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Bob Spaulding	=?Windows-1252?B?SU1HMDAyNjQuanBn?=	Sep 04 22:49 UTC

From: Bob Spaulding Date: Sep 04 22:49 UTC Short link

There's a standoff the last half hour along John Ireland with about 300
protesters....

Fletcher is here and throwing grass in the air.....One could guess what that
might mean, but...

Snow plows are now backing up mounted patrol and cops three deep.

Deep tensions have come to our doorstep...  YIKES.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

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From: Gloria Bogen Date: Sep 04 23:26 UTC Short link

Here is what happened (to a point)...The march organizers had a permit to march
that expired at 5:00 pm (I assume because of downtown traffic build up at that
time).  The march was to proceed down Cedar and, I believe, onto 7th to the
viewing/speaking area on W. 7th - and then to return to the Capitol.  When 5:00
pm arrived, the march had not started and, because they no longer had a permit,
were not going to be allowed to march.  The protesters broke into groups and
started walking every which-way from the Capitol grounds - with a majority
going down John Ireland - which was not secured (traffic-wise) for a march.  At
that time the volunteer police reserves (from St. Paul and other jurisdictions)
were ordered to fall back to their command post outside of downtown - for their
safety...And that is the last I know about the incident, since I needed to
leave with the rest of the Reserves.

At this time, the news is reporting the return of the protesters to the Capitol
area - with no incidents of violence or mace or tear gas...

Gloria Bogen
West Side = Best Side
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Bob Spaulding<mailto:bob_spaulding@mac.com>
  To: St. Paul Issues Forum<mailto:stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
  Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 5:35 PM
  Subject: [SPIF] Standoff at Capitol


  There's a standoff the last half hour along John Ireland with about 300
protesters....

  Fletcher is here and throwing grass in the air.....One could guess what that
might mean, but...

  Snow plows are now backing up mounted patrol and cops three deep.

  Deep tensions have come to our doorstep...  YIKES.
  Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
  St. Paul Issues Forum now contains the following file

http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/file/2674-2008-09-04T224952Z<http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/file/2674-2008-09-04T224952Z>
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  Bob Spaulding
  Downtown, St Paul
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From: Bob Spaulding Date: Sep 04 23:32 UTC Short link

What Gloria said jives with what I'm seeing...

Protesters - without any visible violence - have been slowly forced down John
Ireland toward the capitol in the last 15 min or so.

Some good work by law enforcement, at least fom a distance....

Bob.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: GLORIA E BOGEN <geb1018_1@msn.com>

Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 18:26:51
To: <bob_spaulding@mac.com>; St. Paul Issues
Forum<stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
Subject: Re: [SPIF] Standoff at Capitol

Here is what happened (to a point)...The march organizers had a permit to march
that expired at 5:00 pm (I assume because of downtown traffic build up at that
time).  The march was to proceed down Cedar and, I believe, onto 7th to the
viewing/speaking area on W. 7th - and then to return to the Capitol.  When 5:00
pm arrived, the march had not started and, because they no longer had a permit,
were not going to be allowed to march.  The protesters broke into groups and
started walking every which-way from the Capitol grounds - with a majority
going down John Ireland - which was not secured (traffic-wise) for a march.  At
that time the volunteer police reserves (from St. Paul and other jurisdictions)
were ordered to fall back to their command post outside of downtown - for their
safety...And that is the last I know about the incident, since I needed to
leave with the rest of the Reserves.

At this time, the news is reporting the return of the protesters to the Capitol
area - with no incidents of violence or mace or tear gas...

Gloria Bogen
West Side = Best Side
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Bob Spaulding<mailto:bob_spaulding@mac.com>
  To: St. Paul Issues Forum<mailto:stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
  Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 5:35 PM
  Subject: [SPIF] Standoff at Capitol

  There's a standoff the last half hour along John Ireland with about 300
protesters....

  Fletcher is here and throwing grass in the air.....One could guess what that
might mean, but...

  Snow plows are now backing up mounted patrol and cops three deep.

  Deep tensions have come to our doorstep...  YIKES.
  Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
  St. Paul Issues Forum now contains the following file

http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/file/2674-2008-09-04T224952Z<http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/file/2674-2008-09-04T224952Z>
      Name: =?Windows-1252?B?SU1HMDAyNjQuanBn?=
      Tags: "attachment"
      Type: image/jpeg
      Size: 70KB

  All the files that have been added to St. Paul Issues Forum can be viewed at
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  Bob Spaulding
  Downtown, St Paul
  Info about Bob Spaulding:
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From: Nancy Bolin Date: Sep 05 01:44 UTC Short link

Gloria do you know that 1 hour time to be factual.  I heard that today the city
changed their march time from 2 hours to 1 hour and that people who wanted to
protest would not get there in time so would miss their opportunity so the
organizers continued with the original schedule.

From: Gloria Bogen Date: Sep 05 02:54 UTC Short link

How do I know my explanation to be factual, as opposed to information someone
else "heard"?????

Considering I was there and I knew as early as 4:30 that if the parade didnt
start by 5 - it would not start?  ......  but maybe I can explain what was
probably happening.

You can certainly have a 2 hour permit for a parade - and I believe that was
the standard time frame for the marches at the DNC.  The permits, however, have
a start and end time on them.  This is extremely important and "set in stone"
because a parade (aka protest march in the city code - chapter 366A) will be
"interfering with the normal flow of traffic", and the police department needs
to determine the need for traffic control and and set it all up (get enough
officers/volunteers - determine a route that will be least disruptive to normal
traffic - obtain any necessary street barriers from public works - plus make
sure it occurs during a "down-time" of traffic in the area in which it will
occur - and make absolutely certain that the safety of the marchers is ensured
).  This is why you won't see a permit for the White Bear Avenue Parade
starting at 4pm and ending at 6pm - it would screw up rush hour - traffic would
be impossible to hold back and there could be accidents or parade goers being
hurt..

