All posts in the topic Stormwater runoff fee (Short link)
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- There are 15 posts — by 8 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by David Brauer at 2007 Aug 08 22:28 UTC
I just got off the phone talking with a representative of the Minneapolis Stormwater runoff utility. This is the agency behind the "Stormwater Fee" you see on your monthly water bill. In my case, $12.21 per month. I like to call it the "rain fee". The fee is based upon measurements of the impervious surface area of your Minneapolis property, measurements made on aerial photograph of your property. I have a problem with my fee because a large portion of the impervious surfaces on my property lie below street level. There's no way for any runoff from that part of my property to reach the stormwater system - no way except a flood of Noahic proportions. My discussion with the representative bore no fruit and I was left feeling as frustrated as before. He says that the ordinance is not "ideal" in a "perfect world". And it does not really matter whether runoff from my impervious surfaces reaches the storm sewers. It's a "more fair" system than the old one, where we paid for storm sewers in proportion to how much city water we used. I found it strange that it didn't matter that my surfaces didn't runoff into the storm sewers... That arguement seems to contradict the city's policy of allowing credits for "improving the quality" or reducing the amount of runnoff and it's in direct conflict with paragraph g. of the ordinance. The words "runoff from their property that enters the system" stand out. How can I improve the quality of runoff that doesn't exist? I've complained about the fee to my city council person Betsy Hodges. I got sympathy and promises to check into it. I wonder how many other people feel like they are being cheated by this fee? http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/stormwater/fee/Stormwater_FAQ.asp Paragraph G of the Stormwater Utility Ordinance: g. Analyze the appropriateness of providing credits against the stormwater charge for owners of property who employ structural or non-structural best management practices or other stormwater management practices on-site that significantly reduce the quantity or improve the quality of stormwater runoff from their property that enters the system and make recommendations to the city council regarding the provision of these credits.
Probably a few feel cheated, but not me, Jim. Where are you from?
Somewhere in Minneapolis? We've got a storm water runoff management
system to build and maintain and the money has to come from
somewhere; it might as well come from a source connected to the
problem. If you're not connected to the problem, i.e., you've an
impervious hole in the ground unconnected to the city storm or
sanitary sewers in any way, then perhaps you deserve some sort of
credit; I'd say the burden of proof is on you, though. Assuming
you've completely plugged up any old sanitary sewer connection, I
guess it is possible that you own some sort of urban watering hole
that fills up with spring snow melt and in the rainy season, but most
property owners would consider that situation a problem in itself. I
think I need more details, Jim, and I hope you post them here. I also
hope to hear about the resolution of your complaints to Public Works
as well.
On Jul 30, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Jim Hartmann wrote:
> I wonder how many other people feel like they are being cheated by
> this fee?
BTW, "Paragraph G," or section 510.40 (1g) to my read, is pretty much
irrelevant to your situation as you've described it in the forum,
although if you've got an impervious surface area on your property
that collects water, you did not put it there to reduce or improve
the quality of what runoff water goes to the storm sewer system.
The aspect of the city storm water utility program that relates to the credit
program is for folks who are interested in making alterations to their
properties to route storm water from impervious to permeable surfaces or
otherwise contain runoff on-site.
So if you construct a rain garden and route your gutters towards it, that
qualifies for a credit. If you replace impervious concrete or asphalt with
permeable concrete or asphalt or pavers, that qualifies for a credit.
I'm not sure how a property being below street level would qualify. If the
surface is impervious, what's happening to that storm water? Unless it's just
continuing to collect on-site, it's got to go somewhere...
Also, as Bill correctly notes, it used to be that the storm water management
costs resulting from folks owning parking lots or warehouses or something of
that nature with a large impervious surface area were getting paid for by
residents and businesses through their sewer fees. There's certainly been some
kinks that have needed to be ironed out since the program was introduced, but
the program as it stands now is definitely more "fair" than it was previously.
Mark Snyder
Windom Park
Hi Folks,
I live in Linden Hills. Thanks for your replies.
Water that runs off my driveway simply soaks into the ground at the edges, my
lawn, my garden, or as far as it can get which is never the street or sanitary
sewer.
It's true some commercial buildings (still) route storm water from their roofs
into the sanitary sewer, that's a very bad thing. Rainwater going into
sanitary sewers flushes raw sewage to go into the river - look for the tunnel
on the south side of the Mississippi just below St. Anthony Falls - but hold
your nose! We're not talking about that here. I have no sump pump either.
This fee is for runoff - rain water that lands on your property and goes down
the street storm drain.
What I'm saying is that the rain that falls on the majority of my property
never reaches the street or stormwater runoff services provided by the city.
My driveway connects to a non-city easement. The area is well below street
level. There is no storm drain, so if it rains heavily the area floods until
it's able to soak into the ground.
