I like when companies release a list of plants that may close, and then sit
back and wait to see which city, or state or county comes up with the biggest
package of tax breaks. Let's see this for what it is, an attempt to extort as
much money as possible from us. Let's say thank you to Ford, and then say
goodbye, just like we should say the same to the Twins and Vikings. That 120
acres is worth way more to St.Paul as housing.
As I read the numbers, 2,000 jobs @$25 an hour = $104 million in payroll a
year.
Last I checked residential housing didn't employ folks beyond construction.
And the increased tax collection isn't going to add 2,000 city jobs paying
an average of $50,000 a year.
David Evertz
Highland Park
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tate Weston" <email obscured>>
To: "SPIF" <email obscured>>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 4:09 PM
Subject: [SPIF] Ford Extorting Public
>
> I like when companies release a list of plants that may close, and then
> sit back and wait to see which city, or state or county comes up with the
> biggest package of tax breaks. Let's see this for what it is, an attempt
> to extort as much money as possible from us. Let's say thank you to Ford,
> and then say goodbye, just like we should say the same to the Twins and
> Vikings. That 120 acres is worth way more to St.Paul as housing.
>
> Tate Weston
>
> More info: http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/westontate
>
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>
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>
I'm with Tate on this one. I understand the gravity of losing 4,500 good
paying jobs but ain't our system called capitlism. And doesn't it work like
this: you've got supply and demand. That dynamic creates the need for goods and
balances the market. When a company can no longer compete in the "market" and
its goods no longer have a healhty demand than they go away, they die. I find
it simply fascinating that our "republican" leaders (Swiggum made the clearest,
give 'em anything they ask for" statement yesterday), who normally espouse the
market system as the only way to go, are the ones biting at the bit to
subsidize a dying dinosaur.
caty royce, south minneapolis, selby avenue
What I find interesting is these same corporations
that demand money from the public to be competitive
never take the steps to make their product and service
more in demand by the public.
Before anyone jumps on this post. I want to make it
clear that I am not refering to Ford Motor Company as
a corporation that is demanding something. I know we
have always given them what they want and will
probably do it again. But this initiative is coming
from the politicians trying to save jobs.
Yet Ford Motor company is one of the American
automobile manufactures tha haven't learned from the
inport auto manufactures what the puble wants and is
willing to buy.
I don't know much about the logistics in converting a
light truck plant into one that produces alternative
fuel automibiles. But it there is no longer a need
for light trucks, why not go where the buying public
is being forced to go.
--- caty royce <email obscured>> wrote:
>
> I'm with Tate on this one. I understand the gravity
> of losing 4,500 good paying jobs but ain't our
> system called capitlism. And doesn't it work like
> this: you've got supply and demand. That dynamic
> creates the need for goods and balances the market.
> When a company can no longer compete in the "market"
> and its goods no longer have a healhty demand than
> they go away, they die. I find it simply
> fascinating that our "republican" leaders (Swiggum
> made the clearest, give 'em anything they ask for"
> statement yesterday), who normally espouse the
> market system as the only way to go, are the ones
> biting at the bit to subsidize a dying dinosaur.
>
> caty royce, south minneapolis, selby avenue
>
> caty royce
> work on Selby, live over south minneapolis
> More info:
>
http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/catyroyce
>
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Mike Fratto
Payne Phalen
651-296-3574
http://oyh.org
__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Here's part of what the AP said last week:
"While the plan is still being formulated and is subject to change, the Wall
Street Journal said North Americas second-biggest automaker is likely to close
U.S. assembly plants in St. Louis, Atlanta and St. Paul, Minn. It cited two
unidentified people familiar with the automakers product plans.
The newspaper said the plant in Windsor and a truck-assembly plant in
Cuautitlan, Mexico, are also slated for closure.
Together, the plants employ about 7,500 workers, or 6 per cent of Fords North
American workforce.
Obviously, weve indicated we will address our excess capacity, Ford spokesman
Oscar Suris said. Weve been pretty consistent in saying well share these plans
in more detail in January. Nothing is finalized.
The report comes a day after Ford said sales of its Ford, Lincoln and Mercury
brands fell 18 per cent in November, and it said it would produce 2.5 per cent
fewer vehicles in North America in the first quarter than it did last year.
Ford chairman-CEO Bill Ford has said he plans to announce U.S. plant closings
and layoffs in January."
Elizabeth Dickinson
West Side
Russ Hanson,
Where are you from?...i.e., where do you live? SPIF
RULE.
Gary Thompson
Highland
--- Russ Hanson <email obscured>> wrote:
>
> All of you have read about the recent meeting
> involving FoMOCo and Pawlenty, Norm, and ST. Paul
> Mayor Chris Coleman. It looks that most of you are
> not too happy about it either and I don't blame you.
>
>
> There's even a bigger problem here than what's on
> the surface.
>
>
> One would expect such a meeting with the R's. But
> not a Democrat.
>
> In recent years we've been electing Mayoral
> candidates that APPEAR to be D's who are really
> nothing more than R's in disguise. Going back, we
> elected Norm, who even changed parties! Then, we
> elected Randy, who claimed Democratic ties, only to
> govern more like an R' than a D.
>
> In these past years, it's been the same old story of
> camouflaged r's masquerading as D's. What ya see,
> isn't what ya get. For the last decade or so, it's
> been nothing more than a political / ideological
> drag show at the Mayor's office.
>
> Kelly's decisive defeat was based on the collective
> repudiation of conservative Republicanism and it's
> values. Norm Coleman would not be elected Mayor of
> St. Paul if he choose to run.
