All posts in the topic Alley Plowing (Short link)
Summary
- There are 24 posts — by 19 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Tim Erickson at 2006 Dec 13 21:47 UTC
Not to be a whiner, but I'm getting really tired of the annual Alley Plowing
ritual. Maybe we already went over this (or maybe I'm confusing it with
garbage hauling), but I just need to vent and get your opinion(s).
Most years we almost break even - one year we "made" money - but last year our
household had to pay about $100 while several neighbors didn't pay one thin
dime. Is that fair? Is it our sole responsibility? How do you guys get it
done?
I'm burning out (although I have to admit, my darling wife has been dealing
with it the last two years). How do you attempt to extract money from the
people who don't feel the need to pay, and do you ever feel like egging their
houses? I feel like "an enabler" sometimes - dealing with alley plowing, alley
maintenance (ours is gravel), snow emergencies (sign), and recycling (sign)
allows our neighbors to just evolve into inactive mush.
We pay $325 for the season, and have about 20 households on the alley. Some
don't have garages (or access them from the street), but all have garbage cans
and public safety needs.
I'd rather have everyone pay the City $20 per year to do it than have us get
stuck with the lion's share of the bill every year. Currently it's unfair and
a royal pain in the neck.
Feeling crabby and watching more jobs being outsourced in/from Maplewood,
A. M. Hine
I live on a corner, and I don't use the alley. I go back there to mow, and pick
up trash... twice this year, TVs have been dumped, which I called in. But I
guess I'm exempt on my block. I do my part with the big-ass snowblower though,
clearing a significant distance of sidewalks around my corner, and the older
peoples' driveways and walks--- so I kinda feel like I get a pass. But I
wondered, when I bought my house, who did the alleys in the winter.
So that's it! A communal kitty, eh? Sort of a social contract-y kind of
arrangement, huh? And, of course, there are some who don't feel that they
should pay their fair share?
Huh.
Well, in this instance, I can see a nice, satisfying solution: Pile up excees
snow in front of their garages. Pack it in nice and tight. At least you don't
have to truck it out to, like, Woodbury, or Wayzata or something.
I pay $14 each winter for alley plowing. Everyone on our block ponies up except
for one household that simply refuses, year after year. I don't park in my
garage off the alley but still -- the garbage trucks need to get through, and
$14 is practically nothing. One of my neighbors does the collecting each fall
and we each make out a check directly to the plowing guy. While this system
works on my block, I wonder how often it doesn't work -- it seems like a
sensible service for the city to provide it unless the city can't provide it as
efficiently.
Sarah Dirksen
Mac-Groveland
Bob Parker <bobpmn@earthlink.net> wrote:
I live on a corner, and I don't use the alley. I go back there to mow, and pick
up trash... twice this year, TVs have been dumped, which I called in. But I
guess I'm exempt on my block. I do my part with the big-ass snowblower though,
clearing a significant distance of sidewalks around my corner, and the older
peoples' driveways and walks--- so I kinda feel like I get a pass. But I
wondered, when I bought my house, who did the alleys in the winter.
So that's it! A communal kitty, eh? Sort of a social contract-y kind of
arrangement, huh? And, of course, there are some who don't feel that they
should pay their fair share?
Huh.
Well, in this instance, I can see a nice, satisfying solution: Pile up excees
snow in front of their garages. Pack it in nice and tight. At least you don't
have to truck it out to, like, Woodbury, or Wayzata or something.
Just wondering: does your block have a block party each summer? or some
way for neighbors to see each other, if only once a year? On our block we
each pay $14; one good guy collects from all of us and negotiates with an
alley plower. We're on a corner lot, driveway exits on the avenue, so we
pay half price; that much, because we benefit, it is argued, from the
garbage truck being able to get get through.
Bill Stoesz
Highland
Why not let each household contract for it's own personal plowing service
(a la garbage hauling)? Hey, that would work. Might take a few days but that's
what independence is all about.
