From:
tim fox
Date:
Jun 22 01:54 UTC
Short link
In response to the discussion of the relocation of our interstate bridge.
As a 42 year veteran of switching the C&NW / UP Railyard - I have to respond to
some of the suggestions. The UP Railroad owns a 15 track switch yard in the
west end of Winona and additional trackage that runs from west to east - from
the old Tower CK in the west end to Peerless Chain in the east end. The UP
switches some of the major industries in our good city - including Cenex
Harvest States, ADM, ADM Malting, Bay State, RTP, Modern Transport, and Winona
River & Rail. In addition the UP Yard serves as a transfer point for DME and
CPRS frieght.
The idea of crossing this railyard at Ewing ST. - in my opinion is not
feasible.
Crossing 15 tracks and a swamp at ground level or putting a overpass in is out
of the question.
Some of these ideas remind me of the Adolf Bremer proposals back in the early
70's - he wanted to move the CMSTP&P "down by the river" onto the CNW
property. He tried to persuade Congress and three major railroads that the
Milwaukee Road should relocate in our dear city. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe it
was the fact that his office was to close to the CMSTP's mainline.
There is a large amount of unused land from Olmstead to Huff to 2nd or 3rd.
Could this be utilized?
From:
Leslie Hittner
Date:
Jun 22 03:36 UTC
Short link
Thanks for the railroad perspective, Tim.
The secondary access could be designed to meet the bridge above
ground level - similar to what happens on I90 at Dresbach. That
would result in a complex aerial exchange (just like in the big
cities), but we know it can be done. I have no idea of the cost
but it would leave the railroad yard intact.
Sounds like the RR believes it trumps all other forms of
transportation. Perhaps it does... But I wonder, must all 15
tracks remain in that part of the yard? If we begin the
secondary access from Second Street (Forget about Ewing.), as
Tim seems to suggest, can the yard be reconfigured to
accommodate that access - especially if the curve off the west
end of Second Street "rises" to the bridge?
-Leslie Hittner
----- Original Message -----
From: "tim fox" <<email obscured>>
To: <<email obscured>>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 20:47
Subject: [Winona] railroad answers
> In response to the discussion of the relocation of our
interstate bridge.
> As a 42 year veteran of switching the C&NW / UP Railyard - I
have to respond to some of the suggestions. The UP Railroad owns
a 15 track switch yard in the west end of Winona and additional
trackage that runs from west to east - from the old Tower CK in
the west end to Peerless Chain in the east end. The UP switches
some of the major industries in our good city - including Cenex
Harvest States, ADM, ADM Malting, Bay State, RTP, Modern
Transport, and Winona River & Rail. In addition the UP Yard
serves as a transfer point for DME and CPRS frieght.
> The idea of crossing this railyard at Ewing ST. - in my
opinion is not feasible.
> Crossing 15 tracks and a swamp at ground level or putting a
overpass in is out of the question.
> Some of these ideas remind me of the Adolf Bremer proposals
back in the early 70's - he wanted to move the CMSTP&P "down by
the river" onto the CNW
> property. He tried to persuade Congress and three major
railroads that the Milwaukee Road should relocate in our dear
city. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe it was the fact that his office
was to close to the CMSTP's mainline.
> There is a large amount of unused land from Olmstead to Huff
to 2nd or 3rd. Could this be utilized?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> tim fox
> winona
> Info about tim fox:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/3B3edGmVeMNa5zV0qZYo7B
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7e0amRA5mxakZBVgCA447h
> -----------------------------------------
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6/21/2008 9:27 AM
From:
Paul Double
Date:
Jun 22 11:37 UTC
Short link
What seems to be the big hang up on Cummings as the tie in it is already a
truck route? Move it one block west and you connect to 61. I go back to an
earlier post on a connection somewhere from Riverview to Stone Street (City
Garage area) to Prairie Island Road. There was an illegal crossing we use
to use west of Cenex until they gated it. Then we used the gravel road that
parallels third past the city garage to come out on Prairie Island Road to
pick up Riverview.
