From:
Tim Kerr
Date:
May 19 09:27 UTC
Short link
Hi Brian and Brenda,
Firstly, thanks Brenda for pointing out BP works a discount shopper scheme
linked with Pak'n'Save. As I understand it, you can get a pretty good
discount. I suspect few "Pak'n'Savers" would be willing to boycott BP!
And it does say something about BP - that the company is willing to enter
into a discount arrangement. Also, BP is marketing itself as an energy
company now - and I believe is quite genuine about its new sense of
corporate direction.
Having said all that, I just received the BP boycott concept from an email
friend - and the thing obviously originated from overseas. The fact is,
though, if people were prepared to boycott the price leader then sales would
fall - and the company would definitely react to a drop in sales. And it is
fair - it is all about customer demand.
I think Brian, you may take the whole petrol thing too far..... We are NOT
running out of oil, or petrol. It is a market blip. Years of low prices have
created a shortfall in supply investment. Everything from dated oil rigs to
rusting, aged tanker fleets - combined with a relatively sudden improvement
in the standard of living in China and India.
Once the markets adjust to the downturn in the sub-prime disaster there will
be a drop in demand of Indian and Chinese products - tiny, but noticeable,
right when India and China are beginning to suffer inflation from the
massive increase in production in their respective countries.
Oil consumption will then taper off a bit and productive capacity will
pretty much catch up with the slightly falling demand. The prices will ease.
In addition, inflation, caused by oil price increases, will reduce the value
of the price of oil - much like it did in the 1970's and 1980's. It could
take a few years though.
Individuals make adjustments to their OWN oil consumption. If people believe
oil is going to get too expensive or to run out in a few months they invest
in alternatives - like moving nearer to their work... or growing
vegetables...or something. But that is individual choice.
If oil was to be in genuine short supply, then individual efforts to save it
won't help much because the massive increase in abject poverty will stuff-up
society as we know it, and growing your own vegetables and riding a bicycle
probably won't save you.
Cars are not as unhealthy as NOT having them. Life expectancy is higher in
automotive countries than in non-automotive countries - even allowing for
diabetes and heart disease. One thing owning a car does is provides
transport to do some exercise - to go to the Buller Gorge Marathon, the
Coast-to-Coast, ballet lessons..... They are all pretty difficult if one
relies solely on bicycles or public transport. I acknowledge, of course,
that riding a bike (properly) is one of the better forms of exercise to
combat diabetes and heart attacks.... But, Brian, I hope you see my point.
So, fellow forum members, it seems the bright idea of boycotting BP - as the
acknowledged price leader in the current upward trend in petrol prices -
will fail. Fail mainly because BP has a discount deal with Pak'n'Save - the
poor-person's supermarket!
Pity, because I would have loved to have seen the results!
Cheers,
Tim Kerr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Sandle" <bsandle@snap.net.nz>
To: <canterburyissues@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Canterbury Issues] Petrol prices.
> brenda dew wrote:
>> B.P. is where PaknSave customers cash in their vouchers for 4cents to 10
>> cents a litre discount.
>> Watch where you buy other products ,At a fish shop ,Akaroa Cod was
>> $9.90kg at a fish and chip shop it was $15.90kg.
>> At a supermarket one brand of cheese was $16kg at a fruit and vege,shop
>> another brand was $8.99kg
>> Do we boycott all or just share lower prices around as we find them?
>>
> How the system works is most perplexing.
>
> Advertising gets at us so we cannot reason very well.
>
> What does Tim suggest about the extra petrol spent to go to the cheaper
> petrol? Does he think it is worth actually spending more to prove a
> point? And what about the extra time on the road, and the extra traffic
> that would be caused? Is that worth it to prove a point?
>
> We are so funny we just want to prove a point rather than do something
> about it. One such thing would be to plant some vegetables that get
> watered at the same tiome as the lawn. Then there would be less trips to
> the shop, petrol saved, fresher, healthier food, lower doctor bills.
> There would be less petrol used by the food industry to transport the
> food.
>
> We could start to investigate solar ovens, and so save NZ's oil bill.
>
> The petrol thing is easy to use as a political football. People don't
> really think. So if a political party says they will reduce petrol tax
> they may go for them without really looking into it. If petrol tax is
> reduced then people will be less careful with NZ's oil bill. And the
> revenue will have to be gained elsewhere. To drive a car needs some sort
> of education, reading ability generally. So how will that be
> acknowledged? Some of the petrol tax will have been going to that
> education. Cars cause health problems through noise vibration, air
> pollution, reduced physical activity. How will that be acknowledged? Are
> the non-car-users expected to subsidise health bills of the car users in
> taxes?
>
>
> If we go to totally user pays there may be some big surprises. Adverts
> on National Radio, more on TV, a charge on library books, a charge on
> police services, a general move to lowest common denominator markets.
>
> Brian Sandle
>
> Brian Sandle
>
> Info about Brian Sandle: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/briansandle
>
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From:
Brian Sandle
Date:
May 20 21:52 UTC
Short link
Tim Kerr wrote:
> Hi Brian and Brenda,
>
>
> And it does say something about BP - that the company is willing to enter
> into a discount arrangement. Also, BP is marketing itself as an energy
> company now - and I believe is quite genuine about its new sense of
> corporate direction.