>
>
> Now, here comes Chris Coleman. A candidate, whose
> history, sans a few questionable blemishes, was / is
> supposedly, a solid Democrat.
>
>
>
> This whole meeting with FOMOCO brings up the BIG
> question. Which is:
> What the hell was the Democratic Chris Coleman doing
> in this meeting with Norm, the GOP towel-boy, and
> Terrible Tim, the disgusting and unacceptable
> Republican governor, crawling into bed with FOMOCO?
>
>
> One could expect this behavior from an R, but not
> from a vibrant and enlighten D.
> A Democrat's approach to government is supposedly
> different than the approach of a Republican. A
> Democrat believes that governments' function is to
> rule and regulate business, not to crawl in bed with
> it.
>
>
> Did we elect Mr. Christopher Coleman, proud and
> upstanding Democrat to lead this fine city OR did we
> elect "Miss Chrissy" another republican in drag? Is
> Chris Coleman just another political / ideological
> cross-dresser, trying to "pass" as a Democrat?
>
>
> Wouldn't you just know it, but it gets worse.
>
> In politics, timing is everything. The Democrats
> have always sought and received support from the
> minority communities, like the G.L.B.T.
>
> Recently, FOMOCO has been caving into the religious
> right and has pulled advertisements from the gay
> publications and has adopted a strong anti-gay
> company-wide policy.
>
> Where is Chris Coleman's awareness on this current
> issue of the day? As a Democrat, he should have
> clearly distanced himself from this company. Why is
> "Miss Chris", insulting the G.L.B.T.?
>
>
> In other groups, I have warned against the election
> of Chris Coleman. There were better candidates.
>
> Was I rightâ¦again?
>
>
> Rowdy Russ Hanson.
> The Truth in St. Paul.
>
> Russ Hanson
>
> More info:
>
http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/russhanson
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
> To leave St. Paul Issues Forum,
> email <email obscured> with
> "unsubscribe" as the subject
>
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> http://forums.e-democracy.org/topic/81957
>
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>
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Â Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
All of you have read about the recent meeting involving FoMOCo and Pawlenty,
Norm, and ST. Paul Mayor Chris Coleman. It looks that most of you are not too
happy about it either and I don't blame you.
There's even a bigger problem here than what's on the surface.
One would expect such a meeting with the R's. But not a Democrat.
In recent years we've been electing Mayoral candidates that APPEAR to be D's
who are really nothing more than R's in disguise. Going back, we elected Norm,
who even changed parties! Then, we elected Randy, who claimed Democratic ties,
only to govern more like an R' than a D.
In these past years, it's been the same old story of camouflaged r's
masquerading as D's. What ya see, isn't what ya get. For the last decade or so,
it's been nothing more than a political / ideological drag show at the Mayor's
office.
Kelly's decisive defeat was based on the collective repudiation of conservative
Republicanism and it's values. Norm Coleman would not be elected Mayor of St.
Paul if he choose to run.
Now, here comes Chris Coleman. A candidate, whose history, sans a few
questionable blemishes, was / is supposedly, a solid Democrat.
This whole meeting with FOMOCO brings up the BIG question. Which is:
What the hell was the Democratic Chris Coleman doing in this meeting with Norm,
the GOP towel-boy, and Terrible Tim, the disgusting and unacceptable Republican
governor, crawling into bed with FOMOCO?
One could expect this behavior from an R, but not from a vibrant and enlighten
D.
A Democrat's approach to government is supposedly different than the approach
of a Republican. A Democrat believes that governments' function is to rule and
regulate business, not to crawl in bed with it.
Did we elect Mr. Christopher Coleman, proud and upstanding Democrat to lead
this fine city OR did we elect "Miss Chrissy" another republican in drag? Is
Chris Coleman just another political / ideological cross-dresser, trying to
"pass" as a Democrat?
Wouldn't you just know it, but it gets worse.
In politics, timing is everything. The Democrats have always sought and
received support from the minority communities, like the G.L.B.T.
Recently, FOMOCO has been caving into the religious right and has pulled
advertisements from the gay publications and has adopted a strong anti-gay
company-wide policy.
Where is Chris Coleman's awareness on this current issue of the day? As a
Democrat, he should have clearly distanced himself from this company. Why is
"Miss Chris", insulting the G.L.B.T.?
In other groups, I have warned against the election of Chris Coleman. There
were better candidates.
Was I rightagain?
Rowdy Russ Hanson.
The Truth in St. Paul.
I would be interested to find out what is happening in those meetings between
Pawlenty and Ford. I would also like to know what the percentage of St. Paul
residents work at the plant. I am against sweetheart deals given to failing
multinationals. Would it be bad to say goodbye to a company that helped fund
the political rise of Hitler?
History buff
Tate Weston
It should also be noted that Ford seems to be caving in to demands
from the so-called "American Family Association" to stop advertising
in the Gay press.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1968388
Would Ford agree to stop advertising in the Jewish press if the
neo-nazis complained?
This is no different.
If this story is true, I will have to put a Boycott Ford sign on my Ranger.
Bob Treumann, como area
--- Bob Treumann <email obscured>> wrote:
> It should also be noted that Ford seems to be caving
> in to demands
> from the so-called "American Family Association" to
> stop advertising
> in the Gay press.
>
>
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1968388
>
> Would Ford agree to stop advertising in the Jewish
> press if the
> neo-nazis complained?
> This is no different.
>
> If this story is true, I will have to put a Boycott
> Ford sign on my Ranger.
