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There are 20 posts — by 11 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Tony Cook at May 03 18:36 UTC

From: Anthony Zacharzewski Date: Apr 28 20:33 UTC Short link

I’m doing some work with an organisation called the Democratic
Society, which exists to support participation and democracy. We have
been given a little funding by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, and are
going to use some of this money to stage a public discussion event in
Brighton and Hove in late spring/early summer.

I’d be really interested to hear from people on this list what sorts
of issues they would like to see discussed at such a meeting, and what
sort of format would appeal: a staged debate, a single speaker
followed by discussion, or something entirely different.

There are only a couple of rules. The Society is non-partisan so we
can’t stage debates or events that obviously promote a particular
political party. If we had Caroline Lucas, for instance, we’d need to
have balancing speakers. Second, we don’t have an enormous amount of
funding and we’d like to use it wisely so there’s enough for more
events later in the year.

Feel free to drop me a line off-list if you don't want to clutter up
the discussions here. You can check out the Democratic Society on our
website (http://www.demsoc.org).

From: Sue Paskins Date: Apr 29 07:52 UTC Short link

I would like to see a discussion on the new method of local govt that has
been forced on Brighton & Hove, and how local councillors of NOT just the
governing body (albeit a minority administation at present) are suposed to
have an input into the decisions that the council is now going to make.

It seems that an administration elected by under 50% of the residents in this
city, will make unoposed decisions with no input from any other party.

I do not raise this as a party political issue but as a democratic issue.

Sue Paskins

From:           	Anthony Zacharzewski <>
To:             	"BH@forums Issues Forum" <bh@forums.e-
democracy.org>
Subject:        	[BH-Issues] Request: What issue would you like to
hold a public discussion about?
Date sent:      	Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:27:27 +0100

I´m doing some work with an organisation called the Democratic
Society, which exists to support participation and democracy. We have
been given a little funding by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, and are
going to use some of this money to stage a public discussion event in
Brighton and Hove in late spring/early summer.

I´d be really interested to hear from people on this list what sorts
of issues they would like to see discussed at such a meeting, and what
sort of format would appeal: a staged debate, a single speaker
followed by discussion, or something entirely different.

There are only a couple of rules. The Society is non-partisan so we
can´t stage debates or events that obviously promote a particular
political party. If we had Caroline Lucas, for instance, we´d need to
have balancing speakers. Second, we don´t have an enormous amount of
funding and we´d like to use it wisely so there´s enough for more
events later in the year.

Feel free to drop me a line off-list if you don't want to clutter up
the discussions here. You can check out the Democratic Society on our
website (http://www.demsoc.org).

Thanks

Anthony
Anthony Zacharzewski

Info about Anthony Zacharzewski: http://forums.e-
democracy.org/contacts/anthonyzacharzewski

This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-
democracy.org/r/topic/3ObsimiwanaabvEDC9qeHk

From: Roy Pennington Date: Apr 29 08:26 UTC Short link

editorial policies of the argus

From: Dan Jellinek Date: Apr 29 08:53 UTC Short link

Hi Anthony,

Do the topics have to be locally focused?
Do they have to relate to the democratic process in some way?

I'd like to see something relating e-democracy/digital inclusion/free
wireless etc etc, if it is relevant. But not theoretical, something linked
to real problems of deprivation and social inclusion in brighton and hove.

cheers,
Dan.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Zacharzewski" <>
To: "BH@forums Issues Forum" <>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 9:27 PM
Subject: [BH-Issues] Request: What issue would you like to hold a public
discussion about?

I’m doing some work with an organisation called the Democratic
Society, which exists to support participation and democracy. We have
been given a little funding by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, and are
going to use some of this money to stage a public discussion event in
Brighton and Hove in late spring/early summer.

I’d be really interested to hear from people on this list what sorts
of issues they would like to see discussed at such a meeting, and what
sort of format would appeal: a staged debate, a single speaker
followed by discussion, or something entirely different.

