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There are 16 posts — by 6 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Jack Rowe at May 12 01:45 UTC

From: Robert Jones Date: May 06 16:12 UTC Short link

I am very new to backyard gardening. But, even a novice has to start somewhere.
I and my neighbor have started a plot about six feet by eight feet to grow a
few vegetables. Can someone help us by suggesting how to start a compost pile?
Also, I suspect we need a piece of chicken wire about 10 to 12 feet long to
make an enclosure. Does anyone have some to spare or know where I can get this
wire? A friend has offered us some horse manure to get it started. I know this
question my seem a little lame to some of you, but we have to start somewhere.

From: Erin Ambrose Date: May 06 16:45 UTC Short link

hey there....there as many ways to compost as there
are humans doing it but heres some of my
tricks....which are of the sloooow composting
variety...

 wood pallets make a nice secure and quick enclosure,
they allow for ventilation and the front one can swing
open when its time to turn the pile!

i do a casserole type compost pile, the layers being
3-5"carbon (leaves, weeds ect.) 3-5"kitchen waste and
then a few inches of dirt (i mix dirt and a bit of
aged manure) to keep the smell and flies under control
then start again with carbon. the very very bottom of
the pile should include some sticks or old sunflower
stalks or the like to encourage venting from the
bottom.keep building the casserole over time, water it
now and then to keep it moist but not soggy, layer til
about 4 feet high at least then when its seems to be
shrinking a bit ...give it a turn. in turning get the
inside out and outside in.

another good thing about pallets is when the first
pile is built and turning you can add pallets on in a
row to make the next pile to build.

some folks are of the mind that in ground composting
is better in the high desert...can't argue with that,
but the casserole is what i've always done...so i'm
stickin' w/ it.

i'd also suggest building the pile near or under a
tree or tall bushy things as its an environment more
conducive to micro-organism, composting type activity.

good luck!

From: Erin Ambrose Date: May 06 16:50 UTC Short link

one mistake....you want the kitchen waste layer to
only be a couple inches !! not as much as the
carbon.....

From: Pat Leahan Date: May 06 17:08 UTC Short link

And it's handy to have one compost chamber bin to hold the composting
materials. That's always helpful.  Like, build two chambers side-by-
side.  In one chamber would be the compost, and in the other would be
the materials you'll add to the compost.  So all you have to do is
reach over, grab the stuff and add it on.

There are also "proper" ways to do composting so as to discourage
those critters that some call rodents.  The internet is full of
ideas.  So much to read, so little time.

I have gotten free pallets from SPC Office Products on Douglas Avenue
(near A Farmer's Wife and Gordon's Jewelers).

And if you're going to eventually use the compost on edible plants,
you don't want to be using treated wood.  Herrera's Lumber in Sapello
has slab lumber for really cheap (505-264-5265, 505-760-5223).

pat leahan

On May 6, 2008, at 10:38 AM, erin ambrose wrote:

hey there....there as many ways to compost as there
are humans doing it but heres some of my
tricks....which are of the sloooow composting
variety...

  wood pallets make a nice secure and quick enclosure,
they allow for ventilation and the front one can swing
open when its time to turn the pile!

i do a casserole type compost pile, the layers being
3-5"carbon (leaves, weeds ect.) 3-5"kitchen waste and
then a few inches of dirt (i mix dirt and a bit of
aged manure) to keep the smell and flies under control
then start again with carbon. the very very bottom of
the pile should include some sticks or old sunflower
stalks or the like to encourage venting from the
bottom.keep building the casserole over time, water it
now and then to keep it moist but not soggy, layer til
about 4 feet high at least then when its seems to be
shrinking a bit ...give it a turn. in turning get the
inside out and outside in.

another good thing about pallets is when the first
pile is built and turning you can add pallets on in a
row to make the next pile to build.

some folks are of the mind that in ground composting
is better in the high desert...can't argue with that,
but the casserole is what i've always done...so i'm
stickin' w/ it.

i'd also suggest building the pile near or under a
tree or tall bushy things as its an environment more
conducive to micro-organism, composting type activity.

good luck!

