All posts in the topic Boy Racers (Short link)
Summary
- There are 42 posts — by 21 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Katherine Johnson at Jul 31 22:11 UTC
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| Nathan | Proposal for Christchurch boy racer solution.ppt | May 22 22:56 UTC |
Mayor Bob is out of his depth on the boy racer issue.
While he was pluming and endearing himself toward future central body
politics on TV, film scenes in the background showed the lads pouring slicks
on the road, burning up, lifting the cars at rear for burn out starts,
biffing bottles at the law and so on in Harper Avenue.
Wharrt ? No arrests.
Listen up Bob,
Mark Ross [ Mayoral candidate] has better ideas, and so do I .. we have a
better plan than your weak submission to Government to measure noise levels at
90 decibels.
You talking TV PC Bob and it ain’t no use.
Get the big paddywaggon down there, and maybe some cop dogs
Round up offenders, and place them in the back of wagon.
After each arrest for public nuisance, dangerous driving and so on .. get the
Cops back on the street and keep them arresting till the burn out noise stops.
Your TV blurb is good for the middle classes and blonde TV girl Bob, but no
good to stop problem.
If the media can take film of the lawlessness then so than the Cops. I can do
it if necessary. Get Citizens to help, enlist film crews for evidence and lay
charges
Charges
Public nuisance, dangerous driving and so on.
No use standing in the middle of the road for a photo opp Bob.
Answer here Bob.
I read in todays paper that boy racers are meeting with Bob Parker on thursday to ask for land to do burnouts on. That's BURNOUTS .... they look like this : http://tinyurl.com/342qr9 A pastime where the person who pollutes the most is the winner ? Wonder which is going to be the lucky community which hosts this "facility", what fun ! Hundreds of noisy cars and polluting smoke - hmmmm I wonder ? Any volunteers ? Paul :It isn't up to Council or the Mayor to organise arrests. It seems to me that Bob Parker is doing a pretty good job with these little toerags . All Council CAN do is keep moving them on, make life uncomfortable for them. I think this tactic has another spin off, a fellow from Helmores Lane was quoted in the Press as saying " I used to have a lot of sympathy for them, not any more " . The more people who get to see for themselves just how bad this problem is the better, there has been too much tolerance and head patting. Its all very well to say "arrest them" but you grab a handful of boyracers and charge them with rioting, burnouts etc etc, its very hard to make charges stick in Court , the only thing worse than seeing them not getting arrested is seeing them slouch out of Court smirking because they got off on some kind of technicality Out here we've seen one or two police cars heading into a crowd of hundreds of boyracers , being attacked with bottles, rocks and having to retreat with broken windows and damaged cars. These scenes always happen on Friday & Saturday nights, the busiest nights of the week for Police anyway. More Police maybe? A squad dedicated to Boyracers for 12 months ? Its going to take a long time to rid NZ of this problem - i used to think high fuel prices would help - but these people car pool ( wow ..almost green) Keep moving them on Bob, the more people they p*ss off the better. Who knows , maybe more parents will start to teach their children at a young age to respect the rights of others. Speaking of which, you wonder what chance there is of that when you know that Police stopping a car (attending Burnouts out here, at 2.00 am one saturday night) were staggered to find a two month old baby in the car.
" We could save more oil by banning school kid deliveries than by banning
burn-out pads...."
I'm not talking about saving oil when i rail against burnouts, i'm talking
about the obscene ,blatant pollution and disrespect for the environment that
burnouts epitomise. Of course there is also the noise .
Shall we just turn a blind eye to a pastime that belches out toxic smoke and
squanders tyres because someone else is also polluting ? In that case lets all
just give up because there will always be a bigger polluter than you or I and
if they're not going to stop then why should we ?
Should ChCh City Council - and by extension- Ratepayers, be in the business of
supporting a practise thats very intent is to pollute ?
We're not allowed to burn tyres for a very good reason... slowly this foul
practise (of burnouts) has morphed into a "sport" but only, I suspect, because
most people have no idea what a burnout looks like... lets hold Burnout Comps
in Cathedral Square or in Mall carparks, let people make informed choices about
whether we should be building Burnout Pads.
While I definately have some sympathy for your problem, I have to comment
that I used to do burnouts on my motorbike. I paid for them, they were my
tyres. It wasn't particularly noisy or smelly either. Its 1-2 minutes of
fun, providing you can stay upright LOL.
I was at a 60th birthday on the weekend. Males and some females were
discussing what they would have done with the new whizzy cars young people
have now. There was quite a bit of enthusiasm.
Lets keep some perspective here. Do you really wish environment police on
your grandchildren ? What is the world coming to . . .
We shouldn't call these drivers "boy racers" or "girl racers" - they won't or
can't equip their vehicles to an appropriate standard to actually race.
We shouldn't call them hoons either - in my youth (only 25 years ago) hooning
involved actually driving, not ruining tyres, making lots of pollution and
didn't involve so much anti-social behaviour.
We should call these spoilt individuals something like "road rats" as they are
a plague we could do without.
I wouldn't provide these road rats any facilities at all. If they are provided
facilities then someone has to set some rules & manage the facility. These road
rats don't want rules - they simply want the freedom to show off and annoy
others.
If road rats would obey rules then there are plenty of opportunities already
for them to be involved in motorsport. Wanda Shaw has told us how much Ruapuna
Raceway is used and what the effect on the community is. Who wants a road rat
burn-out pad withing earshot of their home? I'm sure Wanda & her community
don't want these rodents back in her neighbourhood at night doing burnouts.
What is needed is more enforcement of the current road rules. Confiscate the
vehicles of the road rats & sell them to recoup the fines and costs of
prosecutions. Make the road rats do community service - cleaning up the rubbish
in our gutters & on our roadsides.
Driving is a privilege not a right & the road rats need to learn this.
Mark Alexander
R.D. 5
Christchurch.
I thoroughly agree with your sentiment, but automatic confiscation is going
too far. It should be impounding, with community service to regain the
(usually) desirable vehicle. And confiscation only if they don't play the
game. Involving prosecutions is just more jamming up of our already
overcrowded courts, and probably very counterproductive. The only problem
I can think of is where would the police or local councils put the impounded
cars. Civilians could administer it. The police are already overworked.
