All posts in the topic The Friar, Marston Road (Short link)
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- There are 34 posts — by 12 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Chris Brewer at Jan 07 18:25 UTC
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| Gill Poole | Tesco Fundamental inaccuracy.doc | Jan 03 13:54 UTC |
So, knowing there a some people who are very knowledgeable about pubs on this
forum, what is happening to The Friar? The last time I went past the for sale
sign had gone. Has this pub got a future?
Not as a pub I don't think. When it closed it was bought by Clint -
the guy that has Cafe Coco's, Kazbar and Lemon Tree etc. Since his
plans for the Lemon Tree have been dealt a bit of a blow (ie to
develop it for flats and use the money to fund other pub type
ventures - he has a new one coming up where the Moonlight Tandoori
was on Cowley Rd) he's now just holding onto the Friar and thinking
about what to put in for planning. But it's unlikely to be a pub
again, and I do reckon that's fine - I suspect neighbours will be
pleased that it's not going to return to anything like its former,
not always terribly sociable (spot the diplomacy here!) self.
Last I heard was that his plans may include a row of three shops with
some flats above. But so far as I am aware he has not submitted
anything yet so don't anybody go getting up some kind of anti-this-or-
that campaign yet!
He *was* trying to sell it as I understand it, and the sign has come
down because he has taken it off the market.
Jock Coats – many thanks for a very helpful post.
I will refrain from launching a ‘Save The Friar’ campaign for now (much as I
seem to be drawn to lost causes), but I will say this. A few weeks back we
stopped to pick up a few things at the Co-Op on Old Marston Road. There were
loads of people buying drink, and also from the Cost Cutter nearby. Maybe many
were going on to parties, but I suspect a lot of people were just going home,
to have a drink watching television. All this going on with The Friar dark and
shuttered just over the road.
I think that is very sad. Oxford has a fast growing population, from all over
the world. Pubs are the places to meet and mix and get to know each other –
what’s the point of some bloke from Poznan going off home with his bottle of
Zywiec? So I think it especially important suburban pubs are saved – they are
close to where people live, and are vital as meeting places for societies,
places to play games – and just to drink and chat.
The Waterman’s in Osney in the 1980s run by the brilliant if eccentric landlord
Alan Wilmer was an example of how a great pub can be the centre of a community.
Good and imaginative management, that’s all a lot of these pubs need. But for
some pub owners, it easier to let the pub run down and then flog it off for
housing.
The Oxford Mail has revealed what is happening at the Friar in Marston Road: http://archive.oxfordmail.net/2008/1/18/217174.html It sounds as though Clinton Pugh, the restaurateur who bought The Friar last May, is going to redevelop the site in an interesting way. He is quoted as saying: "I want to build some shops that will be of benefit to the local community, with a greengrocer's, a delicatessen and a cafe/wine bar. I want the cafe to be a place where people living in the area can come and meet with friends and relax, and it will offer them something that they don't already have.... The area is already well served with pubs and I don't think it needs another one." Pugh also makes interesting comments in the article about the pub situation in Oxford.
Now the details of what Clinton Pugh is proposing are becoming clearer - Demolition of existing public house. Erection of replacement building to site frontage to provide 3 commercial units (2x retail, 1x food & drink) on ground floor and 6x1 bed residential flats on 1st and 2nd floors. Erection of further 2 storey building to rear to provide 2x2 bed flats. So we have essentially a new block of flats, two more flats in what was the pub garden, with the small concession of two shops and a food and drink venue. In the Oxford Mail report on 18/1/2008 Mr. Pugh said, ‘The area is already well served with pubs and I don't think it needs another one.’ This is a curious thing to say. It is not a question of ‘another one’. For many years the large area of New Marston and Northway has been served by four pubs. To take a away one at a time of growing population in the area risks creating a large expanse of lifeless suburb. I would also question whether The Friar really is redundant. Just because the previous owner ran down the pub with an eye to selling it on does not mean that it could not be very successful again. It was reported last spring ago that the Vale Brewery Company – http://www.valebrewery.co.uk/ were negotiating to buy The Friar. What a shame this did not happen. I have no doubt however, that with imaginative ownership, The Friar could again be a vibrant community pub. Mr. Pugh has spoken of a having a greengrocers and delicatessen on the site. Again, another curious thing to say. There are not many places in New Marston and Northway that already have two places selling fresh fruit and vegetable within fifty yards, but The Friar is one, with both Costcutter and the Co-op nearby. In addition Seasons delicatassen is only a stone’s throw away on Cherwell Drive. The truth is the retail units could end up as anything, it just depends on who, if anyone, will pay the rent.