There are only a couple of rules. The Society is non-partisan so we
can’t stage debates or events that obviously promote a particular
political party. If we had Caroline Lucas, for instance, we’d need to
have balancing speakers. Second, we don’t have an enormous amount of
funding and we’d like to use it wisely so there’s enough for more
events later in the year.

Feel free to drop me a line off-list if you don't want to clutter up
the discussions here. You can check out the Democratic Society on our
website (http://www.demsoc.org).

Thanks

Anthony
Anthony Zacharzewski

Info about Anthony Zacharzewski:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/anthonyzacharzewski

This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3ObsimiwanaabvEDC9qeHk
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From: Derek Parkinson Date: Apr 29 10:45 UTC Short link

Hi Anthony,

This is a bit general I'm afraid. I'd like to see something on how B&H
residents could become more involved in the big planning decisions for the
city. We get council stuff through the letterbox asking what we feel about
someone down the road building an extension etc. But what efforts are made
to involve residents in the big developments that radically change the city?
We read about new 'visions' etc for B&H, but whose vision is it?

Cheers,

Derek

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Anthony Zacharzewski <>
wrote:

From: Joyce Edmond-Smith Date: Apr 29 10:48 UTC Short link

Yes agree - but I think the issue is larger than that - it relates to the over
centralisation of our political system - the downgrading (not to say at times
contempt)
for Local Government - the lack of real power and autonomy for local government
- the
rise of quangoes, "community decision making etc. etc. , which are less
accountable and,
usually less efficient than good local government - the crisis of financing
local
government and of finding a fair funding system, which every Government has
irresponsibly shied away from (at the same time as loading more and more things
on to LG
and then blaming them for "over spending) - The way central Government and the
media see
local government simply as a managing agency for central government etc. etc.

  All this leads to disaffection with local government from the very people it
should be
serving .

On a different tack , I would also like to see a discussion on voting systems
and
proportional representation - don't think it would be a pancea, but might move
us off
the constitutional crisis and democratic stalemate we are in presently.

Joyce


---  wrote:

> I would like to see a discussion on the new method of local govt that has
> been forced on Brighton & Hove, and how local councillors of NOT just the
> governing body (albeit a minority administation at present) are suposed to
> have an input into the decisions that the council is now going to make.
>
> It seems that an administration elected by under 50% of the residents in this
> city, will make unoposed decisions with no input from any other party.
>
> I do not raise this as a party political issue but as a democratic issue.
>
> Sue Paskins
>
> From:           	Anthony Zacharzewski <>
> To:             	"BH@forums Issues Forum" <bh@forums.e-
> democracy.org>
> Subject:        	[BH-Issues] Request: What issue would you like to
> hold a public discussion about?
> Date sent:      	Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:27:27 +0100
>
> I´m doing some work with an organisation called the Democratic
> Society, which exists to support participation and democracy. We have
> been given a little funding by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, and are
> going to use some of this money to stage a public discussion event in
> Brighton and Hove in late spring/early summer.
>
> I´d be really interested to hear from people on this list what sorts
> of issues they would like to see discussed at such a meeting, and what
> sort of format would appeal: a staged debate, a single speaker
> followed by discussion, or something entirely different.
>
> There are only a couple of rules. The Society is non-partisan so we
> can´t stage debates or events that obviously promote a particular
> political party. If we had Caroline Lucas, for instance, we´d need to
> have balancing speakers. Second, we don´t have an enormous amount of
> funding and we´d like to use it wisely so there´s enough for more
> events later in the year.
>
> Feel free to drop me a line off-list if you don't want to clutter up
> the discussions here. You can check out the Democratic Society on our
> website (http://www.demsoc.org).
>
> Thanks
>
> Anthony
> Anthony Zacharzewski
>
> Info about Anthony Zacharzewski: http://forums.e-
> democracy.org/contacts/anthonyzacharzewski
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-
> democracy.org/r/topic/3ObsimiwanaabvEDC9qeHk
> -----------------------------------------
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>   To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
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>
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>
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>
>
>
> Sue Paskins
>
> Info about Sue Paskins: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/suepaskins
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/58odx7xSc8Jvyn0jXwTHet
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>


