With such a long, complicated article, you should provide an executive summary
so readers might know the essentials. Masks are common sense. Of course,
quality matters.
Sent from iPad
John Ferman
Minneapolis, MN
My doctor says I have a malformed public-duty gland and as a result have a
severe morale fibre deficiency, so I should not be expected to save the world."
> On Mar 14, 2021, at 8:43 PM, David Tilsen <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8
>
> David Tilsen
> 612-281-8576
> ________________________________
> From: Minneapolis Issues Forum <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org> on behalf of
Doug Mann <<email obscured>>
> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2021 8:30:25 PM
> To: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org>
> Subject: [Mpls] The mayor's mask mandate and other covid 19 measures that do
more harm than good
>
> Are surgical masks effective in significantly reducing transmission of SARS
cov-2 and other respiratory viruses?
>
> There has been a consensus supported by a large body of evidence that
surgical masks do not significantly reduce transmission of influenza and other
seasonal respiratory viruses. They are airborne viruses that can stay aloft in
the air for hours under optimum conditions which exist during the flu season.
>
> Two Canadian arbitration decisions in 2015 and 2018 found that scientific
evidence did not support mask requirements for nurses in hospitals in Ontario
Canada to stop the spread of the flu. Former New York Times reporter Alex
Berenson reported that hospitals in Ontario, Canada attempted to coerce nurses
to get flu vaccines by requiring them to wear a surgical mask at all times on
the job if they don't agree to be vaccinated. [source Unreported Truths About
Covid 19 and Lockdowns, part 3: Masks]
>
> In December 2013 the nurses union filed a grievance. In September 2015 the
arbitrator, James Hayes issued a 136 page ruling that said hospitals cannot
require nurses to wear masks to prevent transmission of the flu. According to
the decision, the "scientific evidence said to support the [mask mandate] on
patient safety grounds is insufficient." (i.b.i.d)
>
> Even the theory that masks prevent droplet transmission was unproven, Hayes
found
>
> "At best, there appears to be limited evidence of what to a lay person may
seem obvious: a mask may prevent the spread of large droplets. Two literature
reviews refer specifically to "limited data" and to the limited evidence base
supporting the efficacy and effectiveness of face masks to reduce influenza via
transmission" i.b.i.d.
>
> He went on to quote one of the experts the nurses offered:
>
> "Coughing, sneezing and talking produce a wide range of particle sizes, all
of which can be infectious. The smaller-size particles will easily bypass the
filter and face piece of a surgical mask-- and are likely to remain airborne
for long periods of time." i.b.i.d.
>
> Some Ontario hospitals kept trying to make nurses wear masks. The nurses
objected and won again. In a September 6, 2018 decision, arbitrator William
Kaplan called the evidence in favor of mask mandates "insufficient, inadequate
and completely unpersuasive." Later in his ruling, he wrote
>
> "The preponderance of the masking evidence is compelling -- surgical and
procedural masks are extremely limited in terms of source control: they do not
prevent the transmission of the influenza virus." i.b.i.d
>
> Prior to April 3, 2020 the CDC and experts who were given a platform by
medical journals and mass media outlets explained that SARS cov-2 appears to be
transmitted much like influenza and other viruses, and that wearing masks by
the general public won't have much effect on the transmission of the dread
virus.
>
> However, in the meantime hospital workers were reportedly demanding mask
mandates as personal protective equipment and source control. Given the
assumption that the SARS cov-2 virus was extremely lethal, even a little,
uncertain protection was better none, or so the argument goes.
>
> The effectiveness of masks and social distancing are predicated on large
droplets playing a very big role in transmission of the SARS cov-2 virus and
small, airborne droplets, eg aerosols playing a small role in transmission of
SARS cov-2.
>
> Masks are promoted as a means of "source control." However, If that is the
case, why are masks not considered to be effective in protecting the wearer?
>
> One reason to not impose a mask mandate for personal protection is a
requirement of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration to conduct an
assessment for mask tolerance. An evaluation of mask tolerance for the entire
workforce would be a huge and expensive undertaking that would hinder
implementation and enforcement of mask mandates in the workforce. That is a
reason to say that masks are only effective as source control.
