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There are 17 posts — by 14 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Paul Nelson at Jul 13 21:19 UTC

From: Charlie Swope Date: Jul 09 03:06 UTC Short link

One way to reduce the costs of busing kids to school would be to encourage more
kids to walk or bike to school. Some districts have organized groups of kids to
walk to school together as a way to make it safe and enjoyable.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-SPE-BackToSchool-Bikes.html

Doing this would not only save the SPPS money but would also foster healthy
behavior. So, tell me why this couldn't work in St. Paul. Or tell me that the
district is, in fact, doing this already.

From: Haudy Kazemi Date: Jul 09 05:18 UTC Short link

Some government offices are going to 4 * 10 hour work days.  Some
colleges are offering intensive 1-day-a-week class schedules with
classes all back to back.  Weren't school and work hours changed around
in the 70s for similar reasons as today?

Some parents are still likely to say "it's not safe!", but as you say,
that itself is manageable by sending groups of kids.

The kids themselves who are used to busing are likely to complain the
most.  (It's rainy, it's snowy!)

Also, kids who are bused around the district rather than to the nearest
school are also going to have reason to complain.

M Charles Swope wrote:
> One way to reduce the costs of busing kids to school would be to encourage
more kids to walk or bike to school. Some districts have organized groups of
kids to walk to school together as a way to make it safe and enjoyable.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-SPE-BackToSchool-Bikes.html
>
> Doing this would not only save the SPPS money but would also foster healthy
behavior. So, tell me why this couldn't work in St. Paul. Or tell me that the
district is, in fact, doing this already.
>
>
>
>
> Charles Swope
> Ramsey Hill, Ward 2, St. Paul
> Info about Charlie Swope: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charlesswope
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2Qcs1gsNmh97bnN6AIcNzl

From: Tom Conlon Date: Jul 09 06:01 UTC Short link

Charlie's points are good ones. This would clearly be an additional benefit of
neighborhood-based schools. It would be even harder to do with citywide busing
to every school, which is tremendously expensive and further breaks down
neighborhood connections.

I am not aware of any formal effort our schools are doing, but it would be a
good incentive for a variety of reasons: improved health and exercise, energy
reduction/conservation and transportation costs. It's a challenge our schools
should definitely look at.

Tom Conlon
Macalester-Groveland

From: Rob Fulton Date: Jul 09 08:40 UTC Short link

Saint Mark's has had success with "walking school buses".  Children wait on
corners until the a group further away approaches and then the larger group
moves on.  I believe Highland Catholic has a similar program.

In some places, parents are recruited to be the "bus drivers".  This also gives
the adults some exercise.

The current limits for walkers in SPPS is one mile or if a dangerous crossing
(no traffic signal and need to cross a busy street) is involved in a route less
than one mile.  Several years ago an effort was made to expand to 1 1/2 miles
but met great opposition.  An expanded route may make some sense for older
middle school and high school children.

Another issue is the amount of time that young children get to exercise at
school.  Recesses are shorter, phys ed reduced as the focus is on improving
math and reading.  The balance between doing well on statewide tests and not
getting enough exercise is difficult to manage.

Rob Fulton
Highland Park

-----Original Message-----
From: Haudy Kazemi [mailto:kaze0010@umn.edu]
Sent: Wed 7/9/2008 12:04 AM
To: M Charles Swope
Cc: 'St. Paul Issues Forum'
Subject: Re: [SPIF] Fuel Costs and Schools

Some government offices are going to 4 * 10 hour work days.  Some
colleges are offering intensive 1-day-a-week class schedules with
classes all back to back.  Weren't school and work hours changed around
in the 70s for similar reasons as today?

Some parents are still likely to say "it's not safe!", but as you say,
that itself is manageable by sending groups of kids.

The kids themselves who are used to busing are likely to complain the
most.  (It's rainy, it's snowy!)

Also, kids who are bused around the district rather than to the nearest
school are also going to have reason to complain.