Well, well - Jock Coats was quite right, Clinton Pugh has withdrawn his application. http://uniformpublicaccess.oxford.gov.uk/publicaccess/tdc/dcapplication/application_detailview.aspx?KEYVAL=JW6IYYMF0CW00&module=P3&hidereturn=true So I wonder what happens next?
According to today's Oxford Mail, Tesco's has now bought the Friar with a view to replacing it with a Tesco's Express store: http://www.oxfordmail.net/display.var.2193364.0.residents_fear_new_tesco_store.php
Hmmm - as I said a while back....perhaps better the devil you know...:)
Score one against the planners.
'Score one against the planners'. That depends on whether you accept Clinton
Pugh's account of what happened. There is no comment from the City Council's
planning officers or elected members, so it is not easy to know what their
thinking is. All we know for certain is that Clinton Pugh withdrew the
application before it could be decided.
Already there seems to be plenty of opposition to Tesco - this one will run and
run.
Perhaps. There has clearly been some gamesmanship between Clint and planners these past few months, both in respect of this and the Lemon Tree application. But for years I have known people who feel that the planning system (it's not necessarily a reflection on Oxford's planners alone - it seems deeply embedded) does not really appreciate the needs of smaller, often more locally based, businesses and developers who are often carrying big debt while waiting for discussions and applications to run their course. It was particularly bad a couple of years back where getting an appeal date alone could take months and then they'd only get one a year away. I am not of course saying that one should "nod them through" but, just as an "Englishman's home is his castle", supposedly, the planning system is in fact there to facilitate development - the underlying principle being that somebody ought, within reason, to be able to do what -they want- with what belongs to them*. And every delay means more costs to the owner. Tesco, on the other hand, can afford to ride out such delays and inconveniences. Personally as a three times a week Co-op customer there at least, I'd be sorry to see either of the two general stores in Old Marston Road in financial trouble because of this, but the planning system ought not be used to protect businesses from competition - unless there is an over-riding public consideration - and the Post Office *might* be such. It's an awkward site to be sure. And if competition results, as it almost inevitably does, in cheaper or better quality food being available to local people then that is to their benefit. Who knows, in the worst case scenario, one could perhaps see one of the other supermarkets go, the rent fall a little and some other local entrepreneur doing something vaguely complimentary to Tesco's presence might emerge and actually cause a diversification there - any one of those modernist buildings tarted up could make a great setting for a cafe or some other useful local shop. But, for example, I know people (myself included) find it difficult at present to cross the Marston Road there already (by foot especially but even in a car it's difficult), even before this news, and while the two existing stores still attract business that area is completely parked up with customers of theirs (why should Tesco attract only people on foot when those other two clearly attract people in cars?). But an organisation with the luxury of time and financial muscle has presumably already budgetted for seeing out the planning process come what may. One wonders what else they may be willing to put on the table to get that permission (traffic lights with pedestrian facilities at that junction, say?). It is not a level playing field in my opinion at the moment. Jock *of course as a land reform advocate I do not personally subscribe to this mantra! http://www.jockcoats.org.uk/jocks_categories/land_value_tax
I would certainly question whether competition 'almost inevitably' results in
cheaper or better quality food.
As an example, Tesco on Cowley Road a few years back opened a fresh fish
counter. This had the result of putting the fishmonger over the road out of
business. Then Tesco closed their fish counter and started selling foul
smelling roast chicken instead. The net result - no fresh fish for sale on the
Cowley Road.
There is still no planning application from Tesco, and this once rather fine
building continues to decay. The fence to the left has been broken, so there is
now free access to the rear of the building. It's probably not long now until
someone breaks in and vandalises it, or starts a fire.
