All posts in the topic So who's right Coleman or Thune on 24 hr health clubs (Short link)
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- There are 45 posts — by 21 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Jamie Delton at May 07 12:13 UTC
Hi All, I was going to post this earlier, but I wanted to wait and see if anyone here would post it, as it is a major discussion over at the Pioneer Press with over 107 comments to the story. On Friday, the city won a court victory in its crackdown on 24 hour health clubs because they don't have trained medical workers on-site constantly. It seems St. Paul has one of the most restrictive ordinances in the nation according to the story. The inspectors said they were enforcing an ordinance — which stems from 1980s sex-club crackdowns — requiring fitness clubs to have a CPR-trained person "on duty" at all times. A link to the Pioneer Press story: http://www.twincities.com/ci_8975738 It seems that our mayor, Chris Coleman and Dave Thune are at opposite ends of this issue. Chris Coleman says, "We're like the only city anywhere that doesn't allow these things," he said. "It can't be OK everywhere else and be somehow more risky in St. Paul." The St. Paul Area Chamber of Commerce also supports Coleman’s opinion. Dave Thune said, "Let him try to get four votes. If they want to fight on this thing, I will get neighborhood groups and district councils who have suffered at the hands of adult bookstores to fight back." Minneapolis has seven of these fitness clubs. So who is correct, Chris Coleman or Dave Thune? Sincerely, John Krenik Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
You have to admire a crusader like Mr. Krenik standing up for his rights to
keep 24-hr. health care, but isn't health care costly enough in this country
already?
Putting aside the argument that the requirement of a CPR trained individual at a "health club" was originally placed in the ordinance to stop the proliferation of massage parlors/adult bookstores posing as "health clubs" - this is a CONSUMER SAFETY ISSUE: If I am exercising anywhere (I belong to Curves), it won't be where I likely might be alone in the facility (no staff), then suffering an injury or a heart attack and dragging my lifeless body to a "panic button" in order to summon help. There must be statistics (ohsa?) on these facilities regarding injuries or deaths there (with no supervision/staff). Even if there are no reports of any deaths or seriously harm - I would hate to be the first one..... Gloria Bogen West Side = Best Side <email obscured><mailto:<email obscured>> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Krenik<mailto:<email obscured>> To: St. Paul Issues Forum<mailto:<email obscured>> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: [SPIF] So who's right Coleman or Thune on 24 hr health clubs Hi All, I was going to post this earlier, but I wanted to wait and see if anyone here would post it, as it is a major discussion over at the Pioneer Press with over 107 comments to the story. On Friday, the city won a court victory in its crackdown on 24 hour health clubs because they don't have trained medical workers on-site constantly. It seems St. Paul has one of the most restrictive ordinances in the nation according to the story. The inspectors said they were enforcing an ordinance which stems from 1980s sex-club crackdowns requiring fitness clubs to have a CPR-trained person "on duty" at all times. A link to the Pioneer Press story: http://www.twincities.com/ci_8975738<http://www.twincities.com/ci_8975738> It seems that our mayor, Chris Coleman and Dave Thune are at opposite ends of this issue. Chris Coleman says, "We're like the only city anywhere that doesn't allow these things," he said. "It can't be OK everywhere else and be somehow more risky in St. Paul." The St. Paul Area Chamber of Commerce also supports Colemans opinion. Dave Thune said, "Let him try to get four votes. If they want to fight on this thing, I will get neighborhood groups and district councils who have suffered at the hands of adult bookstores to fight back." Minneapolis has seven of these fitness clubs. So who is correct, Chris Coleman or Dave Thune? Sincerely, John Krenik Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota John Krenik Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota Info about John Krenik: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/johnkrenik<http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/johnkrenik> This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4g1bLnacYfiDyfHEUHiDSf<http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4g1bLnacYfiDyfHEUHiDSf> ----------------------------------------- To post, send your message to: <email obscured><mailto:<email obscured>> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," in subject line and send to: <email obscured><mailto:<email obscured>> More info about St. Paul Issues Forum: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues<http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules<http://e-democracy.org/rules> ----------------------------------------- Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net<http://onlinegroups.net/> Citizens Guide to St. Paul http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul<http://e-democracyorg/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul> Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and items for investigation to: <email obscured><mailto:<email obscured>>
> If I am exercising anywhere (I belong to Curves), it won't be where I likely
might be alone in the facility (no staff), then suffering an injury or a heart
attack and dragging my lifeless body to a "panic button" in order to summon
help. There must be statistics (ohsa?) on these facilities regarding injuries
or deaths there (with no supervision/staff). Even if there are no reports of
any deaths or seriously harm - I would hate to be the first one.....
In this case, you don't go when you would put yourself in this
situation. belonging to a club that is open 24 hours doesn't mean you
have to go at all hours of the day.
John Harris
webber-camden, mpls
I belong to the Anytime Fitness near Davern and W. 7th. Basically, my monthly
membership fee gives me access to all the workout equipment I could ever want.