Last night I re-watched both the youtube vids posted in the earlier
thread. The noise at Barbara's house would certainly be really
mind-disturbing over the very long hours 'racers' are allowed to operate
their vehicles with little decibel restriction. The other one, a
1.45long burnout was pretty awful, they cheat by putting oil on the
road, which
we never did. It was a special occasion thing, not a way of life. And a
skill thing, being able to sit in one place, ie. control your vehicle. I
don't understand, they must buy special old tyres specially to do that, or
are they really that wasteful and stupid LOL
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Mark Alexander <
Boy Racers; Alcohol... ipsofacto youth drug policy in disrepute.
Bob will meet with Boy Racers but his mayoral office staff 'protect him' from
the real debate, intersectorial analysis of crime, security and "drug policy".
He intends to talk tough and do nothing, pretending there is no legitimate
debate surrounding this issue. Yet he need look no further than his Sister
City.. Seattle where CIVIL SOCIETY has addressed its self to this issue.
The principal objectives of the Seattle initiative are: reductions in crime and
public disorder; improvement of the public health; better protection of
children; and wiser use of scarce public resources. It is notable that
"stressing youth development in general and the maintenance of healthy
behaviors and healthy relationships rather than a fear-based approach" has been
core to the solution there.
Initiated to address:
- the failure to reduce problematic drug use, particularly among children;
- dramatic increases in crime related to prohibited drugs, including economic
crimes related to addiction and the fostering of efficient and violent criminal
enterprises that have occupied the unregulated and immensely profitable
commercial market made possible by drug prohibition;
- skyrocketing public costs arising from both increased drug abuse and
increased crime;
erosion of public health from the spread of disease, from the concealment and
inadequate treatment of addiction and from undue restrictions on proper medical
treatment of pain;
- the abridgement of civil rights through summary forfeitures of property,
invasions of privacy and violations of due process;
- disproportionately adverse effects of drug law enforcement on the poor and
persons of color;
- and the clogging of the courts and compromises in the effective
administration of justice, as well as a loss of respect for the law.
Professional and Civic Coalition for Drug Policy Reform
The King County Bar Association has continued to strengthen links with other
organizations in the professional and civic communities. Nowhere else in the
nation has such a coalition of groups been activated on drug policy reform
issues to this extent. The KCBA Drug Policy Project is guided by the Steering
Committee, which meets regularly and includes the current and former KCBA
presidents, the KCBA executive director and delegates from the following
organizations:
King County Bar Association (www.kcba.org)
Church Council of Greater Seattle
King County Medical Society
League of Women Voters of Washington
Loren Miller Bar Association
Municipal League of King County
National Alliance on Mental Illness of Washington
Seattle League of Women Voters
Washington Academy of Family Physicians
Washington Osteopathic Medical Association
Washington Physicians for Social Responsibility
Washington Society of Addiction Medicine
Washington State Bar Association
Washington State Chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics
Washington State Medical Association
Washington State Pharmacy Association
Washington State Psychiatric Association
Washington State Psychological Association
Washington State Public Health Association
The Washington State Bar and Medical Associations, with encouragement and
guidance from the KCBA, adopted their own resolutions in 2001 stating official
positions on drug policy.
I offered to bring to Christchurch one of the prime movers of this concept,
Senator Roger Goodman, under teh auspices of Mr Gary Moore's "Time To Talk" but
it can be assumed from the non-response from Mr Bob Parker's office that he
would rather cow-tow to his inner city developers need for alcohol outlets than
seek durable and sustainable evidence based solutions...
Perhaps we need to go back to the beginning. How are these young people
affording these cars, the fuel and the tyres?
Is credit too easy in this country? I think it is, not just for young people
buying cars but adults buying household goods, cars, holidays in fact, anything
they want. The nation is now paying for it with high interest rates.
Everyone needs to learn to save first, spend later. Sure, not so much fun NOW
which is what everyone wants.
The driving age needs to be raised, alcohol sales restricted to 10am to 12pm
and deposits on finance brought back.
On Fri, 2008-03-14 at 10:09 +1300, Margaret wrote:
> Perhaps we need to go back to the beginning. How are these young people
affording these cars, the fuel and the tyres?
> Is credit too easy in this country? I think it is, not just for young people
buying cars but adults buying household goods, cars, holidays in fact, anything
they want. The nation is now paying for it with high interest rates.
> Everyone needs to learn to save first, spend later. Sure, not so much fun NOW
which is what everyone wants.
> The driving age needs to be raised, alcohol sales restricted to 10am to 12pm
and deposits on finance brought back.
Yes, it would be interesting to get some more youthful perspectives on
this forum :-) Perhaps if you're young and you see how difficult it is
to save for a house, maybe you just don't bother and spend all your
money on cars, alcohol, drugs, etc., instead.
Unfortunately, us grownups have shown the way to some extent, by
assuming that owning a house *was* saving your money so why put any
actual cash aside ? That strategy is starting to look a bit faulty now,
isn't it ? Unless you've already managed to get debt free ...
hello there,
I am a mother of two teenage boys 20 and 22 obviously they are both into their
cars. The fact is the problem at present is that with new laws being
introduced frequently parents are at their witts end as they cannot control
their children. I on the other hand have had control of my children from the
start but this does not stop them being pulled over by the police randomoly and
getting issued with speeding tickets for uneccessary excelleration etc...
instant loss of license for 6 moths. Good you would say. I agree if indeed
the boy racers are doing this. In our cases we did fight back with lawyers as
the boys were adament that they did not race. We even hired someone to measure
the road distance etc.. and had the police come and drive my sons 1600 Subaru
with a dying engine to test the speed 3 times at the back of Burnham camp, they
even stated that the car could not have got up to the speed that was issued on
the night at such a short distance. Still the officer who booked my son stated
he wanted another notch on his belt before he left the force. And we all no
Police have the last say.my son he lost his license. We have now resorted to
putting a tracking and speeding devise in their cars as we are sick of
receiving infringement notices with fines such as excesive noise, in an area
they do not go, speeding, failing to stop at lights etc. We have reeived so
far some infrigement notices sent through the mail sice having the devises
fitted and could prove that the son in question was not in that area and infact
the car was parked in the garage or outside his work. These devises are
monitored by Navman/Telecom Satalites and we pay $76.00 a month but it has
proved to be well worth it. Getting back to the issue of boys racing. Do you
think that the police are agrivaiting the situation a little. A majority of
the police are leaving serious cases and sitting in their unmarked cars pulling
up young drivers, not middle aged etc and almost always issuing them with
tickets. I sat on Bealey Avenue one night watching the antics out of the
police. The new trend now is "You are not wearing your seat belt OR it is not
accross your shoulder properly " $150 instant fine Come on! You do not know the
full story of how the youth are getting harased. This is just another way of
getting revenew. Local bodies should consider what the young people in
Christchurch want as well. It is their city and they are getting pushed form
pillar to post. They deserve to have a voice. There is a huge problem with
racing and drinking but it has always been there just it has been higlighted in
the media more over the past two years. When you were young did you ever get in
a car and drink and drive? Or did you every exceed the recommended speed limit?