M Charles Swope wrote:
> One way to reduce the costs of busing kids to school would be to encourage
more kids to walk or bike to school. Some districts have organized groups of
kids to walk to school together as a way to make it safe and enjoyable.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-SPE-BackToSchool-Bikes.html
>
> Doing this would not only save the SPPS money but would also foster healthy
behavior. So, tell me why this couldn't work in St. Paul. Or tell me that the
district is, in fact, doing this already.
>
>
>
>
> Charles Swope
> Ramsey Hill, Ward 2, St. Paul
> Info about Charlie Swope: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charlesswope
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2Qcs1gsNmh97bnN6AIcNzl
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Haudy Kazemi
State Fair Area
Info about Haudy Kazemi: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/haudykazemi

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From: Neala Schleuning Date: Jul 09 13:18 UTC Short link

I don't know how high school students get to school these days, or what the
current use by students of the bus system is, but it might save $ to give
them all MetroTransit passes and sell the buses.  Might be an incentive to
expand the bus routes.

From: Chuck Repke Date: Jul 09 13:39 UTC Short link

I have been saying that about the high schools for the longest time.   Go sit
in front of a high school and look at how empty the busses are and how  full
the students cars are!  My kid drove himself and four of his friends  to
school every day the last two years of school.

JMONTOMEPPOF

Chuck Repke


In a message dated 7/9/2008 8:21:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
<email obscured> writes:

I don't  know how high school students get to school these days, or what the
current  use by students of the bus system is, but it might save $ to give
them all  MetroTransit passes and sell the buses.  Might be an incentive  to
expand the bus routes.

From: Chris Rybisky Date: Jul 09 14:21 UTC Short link

I'm all for this. We live about 12 blocks from school and our plan is to walk
or bike to school - at least until winter sets in. For the last several years,
we dealt with a 35 mile commute to school one way every day...12 blocks seems
like nothing comparatively speaking.

When I was in High School, I lived a half a block from Groveland and I walked
to Highland Senior everyday (rain or shine). My mom gave me bus money for the
city bus, but I figured if I walked I could use that money for other things.

From: John Sherman Date: Jul 09 14:28 UTC Short link

Actually SPPS still has the remnants of sending group of
kids to school.  It is found in the school patrol who
guard the crossings.  In the old days at Saint Andrew's
elementary we convoyed kids in ranks two by two to and
from school.  I was an honored school patrol member who in
1962  shepherded  kids in the convoy called Chatsworth 2
from Saint Andrews up Chatsworth St until Front Street.

John Sherman
on the marches of Como and the North End

--





On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:04:52 -0500
  Haudy Kazemi <kaze0010@umn.edu> wrote:
> Some government offices are going to 4 * 10 hour work
>days.  Some
> colleges are offering intensive 1-day-a-week class
>schedules with
> classes all back to back.  Weren't school and work hours
>changed around
> in the 70s for similar reasons as today?
>
> Some parents are still likely to say "it's not safe!",
>but as you say,
> that itself is manageable by sending groups of kids.
>
> The kids themselves who are used to busing are likely to
>complain the
> most.  (It's rainy, it's snowy!)
>
> Also, kids who are bused around the district rather than
>to the nearest
> school are also going to have reason to complain.
>
>
> M Charles Swope wrote:
>> One way to reduce the costs of busing kids to school
>>would be to encourage more kids to walk or bike to
>>school. Some districts have organized groups of kids to
>>walk to school together as a way to make it safe and
>>enjoyable.
>>http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-SPE-BackToSchool-Bikes.html
>>
>> Doing this would not only save the SPPS money but would
>>also foster healthy behavior. So, tell me why this
>>couldn't work in St. Paul. Or tell me that the district
>>is, in fact, doing this already.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Charles Swope
>> Ramsey Hill, Ward 2, St. Paul
>> Info about Charlie Swope:
>>http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charlesswope
>>
>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>>http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2Qcs1gsNmh97bnN6AIcNzl
>> --------------------------------------->>   To post, send your message to:
>>stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org
>>   To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or
>>"digest on,"
>>   in subject line and send to:
>>stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org
>>
>>   More info about St. Paul Issues Forum:
>>   http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues
>>
>>   E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
>> --------------------------------------->> Technical assistance thanks to our
friends at
>>http://OnlineGroups.Net
>>
>>  Citizens Guide to St. Paul
>> http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
>>
>> Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and
>>items for investigation to: <email obscured>
>>
>>
>
>
> Haudy Kazemi
> State Fair Area
> Info about Haudy Kazemi:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/haudykazemi
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6VkUpjVzelW6Xlp4ywlUOH
> --------------------------------------->  To post, send your message to:
>stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org
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>"digest on,"
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friends at
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From: Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly) Date: Jul 09 18:38 UTC Short link