Paul Double
-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Hittner [mailto:<email obscured>]
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 10:37 PM
To: <email obscured>; <email obscured>
Subject: Re: [Winona] railroad answers
Thanks for the railroad perspective, Tim.
The secondary access could be designed to meet the bridge above
ground level - similar to what happens on I90 at Dresbach. That
would result in a complex aerial exchange (just like in the big
cities), but we know it can be done. I have no idea of the cost
but it would leave the railroad yard intact.
Sounds like the RR believes it trumps all other forms of
transportation. Perhaps it does... But I wonder, must all 15
tracks remain in that part of the yard? If we begin the
secondary access from Second Street (Forget about Ewing.), as
Tim seems to suggest, can the yard be reconfigured to
accommodate that access - especially if the curve off the west
end of Second Street "rises" to the bridge?
-Leslie Hittner
----- Original Message -----
From: "tim fox" <<email obscured>>
To: <<email obscured>>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 20:47
Subject: [Winona] railroad answers
> In response to the discussion of the relocation of our
interstate bridge.
> As a 42 year veteran of switching the C&NW / UP Railyard - I
have to respond to some of the suggestions. The UP Railroad owns
a 15 track switch yard in the west end of Winona and additional
trackage that runs from west to east - from the old Tower CK in
the west end to Peerless Chain in the east end. The UP switches
some of the major industries in our good city - including Cenex
Harvest States, ADM, ADM Malting, Bay State, RTP, Modern
Transport, and Winona River & Rail. In addition the UP Yard
serves as a transfer point for DME and CPRS frieght.
> The idea of crossing this railyard at Ewing ST. - in my
opinion is not feasible.
> Crossing 15 tracks and a swamp at ground level or putting a
overpass in is out of the question.
> Some of these ideas remind me of the Adolf Bremer proposals
back in the early 70's - he wanted to move the CMSTP&P "down by
the river" onto the CNW
> property. He tried to persuade Congress and three major
railroads that the Milwaukee Road should relocate in our dear
city. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe it was the fact that his office
was to close to the CMSTP's mainline.
> There is a large amount of unused land from Olmstead to Huff
to 2nd or 3rd. Could this be utilized?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> tim fox
> winona
> Info about tim fox:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/3B3edGmVeMNa5zV0qZYo7B
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7e0amRA5mxakZBVgCA447h
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest
on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
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>
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> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at
http://OnlineGroups.Net
----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1512 - Release Date:
6/21/2008 9:27 AM
Les Hittner
Info about Leslie Hittner:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/2VnBuSDEUMqnsFLSSoUeJ
This topic's messages may be viewed at:
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-----------------------------------------
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From:
Leslie Hittner
Date:
Jun 22 12:07 UTC
Short link
Paul,
Are you advocating Cummings rather than Pelzer as a thru-route
from the bridge to 61 or as an alternate route to "downtown"
Winona? I guess I don't understand where Cummings (or Vila)
comes into the bridge picture. Pelzer via Riverview - a
thru-street with higher speed limits - seems the obvious choice
to me for moving thru-traffic over the bridge.
I'm not sure it's wise to move the in-city truck route to Vila
right through the middle of the Cotter/St. Theresa campus area.
-Leslie Hittner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Double" <<email obscured>>
To: <<email obscured>>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 06:39
Subject: Re: [Winona] railroad answers
> What seems to be the big hang up on Cummings as the tie in it
is already a
> truck route? Move it one block west and you connect to 61. I
go back to an
> earlier post on a connection somewhere from Riverview to Stone
Street (City
> Garage area) to Prairie Island Road. There was an illegal
crossing we use
> to use west of Cenex until they gated it. Then we used the
gravel road that
> parallels third past the city garage to come out on Prairie
Island Road to
> pick up Riverview.
>
> Paul Double
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leslie Hittner [mailto:<email obscured>]
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 10:37 PM
> To: <email obscured>; <email obscured>
> Subject: Re: [Winona] railroad answers
>
> Thanks for the railroad perspective, Tim.