So, one of two things could have happened, pursuant to the facts as I know them
from being there and hearing what was going on via police radio communications.
The first could be that the permit was from 3-5 and, since the march did not
start at 5 - it was cancelled.  The second (and the more I think about it, the
more likely scenario), is that the permit had a start time of 4pm and an end
time of 6pm.    Traffic controls were in place and ready to go during that time
period.  If it ran later than 6pm, it would muck up the downtown traffic -
people returning home from work, delegate busses needing to get in to drop off
delegates, etc.  If it ran later than 6pm, the traffic controls would no longer
be in place - thereby placing the marchers' safety at risk.  The DNC marches
that I have been around for have taken around 1 to 1-1/2 hours to get down to
the speech area by the xcel, have speeches and a rally by the xcel, and return
to the capitol grounds.  It has been longer for larger crowds and slightly less
time for smaller ones.

Therefore, unless the march started by 5pm, the police had the right to cancel
it (because they could not secure the streets and stop the traffic flow any
later than 6pm).  THIS IS FIRST AND FOREMOST FOR THE SAFETY OF THE MARCHERS
!!!!!  The organizers were likely told at some point when they were STALLING
the beginning of the march, that they had to start by 5pm or forfeit the
permit.

A permit can be revoked:
Sec. 366A.16. Revocation of permit.

The chief of police shall have the authority to revoke a parade, race or public
assembly permit instantly upon violation of the conditions or standards for
issuance as set forth in this chapter or when a public emergency arises where
the police resources required for that emergency are so great that deployment
of police services for the parade, race or public assembly would have an
immediate and adverse effect upon the welfare and safety of persons or
property.

----------------------------------

So, since these permits were issued quite a while ago, these organizers KNEW
the time limits on their permit and if they couldn't get everyone there on time
- well, too bad.  And if they were STALLING for the sake of stalling and trying
to get to the xcel later than their permit time - to get there and demonstrate
for a bigger crowd of delegates arriving for the evening session (which was a
theory today), they failed at that.  It isn't child's play, it sure ain't easy,
to plan all the traffic controls for any parade in St. Paul.  It takes weeks of
planning - I know - I have done the traffic control planning for dozens of
neighborhood parades.  And the participants in a parade or march do not control
what happens - they have to start and end on time - and they can't change the
route (which they ALSO attempted to do today - by heading down John Ireland -
where NO traffic control was in place).  They truly endangered themselves by
doing so - they were walking into traffic and that is why the two big trucks
had to be used to stop cars from driving toward the marchers.

Gloria Bogen

West Side = Best Side

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Nancy Bolin<mailto:nbolin@comcast.net>
  To: St. Paul Issues Forum<mailto:stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
  Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [SPIF] Standoff at Capitol


  Gloria do you know that 1 hour time to be factual.  I heard that today the
city changed their march time from 2 hours to 1 hour and that people who wanted
to protest would not get there in time so would miss their opportunity so the
organizers continued with the original schedule.


  Nancy Bolin
  Homcroft West 7th , Saint Paul
  Info about Nancy Bolin:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/3QKHxm1VKVXD31OTIzxw6e<http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/3QKHxm1VKVXD31OTIzxw6e>

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From: Diane Gerth Date: Sep 05 03:37 UTC Short link

If they had a permit to march from 3 to 5, how come they were not set to
marching at 3?

That's just question one of about ten million I have.

Diane Gerth
Under the choppers in the West End and Downtown

From: Bob Spaulding Date: Sep 05 04:57 UTC Short link

I'd heard this elsewhere, but according to the StarTribune, "Meredith
Aby, another protest organizer, said the permit's timeframe was
unsatisfactory because the demonstrators wanted to greet delegates as
they arrived for GOP presidential candidate John McCain's acceptance
speech."
(http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/conventions/27869459.html
)   And question 9,999,999?

From: Charley Underwood Date: Sep 05 05:28 UTC Short link

I am back from an evening working as a street medic, dinner finally eaten,
shower taken.

After the standoffs at Ireland, Cedar, then Ireland then Marion bridges, the
march moved up Marion to University, then turned east toward the Capitol again.
Before arriving at the Capitol, the storm troopers (forgive me if this sounds
harsh, but the way they are dressed, I have no idea of they are police, highway
patrol, National Guard or Blackwater) set off concussion grenades and the crowd
scattered.  I was immediately separated from my two team members.  I witnessed
one young man with a paint ball mark on his face, treated another for pepper
spray in the eyes and saw his likewise pepper-sprayed girlfriend.  While I was
decontaminating the fellow's eyes on a side street around the corner from
Marion, lines of mounted police all across Marion swept the marchers back
toward the Marron Bridge.  They were followed by a thick line of storm
troopers.

The other two members of my medic team were trapped on the Marion bridge over
I-94 and they were arrested.  I feel bad about that, since they were both young
and really quite skittish.  They really, really didn't want to get arrested.  I
wish there was something else I could do.

I am home now.  The nightmare if almost over, except that I am afraid that
relations with the police will never be the same again.  It will be impossible
for anyone who has witnessed this tragic situation to ever feel the same about
St Paul again.  It is almost over, except the sight of the storm troopers and
the memory of pepper spray in the eyes will remain with many young people for
the rest of their lives.  It's almost over, except those of us who remember
what Chief Harrington and Assistant Chief Bostrom said will never trust their
word again.  It is almost over, except for the businesses that will go bankrupt
and the massive illegal arrest and police brutality settlements that will take
years and millions.