--- Robert Jones <robertjones2001@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am very new to backyard gardening. But, even a
> novice has to start somewhere. I and my neighbor
> have started a plot about six feet by eight feet to
> grow a few vegetables. Can someone help us by
> suggesting how to start a compost pile? Also, I
> suspect we need a piece of chicken wire about 10 to
> 12 feet long to make an enclosure. Does anyone have
> some to spare or know where I can get this wire? A
> friend has offered us some horse manure to get it
> started. I know this question my seem a little lame
> to some of you, but we have to start somewhere.
>
>
> Robert Jones
> Las Vegas
> Info about Robert Jones:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/robertjones2001
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From: Dennis Knicely Date: May 06 17:12 UTC Short link

How I do it... Dig a hole app. 1' deep, deeper if you want, but 3' - 4'
square,... bigger or smaller, depending on how much compost goes in. Sometimes
I just dig a quick hole, throw in compost, and cover with soil, leveling
ground.
There are numerous ways to compost, just make sure freshcompost has asoil layer
covering it, to cut down on bugs and help it break down. Sometimes it's good to
throw in a layer of lawn clippings, weeds, or grass, to help balance ph, adding
alkalinity, balancing acids created from decomposition. Red worms help quicken
the process, and can sometimes be bought from other folks. Spraywater oncompost
pile occasionally,as it breaks down faster when wet. It takes anywhere from 2
weeks to 3 months for compost to mature, dependingon different factors. Winter
compost takes much longer to mature, because of cold. Move freshcompost pileto
new location every month or two, so older pile[s] will be made available for
use.
Note: Only non-animal products should be used in composting, as even egg shells
attract rodents and other undesirable pests.
Every week or two compost should be turned, as this mixes nutrient as well as
expediting the break down. You'll know when compost is mature and ready for
use. It turns to soil, yet mostly darker and richer than regular soil.
Some cities and hardwares sell composters, plastic barrels in different designs
and shapes. These work in small spaces where ground space and sanitary issues
might be factors.
Dennis Knicely

From: Dennis Knicely Date: May 06 17:32 UTC Short link

One other note: As Erin posted, carbon/charcoal from wood stoves also works
with compost. Sincethere isa big pile from last Winter, lately I just take and
mix compost with it. When that pile is mature, it simply gets spread out as
needed.
There is no one right way to do composting. Everyone will have their own
version. The bottom line is recycling back to the soil what is necessary to
sustain our gardens and life itself as we know it.
Dennis Knicely

From: Pat Leahan Date: May 06 17:37 UTC Short link

Right!  And the key is to use the compost.  Too many well-intentioned
folks start a compost pile, feeling like they're making a difference,
but then the pile just gets added to and not tended or utilized. So
it's important to make the full commitment with the goal of
eventually returning those nutrients back to the Earth.

pat leahan

On May 6, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Dennis Knicely wrote:

One other note: As Erin posted, carbon/charcoal from wood stoves also
works with compost. Sincethere isa big pile from last Winter, lately
I just take and mix compost with it. When that pile is mature, it
simply gets spread out as needed.
There is no one right way to do composting. Everyone will have their
own version. The bottom line is recycling back to the soil what is
necessary to sustain our gardens and life itself as we know it.
Dennis Knicely

From: Jeanette Hart Date: May 06 21:49 UTC Short link

Re: composting

We build large compost piles out of straw bales.  I like this method in arid
enviros because loss of moisture in the pile is minimalized. Also the edges
of the pile maintain heat.  We then put tarps over the piles to keep from
further moisture loss.

Happy composting
jenn hart-mann

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Patricia A. Leahan <paleahan@zialink.com>
wrote:

> Right!  And the key is to use the compost.  Too many well-intentioned
> folks start a compost pile, feeling like they're making a difference,
> but then the pile just gets added to and not tended or utilized. So
> it's important to make the full commitment with the goal of
> eventually returning those nutrients back to the Earth.
>
> pat leahan
>
> On May 6, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Dennis Knicely wrote:
>
> One other note: As Erin posted, carbon/charcoal from wood stoves also
> works with compost. Sincethere isa big pile from last Winter, lately
> I just take and mix compost with it. When that pile is mature, it
> simply gets spread out as needed.
> There is no one right way to do composting. Everyone will have their
> own version. The bottom line is recycling back to the soil what is
> necessary to sustain our gardens and life itself as we know it.
> Dennis Knicely
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
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> Dennis Knicely
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From: Erin Ambrose Date: May 06 22:47 UTC Short link

oooooooo...i like the strawbale idea. yay!

--- Jeanette Hart <jeanette.hart@gmail.com> wrote:

> Re: composting
>
> We build large compost piles out of straw bales.  I
> like this method in arid
> enviros because loss of moisture in the pile is
> minimalized. Also the edges
> of the pile maintain heat.  We then put tarps over
> the piles to keep from
> further moisture loss.
>
> Happy composting
> jenn hart-mann
>
> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Patricia A. Leahan
> <paleahan@zialink.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Right!  And the key is to use the compost.  Too
> many well-intentioned
> > folks start a compost pile, feeling like they're
> making a difference,
> > but then the pile just gets added to and not
> tended or utilized. So
> > it's important to make the full commitment with
> the goal of
> > eventually returning those nutrients back to the
> Earth.
> >
> > pat leahan
> >
> > On May 6, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Dennis Knicely wrote:
> >
> > One other note: As Erin posted, carbon/charcoal
> from wood stoves also
> > works with compost. Sincethere isa big pile from
> last Winter, lately
> > I just take and mix compost with it. When that
> pile is mature, it
> > simply gets spread out as needed.
> > There is no one right way to do composting.
> Everyone will have their
> > own version. The bottom line is recycling back to
> the soil what is
> > necessary to sustain our gardens and life itself
> as we know it.
> > Dennis Knicely
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________
> > ____________
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and
> > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
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> >
> mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
> > Dennis Knicely
> >
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From: Jack Rowe Date: May 07 14:17 UTC Short link

Moisture-retention is definitely a big one for local composting, as Jeanette
mentions, uncovered piles dry out very quickly.