I don't have to purchase the equipment or find a place in my house to keep it
I am guessing that people have very short memories of what we were dealing with in "health clubs" just a few years ago. The typical "health club" that had no professional staff had a name like... Racquel's Rapp, or the Playboy Club or Sussie's Sauna. These clubs did have staff members that frequently would offer healthful ways to reduce stress by giving "private workouts" or "healing massages" behind closed doors. The ordinance was written to stop these kinds of activities from occurring in our neighborhoods. So, for those of you who think you don't need the ordinance to protect your community, I would encourage you to call your council member and ask that your neighborhood be allowed to have massage parlors and other nonprofessional health clubs, health spa's and sauna's. I would be pleased to assist you in drafting the language that would allow the streets in your neighborhood to have them without my neighborhood having to put up with that crap again. One of the benefits that you will get is other entrepreneurs who will work the streets and all of their customers. But, don't assume for a second that those of us who have had to fight to protect our neighborhoods from this kind of crap are going to just roll over because you are to cheep to go to a gym that has staff. Just My Opinion Not Those Of My Employers Past Present Or Future Chuck Repke **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
I am not sure how many of us forgot about the city's issues with "Health Clubs". I certainly did not. These workout facilities are nothing like those Health Clubs. Anyone who connects the two are stretching the issues. One group was a setting for "massages" and were a front for prostitution. The other is a work out facility. I don't know how anyone could argue that Anytime Fitness or any other type of fitness club is anything like the former. If we are so concerned about ensuring someone who is trained in CPR is on staff when they are open, how about changing the rule to making sure there are a couple of AEDs on the premises? Maybe its time the city look at its ordinances to see whether they make sense. This one sure doesn't <email obscured> wrote: I am guessing that people have very short memories of what we were dealing with in "health clubs" just a few years ago. The typical "health club" that had no professional staff had a name like... Racquel's Rapp, or the Playboy Club or Sussie's Sauna. These clubs did have staff members that frequently would offer healthful ways to reduce stress by giving "private workouts" or "healing massages" behind closed doors. The ordinance was written to stop these kinds of activities from occurring in our neighborhoods. So, for those of you who think you don't need the ordinance to protect your community, I would encourage you to call your council member and ask that your neighborhood be allowed to have massage parlors and other nonprofessional health clubs, health spa's and sauna's. I would be pleased to assist you in drafting the language that would allow the streets in your neighborhood to have them without my neighborhood having to put up with that crap again. One of the benefits that you will get is other entrepreneurs who will work the streets and all of their customers. But, don't assume for a second that those of us who have had to fight to protect our neighborhoods from this kind of crap are going to just roll over because you are to cheep to go to a gym that has staff. Just My Opinion Not Those Of My Employers Past Present Or Future Chuck Repke **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) Chuck Repke West 7th, Saint Paul Info about Chuck Repke: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/chuckrepke This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2bfCwEbI4l0FyIIXSrja79
Saunas, bathouses, massage parlors, fitness centers, discussion centers,
photography studios, poolhalls... each of these offered up their services
in St. Paul over the years. Fronts for prostitution, they were obviously
quite different for legit, non-sex businesses. Trouble is, every one of
these businesses, their owners and attorneys maintained that they "were"
legitimate and if anything else untoward was going on, they were unaware of
it". Certain crack attorneys got rich defending these places and winning!
After years of futility, the city and its licensing and legal staff wrote
laws to protect the public from unlawful activites and to protect health and
safety. One clause: Business-owners must have a responsible staff person on
premises at all times to enforce their policies and assist patrons.
Any business that offers equipment for use - barbells, treadmills, etc.
really ought to have a trained staffer there when you are. Take a look at
the health clubs that really care about the services they offer - they take
safety seriously, whether its spotting the guy doing bench presses, or
helping a person rebound from a heart attack. You can argue
self-responsibility all you want, but when the city licenses a business we
also have a responsibility to our citizens. What good is a videotape seen
24 hours after an injury or assault by a service in Texas?
Some respond that "of course women shouldn't be out using these things at 3
AM" - boy thats really saying something - mainly that it really isn't safe
for someone (male or female) to be alone in a storefront, bathroom or locker
room in the dark hours of the night.
These were reasons the city wisely chose to regulate health/fitness/massage/
etc. a number of years ago.
Then, neighborhoods were plagued by businesses posing as fronts for
prostitution. Even Grand Avenue had the Red Carpet Sauna!
But that was long ago I guess. You younger folks don't realize that many
neighbors risked their lives - literally - picketing, petitioning city hall,
hiring their own attorneys for years as their daughters had to walk by these
creepy places on the way to school or the bus stop.
The result is, today we have zero sex shops. I make no apologies that St.
Paul does not want, or want to cater to people who want to buy sex - whether
its strip clubs, peep shows or saunas. Yes - they have them in Minneapolis,
but we simply have thought more highly of women and families than many other
big cities.
