All posts in the topic Headington Fairtrade shop to open (Short link)
Summary
- There are 14 posts — by 9 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Julia Gasper at Jan 04 18:16 UTC
With Ian's permission, I am repeating below his message about the Headington
Fairtrade venture, as it deserves its own special thread. (I am worried about
people who receive messages in digest mode, as they only receive links to the
threads listed by subject, and so may not realize it is there. It is worth
everyone remembering this: important new subjects like this deserve new
titles.)
From Ian Alexander <geierstein@yahoo.co.uk>
One item of news should be of interest to young, old, and in-between. The
Headington Fairtrade Co-operative Ltd (HFC), an Industrial and Provident
Society, with myself as Secretary, will in February 2009 be opening a Fairtrade
shop, in Windmill Road, to be called The Windmill. This will stock a wide range
of fairly and ethically traded goods and environmentally friendly products, to
complement and extend the range available in existing local outlets.
HFC Ltd is now actively seeking shareholders. A single share ensures full
membership and costs only £1, but supporters are also invited to subscribe for
multiples of £50.
If you would be interested in becoming a shareholder, making a donation, or
being a voluntary worker in the shop, please let me know.
Information about precise location and opening times will be posted on the
Forum before long.
Ian Alexander
The Windmill sounds an interesting shop Ian! I look forward to taking a look
in February - you must remind us nearer the time.
Joan Williams
It would be interesting to see the market research that justifies yet another outlet in Headington for fair trade products. Already, at Starbucks we can eat and drink fair-trade products, and I suspect Headington’s established mutual society the Co-op will not be happy with a new rival for so-called fair trade goods. A few points to provoke dicussion: • Fair-trade farming practices, can also contradict their principles. Did you know the farming methods involved result in lower yields and decreased efficiency, and can require up to three times as much land in use to produce the same amount of crops? • Also some of the claims that Fair-trade goods are better are debatable; in fact there is no clear evidence that organic food is nutritionally superior, or that it is better for the environment. In fact, it can be argued that GM crops are better for the environment, due to fewer resources needed to grow crops and higher yields than traditional farming practices. • Another problem is fair trade practices, amounts to a subsidy that stimulates overproduction and creates further downward pressure on the commodity in question, thus hurting other producers not participating in the scheme. I wonder when we will see stories in the media of coffee mountains, as we have seen of undrinkable wine lakes in recent years in Europe. • Then there is the question of food prices, fair trade customers are prepared to pay a premium, but given these economically challenging times, fewer people can afford to take this lifestyle option. • Also there is the problem of locally grown food versus food imported from elsewhere, lobbying efforts by UK farmers to buy local produce, may help reduce carbon footprint, energy use, but such efforts if they succeed damage the economic prosperity of poor farmers and agricultural workers in such countries as Kenya. To read more http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8380592 www.oxfordprospect.co.uk
Nicholas - I copied and pasted some of your remarks to Google ... and there they were ... to the letter! For example: "amounts to a subsidy that stimulates overproduction and creates further downward pressure on the commodity in question". This sentence can be found at: http://eightparts.wordpress.com/2006/12/31/the-case-against-organic/ And so on, and so on.... the game is up! This is not the first time you have taken words from the net and made them your own (I have been checking up on you) and I wonder if you know anything about copyright (?) -- why not give it a Google? The Windmill shop sounds a very good idea to me, and as a fellow forumer I wish Ian every success. And I wish you would try to think for yourself, and be nice to people here. You have taken a fair bit of stick here ...we will be nice to you if you are nice to us ... how about that? Joan Williams
Fair Trade has lost its novelty value, its not the new thing any longer, seems
this is just the latest one to jump on the bandwagon, shops claiming green and
ethical credentials appears to be a growing thing. Commercially I just can't
see this lasting very long in Headington, the shop unit rent levels will soon
see it off if he can't make a profit, here today and gone tomorrow just you
wait and see. Thats why Headington has so many charity shops, which is why the
headington shops area is slowly dying.