>
> One downside of mandating masks from the standpoint of workers is that health
impairments caused by masks can be subtle and cumulative. One is forced to make
a choice to mask up and keep your job, or quit your job or get fired for
insubordination by refusing to wear a mask. Mask mandates have not provided
for mask tolerance evaluations and mask exemption passes to overcome the
objection to allowing any non-compliance, including for valid health reasons
because someone can falsely claim to be exempt because masking impairs their
health.
>
> Minnesota and other states had a surge of hospitalizations in the waning
weeks and months of 2020 despite mask mandates. Did masks on top of social
distancing and the most draconian lockdown to date have much effect on
transmission of the virus and covid 19 hospital admissions and deaths?
>
> The speed of transmission of respiratory viruses that are new to a population
or a large part of the population depends on how much of the population are
susceptible hosts and vectors for the virus and on environmental conditions,
e.g., humidity, closed ventilation systems in the winter, etc. We saw covid 19
hospitalizations and deaths in Minnesota peak in late December and decline
afterwards with favorable environmental conditions for viral propagation.
>
> There is a famed R factor, the rate of viral multiplication, with a value of
one signifying that one person passes on the virus to one other person. If the
R factor falls below one, the number of infections will decline, and with fewer
infections you will eventually see fewer hospitalizations and deaths.
>
> Environmental conditions remained favorable for propagation of the virus as
the R factor fell below one in December 2020 in Minnesota. Vaccinations were
not yet underway. Apparently, after people got infected with the virus and
recovered, they might get reinfected, but even then few if any become spreaders
of the virus again. Their immune system reacts more quickly to an infection and
keeps the viral load below the level where someone will shed live virus.
>
> Near the end of January 2021 Minnesota's chief epidemiologist Osterholm
argued that there should be no relaxation of mask mandates and social
distancing because of an impending wave of infection "over the next 8 weeks"
because of new viral strains that might be more contagious and / or more
deadly. It was possible that immunity acquired naturally from getting infected
and from vaccines would offer little or no protection from the new viral
strains. However, the number of hospitalizations and deaths have been
declining.
>
> Mask mandates, social distancing and lockdown measures persist after the
death toll falls below epidemic levels based on a prediction, a worst case
scenario that is not becoming a reality,
>
> One feature of covid 19 is that the death toll is skewed heavily toward the
very old, with those 70 years and older accounting for 90% of deaths. The
median age at time of death is in excess of 80 years old. A nursing home
residents, less than 1% of the general population account for more than 40% of
the covid 19 deaths.
>
> Vaccination of the most vulnerable people is nearly completed. How much
protection do the vaccines confer? We hear that the covid 19 vaccines are 95%
effective, but that doesn't mean that they are 95% effective in stopping
transmission of the virus nor 95% effective in preventing covid 19 deaths. We
are told that they are 95% effective in reducing the severity of symptoms.
However, even 50% effectiveness in preventing transmission and deaths in the
population most at risk of severe illness and death would mean the end of the
pandemic.
>
> Recently, Dr. Anthony Fauci defined "herd immunity" as a situation where a
high enough percentage of people get vaccinated so that the virus cannot
multiply fast enough to cause a major outbreak. Apparently natural immunity
acquired via getting infected with the SARS cov 2 virus and recovering from it
is not a very durable nor robust kind of immunity. However, past epidemics and
pandemics were over before a vaccine was developed.
>
> Flu vaccinations for any given strain are maybe 50% effective in preventing
transmission and severe illness for up to one year. Are doomsday forecasts by
champions of the mRNA vaccines preparing us for a worst case scenario in which
the vaccines are merely a lot less effective than flu shots, but might even
backfire, making people who get vaccinated more susceptible to getting very
ill, becoming contagious and dying?
>
> A problem with mask mandates and lockdowns ordered by Mayor Frey is that they
are not victimless public health measures. There is collateral damage. Negative
stress from poverty and social isolation can shorten lives, not counting deaths
in the short term because of an increased number of suicides and delays in
treatment of cancer, myocardial infarctions, etc.
>
> In my opinion, masks mandates in and of themselves do more harm than good.
Masks also serve as talismans, lucky charms that help to ramp up the level of
panic and of support for lockdowns, for executive orders and laws that infringe
on 1st and 4th amendment rights, the right to assemble for political or
religious reasons and freedom of movement and association (for any purpose that
is not unlawful), privacy rights, etc. The term lockdown itself is
traditionally used in prisons. The US has become an open air prison.