In other words: why oh why is this not a municipal service as it is in
Minneapolis (both garbage and plowing) where it works very very well.
St. Paul has it all over my home town when it comes to street plowing, why
is the ball dropped thereafter?
Our alley is plowed without problem, I'm still just upset about how many
garbage trucks run through one short block every week. How much energy wasted
and noise endured when it all could be so easily done in one swell foop.
Gnarly Jon Gorder
Cathedral Hill
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On Dec 5, 2006, at 10:34 PM, Jon Gorder wrote:
> In other words: why oh why is this not a municipal service as it is
> in Minneapolis (both garbage and plowing) where it works very very
> well.
Some folks who live on blocks without alleys or live in buildings,
might not even be aware of this annual ritual for most of us. In case
anyone is unaware, the city of St. Paul does not plow alleys, its up
to residents to either plow their own alley or collectively hire
someone to do it.
Is there any requirement that alleys are plowed?
I have mixed feelings about this "self organization" method. Its NOT
like garbage, in that some degree of coordination is required. It
actually encourages neighborhood residents to communicate and
coordinate, even if not so well. In some cases, it MIGHT even
encourage someone on the block to take a leadership role, which might
translate to more than just alley plowing. To some extent, I think it
helps build "social capital" on a block.
Also, I'm guessing that many blocks are plowed by volunteers who
happen to have a truck and a plow - and love the excuse to use them.
Its NOT a bad thing to have some civic work performed by volunteers.
If the city did it, there would probably be an ordinance preventing
folks from plowing their own alley.
Here is how its done on our block.
We have an snow plowing coordinator (I just made up the name, its
VERY unofficial) who agrees to organize this every year. My wife and
I (mostly my wife) have been the coordinators for the last 3 years.
We're the 3rd household to take on the job in the last 14 years that
we've been on the block.
Every year, we simply distribute a flyer to every house on the block
asking for about $15.00 from each house towards plowing. This is a
little more than necessary, to help cover if a couple of houses don't
pay. Usually, someone (I used to do this every year) pays late and
includes an extra $5 (guilt money) to help cover any possible
shortfall. In my experience, we usually end up with about what we
need. I don't think that we've been short more than $30 or $40 in the
years that we have coordinated.
The money usually trickles into our mailbox from November to
February. If we were organized enough to send out a reminder, even
just once, I think that the speed and number of payments would increase.
We then hire someone to plow the alley for the year. The last guy who
organized alley plowing on our block worked with someone from his
church, who does an excellent job. We continue to hire him. As far as
I know, he is just some retired guy who does this to supplement his
income. I've NEVER met the guy, I just wake up every morning with
confidence that my alley will already be plowed. Usually, before the
city streets.
So, for me the system works pretty well.
How do you do it on your block?
Is it working?
Tim Erickson
Hamline Midway
Our block has taken care of its own plowing for as
long as I've lived there (13 years) and for probably a
decade or two before that.
A guy on our block takes the lead on collecting - he's
done it for probably 20 years, so it must not be TOO
onerous. It's one of the block's annual rituals, one
of the few actual bits of "community" our block has.
The plow driver also lives on the block; he literally
HAS to plow us out first to get to his other gigs - so
we get EXTREMELY prompt, cheerful service.
Neither I nor anyone I know on my block would trade
the current system for anything. Keep your mitts off
my alley, my garbage and my internet, City of Saint
Paul.
Mitch Berg
The Midway
Since forever, I expect, but at least for the almost 14 years we've lived
here, our neighbor, Dave H, comes to everyone's door on a
late-November/early December weekday evening each year, tells us how much we
owe, and picks up a check. He came by last Friday around 7:00 p.m. for
$11.25, as I recall. He gets almost everyone in the first pass, he says. It
was up a quarter this year because he have new neighbors on our block who
haven't moved in yet, so we'll just cover for them this time. No flyers, no
emails, just Dave at the door and the plowing done early and well -- we
appreciate both a lot!