>
BP has been in solar power for some 25 years.
www.ablesolar.co.nz sells BP photovoltaic panels.
Solar power technology is advancing rapidly. BP has 5kw technology for
homeowners which Orion's Gavin Bonnett said could be connected to the
grid to supply power. That would save the lake storage though not
reducing wiring for peak power needs. He believes it might be 5 years
before organic photovoltaics becomes available, or at least a more
economic package could be produced. At the moment he says the whole
cycle cost of power from photovoltaics could be $0.90 to $1.20 per
unit. Meridan would buy power at the rate they sell it to homeowners ~
$0.20 unit.
From:
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/solar/bp_solar_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads_pdfs/e/Energizerbrochure-Oct07.pdf
19 kwh would be available in Sydney from a 5kw system. I t would be
somehwat less here at a higher latitude. Even if the energy sold is only
$3 per day or $1000 per year that would be paying the interest on a
roughly $10,000 capital. Organic photovoltaics could in futre
considerably reduce the captial needed and/or the output as whole roof
and wall area are covered with cheap thin-film, printed-on, solar cell
material.
Screen printing of solar cell collectors:
http://imec.be/wwwinter/mediacenter/en/SR2005/html/142205.html
and a chapter from an expensive publication looking at future solar cell
economics. If anyone buys it I would be interested to know of any
mention of the energy market for electric vehicles and how that might
energy prices.
http://www.nanomarkets.net/resources/NMThinFilmPVMarketsChapter1.pdf
> Having said all that, I just received the BP boycott concept from an email
> friend - and the thing obviously originated from overseas. The fact is,
> though, if people were prepared to boycott the price leader then sales would
> fall - and the company would definitely react to a drop in sales. And it is
> fair - it is all about customer demand.
>
> I think Brian, you may take the whole petrol thing too far..... We are NOT
> running out of oil, or petrol. It is a market blip.
You are saying to me, 'My bank account is in good shape, I have a
mortgage and have only spent half of it. I don't need to worry at all,
there is just a bit of a freeze on the funds at the moment.':
> Years of low prices have
> created a shortfall in supply investment. Everything from dated oil rigs to
> rusting, aged tanker fleets - combined with a relatively sudden improvement
> in the standard of living in China and India.
>
> Once the markets adjust to the downturn in the sub-prime disaster there will
> be a drop in demand of Indian and Chinese products - tiny, but noticeable,
> right when India and China are beginning to suffer inflation from the
> massive increase in production in their respective countries.
>
> Oil consumption will then taper off a bit and productive capacity will
> pretty much catch up with the slightly falling demand. The prices will ease.
> In addition, inflation, caused by oil price increases, will reduce the value
> of the price of oil - much like it did in the 1970's and 1980's. It could
> take a few years though.
>
> Individuals make adjustments to their OWN oil consumption. If people believe
> oil is going to get too expensive or to run out in a few months they invest
> in alternatives - like moving nearer to their work... or growing
> vegetables...or something. But that is individual choice.
>
> If oil was to be in genuine short supply, then individual efforts to save it
> won't help much because the massive increase in abject poverty will stuff-up
> society as we know it, and growing your own vegetables and riding a bicycle
> probably won't save you.
>
Food and exercise/transport won't save you?
> Cars are not as unhealthy as NOT having them. Life expectancy is higher in
> automotive countries than in non-automotive countries - even allowing for
> diabetes and heart disease.
If the automotive-rich countries put their minds to it they could do
better. They probably also consume more alcohol and by your argument
heavier alcohol consumption must be healthy, too.
> One thing owning a car does is provides
> transport to do some exercise - to go to the Buller Gorge Marathon, the
> Coast-to-Coast, ballet lessons..... They are all pretty difficult if one
> relies solely on bicycles or public transport.
I used to travel siome 8 miles to school via two buses, and had plenty
of time to learn French vocab, chemistry equations and socialise.
But you may be right about the problems of getting to recreation if you
are not good at reading on the bus. People living in high density
blocks may not have the solar influx to charge electric vehicle batteries.
> I acknowledge, of course,
> that riding a bike (properly) is one of the better forms of exercise to
> combat diabetes and heart attacks.... But, Brian, I hope you see my point.
>
The way we plan is very funny.I need reassurance that Selwyn Plantation
Board is not just doing tremedous removal of forests before our
Valuation dept and carbon credits trading can get around to catching them.
A big block of big trees has just been lost from Bottle Lake Forest. See
Google Earth for how much was left last time it updated. There is some
native planting on part of the old dump.
Brian Sandle
> So, fellow forum members, it seems the bright idea of boycotting BP - as the
> acknowledged price leader in the current upward trend in petrol prices -
> will fail. Fail mainly because BP has a discount deal with Pak'n'Save - the
> poor-person's supermarket!
>
> Pity, because I would have loved to have seen the results!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tim Kerr
>
>
>
>