I add a little wood ash (K), a little rock phosphate (P and Ca) and a fair
amount of gypsum (Ca and a degree of protection from salting since our water is
high in salt) to compost so they can start entering the food chain early, as
they do this slowly. The P and Ca are pretty consistently deficient in SW
soils.

Chickens make the best compost... they turn it (doesn't seem to bother their
lower backs as much as it does mine), they eat meat scraps and turn them into
eggs instead of more skunk meat, they manure it, and they chop it up nicely.
Chickens convert chicken food to human food more efficiently than any other
terrestrial animals. They'll eat most of what we do, and as US-ians 2-1/2 of us
waste on average enough to feed one other person (or a lot of chickens) though
a lot of this waste is from restaurants.

Locally, animal manures are pretty available and usually come mixed w/
straw/bedding for a decent C:N ratio for decomposition right off the bat.

From: Jack Rowe Date: May 07 14:21 UTC Short link

Another two cents'... much nutritional value is lost in a compost pile, to be
honest. Layering the same materials right onto your garden as mulch is very
effective, and labor-saving, and supplies soil- and water-conserving mulches
(which are otherwise locally scarce).

From: Robert Jones Date: May 07 15:20 UTC Short link

Thanks for all the suggestions. I guess I know where to get wood as (my
neighbor has a wood-burning stove). so, please tell me where to get rock
phosphate and gypsum . . . and how much is "a little". Chickens are probably
out of the question due to the small size of my in town lot.

From: Jack Rowe Date: May 07 17:43 UTC Short link

Hi Robert,

Rock Phosphate and gypsum both come from organic gardening stores, usually
Payne's in SF has them both, also the one on Ruffina whose name is escaping
me... a first application of gypsum might be 10 to 40 pounds per 100 sq ft (I'd
make that decision on how long I'd been gardening in the spot and whether I was
using city  water, well water or rainwater... point being salt buildup, with
well water being saltiest and rainwater least... the gypsum acts to counteract
the effects of the salt, which in this context are basically to pull water away
from roots because the salt is hydrophilic... salt is the Southwest gardener's
worst enemy, especially over the medium to long terms). If you've been using
groundwater and gardening in the same spot for 5 or more years, you should be
able to see a visible difference between watering with groundwater and
rainwater (in how much the plants perk up).

Rock phosphate you can add at maybe a cup or two per 100 sq ft, couple cups if
first time and less subsequently. Bone meal would act similarly, but is more
expensive usually and not as long-lasting (on the other hand, quicker to become
soluble if a first application). Too much rock phosphate will raise pH too high
and render itself (and some other nutrients) insoluble. Good organic matter
will lessen/buffer this effect.

Wood ashes should also be used sparingly (same reason, easy to raise pH
excessively) and mostly supply potassium which isn't usually much of a problem
anyway, I'd do a cup or two/100 sq ft.

From: Jeanette Hart Date: May 08 05:06 UTC Short link

I have a question for any who might have some ideas...we live rurally and
cannot recycle our waste (paper, etc).  So we began an experiement,
composting all our paper waste (minus the plastic windows, etc) with animal
manure. This involves layers of materials, water, heat, and time.  Has any
one else tried to do this?  Any suggestions?

thx
jenn hart-mann


On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Jack Rowe <jackrowe@tinyorb.net> wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> Rock Phosphate and gypsum both come from organic gardening stores, usually
> Payne's in SF has them both, also the one on Ruffina whose name is escaping
> me... a first application of gypsum might be 10 to 40 pounds per 100 sq ft
> (I'd make that decision on how long I'd been gardening in the spot and
> whether I was using city  water, well water or rainwater... point being salt
> buildup, with well water being saltiest and rainwater least... the gypsum
> acts to counteract the effects of the salt, which in this context are
> basically to pull water away from roots because the salt is hydrophilic...
> salt is the Southwest gardener's worst enemy, especially over the medium to
> long terms). If you've been using groundwater and gardening in the same spot
> for 5 or more years, you should be able to see a visible difference between
> watering with groundwater and rainwater (in how much the plants perk up).
>
> Rock phosphate you can add at maybe a cup or two per 100 sq ft, couple
> cups if first time and less subsequently. Bone meal would act similarly, but
> is more expensive usually and not as long-lasting (on the other hand,
> quicker to become soluble if a first application). Too much rock phosphate
> will raise pH too high and render itself (and some other nutrients)
> insoluble. Good organic matter will lessen/buffer this effect.
>
> Wood ashes should also be used sparingly (same reason, easy to raise pH
> excessively) and mostly supply potassium which isn't usually much of a
> problem anyway, I'd do a cup or two/100 sq ft.
>
>
> Jack Rowe
> Sapello
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From: Jack Rowe Date: May 12 01:32 UTC Short link