OK - here's how it doesn't work on my block. The person who last did it quit
in frustration a couple of years ago. The apartment on the end of the block
plows the first thity feet of the alley to get to their driveway. So, we drive
over the snow and there are two large ruts. When it gets bad in the spring
everyone parks on the street.
Chuck Repke
In our neighborhood- the same guy has been doing the alley plowing forever.
Our block receives a notice in our mailbox in October or early November with
the amount for the season- $24 this year, which seems pretty steep compared to
what I am seeing from other people. However, my neighbor across the street,
who has the same alley plowing person, collects for his block- as his dad did
before he bought the house from his parents. I don't have a really good idea
of how many people do or don't pay on our block since we mail it directly to
the guy. I will say that the plowing service we receive for our $24 is pretty
darn efficient.
I have no idea who tells this gentleman he will be plowing our alley though- to
my knowledge nobody does.
Tracy Lamparty
Payne-Phalen
"The Earth does not belong to us, We belong to the Earth" - Chief Seattle
"Anne R. Carroll" <carrfran@qwest.net> wrote: So since you're gnarly, maybe YOU
will look up swell foop, or fell swoop, A "fell swoop" (the actual term) is
a falconry definition for a killing dive from the bird. I just like saying
swell foop as no one knows what the hell it means anyway.
Now I'll move along in letters received and find I'm redundant.
Jon Gorder
Cathedral Hill
If the city plowed alleys might there be a problem with some really
small alleys? Does anyone know if the city equipment would fit in those
small alleys?
Does anyone know the history of alley plowing? Has alley plowing always
been a "private" adventure in Saint Paul?
Gena
Jon Gorder wrote:
>"Anne R. Carroll" <carrfran@qwest.net> wrote: So since you're gnarly, maybe
YOU will look up swell foop, or fell swoop, A "fell swoop" (the actual
term) is a falconry definition for a killing dive from the bird. I just like
saying swell foop as no one knows what the hell it means anyway.
My two cents:
I think that you all with alleys would pay even less if it was an across the
board assessment. I, like the two blocks that surround me have no alley and
don't pay anyone to plow them. And I am sure that a lot of edge neighborhoods
are simular. I do however spend a lot of time shoveling the 160 linear feet of
sidewalk that surrounds me.
Tonya Nicholie
West End
I'm the alley captain for my block; I assumed the role in 1998 after
discovering that our "H" shaped alley (with two speed bumps) was plowed by two
different contractors because two of my neighbors refused to cooperate with
each other (both have since moved). I distribute a flyer to each home on the
first Saturday in October using the same word file (only the date changes),
inviting contributions to be dropped in a box on my porch. A second notice is
distributed on the last Saturday in October for my less-prompt neighbors.
Alley plowing has gone from $340 per season to $370 over those years. I
collect $20 from each household, $10 from the four corners, for maximum
potential revenue of $480. Two of the houses are owned by the public housing
authority, and never pay. One corner house also never pays (snide comment
withheld), so my real potential revenue is $430. Most years I don't pay in
myself (I pay for one of the alley lights, $10-$15 a month) but there have been
two years (including this year)where I needed to; there are two rental houses
that pay sporadically and a couple that were vacant and on the market in
October (although one new neighbor stopped by a couple of weeks ago with a
check). I'm ahead $40 over nine years.
It's a little work, but I get to meet all of my neighbors, and it's part of the
charm of living in Mac-Groveland. My thank you gifts this year included
cookies and a squash. Plus our plowing guy gives us fantastic service; he does
the contiguous alleys on either side and frequently folks use our alleys as a
thoroughfare when the snow is really bad and the city hasn't come through yet.
matt
Matt Wells
Mac-Groveland
I'm new to my block this year (10 year resident on Randolph, moved to Inver
Grove Hts for 2 years, now back in W 7th on Scheffer). I have asked several of
the neighbors over the last couple of months about the alley situation in the
winter and everyone is clue less, but I did manage to get from someone this
type of a statement: "For years it was plowed really well, then all of a sudden
it stopped. Now we just drive over the ruts and deal with it."