What could make any of this better?  Only something like a  "truth and
reconciliation" hearing where authorities would admit to their lies and errors.
If that would happen, the healing might begin.  Even then, it will take a long,
long time.

From: Martin Owings Date: Sep 05 06:33 UTC Short link

Pleas check out the latest photos and video I placed on Radio Free Nation. I
was there, filming it all and interviewing people. I just got home after being
gassed and had a flash bang grenade land less than 15 feet from me.

I took photo's of the police and injured protesters.

I've never witnessed POLICE action like I did tonight. Just incredible.

Martin
Radio Free Nation
radiofreenation.blogspot.com
SUPPORT INDEPENDENT MEDIA

From: Mike Fratto Date: Sep 05 11:27 UTC Short link

What is going to be real interesting is who was actually pushed to the bridge
so they could be arrested. Watching KARE11 last night, one of their staff who
had just arrived found himself in the net that ended up on the bridge and
arrested. He reported at lease one couple, caught up like him, had just left
Sears and were headed to their car.

Imagine that! Going shopping and making the mistake of coming out of the store
and getting arrested. In St. Paul no less.

Mike Fratto
Payne Phalen


Please help those who don't get enough to eat.
http://oyh.org
http://hungersolutions.org

The future depends more on
what we do between now and then
Than what we did in the past.

--- On Fri, 9/5/08, Charley Underwood <charleyunderwood@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Charley Underwood <charleyunderwood@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [SPIF] Standoff at Capitol
To: "St. Paul Issues Forum" <stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:30 AM

I am back from an evening working as a street medic, dinner finally eaten,
shower taken.

After the standoffs at Ireland, Cedar, then Ireland then Marion bridges, the
march moved up Marion to University, then turned east toward the Capitol again.
Before arriving at the Capitol, the storm troopers (forgive me if this sounds
harsh, but the way they are dressed, I have no idea of they are police, highway
patrol, National Guard or Blackwater) set off concussion grenades and the crowd
scattered.  I was immediately separated from my two team members.  I witnessed
one young man with a paint ball mark on his face, treated another for pepper
spray in the eyes and saw his likewise pepper-sprayed girlfriend.  While I was
decontaminating the fellow's eyes on a side street around the corner from
Marion, lines of mounted police all across Marion swept the marchers back
toward
the Marron Bridge.  They were followed by a thick line of storm troopers.

The other two members of my medic team were trapped on the Marion bridge over
I-94 and they were arrested.  I feel bad about that, since they were both young
and really quite skittish.  They really, really didn't want to get arrested.
 I wish there was something else I could do.

I am home now.  The nightmare if almost over, except that I am afraid that
relations with the police will never be the same again.  It will be impossible
for anyone who has witnessed this tragic situation to ever feel the same about
St Paul again.  It is almost over, except the sight of the storm troopers and
the memory of pepper spray in the eyes will remain with many young people for
the rest of their lives.  It's almost over, except those of us who remember
what Chief Harrington and Assistant Chief Bostrom said will never trust their
word again.  It is almost over, except for the businesses that will go bankrupt
and the massive illegal arrest and police brutality settlements that will take
years and millions.

What could make any of this better?  Only something like a  "truth and
reconciliation" hearing where authorities would admit to their lies and
errors.  If that would happen, the healing might begin.  Even then, it will
take
a long, long time.

Charley Underwood
Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
Info about Charley Underwood: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charleyunderwood

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From: Nancy Bolin Date: Sep 05 12:47 UTC Short link

Gloria: There's no need to get defenfensive about this.  I too have been at the
state capitol from 8 in the morning to about 10 at night since last Sunday.
While there yesterday word spread to the group who were to march that the
length of time had changed from two hours to one hour so they needed to spread
the word.  I was just asking you because I thought you knew something about the
permits.  My mistake... sorry

From: Gloria Bogen Date: Sep 05 13:04 UTC Short link

Some of the marching groups have used about the first 20-30 minutes of their
permit for speeches on the capitol grounds and to get lines up  That was
expected.  And law enforcement certainly doesnt have the right to physically
push a group peaceably assembled onto Cedar Street and into a march when they
aren't quite ready.  BUT, the permit holders/organizers knew their time frame
and for their safety, and the safety of people and vehicles downtown, were
going to be held to the permit times.  They would have no right to expect that
they could stall for hours after the 5pm required start (waiting for McCain's
speech after 9pm) and expect that they would have the streets shut down for
them and all traffic control plans in place.  This group WAS being unreasonable
- and giving a bad name to all the other groups of peaceful protesters I helped
over the past few days....

Gloria Bogen
West Side = Best Side

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Diane Gerth<mailto:gerthkueny@aol.com>
  To: St. Paul Issues Forum<mailto:stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
  Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 10:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [SPIF] Standoff at Capitol


  If they had a permit to march from 3 to 5, how come they were not set to
marching at 3?

  That's just question one of about ten million I have.

  Diane Gerth
  Under the choppers in the West End and Downtown


  Diane Gerth
  West End, St. Paul
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From: Gloria Bogen Date: Sep 05 13:13 UTC Short link

So, since the permit's time frame was unsatisfactory, this group felt they had
a right to march when they wanted to?  Without traffic safety controls in
place?  Just walk into downtown through moving traffic?  The organizers of this
protest march didnt have to follow the rules?

I am the first one to protect the 1st amendment and join into peaceful
protests.  But there have to be rules and regulations in place to ensure safety
of innocent bystanders, vehicles, property, law enforcement AND the marchers
themselves.