For saving fuel costs and schools solutions:

City bus solution does not work because

1) I think minors would be targets on the buses. I don't even like riding the
bus with the profanity overhead, much less the proposals a young girl would
have to put up with.

2) There are not every routes with enough reliability with every times to
depend on. Met council spends money on building dikes around private airports
not improving bus service.

3) As a parent, I want to see my child going on a safe bus to school, not on a
city bus where they could go spend the day at the mall

I don't think our neighborhoods are walkable safe. Many parents wait at the bus
stop with children just to be sure. The walking bus solution works only if
everyone is precise about time, it is not reliable.

In any case, we are better off in the city than country schools with long
mileage.

Here are some of my ideas:

1) Make the school day long enough so two parents could alternate drop off and
pick up with work hours. Make two bus routes (elementary and high school)
through an area. Everyone else gets picked up by bus and sent out through a hub
and spoke system, for transportation beyond your local school. So local school
drop off, delivery to hub school and back to local school with students from
hub.

2) Allow ONLY 5 days of standardized testing a year, anything beyond that is
"unfunded" and therefore not done until funding shows up. My experience with
test were that they were poorly crafted, redundant and just horrible to
students. I took to keeping my students home during testing, which really made
the principle angry. Want more and better education, then CUT testing. Get rid
of all federal involvement in testing and schools, since we had better schools
when we had local control.

3) All day kindergarten care, so no more midday bus trips or extra arranged
daycare.

4) Have mandatory summer all day reading and math programs based on skill level
when a student is below test level that a student must take, with pre and post
testing. This should include home schoolers as well. The schools should get
into the business of putting together fun summer education programs that are
fully paid for by fees. If parents are not constantly working and scrambling
for after school care, vacation care and summer care elsewhere then parents and
the whole community will do better.

5) Make our schools better by allowing parents and students to choose schools
and choose teachers. If a teacher does not get sufficient sign ups for classes,
they lose teaching status. If a school cannot attract sufficient students, its
management loses their jobs, the teachers are back into the teaching pool, and
someone else reorganizes a new school. I know of one teacher at central that
had a bad reputation that stretched across generations, yet nothing was done.
When all schools and teachers are better, then students will be more likely to
want to go to local schools.

Grace Kelly nicknamed Kelly
Curmudgeon from Merriam Park

From: Neala Schleuning Date: Jul 09 18:58 UTC Short link

A few random responses about buses.  I'll leave off commenting on the state
of our schools and stay on topic.  The buses are safe and most neighborhoods
are safe (I ride the buses and walk the neighborhoods). . . . bus routes can
be changed . . . numbers of buses can be increased at high traffic times . .
. riding buses is not why children skip school. . .

Perhaps we should give this concept as a problem for a college class in
urban studies.  How would they design the bus system to meet the needs of
high school students?

I find it interesting that two comments build on a notion of fear--fear of
our city, or surroundings.  I've spent a lot of time in large cities here
and around the world walking and riding public transportation without
incident--when I was young, middle-aged and now that I'm older.  I don't
fear the public world.  Perhaps there is safety in numbers?  And perhaps our
city would be more liveable if people were walking around in it?

And perhaps there are ways to create safe places in our neighborhoods for
children.  Perhaps there is some fear on the part of children in coming home
to a neighborhood where all the adults are at work.  Longer days in school
might send them home when the adults are also home.