I think the burden of proof should lie with the city. Someone should not be
able to start billing you for a service you don't use. Unless of course it's
by way of a tax, which they are adamant that this fee is not. I have a cable
for cable tv connected to my house. I would be upset however if Comcast
started billing me for TV, because I don't have it.
Regards,
Jim of Linden Hills
Every resident uses the stormwater management utility.
The fee is for stormwater management across the whole
city--including all public property, buildings, etc.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of the
fee could be attributed to individual lots vs. common
property and infrastructure.
IMHO the implementation of the policy has succeeded in
several ways:
1) makes people very aware of WATER--the related
benefits, expenses, environmental impact, etc.
2) furthered the concept of tying individual finance
to environmental impact
3) encouraged individuals to make new, small
investments in their city that improves the overall
stormwater management capability of the city
4) implemented a new utility while preventing any
radical, unexpected changes in expense for any given
homeowner and as a basically "zero sum" game for the
city (that's a complex undertaking)
I find almost silly delight in checking my rain barrel
for water. It stunned me how quickly it fills up. I
hooked up a soaker hose to it which drains the water
to some surrounding plants on non-rain days when the
water will fully saturate. Unfortunately, once the
barrel drains down to about 2/3 full there is no
longer enough pressure to make it through the soaker
though it is slightly elevated. Any suggestions on
improving my pressure or novel ways in which folks are
using rain barrels?
Jason Stone
Diamond Lake
Isn't this a municipal service sort of like roads and mass transit
and public education and municipal libraries? Even if you don't
directly use the service, you do benefit from it.
Assuming you like clean lakes, rivers and streams. Yes, it is a service.
Annie Young
Citywide Park Commissioner
@Emilie - this fee is supposedly in direct proportion to the amount of runoff
from your property.
@Jason - I agree the fee has raised awareness.
@Mark - I could have a rain barrel or rain garden, but it would not improve the
runoff from the rear of my lot. I can't improve on zero.
@Everyone - What is your monthly fee? Mine is $12.21 per month. My lot is
standard city lot size (about 40 x 120).
There are more quality of life and federal mandates impacting the stormwater fee according to a document here. It's note "just" clean rivers and lakes at all. We have had pop-off manhole covers and grating geysers in SE Como,. While they sound exciting, they are absolutely not good neighbors. http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/PLANNING/soc03/2003SOCPropSvcs.pdf Which is really pretty interesting!
Is there anyone who is familiar enough with the storm water utility program who can say whether pervious asphalt (see link for an example) qualifies for the fee credit? http://www.andersonbrothers.com/environmental_products/porous-asphalt.pdf If so, is it a quality credit or a quantity credit? I'm researching options for improving or replacing the deteriorating asphalt parking lot at a property I manage near Dinkytown and I'd like to know how a possible fee credit might factor into the project payback. Replies on- or off-list are welcomed. Mark Snyder Windom Park
In creating a system to fairly pay for a service, there are a number of things to consider--primarily: * Is it as fair as possible * Is it efficient to administer The second point is very important. You don't want to create a system that significantly increases the cost of the service because the fee system costs so much to administer. In the case of the storm water fee, the city seems to have struck a reasonable balance between the two. The other thing to consider (that has been mentioned here) is that fairness includes all people who benefit from the service--if the service helps reduce the chance of your house flooding, you benefit. sheldon ..................... Sheldon Mains Trustee, Minneapolis Public Library Board Library Board member of the Board of Estimate and Taxation Library Board member of Planning Commission 612/618-7149 <email obscured> http://www.SheldonMains.com/ Blog: http://RandomStuffFromSheldon.blogspot.com/ Seward Neighborhood
So, what do you all pay - what is your fair share? I'm very curious...
I did come up with one idea of how I could reduce my runoff. I could install a
pump that sucks water off the street and discharges it in my backyard! What do
you think?
If you design and install a rain garden in your backyard for the pump to discharge to, you might very well have something there, though you would want to get the opinion of city staff if you are intend to apply for the storm water fee credit. Make sure you follow the guidance for rain garden design provided in: http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/cso/docs/raingarden-faqs.pdf More guidance can be found in this great article that was written by Forum member Dave Stack: http://www.thegreenguide.org/article/gardening/rain Mark Snyder Windom Park
It's like running the meter backwards if you generate your own power. Great
concept! (Though your garden will have to endure the street gunk that a
raingutter-runoff system doesn't.)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Hartmann [mailto:butzodaddy@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 4:27 PM
> To: Minneapolis Issues Forum
> Subject: Re: [Mpls] Stormwater runoff fee
>
> I did come up with one idea of how I could reduce my runoff. I could install
a
> pump that sucks water off the street and discharges it in my backyard! What
do