>
> Another way to increase the covid 19 terror level is to not allow early
treatment of SARS cov-2 infections that might prevent hospitalizations and keep
people alive. Most covid 19 deaths are people over 65 years old, many in
nursing homes. Why bother treating them?
>
> During the 2009 epidemic, a virus that caused lung inflammatory and secondary
bacterial infections was treated with antibiotics after a lot of young people
with the viral infection died of a secondary viral infection. Bacterial lung
infections are generally not treated unless they progress to a point where they
begin to cause respiratory distress. With a virus that causes lung
inflammation, a bacterial infection can progress very quickly.
> Even in March 2021, the CDC and FDA insist that there is no approved early
treatment for SARS cov-2 infections (even on an emergency use basis). Doctors
who offer early treatment for covid 19 are risking their license to practice
medicine. Antibiotics, Vitamin D, Ivermecton and hydroxychloroquine and zinc
are allowed in countries where a majority of the world's population lives. The
US has 4% of the world's population and 22% of the recorded covid 19 deaths.
Covid 19 mortality in the US is an order of magnitude greater than in countries
that do not prohibit nor discourage early treatment and where a majority of the
world's population resides. In the US, we are expected to treat SARS cov-2 as
if it were a common cold, then seek admission to a hospital when the illness
has often progressed beyond the point where there is any realistic hope for
survival .
> We are living in a neoliberal dystopia where liberty is given up for promises
of greater safety by a political establishment that is undermining our safety
as they strip us of our civil rights. The mask mandate is not used to promote
safety but to promote genocidal policies masquerading as covid 19 public health
policies.
>
> Do the citizens of Minneapolis have a mayor candidate who opposes, even
questions the desirability of covid 19 policies that cancel your civil rights,
crash the economy and prevent you from getting early treatment of SARS cov-2?
The answer is no, so far as I know, unless I throw my hat in the ring.
>
> -Doug Mann, Folwell neighborhood
>
>
> Doug Mann
> Folwell, Minneapolis
> About/contact Doug Mann: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dougmann1
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4D9hIuRVUVTWBcxAswCMM1
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
>
>
> David Tilsen
> Powderhorn, Minneapolis
> About/contact David Tilsen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/davidtilsen
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5IujEy6eFpO5ogk3LLRxbY
so readers might know the essentials. Masks are common sense. Of course,
quality matters.
Sent from iPad
John Ferman
Minneapolis, MN
My doctor says I have a malformed public-duty gland and as a result have a
severe morale fibre deficiency, so I should not be expected to save the world."
> On Mar 14, 2021, at 8:43 PM, David Tilsen <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8
>
> David Tilsen
> 612-281-8576
> ________________________________
> From: Minneapolis Issues Forum <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org> on behalf of
Doug Mann <<email obscured>>
> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2021 8:30:25 PM
> To: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org>
> Subject: [Mpls] The mayor's mask mandate and other covid 19 measures that do
more harm than good
>
> Are surgical masks effective in significantly reducing transmission of SARS
cov-2 and other respiratory viruses?
>
> There has been a consensus supported by a large body of evidence that
surgical masks do not significantly reduce transmission of influenza and other
seasonal respiratory viruses. They are airborne viruses that can stay aloft in
the air for hours under optimum conditions which exist during the flu season.
>
> Two Canadian arbitration decisions in 2015 and 2018 found that scientific
evidence did not support mask requirements for nurses in hospitals in Ontario
Canada to stop the spread of the flu. Former New York Times reporter Alex
Berenson reported that hospitals in Ontario, Canada attempted to coerce nurses
to get flu vaccines by requiring them to wear a surgical mask at all times on
the job if they don't agree to be vaccinated. [source Unreported Truths About
Covid 19 and Lockdowns, part 3: Masks]
>
> In December 2013 the nurses union filed a grievance. In September 2015 the
arbitrator, James Hayes issued a 136 page ruling that said hospitals cannot
require nurses to wear masks to prevent transmission of the flu. According to
the decision, the "scientific evidence said to support the [mask mandate] on
patient safety grounds is insufficient." (i.b.i.d)
>
> Even the theory that masks prevent droplet transmission was unproven, Hayes
found
>
> "At best, there appears to be limited evidence of what to a lay person may
seem obvious: a mask may prevent the spread of large droplets. Two literature
reviews refer specifically to "limited data" and to the limited evidence base
supporting the efficacy and effectiveness of face masks to reduce influenza via
transmission" i.b.i.d.