-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly [mailto:saintcurmudgeon@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:38 PM
To: 'St. Paul Issues Forum'
Subject: Re: [SPIF] Fuel Costs and Schools

For saving fuel costs and schools solutions:

City bus solution does not work because

1) I think minors would be targets on the buses. I don't even like riding
the bus with the profanity overhead, much less the proposals a young girl
would have to put up with.

2) There are not every routes with enough reliability with every times to
depend on. Met council spends money on building dikes around private
airports not improving bus service.

3) As a parent, I want to see my child going on a safe bus to school, not on
a city bus where they could go spend the day at the mall

I don't think our neighborhoods are walkable safe. Many parents wait at the
bus stop with children just to be sure. The walking bus solution works only
if everyone is precise about time, it is not reliable.

In any case, we are better off in the city than country schools with long
mileage.

Here are some of my ideas:

1) Make the school day long enough so two parents could alternate drop off
and pick up with work hours. Make two bus routes (elementary and high
school) through an area. Everyone else gets picked up by bus and sent out
through a hub and spoke system, for transportation beyond your local school.
So local school drop off, delivery to hub school and back to local school
with students from hub.

2) Allow ONLY 5 days of standardized testing a year, anything beyond that is
"unfunded" and therefore not done until funding shows up. My experience with
test were that they were poorly crafted, redundant and just horrible to
students. I took to keeping my students home during testing, which really
made the principle angry. Want more and better education, then CUT testing.
Get rid of all federal involvement in testing and schools, since we had
better schools when we had local control.

3) All day kindergarten care, so no more midday bus trips or extra arranged
daycare.

4) Have mandatory summer all day reading and math programs based on skill
level when a student is below test level that a student must take, with pre
and post testing. This should include home schoolers as well. The schools
should get into the business of putting together fun summer education
programs that are fully paid for by fees. If parents are not constantly
working and scrambling for after school care, vacation care and summer care
elsewhere then parents and the whole community will do better.

5) Make our schools better by allowing parents and students to choose
schools and choose teachers. If a teacher does not get sufficient sign ups
for classes, they lose teaching status. If a school cannot attract
sufficient students, its management loses their jobs, the teachers are back
into the teaching pool, and someone else reorganizes a new school. I know of
one teacher at central that had a bad reputation that stretched across
generations, yet nothing was done. When all schools and teachers are better,
then students will be more likely to want to go to local schools.

Grace Kelly nicknamed Kelly
Curmudgeon from Merriam Park

Grace (nicknamed Kelly) Kelly
Merriam Park, St Paul
Info about Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly):
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/gracekelly

This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2lkSvh8qSReFBjtobzHCVv
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 Citizens Guide to St. Paul
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Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and items for
investigation to: <email obscured>

From: Joe Nathan Date: Jul 09 21:15 UTC Short link

For what it is worth, there are literally  thousands of metro area high
school students who currently use MTC buses to get to their public
(charter) high schools. Among the schools using MTC bus cards are
students at

Minnesota Transitions (Mpls)
St. Paul Conservatory of Performing Arts (St. Paul)
City Academy (St. Paul)
Avalon Charter (St Paul)

I know that there are a number of other local charters that give
students bus cards - have not done intensive research on this.