The proponents of these new 24/7 facilities don't really care about the
pandora's box they want us to open. They are simply cashing in while they
put Frogtown, W7th, Selby Dale, University Ave. and the Eastside at risk of
the same blight we experienced thruout the seventies and eighties.
So anyway, the above is why I and many others feel so strongly about not
turning back the clock.
Just please don't tell me that the big push for these gyms is coming from
Republican lobbyists... please... :-)
dave
ward 2 - st. paul
This is a very interesting issue. You have safety, health, business models,
crime, vice, insurance, legal, et al, all rolled into one.
As for myself, my health club is right out my back door. Most of St. Paul is a
great place to run and I have been running for over 30 years with no
incident(even during many many late evening runs through neighborhoods,
commercial areas, and deserted parks and around lakes). Over 20 yrs were in
Mpls. I've never been a health club member, except for awhile at a YMCA, where
my wife swam and we took our daughters years ago for swimming, gymnastics, etc.
Having said that, I asked my daughter, who is a mother, traditional health club
member with her husband, is a runner (some marathons as myself), and an
attorney, what she thought. Her first thought was that she would feel unsafe
being alone in a health club at night and thought of the insurance and legal
issues, even if members sign waivers. She had not read the newspaper article.
So, I guess its where you are coming from, safety concerns, finances, etc, as
to how you stand on the issue. I can see the pros and cons. I believe some
people will thrive in a health club like this and would save money. Actually
you can save lots more money by getting a reasonably priced treadmill, and
putting it in your basement in front of a TV. I've had one for 15-20 yrs, but
only use it about a half dozen times a year. Outside is really the way to go.
But, then again some do not have a basement (apt or condo) and like the club
atmosphere.
As for the other aspects, the law can be amended to allow actual defined health
sports clubs and the bad sauna type places out. The same can be done for
insurance and safety issues, since these kinds of places are prevalent in many
other states. It appears that there has not been a large outcry from competing
traditional health clubs.
Gary Thompson
Hard not to notice, John, how your subject line and post encourages us
to divide ourselves on these issues.
I mean, one can disagree on the issue without siding with one person
or the other overall. My Mayor and my Councilmember disagree on some
issues, but have agreed on many others. And where they disagree,
sometimes I agree with one, and sometimes I agree with the other.
You ask us to take sides not on the issue, but on which elected
official we side with, and that's where things tend to get unhelpfully
divisive, and generally lowers the level of conversation.
I can take one side or the other on a given issue without needing to
be "for" or "against" a person, thank you very much.
In a message dated 4/20/2008 7:57:26 AM Central Daylight Time, <email obscured> writes: One group was a setting for "massages" and were a front for prostitution. The other is a work out facility. I don't know how anyone could argue that Anytime Fitness or any other type of fitness club is anything like the former. -snip- And when the "new health clubs" that open up under this liberation of the ordinance that allows anyone with no license to open a "health club" with no supervisory staff happen to become fronts for prostitution "Big Sam's health club home of the unisex changing rooms..." How exactly do you propose to put the Genie back into the bottle? "I mean people are allowed to change in a health club aren't they? And if one of our members happened to be looking through a hole in the wall that we didn't know was there, we couldn't be held responsible, we are a "health club"... we couldn't know what was going on in the "VIP members changing rooms..." I have seen this show before. Like I said call up your Council Member and let him or her know that you want unregulated, unsupervised, health clubs, message parlors, health spas, and fitness centers on your street corner. JMONTOMEPPOF Chuck Repke **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
"24 hour fitness center or whore house?"
I'd love to see that headline in the PP.
Dave has done a great job of serving St. Paul and the residents of Ward 2.
I don't agree 100% with some of the causes he's hitched his wagon to over
the years,
but as a resident in this Ward for 14 years, I have found Dave to be 100%
responsive whenever I've had
the need to contact him and he's always been willing to meet in person to
address
any concerns.
Are we being honest with each other when we frame this as a safety issue? It
appears
to be about a generation of activists who worked hard to get rid of sex
shops in St. Paul and don't want to
see their work trampled on. Fair enough. Thanks for the hard work. St. Paul
is a better place because of it.
That said, this ordinance should be re-written to allow for 24 hour fitness
centers. As a city, we should remain
open, flexible and willing to work with new businesses.
However, these business owners need to have a crystal clear understanding of
the $#&*storm that will rain down on them if their
establishment becomes a "sex *stop*".
Talk with them, get everyone on the same page and let the gyms operate under
their current business models.
I'm quite sensitive to the concerns about prostitution and impacts on
neighborhoods.
If we can help it, I don't think its desirable to have the reputation
of being among the most heavily-regulated cities either - though I
balance that concern with many others, like impacts on neighborhoods.
Regulation is often both necessary and good, but can also be excessive
and unnecessarily bureaucratic.
So I'm just curious if anyone's open to the idea that there's there a
middle ground that is workable? Maybe, maybe not. Allow me to think
aloud...