I talked with my neighbor immediately next door and found out that he use to
take up the annual collection until a few years ago when they started heading
south for the winter. He told me that the collection was usually a pain, but
that he mostly broke even. I wasn't surprised by this as his house is one of
the best kept houses on the block next to mine - we also have about 6 or so new
owners on my block that are completely new to St. Paul.
I took the initiative and went out to bid for plowing last month. I know who
I'm going to use (I think) but am waiting until the 1st major snowfall before
contracting. I'm planning on waiting about 5-7 days so that everyone is
reminded really well about the pain of just driving in the ruts, then I'll call
up the guy and pay for plowing myself ($300 - $325 for the season depending on
contract). After he comes through, I have a form letter already made up that I
will stuff in everyone's door to explain their share, That I put up the seed
money for the service, what they are expected to pay and clearly outlining the
consequences of not getting payment. Consequences being the contractor will be
instructed only to plow from the street to my drive for the season. One way or
another - I'm not putting up with a non-plowed alley even if I have to pay the
service 100% myself.
Paul Skrbec
Ward 2 - W 7th resident
Gena, that's a good question. When the city (or community council?) switched
recycling contractors a few years ago, my block had to start putting recycling
out front because the trucks were too wide to comfortably fit down the alley.
Your alley too, maybe, since we're neighbors. And certainly, when the alley is
swept each summer some of the alley gardens take a beating from the wide
brushes. So ... a good question for which I have no answer.
Sarah Dirksen
Mac-Groveland
Gena Berglund <genab61@mindspring.com> wrote:
If the city plowed alleys might there be a problem with some really
small alleys? Does anyone know if the city equipment would fit in those
small alleys?
Does anyone know the history of alley plowing? Has alley plowing always
been a "private" adventure in Saint Paul?
Gena
Jon Gorder wrote:
>"Anne R. Carroll" wrote: So since you're gnarly, maybe YOU will look up swell
foop, or fell swoop, A "fell swoop" (the actual term) is a falconry definition
for a killing dive from the bird. I just like saying swell foop as no one knows
what the hell it means anyway.
Like I said when I moved to Mpls last year: sometimes (alleys plowed and
trash pickup) it seems like I moved to a real city. But then...
Bruce Leier
Powderhorn after 56 years in Saint Paul
A surprisingly interesting topic, Andrew, and I can see this being a vastly
different experience block to block. On my block the plow guy sends a letter
describing his service (plows every time there is an inch or more) and how many
years he's been doing and asks us to send $25 or something. Most of us do and
probably some of us don't, but he seems to find it worth his while and delivers
the service he promises. No muss, no fuss.
I'll give you my plow guy's info if you'd like. There is no reason that anyone
has to be the middleperson here. Matt shows there can be a benefit for the
collector, but no certainty of it. I think you should tell your plow-guy that
you want to get out of the collections business and since he's the one making
the money than he should be the one collecting it. Obviously you want your
backup plan set up in case he refuses.
Is there a yellow pages listing for alley plowers? Can we negotiate to get a
better deal? Good luck, Andrew and Happy Holidays!