>
> Bob Treumann, como area
>
>
It's true. I've been covering this on Lloydletta's
Nooz:
http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/12/ford-does-more-self-inflicted-damage.html
http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/12/dallas-ford-dealer-jerry-reynolds.html
Americablog has some Ford Contact information.
http://www.americablog.org
Here are a few Ford Dealers in the St Paul area. I
encourage people to call the dealers about this and
let them know your concerns.
I personally am not interested in Boycotting Ford -
but rather am interested in encouraging them to
reverse their position on this very bad decision.
Locate a Dealer Search Results
Find a Ford dealer, get a map and directions,
information on their services, hours of operation and
special promotions. And that's not all you can do.
Once you've found a dealer, you can check out new and
used inventory, select a vehicle, build it to your
specifications, request a quote, and even apply for
credit. It's that easy!
You searched for dealerships in (St Paul,MN).
12345>>
Dealer Address Contact
1. Inver Grove Ford
Internet Approved 4725 S Robert Trail
Inver Grove Heights, MN 55077
Distance: 4.50 miles
Blue Oval Certified
Tel: (651) 451-2201
Fax: (651) 457-4773
Quality Checked
map
browse inventory
SVT
2. Lakeland Truck Center Inc
Internet Approved 740 South Concord Street
South St Paul, MN 55075
Distance: 5.37 miles
Blue Oval Certified
Tel: (651) 450-1500
Fax: (651) 450-9082
map
browse inventory
3. Midway Ford Company
Internet Approved 2777 Snelling Ave. N.
Roseville, MN 55113
Distance: 6.56 miles
Blue Oval Certified
Tel: (651) 636-8200
Fax: (651) 638-4867
map
browse inventory
4. Boyer Ford Trucks
Internet Approved 2425 Broadway Street Northeast
Minneapolis, MN 55413
Distance: 7.54 miles
Blue Oval Certified
Tel: (612) 378-6000
Fax: (612) 627-5551
map
browse inventory
5. Tousley Ford
Internet Approved 1493 East County Road E
White Bear Lake, MN 55110
Distance: 7.81 miles
Blue Oval Certified
Tel: (651) 484-7231
Fax: (651) 484-8939
Quality Checked
map
browse inventory
SVT
6. New Brighton Ford, Inc.
Internet Approved 1100 Silver Lake Road
New Brighton, MN 55112
Distance: 10.50 miles
Blue Oval Certified
Tel: (651) 633-9010
Fax: (651) 633-6521
map
browse inventory
SVT
7. Freeway Ford
Internet Approved 9700 Lyndale Ave South
Minneapolis, MN 55420
Distance: 12.54 miles
Blue Oval Certified
Eva Young
Lloydletta's Nooz
http://lloydletta.blogspot.com
Eva Young
Near North
Minneapolis
Blogs:
http://lloydletta.blogspot.com
http://www.outletradio.com
Last week Bob Treumann wrote:
--- Bob Treumann <bobtr ( at ) visi.com> wrote:
It should also be noted that Ford seems to be caving in to demands from the
so-called "American Family Association" to stop advertising in the Gay press.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1968388
Would Ford agree to stop advertising in the Jewish press if the neo-nazis
complained?
This is no different.
If this story is true, I will have to put a Boycott Ford sign on my Ranger.
Bob Treumann, como area
EY:
Now Ford has met with Gay groups, and the groups are satisfied. Ford has
agreed to advertize all their brands in the gay press - using ads that target
the gay community. The AFA is threatening to reinstate their boycott.
http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/12/ford-will-advertize-all-brands-in-gay.html
Ford is saying there never was a deal with the AFA. The AFA is claiming there
WAS a deal, and that Ford broke the deal.
I just wanted people to know the update since this issue and Ford was discussed
last week (related to the impending plant closing for the St Paul plant) - and
people who are considering boycotting Ford over the AFA issue should forget
about doing that.
I'd encourage people on this list who post to Democratic underground, to post
an update on this over there.
Eva Young
Lloydletta's Nooz
http://lloydletta.blogspot.com
Hey Rowdy - I understand your frustration with Norm and Randy but the
jury is still out with Chris and going to a meeting is really not a big
deal - if the mayor was not invited we would all wonder why and be
critical of the process - if invited and the mayor did not go, again we
would wonder why and probably be critical of Chris' decision -
But to more important matters - it looks like fomoco is playing cities
off against each other - saying 7 manufacturing sites will close and
then naming only three - and now everyone is lining up to see how much
public largess we can come up with (I really do not want to hear any
free market comments - usually the domain of republicans - from anyone).
This is corporate welfare pure and simple - it has been going on for
some time and will probably continue for some time.
This is what I want - during these negotiations where our
"representatives' give the kitchen sink to fomoco I want these
representatives to demand one thing of fomoco in return - I want our
river back!!!! fomoco has been using it to power their plant for 80+
years and the river has suffered tremendously - give it back!!! - get
your hydro power plant (worth about 2M a year - corporate chump change -
if you do not count all the money the corps of engineers spends to
maintain the 9 foot channel to Minneapolis' upper harbor which is
closing!!!) out of there and allow the damn dams to be removed - we will
even name the underlying rapids after Bill Ford or Henry or whomever
just give us our river back!!!. (maybe too much coffee!!!) Brian Bates,
MacGrove
Russ Hanson wrote:
>All of you have read about the recent meeting involving FoMOCo and Pawlenty,
Norm, and ST. Paul Mayor Chris Coleman. It looks that most of you are not too
happy about it either and I don't blame you.
>
>There's even a bigger problem here than what's on the surface.
>
>
>One would expect such a meeting with the R's. But not a Democrat.