For example, all 24-hour health clubs must have at least one person
actively monitoring the centers somewhere in the City at all times,
must have a video complete monitoring of all public areas, audio
monitoring of all public areas, and must do a complete in-person
security check of each facility every 2 or 3 hours.
Again, just thinking aloud, from outside the issue.
Bob
I'm glad John brought this up. I've had some thoughts on this topic. Blocking 24-hour Spas on such a minor code component is pointless. This is an important job growth issue and a quality of life issue. Dave Thune with all due respect your personal claim to anti-porn efforts and your claim that whatever code in place requiring expensive medical emergency expertise to be on site cannot be changed, are both ridiculous. You are saying the local law alone compels those of us in free enterprise business not to choose a porn oriented livlihood. Strong local law helps, but what a callous selfish way to marginalize the important role of Christian values in public policy and public enterprise. Dave Thune is quoted as saying "the 24-hour on-duty requirement is key to keeping tawdry activities away." The 24-hour on-duty requirement is NOT key to keeping tawdry activities away. We can re-draft the St. Paul city ordinance, MN statute, or Health Department rule to waive the 24-hour on-duty requirement for so-called "Super Spas" without allowing prostitution fronts to regain a foothold. Legal Sex services companies fall under the Concierge/Escort/Dating services category - class code 812990. http://www.naics.com/censusfiles/ND713940.HTM http://www.naics.com/censusfiles/ND812990.HTM 713990 is legitimate health spas, and 812990 are Concierge/Escort/Dating services. So we re-draft whatever code it is with these specific class codes mentioned. The first complaint St. Paul gets that a health company is oriented for Concierge/Escort/Dating will be grounds for imposing stiff local ordinance penalties, and possibly for reviewing their company's NAICS class code used in federal and state taxes. I also have no problem using public employees as "secret shoppers" to verify the services offered comply with the registered class code. I like Mike's idea of defibulators (AEDs) on site as a compromise policy. I also am intrigued with Bob's video surveillance requirement, for which a business insurance policy might pay. The Builder show this morning showed how a home video system may be installed. Kudos to Dave for helping to rid us of the filth. But in at least one case, and the biggest case, Ferris Alexander's removal happened despite the local lefties best efforts to prevent it. Quote: Randall Tigue, a First Amendment specialist and former head of the Minnesota Civil Liberties Union, made enemies at the Justice Department through his longtime successful representation of Minnesota's "porn king," Ferris Alexander, owner of a string of sex shops in the state. Alexander was a perennial target of the Justice Department for alleged distribution of obscene materials and tax evasion, but for about 15 years Tigue managed to keep his client out of jail and in business. Then, when federal prosecutors attempted an innovative use of the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act in an obscenity prosecution against Alexander, they hit upon an effective tactic for assuring that Tigue could not defend the case: They had Tigue himself indicted, alleging that he conspired with Alexander by helping him set up corporations for some of his business interests. Minnesota lawyers, convinced that Tigue had committed no crime, started a collection and raised $100,000 for his defense. A federal jury acquitted Tigue of all charges. But Alexander, without Tigue to defend him, was convicted of racketeering and obscenity. http://www.reason.com/news/show/29168.html Dave Thune do you condemn the now elderly 1st amendment activists such as Tigue and many other locals who fought the feds with Alexander to retain Alexander's St. Paul smut enterprise? Anyway, if I am to be involved in public policy at any level in the future, rest assured this would be a no-brainer for me. We are building on the quality of life theme (the various police tactics and downtown river development) by allowing "Super Spas" and other healthful businesses in St. Paul. Jamie Delton Summit U
In a message dated 4/26/2008 11:30:09 AM Central Daylight Time, <email obscured> writes: Blocking 24-hour Spas on such a minor code component is pointless. This is an important job growth issue and a quality of life issue. -snip- You have to be kidding me. Isn't the entire point of the place that they don't staff them so that they are cheep? How in the heck does that make this an important job growth issue? Any health club that wants to operate in Saint Paul can operate in Saint Paul as long as it has someone working there (job growth) when there are customers there. What is not allowed is any place that allows "members" to do activities associated with the normal activities of a "health club" like taking off your clothes, or changing your clothes or showering ... without there being a responsible employee in the building. Having been on the picket line with Thune back in the 70's and 80's I will agree that this is an important quality of life issue. Facilitating the sleaze balls that operate "private clubs" in Saint Paul to start up again just so that these discount health clubs with no staff can open, doesn't seem like much of a trade. The only way were able to rid the City of those joints was to create a direct link to the unlawful activities to the owners through their employees. So, you may think that it is your right to have access to a health club that promises that for at least eight hours there is no one in the building to clean the place and allows staph to grow like dandelions, but the City does have the ability to require that you have staff available to protect the general health and welfare of any place that advertises itself as a health club. ... And that gave the fringe benefit of being able to link the owners of the massage parlors to the activities in the building. JMONTOMEPPOF Chuck Repke **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Chuck,
You've got to be kidding. Your job growth plan hinges on the compulsory hiring
of a single extra person for each company site? Can you say "heavy handed
progressive/socialist economics"?