Joyce Edmond-Smith


      __________________________________________________________
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From: Tom Coady Date: Apr 29 10:57 UTC Short link

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Joyce Edmond-Smith <
> wrote:

> usually less efficient than good local government - the crisis of
> financing local
> government and of finding a fair funding system, which every Government
> has
> irresponsibly shied away from


What's wrong with local income tax?

From: Rachel Fryer Date: Apr 29 11:22 UTC Short link

Local Income Tax?

Sadly, the richest people are often the best at dodging income tax so they
could benefit from having this as a local tax.

It could be difficult to administer and could mean local authorities with
wealthy people would get more money (although I'm sure a system for redressing
this balance could be worked out).

Also it makes sense to tax people according to their wealth / property to some
extent and it is good to discourage people living in large houses they've
inherited (for example) if they live on their own.

Rachel



> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:57:03 +0100
> From: 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Request: What issue would you like to hold a public
discussion about?

From: Tom Coady Date: Apr 29 11:33 UTC Short link

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 12:22 PM, rachel fryer <>
wrote:

> Local Income Tax?
> Sadly, the richest people are often the best at dodging income tax so they
> could benefit from having this as a local tax.
>

But the status quo is almost a loophole by default as the maximum is only
about 4 x the minimum.

> It could be difficult to administer and could mean local authorities with
> wealthy people would get more money (although I'm sure a system for
> redressing this balance could be worked out).
>

Same as poll tax then ;-)

Also it makes sense to tax people according to their wealth / property to
> some extent and it is good to discourage people living in large houses
> they've inherited (for example) if they live on their own.
>

So that's +1 for LIT then? Oh I see well if that was policy you'd abolish
single occupancy discount? The wealth tax should be determined with
inheritance tax, but for some reason people think inheritance is sacred. Not
I.

From: Joyce Edmond-Smith Date: Apr 29 11:39 UTC Short link

Local Income Tax ? Better rating system ? there are arguments for both - that
is exactly
why we need a debate - but it is not just about the how, it is also about the
what ...
At the present Local Government gets most of its spending from Government
grants which
are tied to what the Government wants done , thereby leaving very little leeway
for any
local decision making. What about a power for Local Authorities to raise their
own
"extra" taxes - as is done in other countries of Europe .... Yes controversial
but
people could vote out a party that brought it in if they did not like it.  I
for one
would argue for a dog licensing scheme - hypothecated to spend on dog welfare
and
cleaning up, there could be dispensations for guide dogs and hearing maid dogs
etc.
That would lighten the load and allow spending on other more general things.
What about
allowing local government to raise its own capital instead of forcing it to go
to the
private sector in PFI's - At the present if any large scale capital expenditure
happens
in B&H it has to rely on the private sector to underwrite it - hence we get
what we
don't want (supermarkets ????)



--- rachel fryer <> wrote:

> Local Income Tax?
>
> Sadly, the richest people are often the best at dodging income tax so they
could
> benefit from having this as a local tax.
>
> It could be difficult to administer and could mean local authorities with
wealthy
> people would get more money (although I'm sure a system for redressing this
balance
> could be worked out).
>
> Also it makes sense to tax people according to their wealth / property to
some extent
> and it is good to discourage people living in large houses they've inherited
(for
> example) if they live on their own.
>
> Rachel
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:57:03 +0100
> > From: 
> > To: 
> > Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Request: What issue would you like to hold a
public
> discussion about?
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Joyce Edmond-Smith <
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > usually less efficient than good local government - the crisis of
> > > financing local
> > > government and of finding a fair funding system, which every Government
> > > has
> > > irresponsibly shied away from
> >
> >
> > What's wrong with local income tax?
> >
> > Tom Coady
> > Regency, Brighton
> > Info about Tom Coady: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tomcoady
> >
> > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/13QKjQgOfgd0VexqoKGV6x
> > -----------------------------------------
> >   To post, send your message to: 
> >   To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> >   in subject line and send to: 
> >
> >   More info about Brighton &amp; Hove Issues Forum:
> >   http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
> >
> >   E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Be a superhero and win! Play the Iron Man Mashup Game
> http://www.ironmanmashup.co.uk
> Rachel Fryer
>
> Info about Rachel Fryer: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/rachelfryer
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5D39cYwVrhziP4L7KHOnnS
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>