Joe Nathan

Neala Schleuning wrote:
> A few random responses about buses.  I'll leave off commenting on the state
> of our schools and stay on topic.  The buses are safe and most neighborhoods
> are safe (I ride the buses and walk the neighborhoods). . . . bus routes can
> be changed . . . numbers of buses can be increased at high traffic times . .
> . riding buses is not why children skip school. . .
>
> Perhaps we should give this concept as a problem for a college class in
> urban studies.  How would they design the bus system to meet the needs of
> high school students?
>
> I find it interesting that two comments build on a notion of fear--fear of
> our city, or surroundings.  I've spent a lot of time in large cities here
> and around the world walking and riding public transportation without
> incident--when I was young, middle-aged and now that I'm older.  I don't
> fear the public world.  Perhaps there is safety in numbers?  And perhaps our
> city would be more liveable if people were walking around in it?
>
> And perhaps there are ways to create safe places in our neighborhoods for
> children.  Perhaps there is some fear on the part of children in coming home
> to a neighborhood where all the adults are at work.  Longer days in school
> might send them home when the adults are also home.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kelly [mailto:saintcurmudgeon@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:38 PM
> To: 'St. Paul Issues Forum'
> Subject: Re: [SPIF] Fuel Costs and Schools
>
> For saving fuel costs and schools solutions:
>
> City bus solution does not work because
>
> 1) I think minors would be targets on the buses. I don't even like riding
> the bus with the profanity overhead, much less the proposals a young girl
> would have to put up with.
>
> 2) There are not every routes with enough reliability with every times to
> depend on. Met council spends money on building dikes around private
> airports not improving bus service.
>
> 3) As a parent, I want to see my child going on a safe bus to school, not on
> a city bus where they could go spend the day at the mall
>
> I don't think our neighborhoods are walkable safe. Many parents wait at the
> bus stop with children just to be sure. The walking bus solution works only
> if everyone is precise about time, it is not reliable.
>
> In any case, we are better off in the city than country schools with long
> mileage.
>
> Here are some of my ideas:
>
> 1) Make the school day long enough so two parents could alternate drop off
> and pick up with work hours. Make two bus routes (elementary and high
> school) through an area. Everyone else gets picked up by bus and sent out
> through a hub and spoke system, for transportation beyond your local school.
> So local school drop off, delivery to hub school and back to local school
> with students from hub.
>
> 2) Allow ONLY 5 days of standardized testing a year, anything beyond that is
> "unfunded" and therefore not done until funding shows up. My experience with
> test were that they were poorly crafted, redundant and just horrible to
> students. I took to keeping my students home during testing, which really
> made the principle angry. Want more and better education, then CUT testing.
> Get rid of all federal involvement in testing and schools, since we had
> better schools when we had local control.
>
> 3) All day kindergarten care, so no more midday bus trips or extra arranged
> daycare.
>
> 4) Have mandatory summer all day reading and math programs based on skill
> level when a student is below test level that a student must take, with pre
> and post testing. This should include home schoolers as well. The schools
> should get into the business of putting together fun summer education
> programs that are fully paid for by fees. If parents are not constantly
> working and scrambling for after school care, vacation care and summer care
> elsewhere then parents and the whole community will do better.
>
> 5) Make our schools better by allowing parents and students to choose
> schools and choose teachers. If a teacher does not get sufficient sign ups
> for classes, they lose teaching status. If a school cannot attract
> sufficient students, its management loses their jobs, the teachers are back
> into the teaching pool, and someone else reorganizes a new school. I know of
> one teacher at central that had a bad reputation that stretched across
> generations, yet nothing was done. When all schools and teachers are better,
> then students will be more likely to want to go to local schools.
>
> Grace Kelly nicknamed Kelly
> Curmudgeon from Merriam Park
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Grace (nicknamed Kelly) Kelly
> Merriam Park, St Paul
> Info about Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly):
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/gracekelly
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2lkSvh8qSReFBjtobzHCVv
> -----------------------------------------
>   To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
>   To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
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>
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>
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> -----------------------------------------
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>
>  Citizens Guide to St. Paul
> http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
>
> Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and items for
> investigation to: <email obscured>
>
>
>
> Neala Schleuning
> West Side, Saint Paul
> Info about Neala Schleuning: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/nealaschleuning
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4e45BJ2OlWsSI4t0EuI7L5
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> -----------------------------------------
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>
>  Citizens Guide to St. Paul
> http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
>
> Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and items for investigation
to: <email obscured>
>

From: James Walsh Date: Jul 09 22:13 UTC Short link

Not to mention the ALCs... Area Learning Centers..... give their students bus
cards.

>>> Joe Nathan <jnathan@umn.edu> 07/09/2008 3:59:26 PM >>>
For what it is worth, there are literally  thousands of metro area high
school students who currently use MTC buses to get to their public
(charter) high schools. Among the schools using MTC bus cards are
students at

Minnesota Transitions (Mpls)
St. Paul Conservatory of Performing Arts (St. Paul)
City Academy (St. Paul)
Avalon Charter (St Paul)

I know that there are a number of other local charters that give
students bus cards - have not done intensive research on this.