I see that Tesco's Stores Ltd has just submitted a planning application to demolish the Friar at 2 Old Marston Road and erect a two-storey building comprising a retail unit. Planning application: 08/02606/FUL, details here: http://uniformpublicaccess.oxford.gov.uk/publicaccess/tdc/DcApplication/application_detailview.aspx?caseno=KBPKDLMF0JJ00&searchtype=WEEKLY On the subject of Marston, Seasons Delicatessen got a very good review in this week's Oxford Times: http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/business/3971913.Food_for_thought/
The proposal on the web site actually reads 'molition of existing public house
building and erection of a 2 storey building comprising a retail unit.' which
seems to be taking the art of precis to extemes. Also there are no supporting
documents and the Consultee Comments are listed as -
1 No Details 04/01/2009 No Details No Details No Details
2 No Details 04/01/2009 No Details No Details No Details
3 No Details 04/01/2009 No Details No Details No Details
All in all, rather uninformative.
The details about the Tesco's building that will replace the Friar will probably appear on the website next week. I don't know how the transfer of papers is organized from the planning department to Idox: http://investors.idoxgroup.com/ but some seem to go on immediately, while others are very slow: it can take days. It's a nuisance that the accompanying papers aren't uploaded at the same time as the application, as it means that as well as inspecting all the applications under "This Week", you have to keep going back to "Last Week" to see if the papers have arrived. Planning Alerts http://www.planningalerts.com/ is the answer if you are only interested in an area 2km around your postcode, but I like to see what is going on in other parts of Oxford too.
QuoteI Planning Alerts http://www.planningalerts.com/ is the answer if you are only interested in an area 2km around your postcode, but I like to see what is going on in other parts of Oxford too. endquote I get the planning alerts centred on my home but was missing out on most of the area covered by the forum. By playing around I found that OX3 6HG and 2km covers the area nicely. You can if you wish put in up to 15 postcodes.
Personally I would like to see The Friar be put back into use as a pub, in
Northway/Marston we need all the Pubs we can get right now, The Cavalier is
currently out of operation on Copse Lane, and that is why I do not want The
Friar demolished. I believe The Somerset on Marston Road recently changed
hands as well during this year.
I read that Clinton Pugh has plans for a music venue or something apparently.
I am not sure that a Tesco shop at this location would work, if the failure of
the Sainsburys shop at the Shell Garage is any guide to go by, and the fact
that there is already a Delicatesen on Cherwell Drive, and a Newsagents as
well, and a co op on Old Marston Road plus Cost Cutters that sell pretty much
what Tesco would be selling, so therefore I am wondering if there is
realistically any gap in the market for a Tesco shop.
Maybe The Friar might succeed as a Pub if it was reopened under a new name, and
it was given a makeover inside as well, I think it could be brought back to
life, but then I am biased in favour of pubs seeing as I come from a family who
once owned and ran a pub.
Let's be realistic. It is highly unlikely to be returned to a pub.
As you say, more are closing (why is the Cavalier out of action,
again, by the way?) than ever before - I hear the number 35 each day
in fact.
The Somerset is at least still a food and drink venue at least, albeit
not what one would call a traditional pub by any stretch of the
imagination.
I think opinion will be pretty evenly divided over this application
personally. In May it came up a lot on the doorstep, with probably an
even split between those in favour and those against. And in fact it
was usually the less well off and pensioners who were in favour and
the better off who were against - though I suspect few of the latter
were actually customers of either the Co-op or Costcutter.
Tesco's MO is to undercut local competition, so don't expect there to
be three supermarkets there in a few months' time. And that would
then free up retail space for some other retail use, perhaps, thereby
also increasing diversity. Who knows, Costcutter or the Co-op could
become the previously suggested Cafe/Music venue even. Even a
complete rebuild on that site would probably cost them less than they
take at the retail park in a day!
The problem is the longer term - Tesco have the muscle to price
competitors out of the market, but will tend in their smaller stores
to go back to premium prices once they've wiped the others out, so
those who rightly want to seize an apparent opportunity to save a few
pennies of their meagre pensions may suffer in the longer run from
even higher prices.
It will be a test for the planning system, however, because it would
be even more damaging in the long run to use the planning system to
protect less well performing competitors. I suspect the main "weapon"
for those wanting to oppose this will be traffic considerations,
however, and it will be interesting to see how Tesco deal with what is
clearly a most difficult site from that point of view. Same with the
one on the Abingdon Rd/Weirs Lane junction.