Was the issue ever bathroom maintenance?
You just admitted the reason we initially established the code was because of
it's anti-smut qualities not because we thought it was safer or because it
fostered the hiring of a single "responsible" position or because the bathrooms
were not clean or any other reason.
Let's take the more effective and intellectually honest NAICS approach and
block only smut companies instead of micromanaging human resources which blocks
smut companies AND some legitimate businesses.
Let's just admit the pretense we put up to get rid of the smut companies was
based on assumptions about positions a legitimate spa company might choose and
that those assumptions now need to be updated.
Let's present to the readers all city and state codes that you think are so
critical to the moral fortitude of our city because they keep out smut
enterprises.
The difference between a janitor and a "responsible" (more so than a janitor,
facility manager, attendant, or director?) medical emergency position is
several thousands.
It is ridiculous to block a legitimate company in this manner that wants to do
business in St. Paul.
If there are any other such codes that accomplish ulterior motives at the
expense of legitimate companies we should update those codes as well.
Chuck your picketing was good but code establishing "a direct link to the
unlawful activities to the owners through their employees" now discourages
legitimate business.
Let's take a moral stance against smut and deception and modify the code just
enough to allow legitimate business into St. Paul.
The 24-hour medical emergency position requirement does not block all smut
enterprise.
The 24-hour medical emergency position requirement implies the government
knows best how to run a legitimate Spa business that is eager to be a part of
St. Paul.
Let's fix it.
Jamie Delton
Summit U
Note dialog may be posted on my blog www.deltondigest.com if I reach my 2
comment limit here.
You know what really scares me is how quickly a new generation forgets or
disregards history.
Folks, life isn't a nice civics class taught by a kindly professor where you
memorize "progressive" and "socialist".
And prostitution isn't a victimless crime. And its apologists are wrong when
they say that it can't be taken off the streets...
And no... the law doesn't allow you to simply state "we will make it
illegal to run a whorehouse and clearly differentiate a "nice" business from
a bad one."
Pimps have lawyers - very, very good lawyers. Do you wonder why it took 10
years to get rid of the storefront massage/prostitution businesses?
Because even though they were busted regularly (but only after a victimized
neighborhood pleaded to its elected leaders), they kept getting off the
hook. "I had no idea..." ; "the participants were certainly not screwing
with my permission or knowlege..."
Then finally... finally we were able to come up with regulations they
couldn't crack.
That is why, dear readers, your daughters are able to walk to school without
passing a storefront that offers sex for pay.
Here's the bottom line. The city council is NOT going to change this law.
The health clubs will discover that they can still make money by having
attendants on duty. Socialism will not replace capitalism this year. Joe
Soucheray is a highly paid entertainer who will still convince his
reader/listeners that his tired schtick still relates to the working guy.
Life will go on. Try to find a new thread.
dave
ward two protector of virtue :-)
Dave, I just have to respond to your comments,?"Socialism will not replace capitalism this year.? Joe Soucheray is a highly paid entertainer who will still convince his reader/listeners that his tired schtick still relates to the working guy." Are you saying that it your Party's?intended goal is?to turn our capitalist society into a socialist one.? If that is the case why don't you just change the name of?your Party to the Democratic Socialist Party (DSP)?instead of the?Democratic Farmer Labor (DFL) if this your intended goal.? Your comments don't represent your Party,? or only a select few who control your Party.? As I have walked and met with residents on?the North End and East Side, I have talked to many Democrats and they also feel that the current DFL party leadership is not the DFL it was in the past.? These values included, family values, sound economic policy to let the citizens keep their hard-earned money that they work so hard for and not just take it?away.?? Your comments last month about later bar times during the RNC Convention and the?"Puking Republicans" comment?is shameful.? You call into question?our Governor?for all of?the budget problems in St. Paul, but you fail to look within.? It is you and your fellow city council members that approve the city budget,? NOT the Governor of Minnesota.? Your high?property?tax increases over the last two years have amounted to?over a?24% increase in taxes for St. Paul residents alone.? Also please?take a look at your $17 million in new spending that resulted in a 15.6% increase in property taxes for this next budget year.? If you add the county and school district to the mix?you have an increase in property taxes for St. Paul residents of over 40% in two years.? SHAMEFUL!? This is not a way to attract businesses or to have a "Positive Economic Cycle" for St. Paul.? The remaining businesses in St. Paul are at a big?disadvantage to their counterparts in areas that are not as highly?taxed.? In the last week I have talked to two businesses who are either going to close and move out of St. Paul due to the high taxes.? Dave, you have worked against NEW businesses like Trader Joe's coming to St. Paul.? If I remember correctly,?you worked hard to stop this project that will bring good, high paying?new jobs to St. Paul WITHOUT costing the city of St. Paul any money.? ALL costs like Street improvements are?to be paid by the developer.? Win - Win for St. Paul on this development. Dave, lets drive around St. Paul and play a game of lets see how many blue vacant signs there?on homes.? Last count there were 1675 vacant homes in St. Paul and you raise the property taxes.? I know, lets get the banks to bring these vacant?houses up to new code?condition before they are allowed to be?sold (NOT).? It is my understanding that you?support of this idea for for banks to rehab these?vacant homes before they are sold, this?is the wrong way to go. You talk about Joe Soucheray's "tired shtick."