I do think that to get around this problem is 1. Bring back the traffic police
who understand the nechanics of cars, they were friendly and fair for all and
knew what they were talking about when they pulled you up, or at least hire
more police with mechanical qualifications, this could possibly eleminiate the
unecessary issuing of fines to the youth which I do feel is contributing to the
retaliation at present.
Secondly, involve the youth in decision making. Ask them what they would like
to see happen over this problem. GET THEM INVOLVED. Thirdly, open Rapuna or for
them to use again, after all it is a speedway track. I do understand that this
was trailed but shut down due to the residents in that area kicking up a fuss
on noise. Again the boy racers have been penalised. They are not allowed to
gather in town as they used to in Big Fresh car park, they are not allowed to
drive up the hills, what is this city comming too?
I do think that this age of youth are being cornered like rats, there is not
much for them to do it is a void age. NOISE - well I do believe the noise
situation is out of control, but I think that by introducing new laws to reduce
the decibels from 95 to 90 will not achieve the results that are hoped for.
The boy racers not bogins dont care about noise, it is about showmanship, as
long as they have the big bore exhausts (silencers fitted)then they would be
fine with that. Reduce the decibels to 75 I say. I dont think that this will
happen, why you say? Because in order for this to happen can you image the
backlash of loss of revenew! for the Governement a) Companies who only sell
performance parts for cars would loose out,possibly go bust; imported cars
would decrease and the best of all the manufacturers of performance cars would
loose profits as this age of youth are the biggest buyers of perfromance cars
ooch! My concern is that these young people are the future of our economy and
if a solution is not agreed on shortly it will have a huge impact on our city
in the future. I am sure that everyone will agree that these youths under
normal curcumstances are good people and as I have said before if you are
cornered with no were to go you begin to retaliate. Instead of issuing fines
willy nilly, monitor this process more, if infact a racer boy is caught
speeding without doubt then introduce them to community work such as working in
A&E or Burwood spinal ward, or along side the Serious Crash Unit, this will
hurt more than a fine or loss of license. Introduce a defensive driving course
which is hands on not just theory work.
My final note is- Three weeks ago we were standing on Main North Road traffic
at this time was medium, lots of pedestrians, when a black car which came
squeeling and speeding excessive of a speed of 100K, in a 50K zone went through
a red light intersection What was it you ask, an unmarked police car, he did
not slow down at the intersection, he would not have been able to brake safely
if there was a need too; the flashing lights which were in the front grill
were not clearly visable from our angle of the road, and to me that seemed more
ridiculous than any Boy racer I have ever witnessed. Is this policeman above
the law? This was a potential hazard to all on-comming traffic and
pedestrians at the itersection. I am willing to discuss and be part of any
team to assist both parties fairly in comming to an amicable agreement or
solution, have a good and safe day to everyone.
WELL SAID Karen !!!
I am very very skeptical about police officers. I would rather have less
police than more. That's a sign of a healthier society, as Blair said.
NZ First wanted 1000 more police. they COULDN'T FIND them. So they lowered
their standards, and accepted those who couldn't do anything else in society
than to be 'official' bullies. Look at the sheriff attitudes in the States.
It's appalling... Actually Queensland police were said to be just as bad..
in the 80's.
The problem is that the police are now funded in such a way that they don't
have to ACCOUNT for the funding... especially when drugs are involved. They
have unlimited amounts for searching for drugs. And the more drugs that they
find, the more THEY think drugs are a problems.
Drugs equals alcohol too.
So the government gives them more money to 'investigate' drug crime, as
drugs as really really bad for you (well, that's what police keep telling us
because it benefits their 'cause')
It's the same with the boy racer bill. The more they target and arrest and
confiscate cars, the more the police can say 'LOOK , we proved it, it IS a
problem'... so they go on having legal license to continuing doing the same.
That 'boy racer' bill does not fit the bill for human rights. I can't
believe that parliament got away with it!
I see guys in their cars and I sometimes ask them... 'how many times have
you being stopped by cops'. They are being harassed !!
Can I say.. they are being 'bullied'.
Look at Karen's story ... they even PROVED that his car couldn't go that
fast. That is APPALLING for them NOT to be listened to.
So the circle goes... police can't hire good quality police so they hire
those out of high school who fit the mentality of 'we'll get them'. And
those with a social conscience leave the police force because they
themselves don't want to be bullied.
It's a cat and mouse game with HUGE consequences-- social, political, and
economical.
Boy racers !?! just the starting point of the attitude our society has
towards drugs and boys minorities in general- legal and illegal and those
that should be legal.
Thanks Karen for telling us the other side of the coin.
I see a lobby group starting... go girl go!
well..boy too :)
Hi Karen,
Thanks for your post. You are quite right that young people often feel
victimized by the public and the police. As in everything in life - when there
is a small number of people who behave badly in any distinguishable group
everyone else becomes a scapegoat.
I have been getting a few credible comments about police harassment on the
street and that is not acceptable. However frustrated the police and the public
are about the noise and disruptive behaviour on our streets, bully boy tactics
from "the establishment" won't fix it. We need strong, clear, laws that
everyone understands and that the police can enforce fairly.
You offer to be part of a team to look into this issue. I am offering to set a
group up and invite you and anyone else in the forum who would like to take
part to contact me by email or on 021- 387 521 so we can make a time to meet.