Gloria Bogen
West Side = Best Side
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Bob Spaulding<mailto:bob_spaulding@mac.com>
  To: St. Paul Issues Forum<mailto:stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
  Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [SPIF] Standoff at Capitol

  I'd heard this elsewhere, but according to the StarTribune, "Meredith
  Aby, another protest organizer, said the permit's timeframe was
  unsatisfactory because the demonstrators wanted to greet delegates as
  they arrived for GOP presidential candidate John McCain's acceptance
  speech."
(http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/conventions/27869459.html<http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/conventions/27869459.html>
  )   And question 9,999,999?

  On Sep 4, 2008, at 10:39 PM, Diane Gerth wrote:

  > If they had a permit to march from 3 to 5, how come they were not
  > set to marching at 3?
  >
  > That's just question one of about ten million I have.
  >
  > Diane Gerth
  > Under the choppers in the West End and Downtown
  >
  >
  > Diane Gerth
  > West End, St. Paul
  > Info about Diane Gerth:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dianegerth<http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dianegerth>
  >
  > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
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From: caty royce Date: Sep 05 13:18 UTC Short link

I agree with Charley that we need some type of public investigation and
airing of the degradation of civil rights that occurred during the past
week.  But I would urge us to come up with a different name for it, the
Truth and Reconciliation Commission, i think, should remain sacred to truly
abhorrent times in history where there has been loss of life such as tracing
accountability for the thousands of deaths perpetrated by the South African
government during aparthied, or the hideous ethnic cleansing in Rawanda.

I could find only one instance in the US where a Truth and Reconciliation
Commission was appointed and that was the KKK's murder of five people in
Greensboro in 1979.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_massacre

However disturbing this police state activity has been I think it would be a
mistake to liken it to any of the above mentioned events.  I do think it
important to name it and soon and to begin a concise articulation of events,
as suggested by Dave Thune (who in my humble opinion has been a elected
official hero through this), so as not to lose any of the important details.


In addition, I think we should all be very vigilant for any same or similar
activity by our local police departments, this kind of power once granted
and excercised does not easily get put away, i imagine.

caty royce
still missing selby, in south mpls.



On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Charley Underwood <

<email obscured>> wrote:

> I am back from an evening working as a street medic, dinner finally eaten,
> shower taken.
>
> After the standoffs at Ireland, Cedar, then Ireland then Marion bridges,
> the march moved up Marion to University, then turned east toward the Capitol
> again.  Before arriving at the Capitol, the storm troopers (forgive me if
> this sounds harsh, but the way they are dressed, I have no idea of they are
> police, highway patrol, National Guard or Blackwater) set off concussion
> grenades and the crowd scattered.  I was immediately separated from my two
> team members.  I witnessed one young man with a paint ball mark on his face,
> treated another for pepper spray in the eyes and saw his likewise
> pepper-sprayed girlfriend.  While I was decontaminating the fellow's eyes on
> a side street around the corner from Marion, lines of mounted police all
> across Marion swept the marchers back toward the Marron Bridge.  They were
> followed by a thick line of storm troopers.
>
> The other two members of my medic team were trapped on the Marion bridge
> over I-94 and they were arrested.  I feel bad about that, since they were
> both young and really quite skittish.  They really, really didn't want to
> get arrested.  I wish there was something else I could do.
>
> I am home now.  The nightmare if almost over, except that I am afraid that
> relations with the police will never be the same again.  It will be
> impossible for anyone who has witnessed this tragic situation to ever feel
> the same about St Paul again.  It is almost over, except the sight of the
> storm troopers and the memory of pepper spray in the eyes will remain with
> many young people for the rest of their lives.  It's almost over, except
> those of us who remember what Chief Harrington and Assistant Chief Bostrom
> said will never trust their word again.  It is almost over, except for the
> businesses that will go bankrupt and the massive illegal arrest and police
> brutality settlements that will take years and millions.
>
> What could make any of this better?  Only something like a  "truth and
> reconciliation" hearing where authorities would admit to their lies and
> errors.  If that would happen, the healing might begin.  Even then, it will
> take a long, long time.
>
>
> Charley Underwood
> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
> Info about Charley Underwood:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charleyunderwood
>
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--
"In the recognition of loving lies an answer to despair." audre lorde

From: Bob Spaulding Date: Sep 05 15:29 UTC Short link

Secretary B, et al -

I was trying to just stay factual in my response to the question
asked.  But just in case there's any confusion, I've been consistent
since first watching this unfold that organizers completely made the
wrong call in marching after the permit expired, after police clearly
notified them via loudspeaker that their permit had expired.

I respect non-violent civil disobedience as a tactic in many
situations - the Civil Rights movement being a great example.  But
reflecting on the events of this week, I'm not sure civil disobedience
is tactically effective at promoting any message in a high-security
environment such as this.  This was a highly unusual situation with a
high degree of volatility and countless highly-sensitive people and
potential targets.

And so, for me, to blame the police for doing everything they could
last night to both hold the line and break up the march would seem to
me unfounded, unnecessarily divisive, and a misunderstanding of what
established case law has to say about free speech.  I watched a major
tense standoff continue non-violently for hours.

All that aside, this event was unlike anything we've ever hosted.
Even if all the security decisions were local (which they clearly were
not), I don't think we can transfer what happened here to any other
context.  And of course, many decisions were not local.

The only thing we can currently infer reasonably is this.  If we host
another major party convention locally, and there are credible threats
of violence against property or people, we can expect this might be
the reaction we'll see.  But I think once every century is about the
right timeframe for us to host these conventions.