Joyce Edmond-Smith


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From: Chris Todd Date: Apr 30 08:11 UTC Short link

I would certainly like to see some work on proportional representation and
how the current voting system is disenfranchising people.  I live in a
strong Labour ward so unless you vote Labour your vote counts for nothing.
Equally, if I lived in Withdean ditto with the Tories and probably the same
for the Greens in North Laine and St Peters.

While I agree with Joyce that proportional representation is not a panacea,
the current voting system cannot be helping engaging more people with local
politics.  On a moral level it also seems much fairer that greater account
is taken of people's views when deciding the political makeup of the
Council, rather than those views being swept aside because they are not in
the majority as thrown up by the current voting system, which actually only
relates to a very small proportion of the local population in any case.

People also often talk about devolving power down to a local level and this
is often bandied around as the cure of all ills for local democracy but I
would like some dicussion around this as I don't necessarily agree.  There
are some issues, environmental pollution being one of them, where devolving
unfettered power down to a local level could be a disaster.  So whatever
happens there are going to have to be some guidelines or restraints on
devolved power which will be seen by some as undermining the power of local
people to determine their own destiny.

Chris Todd

From: Tony Cook Date: Apr 30 13:25 UTC Short link

Rather than focus upon a specific issue I'd like to discuss the
overall health of local democracy in general; with particular
reference to the antipathetic role of political parties. The tail
should no longer be wagging the dog.

I would like to hear arguements for (or against) the establishment of
neighbourhood councils constituted at Ward level, nominating local
candidates to stand as Councillors delegated by and held accountable
to their local communities.

These citizens may have political affiliations - it's a free country
after all -  but their first loyalty as community advocates should be
to the democratic will of their constituents not to the dictak of
their party hierarchies.

Tony C

From: Keith Taylor Date: Apr 30 14:02 UTC Short link

I think that we could do a  lot worse than consult the Power Commission
results if we want to consider issues of democracy. Led by Helena Kennedy,
this Joseph Rowntree funded independent inquiry pondered many of the
issues discussed in this thread.

Its conclusions are well worth reading http://www.makeitanissue.org.uk/

One of the main findings was that the way the British do politics is
killing politics

In a microcosm of the national scene, just last week on the Council an
alliance of Labour & Tory councillors voted themselves through fat extra
allowances - against the independent recommendations of as review panel,
and against government guidelines - and they wonder why people lose faith
in the political process!

Greens, as you would expect, voted against these proposals.

Keith Taylor


PS If people want Caroline Lucas to speak at the meeting I'm sure that can
be arranged.


City Councillor for St Peters & North Laine Ward
Convenor of Green Councillors Group
tel/fax 01273 291165







"Tony Cook" <>
Sent by:

30/04/2008 14:24

 To:    "BH@forums Issues Forum" <>
 cc:
 Subject:       Re: [BH-Issues] Request: What issue would you like to hold
a public discussion about?


Rather than focus upon a specific issue I'd like to discuss the
overall health of local democracy in general; with particular
reference to the antipathetic role of political parties. The tail
should no longer be wagging the dog.

I would like to hear arguements for (or against) the establishment of
neighbourhood councils constituted at Ward level, nominating local
candidates to stand as Councillors delegated by and held accountable
to their local communities.