From what Mr Newman says it sounds like fair trade is not so really ethical as
people make out.
I cannot abide Starbucks Coffee, I personally find their coffee totally
undrinkable, americans just cannot make decent coffee. If one wants decent
coffee beans go to Whittards on the High Street. The word Cooperative is trade
marked to the Co-op Supermarket chain and that started in Todmorden, the shop
is still there to this day.
It would be interesting to know what sort of car Mr Alexander drives, that is
the fastest and surest way to check out the ethical back ground of most men.
There's a big difference between Starbucks and a fairtrade shop run by local
people. I was delighted to hear about this venture, but as I am a brand-new
shareholder I had better not praise it too much, otherwise I could be accused
of advertising.
I am very disappointed by the negative comments expressed on this thread, and I
do not think they represent the views of many people in Headington. Please
could we keep this topic on course and not go off on a ridiculous and
irrelevant tangent discussing people's cars.
I am all for healthy skepticism on a list like this - after all the
world, not even the little bit of it we call Headington and Marston,
is not entirely sweetness and light.
However, whilst Nicholas Newman's skeptical post (plagiarized or not)
was at least intended to stimulate some debate which I will return to,
what follows from Nick Fell is just mean spirited, carping and mostly
wrong so far as I can see.
On 29 Nov 2008, at 12:36, nicholas fell wrote:
> Fair Trade has lost its novelty value, its not the new thing any
> longer, seems this is just the latest one to jump on the bandwagon,
> shops claiming green and ethical credentials appears to be a growing
> thing.
You can't really have it both ways. It's either shot its bolt or it's
a thing that more and more people want to be into. Which is it Nick?
Here's a clue - the volume of Fair Trade branded products sold in the
UK has doubled just in the last year. It may be small at half a
billion pounds but it has maintained growth for over a decade now.
Whilst Nicholas Newman's point about what happens to premium priced
goods during a recession remains a concern I am sure, what stands to
help a business like this even in a recession is that it already has a
trading network around it - it is a project, from what I understand of
it, of Churches Together in Headington. Churches have been (for as
long as I can remember - a similar market operated outside my church
every week in Nairobi thirty five years ago) at the forefront of
this. All this does it take those trading networks within each church
and puts them in one place on the high street where their members can
access them more easily than once a week and others can be tempted in.
Indeed whilst supermarkets and others have started to promote Fair
Trade a lot more recently, I personally would not buy it from
supermarkets other than the co-op (and possibly Waitrose) if I could
avoid it. To me, buying something that says it's "Fair Trade" from a
supermarket giant that variously does not itself practice what Fair
Trade preaches in its mainstream operation renders the "Fair Trade"
label in those stores a cynical sop.
> Commercially I just can't see this lasting very long in Headington,
> the shop unit rent levels will soon see it off if he can't make a
> profit, here today and gone tomorrow just you wait and see. Thats
> why Headington has so many charity shops, which is why the
> headington shops area is slowly dying.
That may or may not be the case, however this is not a purely
commercial venture. It is also providing a meeting place and
information exchange for people already involved in those church
networks, and not merely for trading. I don't personally see what
skin off your nose it is if it fails or not. If they achieve their
target of shareholder funds it will have proved that there are
sufficient people to support it knowing that they are unlikely ever to
see a return on their money. Good luck to them. I am a little
skeptical of Fair Trade myself (too many people see it I think as an
end in itself, when it is only a coping strategy in a world dominated
by agri-businesses capable of manipulating markets because of their
privileged place on things like the World Bank and IMF) but I will be
investing, and I will also be trying to think of ways for them to
increase their offer wherever I can. It is actually that sort of
network that stands some chance of revitalizing parts of Headington
centre despite the landlords (who are of course back on their uppers a
bit now anyway).
> From what Mr Newman says it sounds like fair trade is not so really
> ethical as people make out.
Or at least from what he quoted...:) There are two sides to every
story. Most of the complaints on the blog Nicholas quoted can also be
laid at the feet of those trans-national agri-businesses who have for
centuries screwed farmers in developing nations through their ill-
gotten power in the market place and latterly through manipulating
financial assistance programs of the very bodies that promised
assistance in the global development arena like the IMF/WB as I
mentioned.