>
>In recent years we've been electing Mayoral candidates that APPEAR to be D's
who are really nothing more than R's in disguise. Going back, we elected Norm,
who even changed parties! Then, we elected Randy, who claimed Democratic ties,
only to govern more like an R' than a D.
>
>In these past years, it's been the same old story of camouflaged r's
masquerading as D's. What ya see, isn't what ya get. For the last decade or so,
it's been nothing more than a political / ideological drag show at the Mayor's
office.
>
>Kelly's decisive defeat was based on the collective repudiation of
conservative Republicanism and it's values. Norm Coleman would not be elected
Mayor of St. Paul if he choose to run.
>
>
>Now, here comes Chris Coleman. A candidate, whose history, sans a few
questionable blemishes, was / is supposedly, a solid Democrat.
>
>
>
>This whole meeting with FOMOCO brings up the BIG question. Which is:
>What the hell was the Democratic Chris Coleman doing in this meeting with
Norm, the GOP towel-boy, and Terrible Tim, the disgusting and unacceptable
Republican governor, crawling into bed with FOMOCO?
>
>
>One could expect this behavior from an R, but not from a vibrant and enlighten
D.
>A Democrat's approach to government is supposedly different than the approach
of a Republican. A Democrat believes that governments' function is to rule and
regulate business, not to crawl in bed with it.
>
>
>Did we elect Mr. Christopher Coleman, proud and upstanding Democrat to lead
this fine city OR did we elect "Miss Chrissy" another republican in drag? Is
Chris Coleman just another political / ideological cross-dresser, trying to
"pass" as a Democrat?
>
>
>Wouldn't you just know it, but it gets worse.
>
>In politics, timing is everything. The Democrats have always sought and
received support from the minority communities, like the G.L.B.T.
>
>Recently, FOMOCO has been caving into the religious right and has pulled
advertisements from the gay publications and has adopted a strong anti-gay
company-wide policy.
>
>Where is Chris Coleman's awareness on this current issue of the day? As a
Democrat, he should have clearly distanced himself from this company. Why is
"Miss Chris", insulting the G.L.B.T.?
>
>
>In other groups, I have warned against the election of Chris Coleman. There
were better candidates.
I wonder why nobody has discussed this possibility, on this forum or else
where.
Being that there is a high demand for hybrid vehicles nowadays, is there a
possibility that an automaker, say toyota, buys the place to produce hybrid
vehicles? Granted labor costs are higher here than Alabama, but I imagine the
free energy must be an inducement, assuming retrofitting the plant isn't
expensive. (full disclaimer: I do not know if the energy produced at the dam is
"free" and if it powers the whole plant)
The Ford dam was initially designed (by Minneapolis corporate interests)
to be 16 feet - too short for hydro - but was redesigned to 30 feet to
provide hrdro and was used as an inducement for industry - the rationale
was that if we are going to use the river for barge traffic we might as
well make good use of it and provide for hydro also. Made sense. Now we
see the loss, almost entirely, of barge traffic and we are left with a
congressionally mandated 9 foot channel with lock and dam system and all
that expense with the prime beneficiary being Ford. The tail (hydro
power) wags the dog (barge traffic). Sure the hydro is an inducement to
industry but at what cost??? No one, and I mean no one, knows because no
one will invest some cash and do a proper study of present day
circumstances versus the possibilities if a free flowing river. And yet
I suspect the govenor is ready and willing to write a virtually blank
check to Ford to stay. Check Sierra Club, North Star Chapter, web site
for "let the river run" details. brian bates, MacGrove.
Seth Benziger wrote:
>I wonder why nobody has discussed this possibility, on this forum or else
where.
>
>Being that there is a high demand for hybrid vehicles nowadays, is there a
possibility that an automaker, say toyota, buys the place to produce hybrid
vehicles? Granted labor costs are higher here than Alabama, but I imagine the
free energy must be an inducement, assuming retrofitting the plant isn't
expensive. (full disclaimer: I do not know if the energy produced at the dam is
"free" and if it powers the whole plant)
brian bates <email obscured>> wrote: The Ford dam was initially designed
(by Minneapolis corporate interests)
to be 16 feet - too short for hydro - but was redesigned to 30 feet to
provide hrdro and was used as an inducement for industry - the rationale
was that if we are going to use the river for barge traffic we might as
well make good use of it and provide for hydro also. Made sense. Now we
see the loss, almost entirely, of barge traffic and we are left with a
congressionally mandated 9 foot channel with lock and dam system and all
that expense with the prime beneficiary being Ford. The tail (hydro
power) wags the dog (barge traffic). Sure the hydro is an inducement to
industry but at what cost??? No one, and I mean no one, knows because no
one will invest some cash and do a proper study of present day
circumstances versus the possibilities if a free flowing river. And yet
I suspect the govenor is ready and willing to write a virtually blank
check to Ford to stay.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Again, Ford may shut down their property and simply sit on it. I
don't think they own all the power from the dam but they get a large share (?)
They used to have their own glass plant there also due to the very fine slica
located right in their basement. It's a choice piece of property to say the
least.
Observing the manner in which Ford is letting plants twist in the wind
over possible closings, I would surmise that they would perform the same
machinations towards the event of a possible sale of the property. Developers
should sop up their drool and cool their heels, this isn't near to over.
By the way, let's not let 1800 or so good union jobs just be an American
side story. We don't know that they are lost. The workers don't know that they
are lost. Why is everyone so existential abut this crap? If that plant shuts
down, St. Paul should hold a wake.
Blue Collar middle class R.I.P.