Cheers Nicky
Hi, GROWING UP I was interested to see boys of 20 and 22 years of age referred to as 'teenagers'. I had thought 'teen' meant up to nineteen. The inference is that there are 'boy' racers of much older age who have not 'grown up'. Human behaviours can modify with age, including those of autism with its intensity but lack of understanidng of other's feelings. I remember, I think, in one of the books on Waldorf education (Rudolf Steiner approach) about how children can develop through having regular events in their lives. It might be music lessons, or feeding the chickens.. Such rhythm allows them to develop their will, and I think it is that a developed will enables them to control their own behaviour. SUSPICIONS ABOUT MOTIVES URBAN COMPACTION Writers have to be quite venturesome to write on this discussion group, because we tend to expose one another to quite some analysis. Do I see the police under attack for making business for themselves.? But police can be helpful. And obviously health care workers can be, but I have heard some bad tales in USA where dieting promoters can get the overweight with available insurance to travel to another city for treatment, then get them psychiatrically confined till their insurance runs out. But anyway I get suspicious about all sorts of market matters.. Maybe you can help me through the suspicion that one driver in developing a compact urban form, where people have little land at hand for gardens, is going to reduce people's alternatives to paying large amounts of money for food. In Cuba when the oil supply stopped from USSR they started converting car parks to gardens. The price of oil is going up faster than many were forecasting. We should have such thing in mind when planning. There is also the impact of quakes an floods on the sewerage in a dense urban form. The dense dwellers are very vulnerable. There will usually be some sort of food around in say a 1/3 acre section. Plus the rules for stewardship of biodiversity and the activity in that could be added. RECREATION IN A COMPACT URBAN FORM In the Green Party submission to Plan Change 1 to the Regional Policy Statement the need is put for a compact urban form which gives people access to work, school and shops via climate-friendly transport. But what about to recreation? which is the reason for this article being in this thread. The Green Party submission refers to community greens, or enclosed open air spaces in between groups of dwellings. But what sort of recreation can happen? It looks like parties – booze markets, because the sort of back yard with lots of things to do won't be possible playing with solar energy plumbing &c. The Green Party suggest an ongoing forum into the effects of urban compaction. Will this proposed forum go into it? How do we encourage other forms of recreation than car driving, and also recreation which takes a car to get to it? In my submission to the RPS change I gave data on the importance of gardening as recreation. I was working out some of that submission on this forum so you may have seen some of this: <http://users.snap.net.nz/~bsandle/RPS_submission_Sandle.pdf> the morgan's valley photo is better here <http://users.snap.net.nz/~bsandle/morgans_valley.jpg> Second stage of submissions in support or disapproval of the origianl submission closes on 28 March. I haven't had much comment on my writing on this discussion group, too embarassed to say you agree with some points? Brian Sandle
Hi Nicky
Re: Boy Racers
The desire of the community is for people to be law abiding.
I favour repercussions that are short of criminalizing our youth where
possible. And repercussions that relate to the problem.
What do you think about:
1. Confiscating cars that are sporting illegal exhausts and or noise levels
and the owner having to pay to have it corrected (and stored )before getting
it back?
2. Making it illegal to have opened bottles of liquor in your car as in many
parts of the USA resulting in confiscation and an instant (no not a fine!)
duty to be done on street cleaning
Wendy Gilchrist
There was a forum about noisy cars which was lead by Nicky Wagner =
politician = party politics.
From what I heard about the forum and live public meeting which was held by
Nicky (National in disguise) is that not everywhere were able to talk and
voice their opinions when asked because some people in the audience were
very POOR LISTENERS to the point that they shouted down the person trying to
give their voice to the issue.
Guess who was trying to voice their opinion? the political rivel, Labour.
Which makes me very very doubtful about Nicky's agenda in all this because
she allowed her rival to be shout down-- even when someone in the audience
said that they were interested in "what the guy had to say."
When I said 'go girl go' to Karen... I really meant "go parents go!" No need
4 politicians because they don't listen. All they are interested is being
elected and looking as if they are interested.
It's just too easy for this to become an election agenda.
It's NOT just about SOUNDS BITES!
Karen said " Ask them what they would like
to see happen over this problem. GET THEM INVOLVED. Thirdly, open Rapuna or for
them to use again, after all it is a speedway track. I do understand that this
was trailed but shut down due to the residents in that area kicking up a fuss
on noise."
A brief history of the $70,000 burnout pad at Ruapuna :
Firstly, at a crowded meeting held at the local hall all but TWO of those
attending voted against a burnout pad being built out here. Boyracers who
attended the meeting said they weren't interested in it as it "wouldn't be as
much fun as street burnouts ".
Locals were told at the end of the meeting that they would have a say when the
Pad went for Consent. So we all lined up and wrote our names and addresses on a
sheet of paper so we could participate.
About a month later we all got a letter telling us the Pad was Non Notifiable
and was going in.
From memory it was used 2-3 times, there was a total lack of interest in it.
There were no complaints about the noise from it but there WERE complaints
about the attendant behaviour ( letterboxes mowed down, vandalism,, dangerous
driving etc etc, rubbish, bottles thrown from cars etc )
Boyracers complained that they were charged to use it ( GOSH ! how dare they
charge us ! ) and that rules were too strict - ie : it wasn't as much fun as
doing it on the road.
The Burnout pad is still there , $70,000 of ratepayers money went into it.
I too have two sons, they are into cars, but only as a means of transport, they
use them to travel to work and sport. They don't plough all of their earnings
into their vehicles, they've saved for travel and to put deposits on houses.
They both drive pretty beat-up looking cars but they have NEVER been stopped
randomly by Traffic police ( one of them is totally anal about speed limits but
mainly because he tries to save money on petrol by not speeding , accelerating
from lights etc etc ) Neither of them has had a ticket or demerit points and
neither of them feels they are targetted in any way because they are young
males in cars.
Having seen police cars leaving this area with shattered windscreens, having
seen these boyracers in mobs throwing stones and bottles at passing cars,
having picked up the appalling rubbish after their burnouts, having had our
property tagged, vandalised and watched our neighbours cowering in fear when
squadrons of boy racers descend upon our area, i'm sorry, i have NO sympathy at
all. Sorry.
I was catching up on the new on this subject the other day and i was surprised
to hear about a man who rammed a carload of Boy racers with his vehicle and
then proceeded to throw something through another vehicles window, resulting in
injury. There are also reported incidents where people are placing nails and
screws on the roads to puncture the tires of "Boy Racers" cars, last time i
checked they weren't the only ones using the roads and this could have serious
consequences to anyone who came across such a trap.
Does this new vigilante attitude not scare anyone else?
I myself am 26, Married and we own our own home. I consider My wife and myself
to be polite responsible adults and yet since our car matches the description
of a "Boy Racer" car we are targeted by the police when not doing anything
wrong at all. It is people like us who are likely to be affected by public
vigilante groups as emotions get high and things get out of control.