The real test in my opinion will be whether the membership of
Midcoutnies Co-op are prepared to put their money where their mouths
are and continue to support our Co-op even if they are undercut in
price terms.
Re planning application 08/02606/FUL for a Tesco's on the site of the Friar: for those waiting for more details, no fewer than 25 papers have now been uploaded here under the "Associated Documents" tab (no wonder it took so long): http://uniformpublicaccess.oxford.gov.uk/publicaccess/tdc/DcApplication/application_detailview.aspx?caseno=KBPKDLMF0JJ00&searchtype=WEEKLY I would be very pleased to have a small Tesco's near me, and miss the Sainsbury's at the petrol station very much. It did not close because of lack of support (in fact often the queues reached the door); but Sainsbury's took a blanket decision to end all its 25 franchises with Shell garages.
Jolly good - there looks to be some interesting, not to say amusing, reading
here, especially the report from the 'Independent Expert' (his initials, not
mine) into the viability of the pub. He was instructed to report by Tescos - I
wonder what he'll say?
* Being located on a traffic black-spot T junction Tesco's will place more
lives at risk - pedestrians, cyclists and car users
* Being located near a major road, near the JR Hospital, Tesco's will cause
more traffic congestion and pollution
* Tesco's risk the closure of local community shops - the local phamacy,
Costcutter, Marston Deli and Co-op.
* The local community needs more housing or a community pub now the Somerset
has become a cocktail bar - not a new convenience store that adds nothing to
the area but takes plenty away.
Given: we can't object on competition grounds but Tesco's can use the
competition argument despite its monopolisation approach; the Competition
Commission again cop out on dealing with Tescopoly and the fact you will not
find the BBC or any other channels mainstream journalists daring to criticise
Sir Terry Leahy - the only hope is going to be strong local opposition.
I agree with you Tony about the Traffic situation that this planning issue is
likely to raise, and Residents Against The Parking Tax will do everything in
its power to help prevent this store from happening, we don't just deal with
Residents Parking Permit matters and unjust Permit Charges, we also handle
defective Penalty Charge Notice cases, plus we take an interest in issues of
local road safety as well. I know this area well, and my assessment is that
this junction is highly dangerous, and has a lot of through traffic which
includes buses. There is not much spare parking capacity on street round this
area most weekdays either.
Should this development happen it would also raise the issue of lorries parking
and unloading, and given the location of the Friar and the Parking situation
that already exists as I have just mentioned, there is nowhere suitable for big
delivery trucks to park out of the way of the traffic flow.
This could cause real problems. The lorry that delivers to the co op
supermarket on Old Marston Road has enough trouble parking on some occasions as
he can't always get access to the layby pull in area directly outside the shop.
I think this Tesco shop plan is a non starter frankly and should be roundly
rejected.
Plus cost cutters, The co op and the news agents on Cherwell Drive already sell
most of what the proposed Tesco shop would be selling, so I cannot see the
economic sense or need for this proposed new shop. plus there is Rosie's at
Westland's Drive as well.
Northway could do with The Cavalier Pub being reopened for business on the
subject of Pubs, and I think, as I have mentioned before in an earlier post,
that The Friar should remain a Pub. Afterall, Sainsbury couldn't make the shop
at the Shell Garage work, and given this proposed Tesco shop would be roughly
the same size I cannot see it working.
There is an interesting article on the Tesco's planning application for the Friar in the Oxford Mail, with the views of both sides: http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/headlines/3991821.Tesco_plans_divide_residents/ I can't help wondering whether the people who are worrying so much about the possible demise of Costcutter actually use it as their main supermarket. Either way, it is obvious that not enough of them supported their local pub. On the subject of pubs, C.S. Lewis's local, the Ampleforth Arms in Risinghurst, is currently deemed to be at risk: it featured on the BBC television local news last week. And Henry Mo has taken a big risk at the Somerset, ignoring advice from his bank manager and accountant, according to the Oxford Mail: http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/headlines/3991354.Owner_hopes_to_buck_pub_decline/
Both Costcutters and the Coop are well used and invaluable for locals,
especially with the PO in Costcutters. I use them for everyday things. There is
absolutely no need for another store, especially one that would drive the
others out of business. The parking/delivery problem is already dire. A Tesco
store should be rejected out of hand as
a) it is not necessary
b) it would exacerbate parking problems 100%
c) traffic increase would add to safety problems at a difficult junction
d) it would have a negative impact on the local shops (I believe that if Tesco
did build a store they would anyway eventually pull out, during which time the
local stores would have gone down the tubes)
I can't see this site ever returning as a pub so my guess is that it will
developed as flats. If that happens the site will probably start to look even
worse than it does now. Don't get me started...!