> I cannot abide Starbucks Coffee, I personally find their coffee
> totally undrinkable, americans just cannot make decent coffee. If
> one wants decent coffee beans go to Whittards on the High Street.
I prefer Cardew's in the Covered Market, and at least it is a truly
local business.
> The word Cooperative is trade marked to the Co-op Supermarket chain
> and that started in Todmorden, the shop is still there to this day.
Actually, the first shop opened on what became the co-operative
principles is claimed to be at New Lanark under the guidance of Robert
Owen. Whilst it is not open today except as a museum gift shop, I
have stood in there and shed a few tears of awe for what started
there. However if you accept received wisdom that the Rochdale
Pioneers were really the first, then their first shop was in Toad
Lane, Rochdale, not Todmorden, and it too is only a museum today.
Also, the Co-operative Group does not own a trademark on the word "co-
operative" (there is no such thing, by the way). It owns a trademark
on the device of the C-O-O-P square logo that you see outside their
shops and banks (I know as I fell foul of that when I tried to make a
derivative of it for the Association of Lib Dem Co-operators and they
asked me to change it).
If anyone "owns" the word "co-operative" it is the International Co-
operative Alliance. I practice they don't own any such thing, but
they set standards by which anyone wishing to call themselves a bona
fide co-operative should operate. The Headington Fair Trade Co-
operative is established, using these co-operative principles, as a
bona fide co-operative structured as an Industrial and Provident
Society and therefore, in its aims at least, it meets all the ICA
principles. It has every right to call itself a co-operative.
Rather annoyingly for your argument though, I see there is in fact
something called the "Bear Wholefoods Co-operative" in Todmorden which
has nothing to do with the Co-operative Group...:) Surely they would
have acted to prevent someone using their trademarks in their "home"
town...:))))
> It would be interesting to know what sort of car Mr Alexander
> drives, that is the fastest and surest way to check out the ethical
> back ground of most men.
As I mentioned above, this is a project of the Churches Together in
Headington group: Ian and two others are the inaugural management
committee of a bona fide co-operative. I think your pathetic attempt
to smear Ian deserves an apology.
Jock
(PS - Free Trade is the answer, but whilst global agri-business is
controlled by state protected TNCs with access to the levers of power
with which they have themselves devastated whole economies in the name
of "structural adjustment programs" Fair Trade and co-operation is a
useful counterfoil).
A very interesting and informative post, Jock. Thank you.
I agree that the real issue is globalisation - not that you used the term. Few
of us are equipped to tackle global conglomerates head-on, but we can all start
somewhere by supporting genuine Fair Trade initiatives. Although I only know
about the new Headington venture from what I've read here, it seems a genuine
attempt by local churches to do what they can in this respect.
Ian: Your colleagues and you should not be unduly bothered by the cynical tone
of two of the posters here. I think very many people in Headington will support
the venture.
Since I arrived in the UK a year ago I've noticed an incredible prevalence of
fairtrade products as an alternative to many conventional groceries. Initially
I was encouraged by this (and the prevalence of organic groceries) as it
suggested to me that the "consumer's voice" was loud enough to make a
difference. Yipeeee!
It's a very sexy term "fairtrade" and I suspect that many people are cynical of
it in the same way they were or the early expensive organic products of
questionable quality. I disagree with aspects of the anti-fairtrade comments
made earlier and I would prefer fairtrade coffee to non-fairtrade coffee any
day knowing (hoping) that the farmer is receiving equitable pay for their crop
rather than being exploited. This is what I know fairtrade to be. BUT I hope
that this is what is meant by any product marked 'fairtrade' (hope hope hope)
and that the product is otherwise an ethically responsible product which does
not negate any benefit of it being fairtrade in the first place. I have a
sneaking suspicion this is not the case and marketers have caught on to this
marketing phrase and ignore the need for an overall more ethically sound
product (please prove me wrong).