There are plenty of young people interested in cars who are responsible and are
getting blamed for the actions of a few, some of us are willing to help with
the situation but are often met with attitudes of disbelief and mistrust.
I think that if we treat the general problem with maturity and deal with the
idiots that are not willing to be responsible then the problem can be sorted
out with little or no conflict, However in order to do this we need to all act
maturely and responsibly in order to reach a solution, starting with listening
to each side and not getting on high horses and jumping the gun.
Anyway lets get on with being proactive and do something about the issues
rather than sitting at our computers battling it out with quotes, misconstrued
facts and insults.
Kind regards,
Nice to hear from you Ike,
I think there may be a bit of a vigilante feeling beginning. I'd say it is
fairly provoked. Although loud exhausts seem to be the bane of the problem,
in truth it probably isn't.
A loud car screams past pretty quickly - so by the time someone is affected
the thing has passed by.
Nah, I suspect it it the twits who throw bottles out car windows, unrinate
on our lawns, do burnouts in the driveway and out on the road, who park
outside a resident's house at 0400 Hrs (quite innocently) but fail to switch
the lumpy idle motor off, or those who play deep resonnant base on their car
stereos and set our teeth knocking when they are next to us or behind us
along Colombo St, the ones who along with the urinating and thrown bottles,
deposit all their fast food crap in the gutters and on our properties - then
Fuck me (if you pardon the expression on this forum) if some bastard doesn't
deface the front fence. No that guy probably doesn't have the IQ to get a
license - let alone own a car - but boy-racers will cop a bit of the blame
because of all the other issues I have just listed.
As I used to live in Denman St I know what I am talking about.
But you know, I admire many of the cars and I think many so-called boy
racers are pretty good drivers too.
But once you see a bunch of twits doing burnouts - oh, and deliberately
setting alight abandonded cars outside our homes then, sorry buddy ALL boy
racers catch the crap.
Just like all motor cyclists used to cop it when I was young.
Cheers,
Tim Kerr
Nicky Wagner wrote:
> young people often feel victimized by the public and the police.
As was said in Parliament in another context recently: Diddums.
For another perspective, see
FWIW, I support Marks suggestion that the term "boy racers" should be
ditched.
I quite like his suggested alternative of "road rats";but perhaps the
Press
might consider inviting readers' suggestions for an alternative
with some kind
of prize for the suggestion most expressive of loathing and
opprobrium, and a
commitment to use the phrase instead of the present ridiculo9us epithet.
As for what should be done to/with the little rats and their
vehicles, I'd be
for turning them (the vehicles at any rate) to scrap before the eyes of
the aforesaid rodent. (If they complain that life will be unbearable
without their
wheels, they can always be invited to sit at the wheel and go through
the crusher too...
;-)
W Shaw wrote:
> Having seen police cars leaving this area with shattered
> windscreens, having seen these boyracers in mobs
> throwing stones and bottles at passing cars, having picked up the
> appalling rubbish after their burnouts, having
> had our property tagged, vandalised and watched our neighbours
> cowering in fear when squadrons of boy racers
> descend upon our area, i'm sorry, i have NO sympathy at all. Sorry.
No need to say sorry, IMHO. If the police can't cope or aren't
allowed to deploy the means by which they could
cope, albeit. with rather drastic results then perhaps it's time
for the NZ army to be called in to "aid the civil power";
its Light Armoured Vehicles carry equipment that could dispose of
road rats in very short order. Perhaps unfortunately,
pigs are more likely to fly...
*Diddums . . .
Perhaps unfortunately,
pigs are more likely to fly...*
Perhaps fortunately . . .
I'm very surprised to see you've written that Peter. No wonder the kids
don't listen, the adults don't either LOL
Howdy
Ike Andoit wrote:
>I cant believe the mature responses like, crush them in their cars or unleash
the army on them!
>i would have thought that this was a forum that more mature and responsible
people attended to actually post some relative and helpful comments.
>There are many ways to solve this problem and I along with others who are
passionate about cars are willing to help out
>
What are some of the ways you would solve this problem?
I cant believe the mature responses like, crush them in their cars or unleash
the army on them!
i would have thought that this was a forum that more mature and responsible
people attended to actually post some relative and helpful comments.
There are many ways to solve this problem and I along with others who are
passionate about cars are willing to help out but with responses like kill em
all etc then i am beginning to wonder why we are bothering to be honest, it
seems that no matter what we do we will all be considered "Boy Racers" and
therefore worthless to society and in a Hitler-esque fashion we will probably
be lined up and shot.
As i stated above, I am willing to do something about the problem and have
tendered a proposal to the Mayor as well as Nicky Wagner on the matter.
Although i am 26, Married and own my own home and dont go cruising every
weekend I am still referred to as a "boy Racer" just because of the car we
drive.
Yet Still i am here offering my help as are other people who are sick of people
interested in cars being tainted with the "Boy Racer" brush.
Although our offer has obviously not been taken seriously as I have not had any
response from anyone i have contacted for the last month or so.
I am beginning to think that if i got the "Boy Racers" organized and working as
a whole they could really get creative and cause major problems for
Christchurch whilst completely abiding by the law, imagine that, a host of new
problems that everyone could complain about and make bylaws for.
So perhaps we should actually get responsible and sort out the problem maturely
and effectively before the public starts Vigilante groups and harm innocent
bystanders or before the "Boy Racers" get organized and cause some real
headaches.
Food for thought anyway.
Hi there,
I have attached a PowerPoint presentation which i put together for the Mayor
and Nicky Wagner who i contacted at the beginning of March about my proposal.
I am certain there would be some tweaking needed but it was a rough draft of my
idea anyway.
I have also included a file on the forum and news research i did (not hugely in
depth but it was enough to give me a general idea of the situation when
accompanied by my experience with people in the "Boy Racer" scene.)
As well as an abbreviated collection of the relevant comments from my findings.
Hope this helps,
The following file was added to this topic.
- Name: Proposal for Christchurch boy racer solution.ppt
- Type: application/vnd.ms-powerpoint
- Size: 522.50KB
Hi Nathan,
Thanks for that. It's good to have a representative of the, what would
you call it, car enthusiast community, here (seriously, do "boy racers"
like that label ? If not, what do they call themselves ?)
One thing I'm curious about - how are high petrol prices impacting on
this community's activities ?