Joe Nathan

Neala Schleuning wrote:
> A few random responses about buses.  I'll leave off commenting on the state
> of our schools and stay on topic.  The buses are safe and most neighborhoods
> are safe (I ride the buses and walk the neighborhoods). . . . bus routes can
> be changed . . . numbers of buses can be increased at high traffic times . .
> . riding buses is not why children skip school. . .
>
> Perhaps we should give this concept as a problem for a college class in
> urban studies.  How would they design the bus system to meet the needs of
> high school students?
>
> I find it interesting that two comments build on a notion of fear--fear of
> our city, or surroundings.  I've spent a lot of time in large cities here
> and around the world walking and riding public transportation without
> incident--when I was young, middle-aged and now that I'm older.  I don't
> fear the public world.  Perhaps there is safety in numbers?  And perhaps our
> city would be more liveable if people were walking around in it?
>
> And perhaps there are ways to create safe places in our neighborhoods for
> children.  Perhaps there is some fear on the part of children in coming home
> to a neighborhood where all the adults are at work.  Longer days in school
> might send them home when the adults are also home.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kelly [mailto:saintcurmudgeon@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:38 PM
> To: 'St. Paul Issues Forum'
> Subject: Re: [SPIF] Fuel Costs and Schools
>
> For saving fuel costs and schools solutions:
>
> City bus solution does not work because
>
> 1) I think minors would be targets on the buses. I don't even like riding
> the bus with the profanity overhead, much less the proposals a young girl
> would have to put up with.
>
> 2) There are not every routes with enough reliability with every times to
> depend on. Met council spends money on building dikes around private
> airports not improving bus service.
>
> 3) As a parent, I want to see my child going on a safe bus to school, not on
> a city bus where they could go spend the day at the mall
>
> I don't think our neighborhoods are walkable safe. Many parents wait at the
> bus stop with children just to be sure. The walking bus solution works only
> if everyone is precise about time, it is not reliable.
>
> In any case, we are better off in the city than country schools with long
> mileage.
>
> Here are some of my ideas:
>
> 1) Make the school day long enough so two parents could alternate drop off
> and pick up with work hours. Make two bus routes (elementary and high
> school) through an area. Everyone else gets picked up by bus and sent out
> through a hub and spoke system, for transportation beyond your local school.
> So local school drop off, delivery to hub school and back to local school
> with students from hub.
>
> 2) Allow ONLY 5 days of standardized testing a year, anything beyond that is
> "unfunded" and therefore not done until funding shows up. My experience with
> test were that they were poorly crafted, redundant and just horrible to
> students. I took to keeping my students home during testing, which really
> made the principle angry. Want more and better education, then CUT testing.
> Get rid of all federal involvement in testing and schools, since we had
> better schools when we had local control.
>
> 3) All day kindergarten care, so no more midday bus trips or extra arranged
> daycare.
>
> 4) Have mandatory summer all day reading and math programs based on skill
> level when a student is below test level that a student must take, with pre
> and post testing. This should include home schoolers as well. The schools
> should get into the business of putting together fun summer education
> programs that are fully paid for by fees. If parents are not constantly
> working and scrambling for after school care, vacation care and summer care
> elsewhere then parents and the whole community will do better.
>
> 5) Make our schools better by allowing parents and students to choose
> schools and choose teachers. If a teacher does not get sufficient sign ups
> for classes, they lose teaching status. If a school cannot attract
> sufficient students, its management loses their jobs, the teachers are back
> into the teaching pool, and someone else reorganizes a new school. I know of
> one teacher at central that had a bad reputation that stretched across
> generations, yet nothing was done. When all schools and teachers are better,
> then students will be more likely to want to go to local schools.
>
> Grace Kelly nicknamed Kelly
> Curmudgeon from Merriam Park
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Grace (nicknamed Kelly) Kelly
> Merriam Park, St Paul
> Info about Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly):
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/gracekelly
>
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>
> Neala Schleuning
> West Side, Saint Paul
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Highland Park, St Paul
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From: Chris Rybisky Date: Jul 09 22:30 UTC Short link

Fear is the key here. We live in a world where we are STRONGLY
encouraged to fear.