Time for a good beer, and a chance to enjoy the last days of summer.

From: Bob Spaulding Date: Sep 05 15:41 UTC Short link

All that said, I also want to clear that there are still things about
last night that trouble me - most especially the arrest of several
journalists, many of them mainstream TV news photographers, which is
hard not to interpret as a way of chilling journalistic coverage of
police actions.

I remain open to the possibility that others were mistreated as well.
That said, I would not categorize the arrest of people attempting to
march en masse to the Xcel Center as inappropriate in itself.

Bob


On Sep 5, 2008, at 10:29 AM, Bob Spaulding wrote:

> Secretary B, et al -
>
> I was trying to just stay factual in my response to the question
> asked.  But just in case there's any confusion, I've been consistent
> since first watching this unfold that organizers completely made the
> wrong call in marching after the permit expired, after police clearly
> notified them via loudspeaker that their permit had expired.
>
> I respect non-violent civil disobedience as a tactic in many
> situations - the Civil Rights movement being a great example.  But
> reflecting on the events of this week, I'm not sure civil disobedience
> is tactically effective at promoting any message in a high-security
> environment such as this.  This was a highly unusual situation with a
> high degree of volatility and countless highly-sensitive people and
> potential targets.
>
> And so, for me, to blame the police for doing everything they could
> last night to both hold the line and break up the march would seem to
> me unfounded, unnecessarily divisive, and a misunderstanding of what
> established case law has to say about free speech.  I watched a major
> tense standoff continue non-violently for hours.
>
> All that aside, this event was unlike anything we've ever hosted.
> Even if all the security decisions were local (which they clearly were
> not), I don't think we can transfer what happened here to any other
> context.  And of course, many decisions were not local.
>
> The only thing we can currently infer reasonably is this.  If we host
> another major party convention locally, and there are credible threats
> of violence against property or people, we can expect this might be
> the reaction we'll see.  But I think once every century is about the
> right timeframe for us to host these conventions.
>
> Time for a good beer, and a chance to enjoy the last days of summer.
>
> Spau
>
>
> On Sep 5, 2008, at 8:13 AM, GLORIA E BOGEN wrote:
>
>> So, since the permit's time frame was unsatisfactory, this group
>> felt they had a right to march when they wanted to?  Without traffic
>> safety controls in place?  Just walk into downtown through moving
>> traffic?  The organizers of this protest march didnt have to follow
>> the rules?
>>
>> I am the first one to protect the 1st amendment and join into
>> peaceful protests.  But there have to be rules and regulations in
>> place to ensure safety of innocent bystanders, vehicles, property,
>> law enforcement AND the marchers themselves.
>>
>> Gloria Bogen
>> West Side = Best Side
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Bob Spaulding<mailto:bob_spaulding@mac.com>
>> To: St. Paul Issues Forum<mailto:stpaul-issues@forums.e-
>> democracy.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [SPIF] Standoff at Capitol
>>
>>
>> I'd heard this elsewhere, but according to the StarTribune, "Meredith
>> Aby, another protest organizer, said the permit's timeframe was
>> unsatisfactory because the demonstrators wanted to greet delegates as
>> they arrived for GOP presidential candidate John McCain's acceptance
>> speech."
(http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/conventions/27869459.html
>> <http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/conventions/27869459.html
>>>
>> )   And question 9,999,999?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 4, 2008, at 10:39 PM, Diane Gerth wrote:
>>
>>> If they had a permit to march from 3 to 5, how come they were not
>>> set to marching at 3?
>>>
>>> That's just question one of about ten million I have.
>>>
>>> Diane Gerth
>>> Under the choppers in the West End and Downtown
>>>
>>>
>>> Diane Gerth
>>> West End, St. Paul
>>> Info about Diane Gerth:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dianegerth<http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dianegerth
>>>>
>>>
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>>
>> Bob Spaulding
>> Downtown, St Paul
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>> West Side = Best Side, St Paul
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From: Chip Peterson Date: Sep 05 16:37 UTC Short link

Whatever the range of different interpretations about what happened
over the past few days, I would hope everyone can agree on one thing:
that St. Paul should never agree to host another event of this kind
again without an absolute commitment that all uniformed law
enforcement officials will be clearly identified by name and
jurisdiction.

Allowing police to roam around in Darth Vader gear with no way for
civilians to know who they are or what law enforcement agency they are
from invites abuse and, if abuse does occur, impedes accountability.
And if the city is sued, how under these circumstances can it possibly
prove that someone else was responsible?

Does anyone know why, and by whom, all of those police were allowed to
remain unidentified this week?  Did our city officials know in advance
it would happen?  What, if anything, did they do to prevent it?  Were
any prior agreements violated when it did occur?  If so, what after-
the-fact recourse does the city have?

Chip Peterson
Mac Groveland

From: David Titus Date: Sep 05 17:13 UTC Short link

Mr. Peterson writes: "Whatever the range of different interpretations about
what happened
over the past few days, I would hope everyone can agree on one thing:
that St. Paul should never agree to host another event of this kind
again without an absolute commitment that all uniformed law
enforcement officials will be clearly identified by name and
jurisdiction."

My version:  "St. Paul should never agree to host another event of this kind
again without an absolute commitment..." by the criminals to not bring knives,
9mm semi-auto handguns, spikes, bags of urine and feces, build bombs and spears
to harm mounted units, break windows and benches, bash squad cars w/ garbage
cans, assault officers and law obeying protesters, use violence to halt others'
free speech and hide their identity while committing such criminal and
oppressive activities.