Anyone seen the Marston councillors?
Anyone seen the Marston Councillors? says Mr Batey.
That would be Marston Councillors as in Mary Clarkson and Beverley Jane Hazell
for Marston Ward, I have contact details for both of them, which you can get
from a leaflet called Your Councillors, that contains all their photographs, e
mail addresses, and phone numbers. I pass Mary Clarksons home about once every
week, going to and from Northway to see friends. This issue of Cost Cutters
and the Planning Application by Tesco for the Friar site needs to be regularly
kept to the attention of the Area Committee.
Also Mohammed Altaf Khan the Councillor for Northway and Headington Hill ward
doesn't live far from Cost Cutters, as he lives just off Marston Road.
Both Beverley Hazell and Mary Clarkson are guilty of hiding behind wall to wall
answer phones 24/7, so probably best to either write to them, or go to one of
the local Area Committee Meetings and speak to them in person, or go and
doorstep them outside their own homes, this can be really good fun to do to a
Councillor.
I would also not expect a public comment on a planning application
from any of them though. Whether you write, phone, email or use
Nicholas's idea of "fun" to get to them (elected they may be, but they
are not "public property" to go and harry in their homes I would
suggest).
The two ward councillors have been contacted already by the applicants
and have rightly declined to get involved in any discussion with them
owing to the requirement for them to remain impartial on what will be
a quasi-judicial decision making process (so long as the supreme
soviet has not centralized the function by then). That applies to
commenting on the merits of objectors' points as well as applicants'.
Nor would it be right to expect a comment from the area committee as a
body (unless the supreme soviet has already centralized the planning
function in which case members of the area not on the centralized
planning committee could just be interested and lobbying ward
councillors) for the same reason - if they are not considering the
application at the time they would be unwise to make a comment.
Such things, "fettering the discretion" of councillors involved in the
development control decision-making, are apt to return to bite the
council should, for example, the committee (whichever it is) decide to
refuse and then be appealed against.
If City Councillors were to come out in favour or in opposition to a
planning application prior to that application being determined at Area
Committee, they would automatically be debarred from taking part in the
debate. That would mean that they would be unable to vote for what they
believed to be best for the area and people they represent. Both Beverley
Hazell and I have answered numerous emails and letters from local people
about the Tesco application and we shall weigh up the arguments for and
against before the decision is made. It might seem popular for us to walk
around getting names on a petition and might be an easy way to win votes,.
However, it would be letting down the electorate for us to do so, since we
would then be unable to make their views - and ours - known in the planning
debate. It's frustrating but I'm afraid that's how planning law works.
Mary Clarkson
Thanks, Jock, for your sane comments. My latest post makes the same point
about the restrictions placed on City Councillors who then have to vote on
planning applications in their ward.
On the issue of councillor accessibility: Nick should know that I am
contactable by 'phone. He certainly rings me and speaks to me several times
a month! I try to answer all messages by phone or email (I receive very few
letters these days) within a couple of days, unless they're urgent when I
ring back straightaway. Beverley Hazell and I also hold street surgeries at
least once a month, but it takes several months to cover the whole of
Marston. Doorstepping may seem fun for some, but councillors, like everybody
else, need to have a private life.
Mary Clarkson
I do hope that everyone who objects to the planning application for "The
Friar" has written or emailed in formally to the planning department,
clearly stating the reasons for their objection. It is important to get all
the possible reasons for rejection established in the Planning Officers'
report before it is considered by councillors - particularly if an
application is rejected and then is taken to appeal, which Tesco can
certainly afford to do.
Tony
Indeed - comments are open until 7th January. Mine is as follows:
PublicAccess for Planning - Application Comments (08/02606/FUL)
"Jock Coats", you have been sent this email because you or somebody
else has submitted a comment on a Planning Application to Oxford City
Council using your email address.
A summary of your comments is provided below.