Apologies for a recent intemperate post on this subject.
Unfortunately they do not just tyre mark the roads: today ,when we went for a
cycle ,it was with dismay, that we saw someone had driven over the footpath in
Bridle Path Road and ripped up the turf where families go for a walk in a park
area near Ferrymead.
I must ask you though Brenda, How are you certain it was a "Boy Racer"
responsible for that? It could well have been a family picnicking or a bike
riding vegan greeny who works for the spca ans sponsors 20 children that left
the marks. I know it was more likely a hoon but unless we are certain then it
is dangerous to make such assumptions without the evidence.
As far as the rising petrol prices go i guess they will just drive less and
gather "park up" more. a lot of them are still living at home and have little
or no rent to pay and are earning between $500-1200 in the hand a week so
petrol prices are most likely not noticed as much since they have a larger
disposable income.
I would also like to hear some feedback regarding my proposal if anyone would
be kind enough to take the time to read it.
Thanks again,
Nathan
Nathan from the wide area involved, there would be no space untouched for a
family to picnic ,or that they would enjoy looking at the damage.
I also forwarded my view of the area to the C.C.C parks dept.
I try not to assume without proof but the wheelie design looked similar to the
tyre marks on roads in my area.
Did anyone attend the "stop the noise" meeting last night? I am curious as to
what the consensus was from the meeting.
thanks.
boy racers will continue noise,
they are angry boys, and it because we have failed our male children,
Bob Parker one term MAYOR wants NATIONAL politician status.
You maybe correct but they to will grow up - buy their own home settle down
and raise a family so what's so wrong with us letting them know what we expect
If we have failed our young males pray please tell me what did we do to our
young males we sent to Europe between 1914 -19 and 1940 - 45 and would you have
a thought regarding the values previously learned from those sacrafices and
presently lacking that young ones perhaps are missing today
Colin king
Colin,
We have failed these boys otherwise they would not be as they are.
Boys brought up with kind discipline and involved Dads don't turn out like
this.
This problem was created two generations ago, when Socialism [ Norman Kirk
onward] promoted marriage dissolution,
and as well angry feminism blamed men for everything.
So now we have a permanent underclass of boys and men to give us the second
highest jail propulation in the OECD.
And it won't be cured by Bob Parkers moronic wide bore exhaust on his wife's
car.
It is not just the racing noise : its the occasional tragedy and the constant
vandalism and violence.
I have boy racers over the road from me, and I promise you antagonism to them
is not the answer.
It takes patience and kindness to turn them toward civil driving.
Now, as we know, the Police, underfunded as they are, have to be surrogate
male parents and introduce a zero policy.
But it is silly, and the boys know it.
There are only few Police on duty at nights and they can in no way cope with
the devil may care attitude of the boys.
Colin, Please advice our future PM and Caucus that a massive increase in Police
numbers is required.
This must not involve a crack down, that will only promote more violence.
When I am King, Colin I will introduce a petrol tax incentive for safe drivers.
Ask me how
Best regards Paul Scott
I originally thought that Christchurch was a fantastic city to live in. However
my views on that are sadly changing.
I attended the meting for stop the noise. I had gone to offer some assistance
with resolving the problem by offering a younger persons view and that of
someone who is interested in cars and has become a side effect of the current
"solution" but i was shocked to hear just what is going on.
First of all i will mention that people avoided sitting near me, most likely
due to my age. I sat there and listened to every one speak, our Mayor, the
Police officer in charge of the "solution" and those who were asking questions
etc and i did so quietly and not interrupting them.
I heard such statement from police such as the fat that they are pulling people
over and ticketing them if they appear to have a non factory exhaust, it
doesn't matter if that exhaust is legal, it is up to the ticketing officer to
determine if the exhaust is too loud, they can also include the blow off valves
as being too noisy on turbo cars as well. The police office stated that it
wasn't their responsibility to test the vehicles noise level, so they don't
have to prove that it was over the limit, that was the duty of the LTSA.
it seems they are all still behind a new "loud exhaust = small penis - pinky
finger" campaign to bring it to the attention of the public and those
responsible. which to be honest i find rather childish especially since these
are the people who are supposed to be in charge of our city.
in fact the whole meting felt like a school yard atmosphere, including the
bullies.
As i said i waited for every one to say their piece and when the opportunity
came to ask questions i asked these: 1. perhaps rather than issuing the alleged
offenders with fines and 25 demerit points off their license perhaps since they
have admitted that it is not the polices responsibility to test the noise level
that they offer them a chance to get the car tested within a set period of time
and if the car is in fact legal then the demerit points are credited back to
their license and the fine wiped as they would not have broken the law, since
everyone in every job has bad days this could be dangerous to leave such a big
consequence up to the decision of an individual, i also mentioned that i
understood that it must be hard dealing mainly with scumbags all day and that
it is understandable particularly in their line of work to have those sad bad
days. my main reason for asking this question which i mentioned at the time was
to get away from the negativity that the "boy racers" feel towards the police
as i believe that targeting a specific group, in this case them, is picking on
a wide range of people of whom are only 2% of the driving problem on our roads.
the response i got from the police officer was that he believed they should be
picked on as they have had plenty of warnings, I agree that if they are
breaking the law then that is fair enough but the fact remains that they are
using 20% of our police resources to target 2% of the problem, it simply
doesn't make sense to me, especially since people like myself who are law
abiding and have factory exhausts on their car which happens to fit into the
"boy racer" category are getting targeted with them, as well as the fact that
they are ticketing people and issuing demerit points for offenses they cant
prove as breaking the law. not to mention that the police officer in charge of
all this couldn't even answer someone's question on how the cars are tested for
noisy exhausts.
My second question was this: Would it not make more sense to test a broader
range of vehicles and find out what passes and what fails the proposed 90db
limit so as they are not seen to be targeting a specific group. the reason i
asked this question is because i have read in a car magazine, i think it was NZ
CAR or something similar that is aimed at middle age people with standard cars,
that they conducted tests and found that buses failed, most Harley Davidson
motorbikes failed, and brand new Ford Falcons and Holden Commodores failed. if
they tested a broad range they could then say well these are the ones we should
concentrate on fixing as they have failed, this way it is not only one specific
group that is targeted and alienated.
I said that in my opinion they are not going to get anywhere by targeting the
whole group as they will only antagonize then further and create a bigger
problem. I also stated constantly that i have no problem with the noise limit
being lowered to 90DB and that i was there to help. I had even put together the
proposal which i uploaded to the forum to said police officer and the mayor.