? Why do you suppose his ratings are through the roof.? For reference, lets take a look at the 164 public comments about the 24-hour fitness clubs published in the St. Paul Pioneer Press recently.? They can be read at, http://www.topix.net/forum/source/twincities-pioneer-press/TQMHNNM1KTMUDLMA1? Would you like me to post a link?for the later bar closing times public?comments in the Pioneer Press?? As for your ratings, look at the voter turnout in the last two elections.? The public is disengaged in what is happening in their government.? There is apathy and open?contempt for their elected leaders.? WHY?? Because they are out of touch,? like banning everything for the "public good."? Next Kathy Lantry?is going to ban the Easter Bunny from City Hall, oh thats right?Kathy already did that. The only "tired shtick" is this socialism policy by some members of the city council.? This is AMERICA, not Russia or China.? The actions?by some members of our City Council?is turning St. Paul into a Land of Government Regulation instead of a Land of Opportunities. Enough is Enough! Sincerely, John Krenik Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
Hi all I am reposting my post because I had difficulty with posting it through email. Dave, I just have to respond to your comments, "Socialism will not replace capitalism this year. Joe Soucheray is a highly paid entertainer who will still convince his reader/listeners that his tired schtick still relates to the working guy." Are you saying that it your Party's intended goal is to turn our capitalist society into a socialist one. If that is the case why don't you just change the name of your Party to the Democratic Socialist Party (DSP) instead of the Democratic Farmer Labor (DFL) if this your intended goal. Your comments don't represent your Party, only a select few who control your Party. As I have walked and met with many residents on the North End and East Side, (I have talked to many Democrats), they also feel that the current DFL party leadership is not the DFL it was in the past. These old time DFL values included, family values, sound economic policy to let the citizens keep their hard-earned money that they work so hard for and not just take it away. Your comments last month about later bar times during the RNC Convention and the "Puking Republicans" comment is shameful. You call into question our Governor for all of the budget problems in St. Paul, but you fail to look within. It is you and your fellow city council members that approve the city budget, NOT the Governor of Minnesota. Your high property tax increases over the last two years have amounted to over a 24% increase in taxes for St. Paul residents alone. Also please take a look at your $17 million in new spending that resulted in a 15.6% increase in property taxes for this next budget year. If you add the county and school district to the mix you have an increase in property taxes for St. Paul residents of over 40% in two years. SHAMEFUL! This is not a way to attract businesses or to have a "Positive Economic Cycle" for St. Paul. The remaining businesses in St. Paul are at a big disadvantage to their counterparts in areas that are not as highly taxed. In the last week I have talked to two businesses who are either going to close and move out of St. Paul due to the high taxes. Dave, you have worked against NEW businesses like Trader Joe's coming to St. Paul. If I remember correctly, you worked hard to stop this project that will bring good, high paying new jobs to St. Paul WITHOUT costing the city of St. Paul any money. ALL costs like Street improvements are to be paid by the developer. Win - Win for St. Paul on this development. Dave, lets drive around St. Paul and play a game of lets see how many blue vacant signs there on homes. Last count there were 1675 vacant homes in St. Paul and you raise the property taxes. I know, lets get the banks to bring these vacant houses up to new code condition before they are allowed to be sold (NOT). It is my understanding that you support of this idea for for banks to rehab these vacant homes before they are sold, this is the wrong way to go. You talk about Joe Soucheray's "tired shtick." Why do you suppose his ratings are through the roof. For reference, lets take a look at the 164 public comments about the 24-hour fitness clubs published in the St. Paul Pioneer Press recently. They can be read at, http://www.topix.net/forum/source/twincities-pioneer-press/TQMHNNM1KTMUDLMA1 Would you like me to post a link for the later bar closing times public comments in the Pioneer Press? As for your ratings, look at the voter turnout in the last two elections. The public is disengaged in what is happening in their government. WHY? There is apathy and open contempt for their elected leaders. WHY? Answer: Because they are out of touch, like banning everything for the "public good." Next Kathy Lantry is going to ban the Easter Bunny from City Hall, oh that's right Kathy already did that. The only "tired shtick" is this socialism policy by some members of the city council. This is AMERICA, not Russia or China. The actions by some members of our City Council is turning St. Paul into a Land of Government Regulation instead of a Land of Opportunities. Enough is Enough! Sincerely, John Krenik Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