Comments were submitted at 24/12/2008 00:15:40 from IP 192.168.1.18.
Application Summary
How close to the site do we have to live for our objections to be considered?
I feel that a Tesco would change the character of that area rather a lot, but
nobody seems to care about that sort of objection nowadays.
There is a huge Tescos already of course, in the Cowley Road.
As for the pubs closing, that of course is the result of the EU anti-smoking
laws.
While I hate smoking myself, (especially close to where I am eating) we have to
face the fact that most of our pubs will be gone in the next few years, and
gone forever, because nobody will ever be able to afford to buy the premises
back.
Personally I think that pubs should be allowed to have a smoking room (with an
extractor fan) and also a real, open fire in the Christmas season. Considering
the huge amount of industrial pollution we pour into the sea and the
atmosphere, it's silly to argue about a little bit of wood-smoke at a season
when a real fire would cheer everybody up.
Fundamental error
Apart from the discussion about the need of a pub on the Marston Road, there
are various minor inaccuracies in the planning submission for a Tesco Express
store there.
And there is one major inaccuracy that undoes the whole basis of the proposal
and it’s to do with the existing retail floorspace.
The Retail Capacity Assessment clause C4.2 concedes that in line with the
Government’s city planning policy requirement PPS6 "greater weight should be
placed on the quantitative need for additional [retail] floorspace" and the
planning documents pay considerable attention to demonstrating current and
future spending capacity compared to provision.
Clause 3.5 of the Planning Statement refers to other food outlets, existing
services and needs, and a retail assessment prepared for the proposal (Appendix
C2) which apparently confirms the appropriateness of further development.
However their starting data of existing retail floorspace is under-reported by
64%, and arguably more (Appendix C2 Table 4).
See the whole comment in the attached document.
The following file was added to this topic:
I would like to echo Mary Clarkson's comments about the fact that as City
Councillors we cannot give our opinion on a planning application if we want to
be able to vote on it. We do want to hear people's opinions though both those
for and against. Those for an application often don't comment so we don't get a
balance view of local opinion.
On the issue of accessibility my mobile phone that I was using for council
business has not been working properly. My new number is 07758 210722 and I
will be happy to talk to anyone who has an opinion on this matter. Sometimes
due to being at work I will be unable to answer your call but if you leave your
name and number I will try and return your call as soon as possible.
Beverley Hazell
I sent these comments on Tesco's application to the City Council -
'I object to the application 08/02606/FUL. Specifically I object to the
demolition of The Friar public house.
New Marston is a large and growing area that has for many years been served by
three pubs, The Somerset, The Friar and The Jack Russell. The Somerset has now
been turned into a cocktail bar and restaurant. Pubs are the places for people
to meet and socialise. To take away another one of these pubs risks creating a
large area of lifeless suburb. I think it especially that important suburban
pubs such as The Friar are saved - they are close to where people live, and are
vital as meeting places for societies, places to play games - and just to drink
and chat. The Friar has a large and potentially beautiful garden, which is a
very good place for local families to enjoy on warm days.
Point 12.9.9. of the Oxford Local Plan recognises the importance of public
houses -
'Public houses have two distinct roles: firstly, in mainly residential areas as
a community facility; and secondly as part of the historic legacy of Oxford.
The City Council will prevent their loss to alternative uses unless a lack of
viability can be clearly demonstrated over a reasonable time-scale, which is
not due to operational or marketing practices. Viability should take into
account a range of factors such as evidence of the property having been
properly marketed for its existing use at a reasonable price, the catchment
population, other facilities in the area serving the same market, and
accessibility by modes other than the private car.'
When Arkells were trying to sell the pub in 2007 there was strong interest from
the Vale Brewery Company of Brill, but negotiations fell through at a late
stage. Policy RC 18 in the Local Plan states that -
'Planning permission will only be granted for the change of use of a public
house if one or more of the following criteria are met:
a. no other potential occupier can be found following a realistic effort to
market the premises for its existing use; b. substantial evidence of
non-viability is submitted; and c. it is demonstrated that suitable alternative
public houses exist to meet the needs of the local community'
I believe none of the criteria set out in Policy RC 18 have been proved to
have been met, and therefore change of use should not be granted.
I have no doubt that with good and imaginative ownership The Friar could again
be a vibrant and successful pub at the heart of the community.'