I have experienced running a not-for-profit, volunteer student-run wholefoods
shop/cafe and my (meager) advice to the people starting this new venture would
be- consider involving local producers who could complement the available
fairtrade products. I say this because the issue of fairtrade is a global
problem which has resulted form exploitation of growers in developing countries
by businesses shamefully originating in (cringe) first world countries.
Unfortunately, we cannot change that cocoa and coffee beans will always need to
come form other parts of the world (although Australia is succeeding in growing
their own) and these will always be high carbon footprint products. If a shop
could balance the high carbon footprint products with minimal carbon footprint,
locally grown, seasonal produce it might achieve a better balance.
I would certainly, for one, prefer this for the reason stated above and because
1. I do not have a car and try to limit my travel to cycling/walking
2. Headington is sadly lacking anything resembling a grocer (except of course
the farmer's market).
3. The local supermarkets are absolutely miserable places to shop
4. I far prefer supporting a small independent organisation (call me naive)
5. especially one willing to venture into the world of volunteers.
Some more advice: From my experience I noticed that there are 3 types of people
who were willing to venture into the wholefoods shop/cafe I worked in.
1. People like me who care about food, read about food, want to know what
they're eating, read the ingredients, prefer to eat less processed food with
less packaging and see the value in boiling my own rice instead of buying it
cooked in a packet. Frugal people also fit into this category.
2. I'm going to get abused for this but the second kind is hippies who are out
to fight the man. They particularly like the community spirit of a shop where
you can barter your (volunteer) time in exchange for e.g. lunch, groceries,
discounts. It's just so socialist......man. I jest but really I'm serious about
this.
3. Curious people who may sit on the fence with one or both of the first 2
categories but aren't *that* left of centre that they identify with the people.
These people are the ones who are REALLY surprised how cheap dry beans are will
tell their friends all about it. They're your best advertising which is why a
shop of this type can't be allowed to be too intimidating (i.e. with the
influence of groups 1 and 2). Type 3 people prefer supermarkets because they're
not too confrontational.
I only hope that this venture doesn't fail because of people's misconceptions
about fairtrade. A shop like this could do an enormous amount for the community
of Headington.
Kate the Opinionated
P.S. What do shares involve and how do we get some?
Plans for the Headington Fairtrade shop (The Windmill) are well advanced. We wait for the lawyers to emerge from their fortnight's hibernation to conclude the final details of the lease. As soon as this is signed and sealed I'll be able to give more details on precise location and likely opening date. If anyone is interested in acquiring shares in the HFC please let me know at any time and I'll send a prospectus. We follow the standard co-operative procedure of offering full membership for a single 1 share, or for multiples of 50 shares (50, 100 etc.). Advice and comments are of course always appreciated: the more input of ideas and preferences the better. Seasonal greetings to all Forum members. Ian Alexander (Secretary, HFC) Kate of the Brownie Guides <kate.e.coldwell@gmail.com> wrote: Since I arrived in the UK a year ago I've noticed an incredible prevalence of fairtrade products as an alternative to many conventional groceries. Initially I was encouraged by this (and the prevalence of organic groceries) as it suggested to me that the "consumer's voice" was loud enough to make a difference. Yipeeee! It's a very sexy term "fairtrade" and I suspect that many people are cynical of it in the same way they were or the early expensive organic products of questionable quality. I disagree with aspects of the anti-fairtrade comments made earlier and I would prefer fairtrade coffee to non-fairtrade coffee any day knowing (hoping) that the farmer is receiving equitable pay for their crop rather than being exploited. This is what I know fairtrade to be. BUT I hope that this is what is meant by any product marked 'fairtrade' (hope hope hope) and that the product is otherwise an ethically responsible product which does not negate any benefit of it being fairtrade in the first place. I have a sneaking suspicion this is not the case and marketers have caught on to this marketing phrase and ignore the need for an overall more ethically sound product (please prove me wrong). I have experienced running a not-for-profit, volunteer student-run wholefoods shop/cafe and my (meager) advice to the people starting this new venture would be- consider involving local producers who could