While i was asking these questions i had people standing up and interrupting me
throughout, making comments like "ask some proper f-ing questions" and making
statements like "Buses don't operate at 1am"
these were adults, and were in my opinion very disrespectful and rude.
especially considering i sat there and listened to them without interrupting or
being disrespectful in any manner.
I am also on the email list which gets facts on the bust that police have done
on this matter and this morning i received an email stating this:
Weekend 27, 28 June as follows
60 Speed
42 Noise
13 Seatbelts
12 Licence Breaches
2 Pink Stickers
1 Green Stickers
1 Vehicle Impound
Friday Night was by far the most productive. Saturday as you know rained for
the WHOLE night.
The boy racers met on Sat at the Ferrymead Mitre 10 for their drive. There
would have been about 100 cars that turned up which for them would have been
quite a good turn out considering the weather.
We had about 8 police car assisting with disrupting them which was very
effective. The never really made it half way through their plotted course.
We just kept diverting groups of approx 10 car down other street until it
fizzled out.
Now firstly i would like to say that those numbers are most likely minimal as i
am sure that if they concentrated as much effort into policing general road
users as they do "Boy racers" then the numbers would be much higher.
Secondly for the police to know where and when a cruise was to occur then it
must have been an organized event, there are no comments to say it was a
troublesome cruise ate all but yet the police felt it necessary to use 8 police
cars which probably means 16 officers to interrupt and break up the organized
event. I would like to know how they split the traffic up as surely it is not
legal for a police officer to just decide that you are not heading that way,
you are going to make a detour and go somewhere else. Surely this is harassment
and i would be surprised if there wasn't grounds for legal action. if they
weren't breaking any laws then why target them. surely a harmless drive is not
against the law.
As i said earlier, I am beginning to no longer feel proud of our city. it is
becoming a police state if you are interested in cars.
I have started the process to start up my own car club where i intend to have
such events as cruises and treasure hunts, I had every intention of using the
money from the events to give away petrol vouchers and also compliant exhausts
and I was also going to push the notion that those who are being targeted can
win the day by becoming responsible and taking action to beat the police and
public at their own game by making the choice to become legally loud so that
they have nothing to complain about. the only thing i fear is that the anti
youth movement will step things up and find something else to complain about
until there is nothing left for young people to do in Christchurch but socially
acceptable things such as get plastered and go to a rugby game.
Finally someone who's under 30 on this list !! I was starting to believe
that it wasn't really a forum for all Cantabrians, but for those who's
letters type the loudest!
I get to hear stories about police TARGETING boy racers (even the name 'boy
racer' is offensive for me)... I heard about a young boy (A) who wasn't
fully licensed who asked his friend (B) who was fully licensed to drive to
friend (C)'s house to pick up 2 young people. While they drove there, a cop
pulled them over and issued a ticket because Friend B didn't own the car and
didn't have permission from friend A's mother.
They got to friend C's house and picked up the both friends. Four people in
the car by this stage. The friend they picked up drove back to Friend A's
house. another fully licensed driver.
AGAIN, they got pulled over by the cops. Another ticket.
The mother was so angry with the cops because the car got towed for 28 days
and didn't understand what the problem was since her son was wise enough to
ask his fully licensed friend to drive. She did acknowledge that her son
didn't ask permission, BUT for the cops to steal (my words) her car and
taking away the parents role as being a parent... in the good old days when
cops were 'police officers' and who knew everyone, the police officer who
ring the parents and ask what was going on. How far we've come...
They didn't drive over the speed limit, they didn't drive like an idiot,
they weren't drinking, .... they LOOKED like young people, and that was
enough for the cops to stop them TWICE in a matter of hours.
This is incredible.
The mother said that she needed her car for work as a real estate agent, and
that she would have to BUY another car for work. Can you believe this...
So ya,...
There are not just angry young people, but angry young people's parents..
and attitude from Parker and his mates of 'we know better'... well, that's
what you get when a candidate doesn't front up to mayoral debates and gets
his "used car saleman's' picture plastered all over the back end of buses--
ya end up with black smoke for a mayor. Great vision, a?
Hi Natalie,
On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 11:36 +1200, Doglinks NZ wrote:
> They got to friend C's house and picked up the both friends. Four people in
> the car by this stage. The friend they picked up drove back to Friend A's
> house. another fully licensed driver.
>
> AGAIN, they got pulled over by the cops. Another ticket.
>
> The mother was so angry with the cops because the car got towed for 28 days
> and didn't understand what the problem was since her son was wise enough to
> ask his fully licensed friend to drive. She did acknowledge that her son
> didn't ask permission, BUT for the cops to steal (my words) her car and
> taking away the parents role as being a parent... in the good old days when
> cops were 'police officers' and who knew everyone, the police officer who
> ring the parents and ask what was going on. How far we've come...
Just to get this clear, did the car get towed on the spot when the
second ticket was issued ?
I don't really care when the car was towed. Its the fact that it WAS TOWED
and young people again are in the firing line, intimidated and harassed for
such blatantly spurious reasons. Canterbury is becoming the leading
province that preys on its young ?
To reply to Nathan, good on you for going though, your heart was in the
right place. These public meetings are for political and public venting and
windowdressing only, the 'solutions' are a nonsense. More laws and police
powers - when they've already got plenty.
The public meeting I went to about liquor in the central city was similar.
Several people mentioned their strong concern over 24hr elcheapo supermarket
sales, but the meeting only addressed about small local outlets, what a
joke. Unlike faceless supermarket owners, the local outlets have local
face-to-face operators who close fairly early, which I think is far more
socially acceptable. However I notice Eastgate Countdown now closes at
midnight, so perhaps they at least got the message. I daresay if they're
not pushing alcohol all night its not worth opening.
Meanwhile local womens' refuges are still as busy as ever.