The Current information that I have is - Police Officer injuries were
fortunately minimal - thanks for asking.

From: Mike Schoenberg Date: Sep 05 17:29 UTC Short link

My version:"St. Paul should never agree to host another event of this
kind again."
Mike Schoenberg
MacGroveland

David Titus wrote:
> My version:  "St. Paul should never agree to host another event of this kind
> again without an absolute commitment..." by the criminals to not bring
knives, 9mm semi-auto handguns, spikes, bags of urine and feces, build bombs
and spears to harm mounted units, break windows and benches, bash squad cars w/
garbage cans, assault officers and law obeying protesters, use violence to halt
others' free speech and hide their identity while committing such criminal and
oppressive activities.

From: Chip Peterson Date: Sep 05 17:37 UTC Short link

Mr. Titus misses the point.  When hooligans misbehave in ways like he
describes, they can and should be arrested, their identities
established, and justice pursued. But if police misbehave, what
recourse is available unless there is some way to identify them?

Chip Peterson
Mac Groveland

From: Chris Rybisky Date: Sep 05 18:16 UTC Short link

Whoa whoa whoa...police misbehave? (tongue firmly in cheek)

My mom used to be a lieutenant in charge of internal affairs for a law
enforcement agency and I know that she used to be pretty busy.

We all screw up. Mr. Peterson, I agree with you. NO ONE is above the
law. When we were downtown the other day and there were people dressed
in all black with no patches or markings to identify the agency it
scared the crap out of me. When these people cannot be identified (and
I realize there were people in the protest crowd wearing masks) it
becomes that much harder to hold them accountable for their actions.

Heck, look at the SPIF. We all are identified.

Chris Rybisky
Cathedral Hill

On 9/5/08, Chip Peterson <c-pete@umn.edu> wrote:
> Mr. Titus misses the point.  When hooligans misbehave in ways like he
>  describes, they can and should be arrested, their identities
>  established, and justice pursued. But if police misbehave, what
>  recourse is available unless there is some way to identify them?
>
>  Chip Peterson
>  Mac Groveland
>
>
>
>  On Sep 5, 2008, at 12:15 PM, David Titus wrote:
>
>  > Mr. Peterson writes: "Whatever the range of different
>  > interpretations about what happened
>  > over the past few days, I would hope everyone can agree on one thing:
>  > that St. Paul should never agree to host another event of this kind
>  > again without an absolute commitment that all uniformed law
>  > enforcement officials will be clearly identified by name and
>  > jurisdiction."
>  >
>  > My version:  "St. Paul should never agree to host another event of
>  > this kind
>  > again without an absolute commitment..." by the criminals to not
>  > bring knives, 9mm semi-auto handguns, spikes, bags of urine and
>  > feces, build bombs and spears to harm mounted units, break windows
>  > and benches, bash squad cars w/ garbage cans, assault officers and
>  > law obeying protesters, use violence to halt others' free speech and
>  > hide their identity while committing such criminal and oppressive
>  > activities.
>
>
> Chip Peterson
>  Macalester-Groveland, St. Paul
>
> Info about Chip Peterson: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/chippeterson
>
>  This topic's messages may be viewed at:
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>
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investigation to: <email obscured>
>

From: HINE Hine Date: Sep 05 19:28 UTC Short link

Chris is absolutely right.  We became downright friendly with the police
who were IDENTIFIABLE.  Some sat down with us and watched Blue Tube in
stunned disbelief  ("This is awful - it's awful because it's true."), some
donated money to us, and one even danced in the park when I played for him
"I Love A Man In A Uniform" (Gang of Four) at 84.99 dB.  The Philadelphian
cops were especially brotherly.  And I still have not heard one bad thing
about the SPPD.  (In fact, I called 911 on or about Sat 30 Aug 08 when the
neighbor's bike was stolen before my eyes, and damned if they didn't catch
one of the little rotters 5 minutes later.  Very impressive considering
the "ramp up" at the time.)

Then there were the masked anarchists and the Unknown Soldiers, including
our own Sheriff in khakis and a polo shirt.  He hid in plain sight, a
half-mile out of harm's way.  Both sides scared the bejeebers out of each
other, not to mention the poor horses and those of us who were wondering
how many innocent people can fit inside a truck-mounted TV studio.

As Chris alludes, it's easy to slam people with words or batons, or to
spray people with urine or tear gas, if no one knows who you are; if no
one can hold you accountable for your actions; if no one even knows what
state of the union you're from.  It was very much like a miniature,
homegrown Bush's War - a few misdirected, crazed fanatics caused a
ridiculous, over-the-top, and illegal response from men who appear to have
taken multiple testerone injections and who then took out their
aggressions on innocent women and children.   Yes, children were taken to
the hospital for tear gas treatment.  Meanwhile, all the other towns think
we're all out of our minds.

I hope they put all that riot gear on eBay, because I want my money back.
Fifty million dollars spent on making us look like the most uncivilized
country on earth.   How embarrassing.

Fortunately I met at least four score extremely great people, and made
only 3 enemies.  Apparently expressing gratitude to and respect for over
4,145 soldiers killed unjustly is un-American, and therefore I must be a
Communist.  The ignorance, denial, greed, fear, hate, and selfishness -
the real enemies of the state -  make me ill.

But I do have some very positive stories to tell some day:  Parks & Rec,
CAAPB staff, Pappas, Capitol, legal eaglets, Thune/Council/Mayoral Staff,
locals, legal observers, bloggers, artists, donors, moral supporters,
Rowleys, NYC, musicians, volunteers, passers-by, comedians, youth, the
aged, journalists, spouse, old friends, truck guys, dogs, protective
flasks, meetings, iTunes, movie makers, producers, photographers,
patriots, ...