There are two major benefits to a neighbor collecting. 1) People feel better paying/trusting a person they know. It is also less likely to have several plowers collecting at the same time. 2) $25 is a high price for a typical block of about 30 houses. $12-$15 will get the needed $300-$350. Overall my opinion about Saint Paul system vs Minneapolis is the Saint Paul system seems better, since the alleys are plowed well way before Minneapolis gets the job done. ken iosso wrote: > A surprisingly interesting topic, Andrew, and I can see this being a vastly different experience block to block. On my block the plow guy sends a letter describing his service (plows every time there is an inch or more) and how many years he's been doing and asks us to send $25 or something. Most of us do and probably some of us don't, but he seems to find it worth his while and delivers the service he promises. No muss, no fuss. > > I'll give you my plow guy's info if you'd like. There is no reason that anyone has to be the middleperson here. Matt shows there can be a benefit for the collector, but no certainty of it. I think you should tell your plow-guy that you want to get out of the collections business and since he's the one making the money than he should be the one collecting it. Obviously you want your backup plan set up in case he refuses. > > Is there a yellow pages listing for alley plowers? Can we negotiate to get a better deal? Good luck, Andrew and Happy Holidays! > - - - - - - - - - - - > > ken iosso > mac groveland, st paul > More info: http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/keniosso > > - - - - - - - - - - - > To post, send your message to: <email obscured> > > To unsubscribe type "unsubscribe" (without the quotation marks) in the > subject line and send to: <email obscured> > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/topic/200142 > > For digest or to update bio options (must log-in): > http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/groups/stpaul-issues/ > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > - - - - - - - - - - - > > Citizens Guide to St. Paul > http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul > > Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and items for investigation to: <email obscured> > - - - - - - - - - - - > > > >
The problem with this is that although the benefit goes to the group,
the cost is borne by an individual.
It takes me 4-6 hours each year to do the job of a collector. If I
were to charge even $25 an hour
for my time, I would have to add $150 to the amount I collect, or about
$15 per household. If I
don't charge for my time, I save $10, just like everybody else, and I
make about $1.50 an hour.
Bring on the plow guys who do the collecting! I'll gladly pay ten
bucks to save myself
six hours work!
Bob Treumann
I don't know how many subscribers to this list are aware of it, but a
local, independent, family-owned trash hauler in St. Paul offers
discounted block rates if a significant number of households on that
block sign up for the service.
Ken Berquist & Son Inc. serves the Highland Park, Macalester-
Groveland, Merriam Park, Summit Hill and West End neighborhoods of
the city. I don't know the particulars of the block rate arrangement,
but I can vouch for the quality of the service that I get from
Berquist for the commercial building I lease in Highland Park.
Berquist's phone number is 651-699-2442 if you care to learn more.
Michael Mischke
Summit Hill
For me and others in this discussion (I base this judgment on their
comments.), there is more to life than monetary income for our time. I
see my actions as part of fabric that creates a community. I like the
fact Saint Paul offers this opportunity. However, I must say that once
this relationship is established, my neighbors recognize, state, and
reward (through prompt payment) the partial value of my time. I often
collect at least $50 more @ $12/house than our bill of $350 or about
$10/hour.
Do not worry. Global warming will make alley plowing a need of the
past. ;-)
Ed Davis
so michael, do they plow alleys?
ed, as for your points - very legitimate, but you have chosen this exercise in
community and enjoy it.
i was responding to andrew and his wife, who were losing both time and money
doing something they did not enjoy. i know they do many things with their
community, but demanding their community's money, and doing quality control for
a product they have no power to control seems to be above and beyond.
(Caution: Long but interesting summary of Alley Plowing discussion)
I thought that the Alley Plowing discussion was very interesting and
drew an interesting mix of comments/participants. What was/is missing
from the discussion, I think, is a summary of what was said. Here is
my own quick effort, which might spark a new round of discussion or
simply serve as a conclusion to our discussion. Please, feel free to
forward this summary to other folks/city officials who might be
interested in this topic. Let me know if you find this useful?
Alley Plowing Discussion = 36 Messages (as of 12/13/06)
Discussion broke into following three topics
Alley Plowing
http://forums.e-democracy.org/topic/107343
Alley Plowing & Garbag
http://forums.e-democracy.org/topic/200053
Alley Plowing & Garbage
http://forums.e-democracy.org/topic/200027
Excerpts of discussion below, to read someone's entire post, follow
the link to their profile and find the link to the "alley plowing"
discussion.
Topic lead off with:
Andrew Hine - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/andrewh
"Not to be a whiner, but I'm getting really tired of the
annual Alley Plowing ritual."