I just read a column online a few months ago about a woman in New
York. She has a daughter who wanted to ride the subway alone (
http://www.nysun.com/editorials/why-i-let-my-9-year-old-ride-subway-alone
).

We need more people willing to live without fear (it is important to
be aware of your surroundings, but fear is something else entirely).

We once had a president that encouraged us to fear the Fear.  We
haven't had a national sentiment like that in many decades. On the
local level, I like to see my representatives walking or riding the
bus. It doesn't happen often, but I have seen Melvin Carter and Dave
Thune hoofing it.


Chris Rybisky
Cathedral Hill

From: Anne Carroll Date: Jul 11 04:59 UTC Short link

Ah...so much to talk about.

Below are some consolidated responses, with apologies in advance for the
length of this post; I'm happy to follow up with people off line if anyone
is still interested at this point... ;-).

-- Encouraging exercise, healthy eating, etc.: Of course, through phy ed,
health classes, a leading-edge school bkfst and lunch program, and so on. Is
it enough? Of course not. Federal and state funding for education has
increasingly focused on the academic basics, leaving insufficient money and
time in students' schedules for anything else. We have tens of thousands of
students who don't ride St Paul school buses, however, and while we have not
to my knowledge studied the actual correlation between obesity and busing, I
would argue that while it may appeal at a common sense level, that doesn't
make it a fact.

-- Would I like to see more kids walk to schools? Of course. But I'm not the
only person who is absolutely not willing to stand up in front of a family
in poverty with a 36" kindergartener who weighs 36# sopping wet and tell the
parents that the only way we will allow their child to come to SPPS is if
she walks 5280 feet on a blustery -5 degree day in January, regardless of
whether she has boots, a hat, mittens, or a warm jacket. Sorry, but I'm just
not going there. We could wish the world wasn't like that, but I deal in the
reality of where are students are right now -- which is a 70%+ poverty rate
districtwide.

-- Busing in SPPS began as part of "voluntary" desegregation (meaning it was
put into place just in time to prevent legal action) over 25 years ago. It
had a lots of positive impacts in that regard, but was and is not sufficient
(more on that in another post). Busing has now morphed into the primary
means of delivering citywide school choice, allowing all secondary students
and over half of our elementary students to select unique programs tailored
to their interests or needs. Our choice system is overwhelmingly supported
by families and students in St. Paul, and we are frequently petitioned to
offer more choice for a variety of legitimate reasons.

-- Yes, we have investigated the possibility of using MTC buses for all our
high school students, and in fact do provide bus cards for MTC buses for our
high school alternative programs. The latter works because those are located
on heavily traveled bus lines and/or close to the bulk of the students they
serve. At this time is it impossible -- literally -- for MTC to meet the
needs of our regular HS students for several reasons: they don't have enough
buses running at the times we need them to serve anything close to that many
students; their buses don't go within a mile of where many of our students
live; the routes and frequency can't get our students to their schools in
anything approaching a reasonable length of time or number of transfers. And
no, MTC is neither willing nor able to fund the increased number of buses,
route changes, or frequency to meet our needs, and has said so formally
within the last couple of years.

-- Some posters noted the appeal and wonderful memories of neighborhood
schools. Lovely and agreed. So to move back to neighborhood schools all you
have to do is relocate over half the families in the district or spend
hundreds of millions building new schools. Sorry, my friends, but where the
majority of SPPS kids live is not where the majority of schools are. The
wonderful thing about our citywide choice system is that we've been able to
resolve this mismatch of housing patterns and schools over the last several
decades by busing kids to where the schools are rather than closing dozens
of schools or spending millions we haven't ever had.

-- And yes, some families do choose to bus their kids to school because they
are afraid about their kids walking to school. While statistics tell us kids
really are very safe throughout the city (and exceptionally safe on school
buses ;-), this isn't Mayberry and I can't stand up in front of well-meaning
and caring parents and guarantee that their child will be safe walking to
and from school. It's also simply not an option for many parents to walk
with their kids -- they have other children to care for, work
responsibilities, or other challenges. I personally do not fear for these
kids, but I can respect those who do as their kids go to and from school in
the dark and cold for several months of the year.