AMH


Andrew M. Hine
3M IATD
Industrial Adhesives & Tapes Division
3M Center 230-1F-35
St. Paul MN
55144-1000
USA

<email obscured>
Tel:   (651) 733-1070
Fax:  (651) 737-2003




"Chris Rybisky" <atkuku@gmail.com>
09/05/2008 01:18 PM

To
"Chip Peterson" <c-pete@umn.edu>
cc
"St. Paul Issues Forum" <stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
Subject
Re: [SPIF] Standoff at Capitol






Whoa whoa whoa...police misbehave? (tongue firmly in cheek)

My mom used to be a lieutenant in charge of internal affairs for a law
enforcement agency and I know that she used to be pretty busy.

We all screw up. Mr. Peterson, I agree with you. NO ONE is above the
law. When we were downtown the other day and there were people dressed
in all black with no patches or markings to identify the agency it
scared the crap out of me. When these people cannot be identified (and
I realize there were people in the protest crowd wearing masks) it
becomes that much harder to hold them accountable for their actions.

Heck, look at the SPIF. We all are identified.

Chris Rybisky
Cathedral Hill

On 9/5/08, Chip Peterson <c-pete@umn.edu> wrote:
> Mr. Titus misses the point.  When hooligans misbehave in ways like he
>  describes, they can and should be arrested, their identities
>  established, and justice pursued. But if police misbehave, what
>  recourse is available unless there is some way to identify them?
>
>  Chip Peterson
>  Mac Groveland
>
>
>
>  On Sep 5, 2008, at 12:15 PM, David Titus wrote:
>
>  > Mr. Peterson writes: "Whatever the range of different
>  > interpretations about what happened
>  > over the past few days, I would hope everyone can agree on one thing:
>  > that St. Paul should never agree to host another event of this kind
>  > again without an absolute commitment that all uniformed law
>  > enforcement officials will be clearly identified by name and
>  > jurisdiction."
>  >
>  > My version:  "St. Paul should never agree to host another event of
>  > this kind
>  > again without an absolute commitment..." by the criminals to not
>  > bring knives, 9mm semi-auto handguns, spikes, bags of urine and
>  > feces, build bombs and spears to harm mounted units, break windows
>  > and benches, bash squad cars w/ garbage cans, assault officers and
>  > law obeying protesters, use violence to halt others' free speech and
>  > hide their identity while committing such criminal and oppressive
>  > activities.
>
>
> Chip Peterson
>  Macalester-Groveland, St. Paul
>
> Info about Chip Peterson: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/chippeterson
>
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Chris Rybisky
Cathedral Hill, Saint Paul
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From: Chris Rybisky Date: Sep 05 20:46 UTC Short link

Yeah, the SPPD were very friendly, they said "hi" and waved as we went
by and even commented on my son's toy car and the Philly guys always
seemed to be shooting the breeze with somebody...it's those unmarked
people that had us worried.