>
> He went on to quote one of the experts the nurses offered:
>
> "Coughing, sneezing and talking produce a wide range of particle sizes, all
of which can be infectious. The smaller-size particles will easily bypass the
filter and face piece of a surgical mask-- and are likely to remain airborne
for long periods of time." i.b.i.d.
>
> Some Ontario hospitals kept trying to make nurses wear masks. The nurses
objected and won again. In a September 6, 2018 decision, arbitrator William
Kaplan called the evidence in favor of mask mandates "insufficient, inadequate
and completely unpersuasive." Later in his ruling, he wrote
>
> "The preponderance of the masking evidence is compelling -- surgical and
procedural masks are extremely limited in terms of source control: they do not
prevent the transmission of the influenza virus." i.b.i.d
>
> Prior to April 3, 2020 the CDC and experts who were given a platform by
medical journals and mass media outlets explained that SARS cov-2 appears to be
transmitted much like influenza and other viruses, and that wearing masks by
the general public won't have much effect on the transmission of the dread
virus.
>
> However, in the meantime hospital workers were reportedly demanding mask
mandates as personal protective equipment and source control. Given the
assumption that the SARS cov-2 virus was extremely lethal, even a little,
uncertain protection was better none, or so the argument goes.
>
> The effectiveness of masks and social distancing are predicated on large
droplets playing a very big role in transmission of the SARS cov-2 virus and
small, airborne droplets, eg aerosols playing a small role in transmission of
SARS cov-2.
>
> Masks are promoted as a means of "source control." However, If that is the
case, why are masks not considered to be effective in protecting the wearer?
>
> One reason to not impose a mask mandate for personal protection is a
requirement of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration to conduct an
assessment for mask tolerance. An evaluation of mask tolerance for the entire
workforce would be a huge and expensive undertaking that would hinder
implementation and enforcement of mask mandates in the workforce. That is a
reason to say that masks are only effective as source control.
>
> One downside of mandating masks from the standpoint of workers is that health
impairments caused by masks can be subtle and cumulative. One is forced to make
a choice to mask up and keep your job, or quit your job or get fired for
insubordination by refusing to wear a mask. Mask mandates have not provided
for mask tolerance evaluations and mask exemption passes to overcome the
objection to allowing any non-compliance, including for valid health reasons
because someone can falsely claim to be exempt because masking impairs their
health.
>
> Minnesota and other states had a surge of hospitalizations in the waning
weeks and months of 2020 despite mask mandates. Did masks on top of social
distancing and the most draconian lockdown to date have much effect on
transmission of the virus and covid 19 hospital admissions and deaths?
>
> The speed of transmission of respiratory viruses that are new to a population
or a large part of the population depends on how much of the population are
susceptible hosts and vectors for the virus and on environmental conditions,
e.g., humidity, closed ventilation systems in the winter, etc. We saw covid 19
hospitalizations and deaths in Minnesota peak in late December and decline
afterwards with favorable environmental conditions for viral propagation.
>
> There is a famed R factor, the rate of viral multiplication, with a value of
one signifying that one person passes on the virus to one other person. If the
R factor falls below one, the number of infections will decline, and with fewer
infections you will eventually see fewer hospitalizations and deaths.
>
> Environmental conditions remained favorable for propagation of the virus as
the R factor fell below one in December 2020 in Minnesota. Vaccinations were
not yet underway. Apparently, after people got infected with the virus and
recovered, they might get reinfected, but even then few if any become spreaders
of the virus again. Their immune system reacts more quickly to an infection and
keeps the viral load below the level where someone will shed live virus.
>
> Near the end of January 2021 Minnesota's chief epidemiologist Osterholm
argued that there should be no relaxation of mask mandates and social
distancing because of an impending wave of infection "over the next 8 weeks"
because of new viral strains that might be more contagious and / or more
deadly. It was possible that immunity acquired naturally from getting infected
and from vaccines would offer little or no protection from the new viral
strains. However, the number of hospitalizations and deaths have been
declining.
>
> Mask mandates, social distancing and lockdown measures persist after the
death toll falls below epidemic levels based on a prediction, a worst case
scenario that is not becoming a reality,
>
> One feature of covid 19 is that the death toll is skewed heavily toward the
very old, with those 70 years and older accounting for 90% of deaths. The
median age at time of death is in excess of 80 years old. A nursing home
residents, less than 1% of the general population account for more than 40% of
the covid 19 deaths.