Super Spas in St. Paul - Democrat "Protector of Virtue" Dave Thune debates citizens on e-democracy.org Parts below were posted on DeltonDigest.com Dave Thune, The city council may not need to change the law requiring a CPR/ medical response position 24 hours at spas. We can make an exception for each individual "Super Spa" company that wants to do business in St. Paul. Perhaps a little work is required to resolve this issue on the city council on behalf of the citizens. You've already admitted to being involved in initiating the law many years ago for ulterior motives. Which is worse, taking a moral stand against smut despite the "pimp's lawyers", allowing an exception to be registered in law for Super Spa companies, and worrying not what anyone might say about it or not allowing an exception, taking a weak moral stand (protector of virtue?) and denying legitimate healthy new business in St. Paul which citizens are asking for? Below are comments collected at http://www.topix.net/forum/source/twincities-pioneer-press/TQMHNNM1KTMUDLMA1/p6 based on the article http://www.twincities.com/allheadlines/ci_8975738 Thanks for the link John. At least 97% of the 164 comments (none were mine) support the 24 hour spas and a curtailment of the ordinance that discourages the spas and costs them money needlessly. The city council need not be intimidated by attorneys who once defended dingy old smut shops in St. Paul. The line where Dave says Quote "And no... the law doesn't allow you to simply state "we will make it illegal to run a whorehouse and clearly differentiate a "nice" business from a bad one." Pimps have lawyers - very, very good lawyers. Do you wonder why it took 10 years to get rid of the storefront massage/prostitution businesses? Because even though they were busted regularly (but only after a victimized neighborhood pleaded to its elected leaders), they kept getting off the hook. "I had no idea..." ; "the participants were certainly not screwing with my permission or knowlege..." Unquote is informative - most people don't know that the response was this. But it is cowardly to make a legitimate business pay for your frigidity in the face of an important decision. Who cares what these smut shop attorneys think? Are you kidding me? You are AFRAID of the smut attorneys? Show me a St. Paul judge that would take more than 2 minutes to rule against any smut attorney in a critical judgement. If such judges exist we have bigger problems. Jamie Delton Summit U
> Life will go on. Try to find a new thread.
Us citizens have no business debating this issue because King Dave has spoken.
This is exactly what this forum is for. Why are you afraid of honest
debate on this Dave?
Elected officials should encourage discussion not tell us to shut up about it.
John Harris
webber-camden, mpls
I'm usually not goaded into responding to over-the-top remarks, but a few items
need answering...
>>>John Krenik>>>
>>>I just have to respond to your comments, "Socialism will not replace
capitalism this year. Joe Soucheray is a highly paid entertainer who will
still convince his reader/listeners that his tired schtick still relates to the
working guy."<<<<<
Come on John, these are just truisms... Soucheray will continue to find a
continuing supply of easy marks to buy his 20 year old routine. He's still
stuck pretending to be middle class while he secretly eats quiche. At least I
respond to new issues and really do eat chef boyardee canned spaghetti.
>>>John Krenik<<<
>>> I have talked to many Democrats and they also feel that the current DFL
party leadership is not the DFL it was in the past. These values included,
family values, sound economic policy to let the citizens keep their hard-earned
money that they work so hard for and not just take it away. <<<<<<
So this is why you advocate for night-long drinking hours and offer up our
neighborhoods to the porn palace crowd? I didn't think republicans were in
favor of anti-family values - oh - unless they make money for someone I
guess....
Tax increases? We were at zero to 3% levy increases until your republican
governor decided to punish DFL leaning cities so he could pander to the
no-new-taxes crowd of neo-cons. Give me a break - you didn't talk to any
businesses who are going to leave, did you? Why don't you share with us? Lets
see if they really are leaving... My guess is they're imaginary, just like the
hundreds of bars who were supposed to go bankrupt because of the smoking ban...
Trader Joe's? Trendy place. Adds traffic to surrounding neighborhood
resulting in a "D" congestion rating which we will have to remedy within 10
years with your taxpayer dollars. National chain buys zero supplies and
groceries locally. Ships it in from chicago daily. Unfortunately I lost on
that issue, but to show that DFL officials see things differently, I was in a
1-6 minority...
Vacant homes? Use real facts John. The republican national economy has gone
to hell while we subsidize a tragic war borne of a George Bush lie. Thats why
some people lose their homes. Others succumbed to the lure of cheap re-fi loans
pushed by national lenders (not local banks). Actually the local banks don't
have a problem with our new get-tough policies. The bad guys are the national
lending chains who took back the homes and have no intention of maintaining the
property. I say, show them no mercy!.
John, if you're going to run for mayor you'd better get a better command of the
facts. Joe Soucheray's followers don't live here and don't vote. Thats why he
doesn't have the gumption to run for office himself.
Chris Coleman will eat you for lunch if this is the best you can offer.
dave thune
ward two
very crabby today. the dog passed away a-piece ago, so I'm taking it out on
krenik
Ummm, perhaps we could all stay grounded in the issue: what rules for
operating fitness clubs best serves St. Paul communities?
