have the discussion about participation in the
> State of the City initiative remain on SPIF for a while. and as long
> as it remains focused on participating in this initiative.
>
> But if folks want to talk about general forum matters, rules, etc, it
> would be preferred that discussion take place on the Feedback Forum.
> That's consistent with the sentiments expressed by many of our
> membership in the past
>
>
>
> Rick Mons
> Forum Manager
>
> <email obscured> writes:
>
>
>> At the risk of possibly entering a grey (gray?) area of  what's
>> permissible
>> on SPIF, but assuming the rules are slightly relaxed this  week, I
>> think the
>> perception shared by the mayor's staffer should be embraced,
>> especially since
>> you're reporting that "it's something we hear frequently  about SPIF."
>>
>
>
>
>>>> "Tim Erickson" <<email obscured>> wrote:
>>>> One comment I heard last night from a staffer at city hall, was
>>>> that the St.
>>>> Paul Issues Forum is dominated by about six people. He'd like to
>>>> hear from  more people.
>>>> While, I disputed his perception, its something  that we hear
>>>> frequently about SPIF.
>>>>
>
>
> Rick Mons
> Tanglewood n'hood, Shoreview
> Info about Rick Mons: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/rickmons
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4O2QHavso2zqT63YbRy6vw
> -----------------------------------------
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>   To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
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>
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>   http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues
>
>   E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
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>
>  Citizens Guide to St. Paul
> http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
>
> Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and items for investigation
to: <email obscured>
>
>

From: Rick Mons Date: Mar 26 18:42 UTC Short link

On Mar 26, 2008, at 1:23 PM, Mike Schoenberg wrote:
> That two post limit kind of gets in the way. You know I might have
> something important to say, but it would be a third post.

As announced at the beginning of this initiative:

In order to facilitate this process and permit folks to continue (or
start) new discussions, we're going to temporarily increase the
posting limit to four posts per 24 hours.  HOWEVER, we're asking that
you follow the honor system: No more than two posts per 24-hours
should be in regard to this "State of the City" venture ... and no
more than two posts should be about unrelated SPIF issues.  (No,
we're not going to monitor the "two-per-subject" guideline but ask
that you observe it.)

Rick Mons
Forum Manager

From: Dave Shove Date: Mar 26 22:24 UTC Short link

People tell me all the time I am "different" - really "different". So
perhaps one really different person posting now and then will fulfil the
Difference Quota.

Always happy to help.

David Shove
The difference that makes the difference




On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Tim Erickson wrote:

> One comment I heard last night from a staffer at city hall, was that
> the St. Paul Issues Forum is dominated by about six people. He'd like
> to hear from more people.
>
> While, I disputed his perception, its something that we hear
> frequently about SPIF.
>
> In fact, so far this month alone 57 DIFFERENT people have posted
> messages in SPIF. In March of 2006, we set a record (for the last 3
> years) with 126 DIFFERENT participants posting messages in SPIF in a
> single month.
>
> We know that the Mayor ("Hi, Mayor Coleman!") and his staff are
> watching the forum particularly close this week. I think it would be
> great to hear from some of our lurkers, in particular this week. We
> ought to be able to get a least 100 different voices into the forum
> this month.
>
> Here is your chance to comment on the "State of the City."
>
>    What do you think is going well in St. Paul?
>    What do you think needs improvement?
>    Do you have a St. Paul story to tell, that you think might
>       help illustrate the "State of the City?"
>
> To see forum stats (must be logged in):
>     http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues/stats.html
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tim Erickson
> St. Paul E-Democracy
>
>
>
> Tim Erickson
> Hamline Midway
> Info about Tim Erickson: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/timerickson
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5ZN5vEgI16Cj4MwdLdGUJC
> -----------------------------------------
>   To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
>   To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
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>
>   More info about St. Paul Issues Forum:
>   http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues
>
>   E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
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>
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> http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
>
> Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and items for investigation
to: <email obscured>
>

From: Dan Duddingston Date: Mar 26 22:45 UTC Short link

Yes, the forum seems to be dominated by 6 - 10 members. That's fine. They have
a whole lot to say !

I'm one of the "lurkers".

BTW, " Hi Mayor Coleman ! "

Posting

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