These citizens may have political affiliations - it's a free country
after all -  but their first loyalty as community advocates should be
to the democratic will of their constituents not to the dictak of
their party hierarchies.

Tony C

Tony Cook

Info about Tony Cook: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonycook

This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/40IAnnQ6XZCWokgiMu30Hx
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From: Roy Pennington Date: May 02 13:38 UTC Short link

given the disgraceful head-line yesterday, I do think the Argus need some
accountability

From: Roy Pennington Date: May 02 17:35 UTC Short link

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/generalnews/display.var.2239169.0.dads_suicide_after_daughter_denied_school_place.php

front page headline 'SUICIDE? IF YOU WERE SERIOUS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE IT BY
NOW'
full story is slightly different spin

From: Tony Cook Date: May 02 19:19 UTC Short link

With respect to Keith and the Greens I'm unclear as to whether this
observation is support for my suggested topic or a criticism.

>
> In a microcosm of the national scene, just last week on the Council an
> alliance of Labour & Tory councillors voted themselves through fat extra
> allowances - against the independent recommendations of as review panel, and
> against government guidelines - and they wonder why people lose faith in the
> political process!
>
> Greens, as you would expect, voted against these proposals.
>

Would this be saying the need for Neighbourhood Councils is a
redundant idea since all we need do is vote Green and we're sorted?

Let's suppose this outrageous vote can be justified - perhaps excused
as encouraging a better quality of candidate to stand for political
office. An unlikely motivation I know, but if argued convincingly it
would then beg the question as to how we bring our Green Councillors
to account - vote Labour, Liberal or Tory instead?

As you rightly point out, people have lost faith in the political
process. I would suggest that the dismal 36% turnout in yesterdays
ratification of the current electoral system - 64% abstaining  -
doesn't auger well for democracy. That a system whereby local
politicians are held accountable to their constituents rather than to
their party machinery (between elections) might help to redress the
democratic deficit.

Tony C

From: Roy Pennington Date: May 02 22:05 UTC Short link

argus,  may 1st front page -- about a man who suicided (himself) because the
council would not give his kid a particular school place --
and why have the argus not bothered to whip up a mayoral frenzy?

From: Keith Taylor Date: May 02 23:11 UTC Short link

Dear Tony

Of course, without the Greens you may well never have heard a!out the cosy
back-scratching of the spot-the-difference Labour + Tory parties when they
voted themselves huge increases.

If something needs reporting we'll treport it!

Green politics is about trying to get people closer to local decision making,
and holding politicians to account for their actions.

We support neighbourhood fora with delegated authority on planning and
licensing decisions. We've also tried to introduce a form of participatory
budgeting, but Labour and Tories voted it down.

I think the job of local politics includes informing and empowering the
communities they serve.

Hope that answers your point, if in doubt check out our local election
manifesto on www.brightonandhovegreenparty.org.uk

Come to think of, check it out anyway!

Regards
Keith Taylor
Keith Taylor
City Councillor for St Peter's & North Laine Ward
Convenor of the Green Councillor Group
Tel/Fax (01273) 291165

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Cook" []
Sent: 02/05/2008 20:19
To: "" <>
Cc: "BH@forums Issues Forum" <>
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Request: What issue would you like to hold a public
discussion about?

With respect to Keith and the Greens I'm unclear as to whether this
observation is support for my suggested topic or a criticism.

>
> In a microcosm of the national scene, just last week on the Council an
> alliance of Labour & Tory councillors voted themselves through fat extra
> allowances - against the independent recommendations of as review panel, and
> against government guidelines - and they wonder why people lose faith in the
> political process!
>
> Greens, as you would expect, voted against these proposals.
>

Would this be saying the need for Neighbourhood Councils is a
redundant idea since all we need do is vote Green and we're sorted?

Let's suppose this outrageous vote can be justified - perhaps excused
as encouraging a better quality of candidate to stand for political
office. An unlikely motivation I know, but if argued convincingly it
would then beg the question as to how we bring our Green Councillors
to account - vote Labour, Liberal or Tory instead?