That's a practical question that doesn't depend on personality or
ideological worldview. And it could be a worthwhile discussion.
Now, I'm open to conversation on such issues, but...I think I speak
for many SPIF and PiPress readers when I
say...zzzzzz...zzzz....zzzzz....wake me up wh....zzzz...we get
bac....zzzz...zzzzzzz...
Congrats to everyone who has managed to take a thread about an important
issue and make it into something ... I dunno, something bizarre and
slightly sick.
This is how I read the issue:
1) There is an ordinance on the books requiring someone certified in CPR
to be present during all hours that a health club is open.
2) There is a new trend to unstaffed 24 hour health clubs. They would
like this repealed.
3) The ordinance that is in place was put there during the bitter wars
against brothels in the 1970s and 1980s, and has proven effective at
keeping brothels from operating in this city.
4) The people that got this ordinance in place do not want to change it
because of their experience fighting well funded pimps.
5) No one thought of the possibility of 24 hour legitimate health clubs
with electronic monitoring when the law was passed, meaning that there is
some potential for it to be modified in a way that allows the desired
operation but still offers adequate protection to neighborhoods looking to
keep prostitution out.
6) No one has yet proposed such a compromise. The two sides are: repeal
the ordinance and block repeal. That is that. There hasn't even been
talk of what a potential compromise might look like.
7) Calling people names such as "socialist" or "control freak" or "poopy
head" will probably not help create a compromise, either.
8) If a compromise preserving what both sides say is important is to be
reached, it will probably require a great legal mind or two. So far, no
such mind has been presented on SPIF.
9) There is no Point #9.
10) Absent any search for a compromise, a desire for compromise, or the
ability to produce compromise, it is unlikely that this discussion will
get much better.
That's all I got. Back to reality.
Wow, other people's discussions putting Spaulding to sleep, that's noteworthy.
I think Erik's over-numerated analysis got closest, but didn't quite make the
point that is so glaring to me: Whoever wants to change the ordinance should
take the responsibility of coming up with an intelligent accommodation that
doesn't negate the original--very valid--purpose.
As Dave Thune pointed out, simply lighting the anti-government torches of the
proponents of total de-regulation puts our traditional supporters of family
values in the self-contradictory position of supporting prostitution. The fact
that these erstwhile supporters of values have gone on the attack so quickly,
vehemently and personally actually seems a little creepy to me. I mean, what's
your hurry, John?
Makes me glad my Councilmember has the historical perspective and intestinal
fortitude not to be Willy-Hortoned or baited by knee-jerk socialist labeling.
Don't let them wear you down, Dave.
> "It's only a matter of time . . . "
>
> So far, the main focus of this thread has been on the potential for use of
> the
> health clubs as a cover for prostitution.
> Considering even such public places as the restrooms at the Minneapolis
airport can
> become
> a draw for people seeking anonymous free sex, does anyone want to
> bet on
> how long the same use will arise for the unsupervised health clubs? Unlike
> parks, they even have climate controlled surroundings.
> It seems that some things just evolve once the opportunity presents
> itself,
> and I think this may be one of those opportunities waiting happen. In what
> position will the city find itself then? Will they have to assign
> undercover
> officers to patrol clubs if patrons complain?
>
> This is not an argument about sexual linkups, but a question of setting up
> a
> situation that has unforeseen implications for the city.
> I belong to a health club that doesn't have continuous staffing, and I
> love the
> freedom of anytime use and very low fee. But my membership is in a
> rural
> community where people think nothing of leaving an unlocked car running
> while
> they pop into the quick store and kids leave bikes sprawled
> unlocked on the lawns.
> However, St. Paul residents have to deal with the reality of city they live
in, and
I have to agree with Dave Thune. It took a very long time for Saint Paul to
clean up the "brothels" that operated as health clubs. This city has also done
a great job in keeping out the strip clubs that just exploded in Minneapolis
after the Target Center opened. Except for the place at Larpenteur and Rice
Sts, Saint Paul is free of these types of clubs. Why, because the city has
very strict rules to control them. There aren't many businesses that stay open
without any staff on hand. Occasionally you run into a Laundromat that will
stay open for 24 without staff.
Stick to it Dave. Most folks don't remember how hard it was to close down the
"brothels" here in Saint Paul.
Rob Fulton,
Highland Park
Come on Rob. How can you compare a health club with little room for anything but work out equipment and limited access to a brothel or the old "health clubs" that were nothing more than massage centers catering to elicit activities? As Dave suggested, maybe its time to make exception to the rule intended to stop prostitution so these venues can operate. "Fulton, Rob" <<email obscured>> wrote: I have to agree with Dave Thune. It took a very long time for Saint Paul to clean up the "brothels" that operated as health clubs. This city has also done a great job in keeping out the strip clubs that just exploded in Minneapolis after the Target Center opened. Except for the place at Larpenteur and Rice Sts, Saint Paul is free of these types of clubs. Why, because the city has very strict rules to control them. There aren't many businesses that stay open witho