Chris Rybisky
Cathedral Hill

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:28 PM,  <amhine2@mmm.com> wrote:
>
> Chris is absolutely right.  We became downright friendly with the police who
> were IDENTIFIABLE.  Some sat down with us and watched Blue Tube in stunned
> disbelief  ("This is awful - it's awful because it's true."), some donated
> money to us, and one even danced in the park when I played for him "I Love A
> Man In A Uniform" (Gang of Four) at 84.99 dB.  The Philadelphian cops were
> especially brotherly.  And I still have not heard one bad thing about the
> SPPD.  (In fact, I called 911 on or about Sat 30 Aug 08 when the neighbor's
> bike was stolen before my eyes, and damned if they didn't catch one of the
> little rotters 5 minutes later.  Very impressive considering the "ramp up"
> at the time.)
>
> Then there were the masked anarchists and the Unknown Soldiers, including
> our own Sheriff in khakis and a polo shirt.  He hid in plain sight, a
> half-mile out of harm's way.  Both sides scared the bejeebers out of each
> other, not to mention the poor horses and those of us who were wondering how
> many innocent people can fit inside a truck-mounted TV studio.
>
> As Chris alludes, it's easy to slam people with words or batons, or to spray
> people with urine or tear gas, if no one knows who you are; if no one can
> hold you accountable for your actions; if no one even knows what state of
> the union you're from.  It was very much like a miniature, homegrown Bush's
> War - a few misdirected, crazed fanatics caused a ridiculous, over-the-top,
> and illegal response from men who appear to have taken multiple testerone
> injections and who then took out their aggressions on innocent women and
> children.   Yes, children were taken to the hospital for tear gas treatment.
>  Meanwhile, all the other towns think we're all out of our minds.
>
> I hope they put all that riot gear on eBay, because I want my money back.
>  Fifty million dollars spent on making us look like the most uncivilized
> country on earth.   How embarrassing.
>
> Fortunately I met at least four score extremely great people, and made only
> 3 enemies.  Apparently expressing gratitude to and respect for over 4,145
> soldiers killed unjustly is un-American, and therefore I must be a
> Communist.  The ignorance, denial, greed, fear, hate, and selfishness - the
> real enemies of the state -  make me ill.
>
> But I do have some very positive stories to tell some day:  Parks & Rec,
> CAAPB staff, Pappas, Capitol, legal eaglets, Thune/Council/Mayoral Staff,
> locals, legal observers, bloggers, artists, donors, moral supporters,
> Rowleys, NYC, musicians, volunteers, passers-by, comedians, youth, the aged,
> journalists, spouse, old friends, truck guys, dogs, protective flasks,
> meetings, iTunes, movie makers, producers, photographers, patriots, ...
>
> AMH
>
>
> Andrew M. Hine
> 3M IATD
> Industrial Adhesives & Tapes Division
> 3M Center 230-1F-35
> St. Paul MN
> 55144-1000
> USA
>
> <email obscured>
> Tel:   (651) 733-1070
> Fax:  (651) 737-2003
>
>
>
> "Chris Rybisky" <atkuku@gmail.com>
>
> 09/05/2008 01:18 PM
>
> To
> "Chip Peterson" <c-pete@umn.edu>
> cc
> "St. Paul Issues Forum" <stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
> Subject
> Re: [SPIF] Standoff at Capitol
>
>
>
>
> Whoa whoa whoa...police misbehave? (tongue firmly in cheek)
>
> My mom used to be a lieutenant in charge of internal affairs for a law
> enforcement agency and I know that she used to be pretty busy.
>
> We all screw up. Mr. Peterson, I agree with you. NO ONE is above the
> law. When we were downtown the other day and there were people dressed
> in all black with no patches or markings to identify the agency it
> scared the crap out of me. When these people cannot be identified (and
> I realize there were people in the protest crowd wearing masks) it
> becomes that much harder to hold them accountable for their actions.
>
> Heck, look at the SPIF. We all are identified.
>
> Chris Rybisky
> Cathedral Hill
>
> On 9/5/08, Chip Peterson <c-pete@umn.edu> wrote:
>> Mr. Titus misses the point.  When hooligans misbehave in ways like he
>>  describes, they can and should be arrested, their identities
>>  established, and justice pursued. But if police misbehave, what
>>  recourse is available unless there is some way to identify them?
>>
>>  Chip Peterson
>>  Mac Groveland
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Sep 5, 2008, at 12:15 PM, David Titus wrote:
>>
>>  > Mr. Peterson writes: "Whatever the range of different
>>  > interpretations about what happened
>>  > over the past few days, I would hope everyone can agree on one thing:
>>  > that St. Paul should never agree to host another event of this kind
>>  > again without an absolute commitment that all uniformed law
>>  > enforcement officials will be clearly identified by name and
>>  > jurisdiction."
>>  >
>>  > My version:  "St. Paul should never agree to host another event of
>>  > this kind
>>  > again without an absolute commitment..." by the criminals to not
>>  > bring knives, 9mm semi-auto handguns, spikes, bags of urine and
>>  > feces, build bombs and spears to harm mounted units, break windows
>>  > and benches, bash squad cars w/ garbage cans, assault officers and
>>  > law obeying protesters, use violence to halt others' free speech and
>>  > hide their identity while committing such criminal and oppressive
>>  > activities.
>>
>>
>> Chip Peterson
>>  Macalester-Groveland, St. Paul
>>
>> Info about Chip Peterson:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/chippeterson
>>
>>  This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2qKBjnQSU0lac9L9C04hj7
>>
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>>
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>>
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>> investigation to: <email obscured>
>>
>
> Chris Rybisky
> Cathedral Hill, Saint Paul
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>
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From: Mike Fratto Date: Sep 05 22:12 UTC Short link

Mr. Titus, the job you and your brothers and sisters in law enforcement is
potentially dangerous every day. Special Security events like the RNC raises
the probability of danger. I wouldn't want the job.

I am not aware any of the items you mentioned were found among those arrested.
I know some of these items were found in raids conducted by the Sheriff's
office. Yet you needed to be prepared for them. Nothing you list except the
semi-automatic and possibly the knives would have caused serious injury. All of
the officers in direct conflict were well protected in riot suits.

On the other hand the batons and mace freely and indiscriminately wielded
caused harm every person who it struck/ To my knowledge none of the protesters
wore much protective gear beyond scarves to protect themselves from mace.

You, however, are trained to deal with situations without over reacting. Yet
many of your brothers and sisters chased down people who were doing exactly
what they were asked to do. In more than a few situations they physically
attacked and arrested credentialed news people. Last night you even arrested a
couple who happened to come out of Sears after shopping. There was absolutely
no interest in separating protesters from regular citizens who happened to be
in public space. In last night's case the your brothers and sisters went far
beyond the area where protesters actually were.

This is unfortunate.

Mike Fratto
Payne Phalen


Please help those who don't get enough to eat.
http://oyh.org
http://hungersolutions.org

The future depends more on
what we do between now and then
Than what we did in the past.

--- On Fri, 9/5/08, David Titus <dtitus@sppdfederation.com> wrote:
From: David Titus <dtitus@sppdfederation.com>
Subject: Re: [SPIF] Standoff at Capitol
To: "St. Paul Issues Forum" <stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:15 PM

Mr. Peterson writes: "Whatever the range of different interpretations about
what happened
over the past few days, I would hope everyone can agree on one thing:
that St. Paul should never agree to host another event of this kind
again without an absolute commitment that all uniformed law
enforcement officials will be clearly identified by name and
jurisdiction."

My version:  "St. Paul should never agree to host another event of this
kind
again without an absolute commitment..." by the criminals to not bring
knives, 9mm semi-auto handguns, spikes, bags of urine and feces, build bombs
and
spears to harm mounted units, break windows and benches, bash squad cars w/
garbage cans, assault officers and law obeying protesters, use violence to halt
others' free speech and hide their identity while committing such criminal
and oppressive activities.

The Current information that I have is - Police Officer injuries were
fortunately minimal - thanks for asking.

David Titus
West Side, Saint Paul
Info about David Titus: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/davidtitus

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From: Charley Underwood Date: Sep 05 22:20 UTC