As you rightly point out, people have lost faith in the political
process. I would suggest that the dismal 36% turnout in yesterdays
ratification of the current electoral system - 64% abstaining  -
doesn't auger well for democracy. That a system whereby local
politicians are held accountable to their constituents rather than to
their party machinery (between elections) might help to redress the
democratic deficit.

Tony C

Tony Cook

Info about Tony Cook: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonycook

This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3ml18cX43ojy7Bb72fES6U
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From: Joyce Edmond-Smith Date: May 03 15:22 UTC Short link

Didn't see you "reporting" the fact that the political parties (and that
includes
Labour, Conservatives and Greens) are happy for Council tax payers to pay for
their
political advisers to the tune of circa £250 p.a Keith .....


---  wrote:

> Dear Tony
>
> Of course, without the Greens you may well never have heard a!out the cosy
> back-scratching of the spot-the-difference Labour + Tory parties when they
voted
> themselves huge increases.
>
> If something needs reporting we'll treport it!
>
> Green politics is about trying to get people closer to local decision making,
and
> holding politicians to account for their actions.
>
> We support neighbourhood fora with delegated authority on planning and
licensing
> decisions. We've also tried to introduce a form of participatory budgeting,
but Labour
> and Tories voted it down.
>
> I think the job of local politics includes informing and empowering the
communities
> they serve.
>
> Hope that answers your point, if in doubt check out our local election
manifesto on
> www.brightonandhovegreenparty.org.uk
>
> Come to think of, check it out anyway!
>
> Regards
> Keith Taylor
> Keith Taylor
> City Councillor for St Peter's & North Laine Ward
> Convenor of the Green Councillor Group
> Tel/Fax (01273) 291165
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Cook" []
> Sent: 02/05/2008 20:19
> To: "" <>
> Cc: "BH@forums Issues Forum" <>
> Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Request: What issue would you like to hold a public
> discussion about?
>
> With respect to Keith and the Greens I'm unclear as to whether this
> observation is support for my suggested topic or a criticism.
>
> >
> > In a microcosm of the national scene, just last week on the Council an
> > alliance of Labour & Tory councillors voted themselves through fat extra
> > allowances - against the independent recommendations of as review panel,
and
> > against government guidelines - and they wonder why people lose faith in
the
> > political process!
> >
> > Greens, as you would expect, voted against these proposals.
> >
>
> Would this be saying the need for Neighbourhood Councils is a
> redundant idea since all we need do is vote Green and we're sorted?
>
> Let's suppose this outrageous vote can be justified - perhaps excused
> as encouraging a better quality of candidate to stand for political
> office. An unlikely motivation I know, but if argued convincingly it
> would then beg the question as to how we bring our Green Councillors
> to account - vote Labour, Liberal or Tory instead?
>
> As you rightly point out, people have lost faith in the political
> process. I would suggest that the dismal 36% turnout in yesterdays
> ratification of the current electoral system - 64% abstaining  -
> doesn't auger well for democracy. That a system whereby local
> politicians are held accountable to their constituents rather than to
> their party machinery (between elections) might help to redress the
> democratic deficit.
>
> Tony C
>
> Tony Cook
>
> Info about Tony Cook: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonycook
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3ml18cX43ojy7Bb72fES6U
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Joyce Edmond-Smith


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From: Tony Cook Date: May 03 18:36 UTC Short link

I've been directed to the following quote from Thomas Paine:

"It is the nature and intention of a constitution to prevent governing
by party, by establishing a common principle that shall limit and
control the power and impulse of party, and that says to all parties,
thus far shalt thou go and no further. But in the absence of a
constitution, men look entirely to party; and instead of principle
governing party, party governs principle."

Perhaps the public discussion on democracy could be tied to next
year's commemoration of the bi-centennial of Thomas Paines's death? He
had local connections as a school master in Lewes.

Tony C

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