>
> The secondary access could be designed to meet the bridge
above
> ground level - similar to what happens on I90 at Dresbach.
That
> would result in a complex aerial exchange (just like in the
big
> cities), but we know it can be done. I have no idea of the
cost
> but it would leave the railroad yard intact.
>
> Sounds like the RR believes it trumps all other forms of
> transportation. Perhaps it does... But I wonder, must all 15
> tracks remain in that part of the yard? If we begin the
> secondary access from Second Street (Forget about Ewing.), as
> Tim seems to suggest, can the yard be reconfigured to
> accommodate that access - especially if the curve off the west
> end of Second Street "rises" to the bridge?
>
> -Leslie Hittner
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tim fox" <<email obscured>>
> To: <<email obscured>>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 20:47
> Subject: [Winona] railroad answers
>
>
> > In response to the discussion of the relocation of our
> interstate bridge.
> > As a 42 year veteran of switching the C&NW / UP Railyard - I
> have to respond to some of the suggestions. The UP Railroad
owns
> a 15 track switch yard in the west end of Winona and
additional
> trackage that runs from west to east - from the old Tower CK
in
> the west end to Peerless Chain in the east end. The UP
switches
> some of the major industries in our good city - including
Cenex
> Harvest States, ADM, ADM Malting, Bay State, RTP, Modern
> Transport, and Winona River & Rail. In addition the UP Yard
> serves as a transfer point for DME and CPRS frieght.
> > The idea of crossing this railyard at Ewing ST. - in my
> opinion is not feasible.
> > Crossing 15 tracks and a swamp at ground level or putting a
> overpass in is out of the question.
> > Some of these ideas remind me of the Adolf Bremer
proposals
> back in the early 70's - he wanted to move the CMSTP&P "down
by
> the river" onto the CNW
> > property. He tried to persuade Congress and three major
> railroads that the Milwaukee Road should relocate in our dear
> city. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe it was the fact that his office
> was to close to the CMSTP's mainline.
> > There is a large amount of unused land from Olmstead to
Huff
> to 2nd or 3rd. Could this be utilized?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > tim fox
> > winona
> > Info about tim fox:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/3B3edGmVeMNa5zV0qZYo7B
> >
> > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7e0amRA5mxakZBVgCA447h
> > -----------------------------------------
> > To post, send your message to:
<email obscured>
> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or
"digest
> on,"
> > in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
> >
> > More info about Winona Online Democracy:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/winona
> >
> > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at
> http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1512 - Release
Date:
> 6/21/2008 9:27 AM
>
>
> Les Hittner
>
> Info about Leslie Hittner:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/2VnBuSDEUMqnsFLSSoUeJ
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/46qnfmfcBeQpSfDXEDwt76
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> -----------------------------------------
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>
>
>
> Paul Double
>
> Info about Paul Double:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/pauldouble
>
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http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6N9iAt1N2AUROy8NNCoSre
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Checked by AVG.
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From:
Paul Double
Date:
Jun 23 13:40 UTC
Short link
Les
Truck traffic needing to connect with 43 or 61 South or the east end
industrial park(s) coming in or going to Wisconsin need not drive to Pelzer.
Vilas is wide enough to handle truck and while Cummings is currently a truck
route it also runs along the Cotter buildings. We spent a lot of money
rebuilding Vilas why not use it and during the night it would affect fewer
residential homes. We also have a traffic light at 61 in place (not a cheap
item) and if K-Mart goes it would be logical to have a car/truck dealership
take over that parcel of land/building.
I also think the more we can use the land from Riverview to Prairie Island
Road to 3rd Street to Stone the less people and property would need to be
purchased to facilitate a plan to provide a smooth and efficient flow of
truck traffic. Moving cars is easy to accomplish.