complement the available fairtrade products. I say this because the issue of fairtrade is a global problem which has resulted form exploitation of growers in developing countries by businesses shamefully originating in (cringe) first world countries. Unfortunately, we cannot change that cocoa and coffee beans will always need to come form other parts of the world (although Australia is succeeding in growing their own) and these will always be high carbon footprint products. If a shop could balance the high carbon footprint products with minimal carbon footprint, locally grown, seasonal produce it might achieve a better balance. I would certainly, for one, prefer this for the reason stated above and because 1. I do not have a car and try to limit my travel to cycling/walking 2. Headington is sadly lacking anything resembling a grocer (except of course the farmer's market). 3. The local supermarkets are absolutely miserable places to shop 4. I far prefer supporting a small independent organisation (call me naive) 5. especially one willing to venture into the world of volunteers. Some more advice: From my experience I noticed that there are 3 types of people who were willing to venture into the wholefoods shop/cafe I worked in. 1. People like me who care about food, read about food, want to know what they're eating, read the ingredients, prefer to eat less processed food with less packaging and see the value in boiling my own rice instead of buying it cooked in a packet. Frugal people also fit into this category. 2. I'm going to get abused for this but the second kind is hippies who are out to fight the man. They particularly like the community spirit of a shop where you can barter your (volunteer) time in exchange for e.g. lunch, groceries, discounts. It's just so socialist......man. I jest but really I'm serious about this. 3. Curious people who may sit on the fence with one or both of the first 2 categories but aren't *that* left of centre that they identify with the people. These people are the ones who are REALLY surprised how cheap dry beans are will tell their friends all about it. They're your best advertising which is why a shop of this type can't be allowed to be too intimidating (i.e. with the influence of groups 1 and 2). Type 3 people prefer supermarkets because they're not too confrontational. I only hope that this venture doesn't fail because of people's misconceptions about fairtrade. A shop like this could do an enormous amount for the community of Headington. Kate the Opinionated P.S. What do shares involve and how do we get some? Kate Coldwell Headington, Oxford Info about Kate of the Brownie Guides: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/4kQnyTTZPfiN6nYLXqjyyo This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2spszcUmjY4L6d6YFJMKGV
Pound signs seem to be a problem. To avoid confusion I'll use 'GBP': the HFC offers full membership for a single share (GBP 1) or for any multiple of 50 shares (GBP 50, GBP 100 etc). Ian Kate of the Brownie Guides <kate.e.coldwell@gmail.com> wrote: Since I arrived in the UK a year ago I've noticed an incredible prevalence of fairtrade products as an alternative to many conventional groceries. Initially I was encouraged by this (and the prevalence of organic groceries) as it suggested to me that the "consumer's voice" was loud enough to make a difference. Yipeeee! It's a very sexy term "fairtrade" and I suspect that many people are cynical of it in the same way they were or the early expensive organic products of questionable quality. I disagree with aspects of the anti-fairtrade comments made earlier and I would prefer fairtrade coffee to non-fairtrade coffee any day knowing (hoping) that the farmer is receiving equitable pay for their crop rather than being exploited. This is what I know fairtrade to be. BUT I hope that this is what is meant by any product marked 'fairtrade' (hope hope hope) and that the product is otherwise an ethically responsible product which does not negate any benefit of it being fairtrade in the first place. I have a sneaking suspicion this is not the case and marketers have caught on to this marketing phrase and ignore the need for an overall more ethically sound product (please prove me wrong). I have experienced running a not-for-profit, volunteer student-run wholefoods shop/cafe and my (meager) advice to the people starting this new venture would be- consider involving local producers who could complement the available fairtrade products. I say this because the issue of fairtrade is a global problem which has resulted form exploitation of growers in developing countries by businesses shamefully originating in (cringe) first world countries. Unfortunately, we cannot change that cocoa and coffee beans will always need to come form other parts of the world (although Australia is succeeding in growing their own) and these will always be high carbon footprint products. If a shop could balance the high carbon footprint products with minimal carbon footprint, locally grown, seasonal produce it might achieve a better balance. I would certainly, for one, prefer this for the reason stated above and because 1. I do not have a car and try to limit my travel to cycling/walking 2. Headington is sadly lacking anything resembling a grocer (except of course the farmer's market). 