Jon Gorder
Cathedral Hill
---------------------------------
What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos
brian bates <email obscured>> wrote: The Ford dam was initially designed
(by Minneapolis corporate interests)
to be 16 feet - too short for hydro - but was redesigned to 30 feet to
provide hrdro and was used as an inducement for industry - the rationale
was that if we are going to use the river for barge traffic we might as
well make good use of it and provide for hydro also. Made sense. Now we
see the loss, almost entirely, of barge traffic and we are left with a
congressionally mandated 9 foot channel with lock and dam system and all
that expense with the prime beneficiary being Ford. The tail (hydro
power) wags the dog (barge traffic). Sure the hydro is an inducement to
industry but at what cost??? No one, and I mean no one, knows because no
one will invest some cash and do a proper study of present day
circumstances versus the possibilities if a free flowing river. And yet
I suspect the govenor is ready and willing to write a virtually blank
check to Ford to stay.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Again, Ford may shut down their property and simply sit on it. I
don't think they own all the power from the dam but they get a large share (?)
They used to have their own glass plant there also due to the very fine slica
located right in their basement. It's a choice piece of property to say the
least.
Observing the manner in which Ford is letting plants twist in the wind
over possible closings, I would surmise that they would perform the same
machinations towards the event of a possible sale of the property. Developers
should sop up their drool and cool their heels, this isn't near to over.
By the way, let's not let 1800 or so good union jobs just be an American
side story. We don't know that they are lost. The workers don't know that they
are lost. Why is everyone so existential abut this crap? If that plant shuts
down, St. Paul should hold a wake.
Blue Collar middle class R.I.P.
Jon Gorder
Cathedral Hill
---------------------------------
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When ya sleep with the dogs of republicanism, ya wake
up with the same ideological fleas. True Democrats
don't consort with the captains of business. They
oppose them.
Yes it is corporate welfare but it doesn't need to
continue now or into the future. You see, the more
ideological purity we demand in Democratic leaders,
the less corporate welfare we will have to suffer.
Yes, FOMOCO should be paying premium for the use of
our waterways and so should the broadcasters who use
our airwaves for their own personal gain.
Again, the more purity we demand, the more money in
the city treasury available to assist the working
classes in softening the ravages of hard -right
capitalistic liberalism.
Rowdy Russ Hanson.
The Truth in St. Paul.
--- brian bates <email obscured>> wrote:
> Hey Rowdy - I understand your frustration with Norm
> and Randy but the
> jury is still out with Chris and going to a meeting
> is really not a big
> deal - if the mayor was not invited we would all
> wonder why and be
> critical of the process - if invited and the mayor
> did not go, again we
> would wonder why and probably be critical of Chris'
> decision -
>
> But to more important matters - it looks like fomoco
> is playing cities
> off against each other - saying 7 manufacturing
> sites will close and
> then naming only three - and now everyone is lining
> up to see how much
> public largess we can come up with (I really do not
> want to hear any
> free market comments - usually the domain of
> republicans - from anyone).
> This is corporate welfare pure and simple - it has
> been going on for
> some time and will probably continue for some time.
>
> This is what I want - during these negotiations
> where our
> "representatives' give the kitchen sink to fomoco I
> want these
> representatives to demand one thing of fomoco in
> return - I want our
> river back!!!! fomoco has been using it to power
> their plant for 80+
> years and the river has suffered tremendously - give
> it back!!! - get
> your hydro power plant (worth about 2M a year -
> corporate chump change -
> if you do not count all the money the corps of
> engineers spends to
> maintain the 9 foot channel to Minneapolis' upper
> harbor which is
> closing!!!) out of there and allow the damn dams to
> be removed - we will
> even name the underlying rapids after Bill Ford or
> Henry or whomever
> just give us our river back!!!. (maybe too much
> coffee!!!) Brian Bates,
> MacGrove
>
> Russ Hanson wrote:
>
> >All of you have read about the recent meeting
> involving FoMOCo and Pawlenty, Norm, and ST. Paul
> Mayor Chris Coleman. It looks that most of you are
> not too happy about it either and I don't blame you.
>
> >
> >There's even a bigger problem here than what's on
> the surface.
> >
> >
> >One would expect such a meeting with the R's. But
> not a Democrat.
> >
> >In recent years we've been electing Mayoral
> candidates that APPEAR to be D's who are really
> nothing more than R's in disguise. Going back, we
> elected Norm, who even changed parties! Then, we
> elected Randy, who claimed Democratic ties, only to
> govern more like an R' than a D.
> >
> >In these past years, it's been the same old story
> of camouflaged r's masquerading as D's. What ya see,
> isn't what ya get. For the last decade or so, it's
> been nothing more than a political / ideological
> drag show at the Mayor's office.
> >
> >Kelly's decisive defeat was based on the collective
> repudiation of conservative Republicanism and it's
> values. Norm Coleman would not be elected Mayor of
> St. Paul if he choose to run.
> >
> >
> >Now, here comes Chris Coleman. A candidate, whose
> history, sans a few questionable blemishes, was / is
> supposedly, a solid Democrat.
> >
> >
> >
> >This whole meeting with FOMOCO brings up the BIG
> question. Which is:
> >What the hell was the Democratic Chris Coleman
> doing in this meeting with Norm, the GOP towel-boy,
> and Terrible Tim, the disgusting and unacceptable
> Republican governor, crawling into bed with FOMOCO?
> >
> >
> >One could expect this behavior from an R, but not
> from a vibrant and enlighten D.
> >A Democrat's approach to government is supposedly
> different than the approach of a Republican. A
> Democrat believes that governments' function is to
> rule and regulate business, not to crawl in bed with
> it.