"Most years we almost break even - one year we "made" money -
but last year our household had to pay about $100 while several
neighbors didn't pay one thin dime. Is that fair? Is it our
sole responsibility? How do you guys get it done?"
"I'd rather have everyone pay the City $20 per year to do it
than have us get stuck with the lion's share of the bill
every year. Currently it's unfair and a royal pain in the neck."
Sarah Dirkson - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/
sarahdirksen
"I pay $14 each winter for alley plowing. Everyone on our block
ponies up except for one household that simply refuses, year
after year."
"While this system works on my block, I wonder how often it
doesn't work -- it seems like a sensible service for the city
to provide it unless the city can't provide it as efficiently."
Bob Parker - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/bobparker
"I live on a corner, and I don't use the alley."
"...But I guess I'm exempt on my block."
"so I kinda feel like I get a pass. But I wondered, when I bought
my house, who did the alleys in the winter."
"So that's it! A communal kitty, eh?"
Bill Stoesz - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/willisstoesz
"Just wondering: does your block have a block party each summer?
or some way for neighbors to see each other, if only once a year?
On our block we each pay $14; one good guy collects from all of
us and negotiates with an alley plower. We're on a corner lot,
driveway exits on the avenue, so we pay half price; that much,
because we benefit, it is argued, from the garbage truck being
able to get get through."
Jon Gorder - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/jongorder
"why oh why is this not a municipal service as it is in Minneapolis
(both garbage and plowing) where it works very very well.
St. Paul has it all over my home town when it comes to street
plowing,
why is the ball dropped thereafter? Our alley is plowed
without problem..."
Tim Erickson - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/timerickson
"I have mixed feelings about this "self organization" method. Its
NOT like garbage, in that some degree of coordination is required.
It actually encourages neighborhood residents to communicate and
coordinate, even if not so well. In some cases, it MIGHT even
encourage someone on the block to take a leadership role, which
might translate to more than just alley plowing. To some extent,
I think it helps build "social capital" on a block."
Mitch Berg - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/mitchellberg
"Our block has taken care of its own plowing for as long as I've
lived there (13 years) and for probably a decade or two before
that."
"A guy on our block takes the lead on collecting - he's done it
for probably 20 years, so it must not be TOO onerous. It's one
of the block's annual rituals, one of the few actual bits of
"community" our block has."
"we get EXTREMELY prompt, cheerful service."
"Neither I nor anyone I know on my block would trade the current
system for anything. Keep your mitts off my alley, my garbage
and my internet, City of Saint Paul."
Anne Carroll - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/annecarroll
"Since forever, I expect, but at least for the almost 14 years
we've lived here, our neighbor, Dave H, comes to everyone's
door on a late-November/early December weekday evening each
year, tells us how much we owe, and picks up a check. He came
by last Friday around 7:00 p.m. for $11.25, as I recall. He
gets almost everyone in the first pass, he says."
Chuck Repke - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/chuckrepke
"OK - here's how it doesn't work on my block. The person who
last did it quit in frustration a couple of years ago. The
apartment on the end of the block plows the first thirty feet of
the alley to get to their driveway. So, we drive over the snow and
there are two large ruts. When it gets bad in the spring everyone
parks on the street."
Charlie Swope - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/
charlesswope
"Fact is, it doesn't work all that well for snow-plowing either.
In the alley where I used to live, there are about two or three
different plowers. They spend most of the winter shoving the snow
onto each others part of the alley and driveways."
Mitch Berg - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/mitchellberg
"They say "if it isn't broken, don't fix it". For the vast majority
of Saint Paul, the system isn't broken; people get into and out of
their alleys by one means or another; their garbage gets collected
just fine."
"I can't think of a single rational, empirical reason to change the
system, unless it's yet another empire-building power grab by city
bureaucracy and public employees unions..."