Nathan, If you want public support to stop this excessive level of enforcement you need to emphasise that the focus on "boy-racers" is compromising the Road Safety to 2010 Strategy. To be able to do this in an informed manner you need to start with the original consultation documents and submissions, available here: http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/strategy-2010/index.html and here: http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/publications/2010.html Of particular importance is the absence of any reference to a boy racer or young hoon problem. The activity the submitters wanted the Police to target on Friday and Saturday nights is alcohol. The proportion of fatal crashes in which alcohol is a contributing factor has increased from 25% in 2000 to 30 in 2006. In the same period alcohl offence prosecutions increased 25%, speeding infringement notices increased 100% and other infrigement notices increased 200%. These figures come from the two reviews of the strategy implementation to 2005. These reports are available at the MOT website, search for the author's names: Breen and Duignan. You will find copies of the Safety (Administration) Program in the engineering library at the university. You will need these to compare the funding increases and enforcement hours for each road safety target area: speed, alcohol, seat belts,etc. 20% of Canterbury's road policing resources are being targetted at noisy exhausts. This means that none of the additional funding provided to implement the Road Safety to 2010 Strategy is actually being spent for it's intended purpose. As Transit has not received any additional funding for highway safety engineering, relative to the baseline years used in the discussion document the strategy is, in fact, entirely dependent on the additional funding for enforcement of serious offences. Also note that the target of fewer than 300 deaths in 2010 assumed continued traffic growth of 3% per annum. Thanks to skyrocketing fuel prices there has been less than 1% traffic growth p.a. The demographic profile of the decrease in the road toll between 1999 and 2004 has occurred just once before - between 1973 and 1977. That profile is unique in that the reduction of passenger deaths was twice as great as the reduction for drivers and the reduction in the under 25 age group was double that of the over 25 age group. Entirely consistent with a reduction in high occupancy recreational travelon the open road as a response to an unexpected and substantial increase in fuel prices. Without these two consequences of the fuel price increases there is a high statistical probability that there would have been no reduction in the road toll at all. Entirely what would be expected if the additional funding for road safety enforcement has been substantially redirected to tackle a high profile public nuisance problem. Land Transport NZ financial statements indicate there has actually been a decrease in spending on highway safety engineering in the Major Projects category that outweighs the increased spending on Minor Safet Works. That does suggest that the diversion of enforcement resources may be unique or unusually large in Canterbury. As long as there is a strong public belief boy racers are the only ones sufferring from the high level of enforcement there will of course continue to be strong public support for that high level of enforcement. If the public can be educated on the risks that this diversion of resources is creating for themselves and their own "law abiding" children then we will either see the enforcement resources being used where they were originally meant to be used or additional resources provided if the public considers noise pollution to be as important as saving lives.
Nathan
I totally sympathise with you and all the other law abiding so called 'boy
racers.'
I don't think it is fair for the council and police to harrass our youth.
For goodness sake people - ease off on our youth - Our male children are
given cars to play with from year dot and the practice continues and evoles
throughout their lives from collecting cars to buying and owning cars to
watching cars racing etc.- Who are the big 'heroes' locally and
internationally - What is one of the great glamour sports? Car Racing of
course and we sure get plenty of it on TV - for hours some times when all
you hear is the zoom zoom of the cars going round and round.- my husband is
a fan but I don't get it.
I commend your pro active initiatve to try and communicate on this issue, by
going to that meeting and posting on this forum.
I think it is a good idea to start a club that will assist with information
sharing to keep people within the law.
Competitiveness is in our blood. Before cars it was horses and chariots etc.
Remember Ben Hur?
I also think there has been some mislabelling. I would call it youth
cruising - car enthusiasts who like to get together to socialise and compare
notes. In a highly mobile society this is a natural progression. Youth
cruising is nothing new. It is a form of promenading which is a natural part
of all human societies.
By labelling it 'boy racers' it gives a negative image with the impression
of everyone being law breakers and therefore a fair target for the
authorities.
What you need is an ' image makeover'. Where are your 'spin doctors' and you
better call in Sachi and Sachi !
You also need to know what your rights are so that you are not being
'bullied' either. Perhaps go and talk to someone at Community Law Office in
Madras Street or your local M.P.
I agree with your ideas to get everyone legally compliant then the
authorities will have no reason to harass you.
Then if you continue to be pulled over for no reason you will be within your
rights to make a formal complaint of harrassment.
Under the "Universal Declaration of Human rights"
You could look at the first part of Article 2 " Everyone is entitled to all
the rights and freedoms....., without distinction of any kind, such as race,
colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or
social origin, property (as in cars), birth or other status.
Article 5 No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or
degrading treatment or punishment. ( Picking on 'boy racers' and treating
them too harshly could be regarded as 'degrading treatment'.)
Article 7 " All are equal before the law and are entitled without any
discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal
protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and
against any incitement to such discrimination" ( Are the Christchurch City
Council and the media guilty of inciting discrimination against the 'boy
racers' ?)
Article 9 " No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or
exile" ( Did the police have the right to detour and disrupt the parade on
the basis of the predjudice/discriminatory labelling of 'boy racers'?) (
Were they 'detained' from proceeding to where they wanted to go?)
Article 13 "Everyone has the right to freedom of movement...."
Article 20 " Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and
association"
So Nathan hopefully you will feel that not everyone is against you. The way
to make progress on any issue is to have all the interested parties around
the table to try to work through to a satisfactory solution. I know you felt
no one was listening to you at the meeting, but I hope with a bit of legal
advise perhaps from the Community Law Centre or a lawyer, you should make
progress for guidlines for your union of common interest with your friends
who have cars.
Call it a Parade and drive with dignity. Purr rather than Roar.
Don't get mad - get your rights sorted.
Kevyn Miller can be hard to read, but famously stated on this column that
a mistake on the road, should not be a death sentence
if we can prevent it.
I heard on the grapevine that Kevyn Miller is about to receive the
Medalli of Quixote
Kevyn Miller can be hard to read, but famously stated on this column that
a mistake on the road, should not be a death sentence
if we can prevent it.
I heard on the grapevine that Kevyn Miller is about to receive the
Medallion of Quixote
Thanks Paula, Irinka and Kevyn for your kind words and assistance.
I have had it suggested to me that with the current fuel prices and the recent
statistics on crime in Christchurch etc that perhaps the fact that they are
wasting such a lot of money and resources on the seemingly small problem that
it might be worthwhile contacting a news crew to do a story on it. Not sure if
i want to go down that road yet but hey at least i am getting good feedback.
I am glad that it isn't just me who thinks that there are some serious issues
with the way that this problem is being dealt with. I agree that the best way
to solve a problem is to get everyone involved to sit round a table and to talk
things out, unfortunately with the maturity of the people who attended that
meeting i would suggest that it would only end in a screaming match.
Thanks once again for the support.
Kind regards,
Nathan