>
> Vaccination of the most vulnerable people is nearly completed. How much
protection do the vaccines confer? We hear that the covid 19 vaccines are 95%
effective, but that doesn't mean that they are 95% effective in stopping
transmission of the virus nor 95% effective in preventing covid 19 deaths. We
are told that they are 95% effective in reducing the severity of symptoms.
However, even 50% effectiveness in preventing transmission and deaths in the
population most at risk of severe illness and death would mean the end of the
pandemic.
>
> Recently, Dr. Anthony Fauci defined "herd immunity" as a situation where a
high enough percentage of people get vaccinated so that the virus cannot
multiply fast enough to cause a major outbreak. Apparently natural immunity
acquired via getting infected with the SARS cov 2 virus and recovering from it
is not a very durable nor robust kind of immunity. However, past epidemics and
pandemics were over before a vaccine was developed.
>
> Flu vaccinations for any given strain are maybe 50% effective in preventing
transmission and severe illness for up to one year. Are doomsday forecasts by
champions of the mRNA vaccines preparing us for a worst case scenario in which
the vaccines are merely a lot less effective than flu shots, but might even
backfire, making people who get vaccinated more susceptible to getting very
ill, becoming contagious and dying?
>
> A problem with mask mandates and lockdowns ordered by Mayor Frey is that they
are not victimless public health measures. There is collateral damage. Negative
stress from poverty and social isolation can shorten lives, not counting deaths
in the short term because of an increased number of suicides and delays in
treatment of cancer, myocardial infarctions, etc.
>
> In my opinion, masks mandates in and of themselves do more harm than good.
Masks also serve as talismans, lucky charms that help to ramp up the level of
panic and of support for lockdowns, for executive orders and laws that infringe
on 1st and 4th amendment rights, the right to assemble for political or
religious reasons and freedom of movement and association (for any purpose that
is not unlawful), privacy rights, etc. The term lockdown itself is
traditionally used in prisons. The US has become an open air prison.
>
> Another way to increase the covid 19 terror level is to not allow early
treatment of SARS cov-2 infections that might prevent hospitalizations and keep
people alive. Most covid 19 deaths are people over 65 years old, many in
nursing homes. Why bother treating them?
>
> During the 2009 epidemic, a virus that caused lung inflammatory and secondary
bacterial infections was treated with antibiotics after a lot of young people
with the viral infection died of a secondary viral infection. Bacterial lung
infections are generally not treated unless they progress to a point where they
begin to cause respiratory distress. With a virus that causes lung
inflammation, a bacterial infection can progress very quickly.
> Even in March 2021, the CDC and FDA insist that there is no approved early
treatment for SARS cov-2 infections (even on an emergency use basis). Doctors
who offer early treatment for covid 19 are risking their license to practice
medicine. Antibiotics, Vitamin D, Ivermecton and hydroxychloroquine and zinc
are allowed in countries where a majority of the world's population lives. The
US has 4% of the world's population and 22% of the recorded covid 19 deaths.
Covid 19 mortality in the US is an order of magnitude greater than in countries
that do not prohibit nor discourage early treatment and where a majority of the
world's population resides. In the US, we are expected to treat SARS cov-2 as
if it were a common cold, then seek admission to a hospital when the illness
has often progressed beyond the point where there is any realistic hope for
survival .
> We are living in a neoliberal dystopia where liberty is given up for promises
of greater safety by a political establishment that is undermining our safety
as they strip us of our civil rights. The mask mandate is not used to promote
safety but to promote genocidal policies masquerading as covid 19 public health
policies.
>
> Do the citizens of Minneapolis have a mayor candidate who opposes, even
questions the desirability of covid 19 policies that cancel your civil rights,
crash the economy and prevent you from getting early treatment of SARS cov-2?
The answer is no, so far as I know, unless I throw my hat in the ring.
>
> -Doug Mann, Folwell neighborhood
>
>
> Doug Mann
> Folwell, Minneapolis
> About/contact Doug Mann: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dougmann1
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4D9hIuRVUVTWBcxAswCMM1
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
>
>
> David Tilsen
> Powderhorn, Minneapolis
> About/contact David Tilsen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/davidtilsen
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5IujEy6eFpO5ogk3LLRxbY