Andrew Hine - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/andrewh
"If the current system is working just fine for, say, 80% of the
population, what's wrong with having a new system work for 100% of
the people? I'd call that an improvement. It wouldn't cost you
any more than it does now, and for people like me, if would cost a
LOT less. People here are saying they're paying $11 and $14
dollars
- well, our paying neighbors contribute $20 mostly, and we're still
stuck with a $100 bill. So it's NOT working for me, see?"
Tracy Lamparty - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/
tracylamparty
"In our neighborhood- the same guy has been doing the alley plowing
forever. Our block receives a notice in our mailbox in October or
early November with the amount for the season- $24 this year,
which seems pretty steep compared to what I am seeing from other
people."
"I will say that the plowing service we receive for our $24 is
pretty
darn efficient."
"I have no idea who tells this gentleman he will be plowing our
alley
though- to my knowledge nobody does."
John Harris (Mpls) - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/
johnharris
"I am a fan of the government doing as little as it needs to but
garbage
hauling and alley plowing are two things I don't mind my city
doing."
Tony Schaps - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/tonyschaps
"I'd love to have an alley. Keep in mind that much of the city
blocks
do not have alleys, and if I could pay someone even $50 a year to
plow my driveway, I'd jump on that in a minute."
Gena Berglund - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/
genaberglund
"If the city plowed alleys might there be a problem with some really
small alleys? Does anyone know if the city equipment would fit in
those small alleys?"
"Does anyone know the history of alley plowing? Has alley plowing
always been a "private" adventure in Saint Paul?"
Tonya Nicholie - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/
tonyajohnson
"I think that you all with alleys would pay even less if it was an
across the board assessment. I, like the two blocks that surround
me have no alley and don't pay anyone to plow them."
Matt Wells - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/mattwells
"I'm the alley captain for my block; I assumed the role in 1998
after discovering that our "H" shaped alley (with two speed bumps)
was plowed by two different contractors because two of my neighbors
refused to cooperate with each other (both have since moved)."
"It's a little work, but I get to meet all of my neighbors, and it's
part of the charm of living in Mac-Groveland. My thank you gifts
this year included cookies and a squash. Plus our plowing guy
gives
us fantastic service; he does the contiguous alleys on either side
and frequently folks use our alleys as a thoroughfare when the snow
is really bad and the city hasn't come through yet."
Paul Skrbec - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/paulskrbec
"I have asked several of the neighbors over the last couple of
months
about the alley situation in the winter and everyone is clue less,
but I did manage to get from someone this type of a statement:
"For years it was plowed really well, then all of a sudden it
stopped. Now we just drive over the ruts and deal with it."
I talked with my neighbor immediately next door and found out that
he use to take up the annual collection until a few years ago when
they started heading south for the winter. He told me that the
collection was usually a pain, but that he mostly broke even."
"I'm not putting up with a non-plowed alley even if I have to pay
the
service 100% myself."
Atom Robinson - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/
atomrobinson
"it's easily argued that for every block that can amiably get their
act together, there are other blocks that, for whatever structural
or organizational reason, don't have the capacity to get it done."
"My neighborhood might serve as an apt example- we follow most of
the same procedures that other SPIFers have described. The same
older guy (let's call him "The Collector") wanders the block,
hitting up folks for checks, which he passes along to a plower,
who comes through the alley."
"The plower is worthless. Not only does he come late (if at all),
he barely scratches the surface of the snow, and invariably leaves
a thick film of ice that covers the alley from end to end."
"Discussing/arguing this matter with The Collector has, in the past,
yielded very few results, as the plower is a friend of his (how
'bout that for a no-bid contract?).
"Now, my neighbors didn't elect The Collector, nor did we appoint
him by acclamation at some block club gathering. He's just
"always done it.""
"I certainly appreciate that he takes it upon himself, but I don't
appreciate the vaguely racist rants he brings to my front door
every fall."
"I just want my alley plowed in a more efficient manner."