3. The local supermarkets are absolutely miserable places to shop 4. I far prefer supporting a small independent organisation (call me naive) 5. especially one willing to venture into the world of volunteers. Some more advice: From my experience I noticed that there are 3 types of people who were willing to venture into the wholefoods shop/cafe I worked in. 1. People like me who care about food, read about food, want to know what they're eating, read the ingredients, prefer to eat less processed food with less packaging and see the value in boiling my own rice instead of buying it cooked in a packet. Frugal people also fit into this category. 2. I'm going to get abused for this but the second kind is hippies who are out to fight the man. They particularly like the community spirit of a shop where you can barter your (volunteer) time in exchange for e.g. lunch, groceries, discounts. It's just so socialist......man. I jest but really I'm serious about this. 3. Curious people who may sit on the fence with one or both of the first 2 categories but aren't *that* left of centre that they identify with the people. These people are the ones who are REALLY surprised how cheap dry beans are will tell their friends all about it. They're your best advertising which is why a shop of this type can't be allowed to be too intimidating (i.e. with the influence of groups 1 and 2). Type 3 people prefer supermarkets because they're not too confrontational. I only hope that this venture doesn't fail because of people's misconceptions about fairtrade. A shop like this could do an enormous amount for the community of Headington. Kate the Opinionated P.S. What do shares involve and how do we get some? Kate Coldwell Headington, Oxford Info about Kate of the Brownie Guides: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/4kQnyTTZPfiN6nYLXqjyyo This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2spszcUmjY4L6d6YFJMKGV
So what measures are in place to ensure that the benefits if any of fair trade reach the workers involved? Given that the news item in the Times January 2, 2009 'Tea workers still waiting to reap Fairtrade benefits Premium paid for ethical goods may not be passed on' see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5429888.ece
The question is an important one. The Fairtrade Foundation's response to the article in the Times can be accessed via its home page www.fairtrade.org.uk The monitoring procedures operated by the main suppliers envisaged for the new shop, Traidcraft, are described on its website www.traidcraft.co.uk Ian Alexander Nicholas Newman <nicnewman@btinternet.com> wrote: So what measures are in place to ensure that the benefits if any of fair trade reach the workers involved? Given that the news item in the Times January 2, 2009 'Tea workers still waiting to reap Fairtrade benefits Premium paid for ethical goods may not be passed on' see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5429888.ece Nicholas Newman Oxford, Oxfordshire, England, Oxford, Info about Nicholas Newman: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/nicholasnewman This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2thNgjLKLtyxsArYZystvo
I will be going to look with interest at the new shop, and wondering whether it
can survive in present market conditions as organic and fair-trade merchandise
does tend to be more expensive. There are certainly inspections and controls
over the use of the terms "organic" and "conservation grade", so there seems no
reason why there should not also be some regulation of the term "fair-trade".
Nick is quite right to be sceptical as some examples have been found of goods
being marketted as fair-trade etc when they were no different.
As for the question of yields from organic (not fair-trade) farming, I think
the matter is more complicated, as you have to consider not just how much you
can get out of the acre for a few years, but how long you can go on farming
that land without exhausting it. Chemical farming methods have produced large
areas of desert and exhausted soil on every continent of the world, and also
tend to have a negative effect on the environment i.e. pollution, climate
change, biodiversity. Organic farming is long-term farming and if you have ever
read a list of all the permitted additives and chemicals in non-organic tea -
what people think of as just plain, ordinary tea - a list of about two hundred,
I believe, you would probably never drink it again. I haven't.
At the moment I have to go to Uhuru in the Cowley Road to buy a kind of tea
that satisifies all my environmental and ethical concerns AND tastes good
enough.