I'll bite (oh, there's a surprise)... I've used a little paper, doesn't hurt
anything and is a valid source of carbon/organic matter... needs a lot of
nitrogen to break down -- as long as there's plenty N for its decomposition +
plant growth it is very good at tilth/aeration and holding moisture...
eventually turns to humus. Ignoring peat's low pH, paper and peat are very
similar in function in the soil (bulk fiber, tilth/aeration, moisture
retention). I don't love it in the garden because I see little pieces, not a
very serious problem and avoided by composting first as you're doing.

Newspaper laid flat 10 - 15 sheets thick can also be used like cardboard under
compost/mulch and over lawns to create instant gardens, they need about 3
inches of some real soil on top of the paper and for the paper/cardboard to be
in good contact w/ the soil below (i.e., scalp the existing grass as low as you
can get it). Add some compost to the soil (I use pure compost if I have it) and
then layer some compost over the soil (~inch), mulch, water well and you can
plant as soon as things aren't too soggy.

The paper/cardboard will let roots through, but will stop shoots of grass and
other existing vegetation from coming through. The grass smothers/starves under
the paper in some weeks. I usually run the paper out a ways from the bed and
then cover it w/ path material like wood shavings, gets the grass back a ways
so it doesn't grow into the new beds so quickly. If you're working in grass
that spreads around underground, some vertical edging going down 6" or even a
foot around beds will save a lot of work later.

For a while these gardens need more water than usual since it takes a while
(first season) for the paper/cardboard to break down enough to freely pass
water. Drip is much better than sprinkling since it takes so long for water to
penetrate at first (poor-man's drip: turn the hose very low and move the end
around a lot, I like an egg timer for this task).

Commonest problems I've seen were poor contact between paper/cardboard and
underlying soil; too-light a mix on top of paper (needs to be like soil); and
not letting water penetrate extra-long at first (i.e. dries out, which it also
does w/ too light a mix). All in all, a perfectly great way to get a garden bed
going in short order, especially if the little extra water isn't an issue.

From: Jack Rowe Date: May 12 01:45 UTC Short link

Since this thread was started by a new gardener, here are some of my favorite
gardening tips:

Start small and close to a door, pref. on the way to the car ("best fertilizer
is the footsteps of the gardener," Chinese). Gardens are easy to forget/avoid
until they are part of your routine.

Imitate Nature... minerals predominating below, organic mulches/composts above
(mulch above compost), mulches continually added.

Compost: balance nitrogen-rich materials (manure, grass clippings, etc... these
will stink if wetted and piled) with carbon-rich (leaves, straw... these smell
musty if wetted and piled, break down slowly), keep moist (tarp?) or just add
to garden surface as needed to maintain 2 - 3 inches.

Supply nitrogen boosts as season progresses to keep growth up (manure tea,
blood meal, fish emulsion, manure mulch, etc.). Weak, frequent applications
work better than strong, infrequent ones.

Check for pests and deal with them early. Can hand-pick cabbage worms (usually
under leaves, medium holes) or use Safer insecticidal soap (or encourage wasps
which kill them); slap flea beetles (lots of tiny holes, black fleas under
leaves jump away when disturbed) onto white cardboard covered w/ half-and-half
dish soap and oil, repeat daily for a few days; mow around gardens for up to 25
yds to keep grasshoppers away.

Can't have too many greens.

Under-mulch drip saves time, water, slows salinization effects.

Let soil dry to an inch or so before watering... if plants wilt during heat,
check soil moisture, sometimes they just can't keep up w/ the heat and will be
fine when the sun's a little lower (30% shade cloth will help this -- if
they're wilting a lot when soil is wet, suspect over-watering or salt).

Use rainwater to avoid/repair salt problems. Accumulation of salt is a major
hurdle to sustainable gardening in arid/semi-arid areas.

Mix veggies together free-form, w/ shorter ones on side toward sun, to take
advantage of interplanting benefits as well as minimizing/confusing pests.

Learn to eat grasshoppers.

Add to the topic How to start a compost pile [?]

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