> >
> >
> >Did we elect Mr. Christopher Coleman, proud and
> upstanding Democrat to lead this fine city OR did we
> elect "Miss Chrissy" another republican in drag? Is
> Chris Coleman just another political / ideological
> cross-dresser, trying to "pass" as a Democrat?
> >
> >
> >Wouldn't you just know it, but it gets worse.
> >
> >In politics, timing is everything. The Democrats
> have always sought and received support from the
> minority communities, like the G.L.B.T.
> >
> >Recently, FOMOCO has been caving into the religious
> right and has pulled advertisements from the gay
> publications and has adopted a strong anti-gay
> company-wide policy.
> >
> >Where is Chris Coleman's awareness on this current
> issue of the day? As a Democrat, he should have
> clearly distanced himself from this company. Why is
> "Miss Chris", insulting the G.L.B.T.?
> >
> >
> >In other groups, I have warned against the election
> of Chris Coleman. There were better candidates.
> >
> >Was I right⬦again?
> >
> >
> >Rowdy Russ Hanson.
> >The Truth in St. Paul.
> >
> >Russ Hanson
> >
> >More info:
>
http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/russhanson
> >
> >- - - - - - - - - - -
> >To leave St. Paul Issues Forum,
> >email <email obscured> with
> "unsubscribe" as the subject
> >
> >This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> >http://forums.e-democracy.org/topic/81987
> >
> >For digest or to update bio options (must log-in):
>
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/groups/stpaul-issues/
> >
> >Citizens Guide to St. Paul
>
>http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
> >
> >Hosted by http://e-democracy.org
> >- - - - - - - - - - -
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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I would expect the mayor to be there. I don't know how he couldn't be.
Michelle Hoffman
West Side
Mayor of St. PaulOn Jan 30, 2006, at 7:25 AM, popman wrote:
> When ya sleep with the dogs of republicanism, ya wake
> up with the same ideological fleas. True Democrats
> don't consort with the captains of business. They
> oppose them.
>
>
> Yes it is corporate welfare but it doesn't need to
> continue now or into the future. You see, the more
> ideological purity we demand in Democratic leaders,
> the less corporate welfare we will have to suffer.
>
>
> Yes, FOMOCO should be paying premium for the use of
> our waterways and so should the broadcasters who use
> our airwaves for their own personal gain.
>
> Again, the more purity we demand, the more money in
> the city treasury available to assist the working
> classes in softening the ravages of hard -right
> capitalistic liberalism.
>
>
> Rowdy Russ Hanson.
> The Truth in St. Paul.
>
>
>
> --- brian bates <email obscured>> wrote:
>
>> Hey Rowdy - I understand your frustration with Norm
>> and Randy but the
>> jury is still out with Chris and going to a meeting
>> is really not a big
>> deal - if the mayor was not invited we would all
>> wonder why and be
>> critical of the process - if invited and the mayor
>> did not go, again we
>> would wonder why and probably be critical of Chris'
>> decision -
>>
>> But to more important matters - it looks like fomoco
>> is playing cities
>> off against each other - saying 7 manufacturing
>> sites will close and
>> then naming only three - and now everyone is lining
>> up to see how much
>> public largess we can come up with (I really do not
>> want to hear any
>> free market comments - usually the domain of
>> republicans - from anyone).
>> This is corporate welfare pure and simple - it has
>> been going on for
>> some time and will probably continue for some time.
>>
>> This is what I want - during these negotiations
>> where our
>> "representatives' give the kitchen sink to fomoco I
>> want these
>> representatives to demand one thing of fomoco in
>> return - I want our
>> river back!!!! fomoco has been using it to power
>> their plant for 80+
>> years and the river has suffered tremendously - give
>> it back!!! - get
>> your hydro power plant (worth about 2M a year -
>> corporate chump change -
>> if you do not count all the money the corps of
>> engineers spends to
>> maintain the 9 foot channel to Minneapolis' upper
>> harbor which is
>> closing!!!) out of there and allow the damn dams to
>> be removed - we will
>> even name the underlying rapids after Bill Ford or
>> Henry or whomever
>> just give us our river back!!!. (maybe too much
>> coffee!!!) Brian Bates,
>> MacGrove
>>
>> Russ Hanson wrote:
>>
>>> All of you have read about the recent meeting
>> involving FoMOCo and Pawlenty, Norm, and ST. Paul
>> Mayor Chris Coleman. It looks that most of you are
>> not too happy about it either and I don't blame you.
>>
>>>
>>> There's even a bigger problem here than what's on
>> the surface.
>>>
>>>
>>> One would expect such a meeting with the R's. But
>> not a Democrat.
>>>
>>> In recent years we've been electing Mayoral
>> candidates that APPEAR to be D's who are really
>> nothing more than R's in disguise. Going back, we
>> elected Norm, who even changed parties! Then, we
>> elected Randy, who claimed Democratic ties, only to
>> govern more like an R' than a D.
>>>
>>> In these past years, it's been the same old story
>> of camouflaged r's masquerading as D's. What ya see,
>> isn't what ya get. For the last decade or so, it's
>> been nothing more than a political / ideological
>> drag show at the Mayor's office.
>>>
>>> Kelly's decisive defeat was based on the collective
>> repudiation of conservative Republicanism and it's
>> values. Norm Coleman would not be elected Mayor of
>> St. Paul if he choose to run.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, here comes Chris Coleman. A candidate, whose
>> history, sans a few questionable blemishes, was / is
>> supposedly, a solid Democrat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This whole meeting with FOMOCO brings up the BIG
>> question. Which is:
>>> What the hell was the Democratic Chris Coleman
>> doing in this meeting with Norm, the GOP towel-boy,
>> and Terrible Tim, the disgusting and unacceptable
>> Republican governor, crawling into bed with FOMOCO?