Tony Schaps - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/tonyschaps
"I frankly think the plowing service in Saint Paul is fair to
partly crummy. We have way too many ice ruts on our street, and
complaints fall on deaf ears. I really doubt that City crews could
do better in an alley."
Andrew Hine - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/andrewh
"I CANNOT GET $20 FROM EACH OF MY NEIGHBORS, AND I AM TIRED OF
TRYING AND LOSING MONEY! I'm damned if I do (organize the plowing
and pay more than my fair share) and damned if I don't (the alley
won't get plowed)."
Bob Treumann - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/bobtreumann
"I am the plow organizer, (by default, the last guy died) for our
block,
and I hate it."
"Almost all of my neighbors are gracious, pay promptly and thank me
for doing the annual collecting. However, a few of them seem intent
on making the job as hard as possible. Last year, one of them
told
me I should organize a neighborhood meeting to get feedback about
the plowing, get bids and interview other plowers. I reminded him
that it is not my job to do this, and if he wanted it done better,
he should do it himself. He had the nerve to tell me I didn't
know much about "customer service"!"
"I think he came very close to clobbering me with a snow shovel
last year."
"In my view, the city should do alley plowing AND garbage hauling.
Cities are supposed to organize services. It is called
"Civilization"."
Erik Hare - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/erikhare
"I hate being Mr. Wet Blanket, but it seems to me that there are
a LOT of alleys in Saint Paul. The plows are pretty busy
getting the streets plowed in 24 hours, let alone navigating
alleys."
"this is probably the most popular thing I've ever seen on here
(SPIF),
and I've been here from the beginning. Really, you should
organize."
Chip Peterson - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/
chippeterson
Posted a nice history of an '80s attempt to organize the
Tangletown area
of Mac-Groveland to coordinate trash pick-ups. See this topic
for his
full post (too long to post here).
http://forums.e-democracy.org/topic/200069
Bruce Leier - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/bruceleier
"Like I said when I moved to Mpls last year: sometimes (alleys
plowed and
trash pickup) it seems like I moved to a real city. But then..."
Ken Iosso - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/keniosso
"A surprisingly interesting topic, Andrew, and I can see this
being a
vastly different experience block to block. On my block the plow
guy sends a letter describing his service (plows every time there
is an inch or more) and how many years he's been doing and asks us
to send $25 or something. Most of us do and probably some of us
don't,
but he seems to find it worth his while and delivers the service he
promises. No muss, no fuss."
"I think you should tell your plow-guy that you want to get out
of the
collections business and since he's the one making the money than
he should be the one collecting it. Obviously you want your backup
plan set up in case he refuses."
Ed Davis - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/eddavis
"There are two major benefits to a neighbor collecting."
"1) People feel better paying/trusting a person they know.
It is also less likely to have several plowers collecting
at the same time."
"2) $25 is a high price for a typical block of about 30
houses. $12-$15 will get the needed $300-$350.
"Overall my opinion about Saint Paul system vs Minneapolis is the
Saint Paul system seems better, since the alleys are plowed well
way before Minneapolis gets the job done."
Bob Treumann - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/bobtreumann
"The problem with this is that although the benefit goes to
the group, the cost is borne by an individual. It takes me 4-6
hours each year to do the job of a collector. If I were to
charge even $25 an hour for my time, I would have to add $150 to
the amount I collect, or about $15 per household. If I don't
charge for my time, I save $10, just like everybody else, and I
make about $1.50 an hour."
Ed Davis - http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/eddavis
"For me and others in this discussion (I base this judgment on
their comments.), there is more to life than monetary income
for our time. I see my actions as part of fabric that creates
a community. I like the fact Saint Paul offers this opportunity.
However, I must say that once this relationship is established,
my neighbors recognize, state, and reward (through prompt
payment) the partial value of my time. I often collect at least
$50 more @ $12/house than our bill of $350 or about $10/hour."
"Do not worry. Global warming will make alley plowing a need
of the past. ;-)"