Paul Double
-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Hittner [mailto:<email obscured>]
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 7:09 AM
Paul,
Are you advocating Cummings rather than Pelzer as a thru-route
from the bridge to 61 or as an alternate route to "downtown"
Winona? I guess I don't understand where Cummings (or Vila)
comes into the bridge picture. Pelzer via Riverview - a
thru-street with higher speed limits - seems the obvious choice
to me for moving thru-traffic over the bridge.
I'm not sure it's wise to move the in-city truck route to Vila
right through the middle of the Cotter/St. Theresa campus area.
-Leslie Hittner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Double" <<email obscured>>
To: <<email obscured>>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 06:39
Subject: Re: [Winona] railroad answers
> What seems to be the big hang up on Cummings as the tie in it
is already a
> truck route? Move it one block west and you connect to 61. I
go back to an
> earlier post on a connection somewhere from Riverview to Stone
Street (City
> Garage area) to Prairie Island Road. There was an illegal
crossing we use
> to use west of Cenex until they gated it. Then we used the
gravel road that
> parallels third past the city garage to come out on Prairie
Island Road to
> pick up Riverview.
>
> Paul Double
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leslie Hittner [mailto:<email obscured>]
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 10:37 PM
> To: <email obscured>; <email obscured>
> Subject: Re: [Winona] railroad answers
>
> Thanks for the railroad perspective, Tim.
>
> The secondary access could be designed to meet the bridge
above
> ground level - similar to what happens on I90 at Dresbach.
That
> would result in a complex aerial exchange (just like in the
big
> cities), but we know it can be done. I have no idea of the
cost
> but it would leave the railroad yard intact.
>
> Sounds like the RR believes it trumps all other forms of
> transportation. Perhaps it does... But I wonder, must all 15
> tracks remain in that part of the yard? If we begin the
> secondary access from Second Street (Forget about Ewing.), as
> Tim seems to suggest, can the yard be reconfigured to
> accommodate that access - especially if the curve off the west
> end of Second Street "rises" to the bridge?
>
> -Leslie Hittner
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tim fox" <<email obscured>>
> To: <<email obscured>>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 20:47
> Subject: [Winona] railroad answers
>
>
> > In response to the discussion of the relocation of our
> interstate bridge.
> > As a 42 year veteran of switching the C&NW / UP Railyard - I
> have to respond to some of the suggestions. The UP Railroad
owns
> a 15 track switch yard in the west end of Winona and
additional
> trackage that runs from west to east - from the old Tower CK
in
> the west end to Peerless Chain in the east end. The UP
switches
> some of the major industries in our good city - including
Cenex
> Harvest States, ADM, ADM Malting, Bay State, RTP, Modern
> Transport, and Winona River & Rail. In addition the UP Yard
> serves as a transfer point for DME and CPRS frieght.
> > The idea of crossing this railyard at Ewing ST. - in my
> opinion is not feasible.
> > Crossing 15 tracks and a swamp at ground level or putting a
> overpass in is out of the question.
> > Some of these ideas remind me of the Adolf Bremer
proposals
> back in the early 70's - he wanted to move the CMSTP&P "down
by
> the river" onto the CNW
> > property. He tried to persuade Congress and three major
> railroads that the Milwaukee Road should relocate in our dear
> city. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe it was the fact that his office
> was to close to the CMSTP's mainline.
> > There is a large amount of unused land from Olmstead to
Huff
> to 2nd or 3rd. Could this be utilized?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > tim fox
> > winona
> > Info about tim fox:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/3B3edGmVeMNa5zV0qZYo7B
> >
> > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7e0amRA5mxakZBVgCA447h
> > -----------------------------------------
> > To post, send your message to:
<email obscured>
> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or
"digest
> on,"
> > in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
> >
> > More info about Winona Online Democracy:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/winona
> >
> > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at
> http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1512 - Release
Date:
> 6/21/2008 9:27 AM
>
>
> Les Hittner
>
> Info about Leslie Hittner:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/2VnBuSDEUMqnsFLSSoUeJ
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/46qnfmfcBeQpSfDXEDwt76
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>
>
>
> Paul Double
>
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http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/pauldouble
>
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Les Hittner
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