>>>
>>>
>>> One could expect this behavior from an R, but not
>> from a vibrant and enlighten D.
>>> A Democrat's approach to government is supposedly
>> different than the approach of a Republican. A
>> Democrat believes that governments' function is to
>> rule and regulate business, not to crawl in bed with
>> it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Did we elect Mr. Christopher Coleman, proud and
>> upstanding Democrat to lead this fine city OR did we
>> elect "Miss Chrissy" another republican in drag? Is
>> Chris Coleman just another political / ideological
>> cross-dresser, trying to "pass" as a Democrat?
>>>
>>>
>>> Wouldn't you just know it, but it gets worse.
>>>
>>> In politics, timing is everything. The Democrats
>> have always sought and received support from the
>> minority communities, like the G.L.B.T.
>>>
>>> Recently, FOMOCO has been caving into the religious
>> right and has pulled advertisements from the gay
>> publications and has adopted a strong anti-gay
>> company-wide policy.
>>>
>>> Where is Chris Coleman's awareness on this current
>> issue of the day? As a Democrat, he should have
>> clearly distanced himself from this company. Why is
>> "Miss Chris", insulting the G.L.B.T.?
>>>
>>>
>>> In other groups, I have warned against the election
>> of Chris Coleman. There were better candidates.
>>>
>>> Was I right⬦again?
>>>
>>>
>>> Rowdy Russ Hanson.
>>> The Truth in St. Paul.
>>>
>>> Russ Hanson
>>>
>>> More info:
>>
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/russhanson
>>>
>>> - - - - - - - - - - -
>>> To leave St. Paul Issues Forum,
>>> email <email obscured> with
>> "unsubscribe" as the subject
>>>
>>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/topic/81987
>>>
>>> For digest or to update bio options (must log-in):
>>
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/groups/stpaul-issues/
>>>
>>> Citizens Guide to St. Paul
>>
>> http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
>>>
>>> Hosted by http://e-democracy.org
>>> - - - - - - - - - - -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
> Russ Hanson
>
> More info: http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/russhanson
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
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> email <email obscured> with "unsubscribe" as the
> subject
>
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>
> For digest or to update bio options (must log-in):
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>
> Citizens Guide to St. Paul
> http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
>
> Hosted by http://e-democracy.org
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
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> for investigation to: <email obscured>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
>
I would wonder what Mr. Bates would do with the river if there was no longer a
dam. There would still only be few safe accesses to the river and the 8' ft of
water over rapids would only happen for a short period of the year. If one
looks at pictures of the river, when the lower NSP hydro plant failed back in
the 1980's, you would see a a small respectable creek masquerading as the
Mighty Mississippi River. Average depth of the Mississippi, before the lock and
dam system, was only 3' in summer all the way to St. Louis. Like Phyllis Kahn
said at a public meeting in NE Mpls. a few years ago, ( My Paraphrasing) "We
need to use our natural resource dollars in places where we get the most bang
for our dollars, not in an industrialized urban river setting."
Why would we take out a dam that has provided " clean green" energy for 83
yrs, when we have many other more viable dams to take out, that would provide
more environmental impact? We could start with Coon Rapids, which exists mostly
to prop up property values in Coon Rapids, Brooklyn Park, & Champlin. Then we
could work our way upriver to a bigger Corps of Engineers boondoggle than the
the 3 Twin City Locks, the Headwaters Projects with its' 5 dams, that impound
and impact thousands of acres of former Native American lands and related wild
rice beds. Million dollar "cabins" like those on Whitefish Chain, Gull Lake,
and soon to be Winnie area, and their politically astute(read influential
special interest money)owners and builders will never allow it.
Look up sometime the Corps budgets on these sites. Talk about GW complaining
about the Corps' mission creep. ( An aside: the Corps operates more campsites
than the National Park Service.)
I have learned to look at the river ecosystem and its' health as a whole. A
systemic approach must be used to address the overdevelopement of the
Headwaters downriver to the loss of approximately 30 sq. miles/yr. of Louisiana
marshland, not just what is in my backyard. I would grieve the loss of the Ford
plant and its' livable wages, but even more so I would grieve the potential of
developers to abuse even more of our riverfront. If you think you can hold off
the relentless hunger of riverfront developers, come down to the downtowns and
look at how multicolored architecture enhances our bluffs and floodplains. Look
at the so-called plans to "green" the Upper Mpls. Harbor. High-rise condos with
a concrete promontory for public access were not what the public had in mind,
but it was what developers and their city lackeys had in mind.
Watch and see the hue and cry come from the Upper Landing residents when they
can't get to their $1 mil. townhomes because another hundred year flood puts 3'
of water on their Shepard Road - another river restricting levee goes up. In
talking to the public, I always point out, that when I was young-only poor
people lived on the riverbanks, now that I am older-only rich people live on
the riverbanks.
Get off the bluffs, quit looking at the river like a painting in a museum, and
see what it is - a multi-use resource for all to appreciate.
Greg Genz
Life-long River Rat
SSP
Right on.
Let's oppose all big boxes, chaninstores, TIF for retail, and all other
forms of corporate welfare for StPaul and area. The rich and their tools
(eg the StPaul Chamber of Commerce and all their lackeys) are our
implacable enemies. Let's declare StPaul a corporate-free zone.
"Mature" "responsible" "moderate" Dems that take corporate money are the
enemy. Don't vote for any of them. Think about dumping the
Alito-sanctioning Dems, for a third party. Every vote for Hillary is a
wasted vote. Every vote for a local corporate-money taking Dem is a wasted
vote - a vote in fact against democracy and freedom. We have let things go
so far to the right, all the remedies will be seen as radical.