-- Finally, SPPS has one of the top 1 or 2 most efficient school busing
systems in the country as measured by cost/mile/student. That's because we
combine sophisticated computer routing with hand-tweaking based on decades
of experience, and each bus runs 3-5 routes morning and evening. For
purposes of comparison, the average cost of the first run used to be about
$200, and by run 3 it was only $50; economies of scale, of course, and thus
our secondary school runs are much less expensive. BTW, SPPS owns just a few
specialized buses for special needs kids; we take bids from 4-5 companies to
meet all our regular busing needs, so there aren't any buses to sell and
save tons of money.

So yes, busing is expensive, but not remotely the cost of any of the other
feasible alternatives -- and the benefits we get from our citywide choice
system are unparalleled.

-- Anne Carroll, St. Paul Bd of Ed

__________________________________________________
Anne R. Carroll
Carroll, Franck & Associates
Strategic planning, public involvement, and communications
1357 Highland Parkway
St. Paul, MN 55116 USA
Phone: 651-690-9162
Email: <email obscured>
Skype: annepublicpartic
(School Board: 651-690-9156 or www.annecarroll.org)


"The arc of history is long but it bends toward justice." -- Martin Luther
King, Jr., adapted from Rev. Theodore Parker, 1859

"All too often, men and women in public life worry too much about the next
election. A true states[wo]man, however, worries about the next generation
and children yet unborn." -- Rep. Elijah E. Cummings, 2003

From: Charlie Swope Date: Jul 11 13:55 UTC Short link

Of course, no one wants to send small, coatless, bootless children on a mile or
more hike to school by themselves in -5 degree weather. But not every school
day in Minnesota is like that. The article that began this thread talked about
a more organized walking program; one where an adult leader escorted groups of
children on walks to school.

Assuming that the only alternative to the present system is to tell small
children without proper clothing to walk miles to school alone in freezing
weather simply avoids the issue of whether there exists some opportunity to
reduce (not eliminate) the amount of busing in the district rather than
addressing it.

From: Mike Fratto Date: Jul 11 16:43 UTC Short link

I have been away and deleted most of my e-mail when I returned. So I didn't get
the earlier posts on this subject.

I am not sure why we don't have some organized walking routes for students.
When I grew up that is what we had. We had to wait in line until everyone was
out of school. Then we headed off in the general direction of home. Once we got
to our corner we left the line and were on our own.

What is interesting is the line proceeded along the same route the bus now
takes and the kids get off on the same corner where they have to walk the same
distance to their home and my classmates did who lived in those homes back in
the '50s.

Mike Fratto
Payne Phalen


Please help those who don't get enough to eat.
http://oyh.org
http://hungersolutions.org

The future depends more on
what we do between now and then
Than what we did in the past.

From: Paul Nelson Date: Jul 13 21:19 UTC Short link

Lots to think about. As far as fuel is concerned, that is a commodity. I think
other issues for alternatives are equally or more important.

I want to recognize one of our own citizens in  Saint Paul, Ms Alice Tibbetts
who pioneered "Safe Routes to School" at Saint Marks in 2002 or 2003? I do not
have the article for reference, so just my recall. Alice organized a pilot
program with St Marks with administration and parents, for parents to walk with
their children rather than drive. This was based in part upon good
intersections, sidewalks, etc. The result was traffic congestion decreased by
over 60% during arrival and school dismissal periods. And of course the other
benefits of exercise, etc that have already been mentioned.

More recently Alice Tibbetts has been working for the city of Minneapolis for
bike/walk safe routes to schools.

I think we can do some of these things in Saint Paul, better walking and
bicycling possibilities, coupled with safety. and I think we can have some
community school options too without spending millions.

For your interest and enjoyment, take a look at the following.

http://www.tcstreetsforpeople.org/node/109

Al The Best
Paul Nelson
Ward One - D7
Hyde Park

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