--David Shove
Roseville
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, popman wrote:
> When ya sleep with the dogs of republicanism, ya wake
> up with the same ideological fleas. True Democrats
> don't consort with the captains of business. They
> oppose them.
>
>
> Yes it is corporate welfare but it doesn't need to
> continue now or into the future. You see, the more
> ideological purity we demand in Democratic leaders,
> the less corporate welfare we will have to suffer.
>
>
> Yes, FOMOCO should be paying premium for the use of
> our waterways and so should the broadcasters who use
> our airwaves for their own personal gain.
>
> Again, the more purity we demand, the more money in
> the city treasury available to assist the working
> classes in softening the ravages of hard -right
> capitalistic liberalism.
>
>
> Rowdy Russ Hanson.
> The Truth in St. Paul.
>
>
>
> --- brian bates <email obscured>> wrote:
>
> > Hey Rowdy - I understand your frustration with Norm
> > and Randy but the
> > jury is still out with Chris and going to a meeting
> > is really not a big
> > deal - if the mayor was not invited we would all
> > wonder why and be
> > critical of the process - if invited and the mayor
> > did not go, again we
> > would wonder why and probably be critical of Chris'
> > decision -
> >
> > But to more important matters - it looks like fomoco
> > is playing cities
> > off against each other - saying 7 manufacturing
> > sites will close and
> > then naming only three - and now everyone is lining
> > up to see how much
> > public largess we can come up with (I really do not
> > want to hear any
> > free market comments - usually the domain of
> > republicans - from anyone).
> > This is corporate welfare pure and simple - it has
> > been going on for
> > some time and will probably continue for some time.
> >
> > This is what I want - during these negotiations
> > where our
> > "representatives' give the kitchen sink to fomoco I
> > want these
> > representatives to demand one thing of fomoco in
> > return - I want our
> > river back!!!! fomoco has been using it to power
> > their plant for 80+
> > years and the river has suffered tremendously - give
> > it back!!! - get
> > your hydro power plant (worth about 2M a year -
> > corporate chump change -
> > if you do not count all the money the corps of
> > engineers spends to
> > maintain the 9 foot channel to Minneapolis' upper
> > harbor which is
> > closing!!!) out of there and allow the damn dams to
> > be removed - we will
> > even name the underlying rapids after Bill Ford or
> > Henry or whomever
> > just give us our river back!!!. (maybe too much
> > coffee!!!) Brian Bates,
> > MacGrove
> >
> > Russ Hanson wrote:
> >
> > >All of you have read about the recent meeting
> > involving FoMOCo and Pawlenty, Norm, and ST. Paul
> > Mayor Chris Coleman. It looks that most of you are
> > not too happy about it either and I don't blame you.
> >
> > >
> > >There's even a bigger problem here than what's on
> > the surface.
> > >
> > >
> > >One would expect such a meeting with the R's. But
> > not a Democrat.
> > >
> > >In recent years we've been electing Mayoral
> > candidates that APPEAR to be D's who are really
> > nothing more than R's in disguise. Going back, we
> > elected Norm, who even changed parties! Then, we
> > elected Randy, who claimed Democratic ties, only to
> > govern more like an R' than a D.
> > >
> > >In these past years, it's been the same old story
> > of camouflaged r's masquerading as D's. What ya see,
> > isn't what ya get. For the last decade or so, it's
> > been nothing more than a political / ideological
> > drag show at the Mayor's office.
> > >
> > >Kelly's decisive defeat was based on the collective
> > repudiation of conservative Republicanism and it's
> > values. Norm Coleman would not be elected Mayor of
> > St. Paul if he choose to run.
> > >
> > >
> > >Now, here comes Chris Coleman. A candidate, whose
> > history, sans a few questionable blemishes, was / is
> > supposedly, a solid Democrat.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >This whole meeting with FOMOCO brings up the BIG
> > question. Which is:
> > >What the hell was the Democratic Chris Coleman
> > doing in this meeting with Norm, the GOP towel-boy,
> > and Terrible Tim, the disgusting and unacceptable
> > Republican governor, crawling into bed with FOMOCO?
> > >
> > >
> > >One could expect this behavior from an R, but not
> > from a vibrant and enlighten D.
> > >A Democrat's approach to government is supposedly
> > different than the approach of a Republican. A
> > Democrat believes that governments' function is to
> > rule and regulate business, not to crawl in bed with
> > it.
> > >
> > >
> > >Did we elect Mr. Christopher Coleman, proud and
> > upstanding Democrat to lead this fine city OR did we
> > elect "Miss Chrissy" another republican in drag? Is
> > Chris Coleman just another political / ideological
> > cross-dresser, trying to "pass" as a Democrat?
> > >
> > >
> > >Wouldn't you just know it, but it gets worse.
> > >
> > >In politics, timing is everything. The Democrats
> > have always sought and received support from the
> > minority communities, like the G.L.B.T.
> > >
> > >Recently, FOMOCO has been caving into the religious
> > right and has pulled advertisements from the gay
> > publications and has adopted a strong anti-gay
> > company-wide policy.
> > >
> > >Where is Chris Coleman's awareness on this current
> > issue of the day? As a Democrat, he should have
> > clearly distanced himself from this company. Why is
> > "Miss Chris", insulting the G.L.B.T.?
> > >
> > >
> > >In other groups, I have warned against the election
> > of Chris Coleman. There were better candidates.
> > >
> > >Was I right⬦again?
> > >
> > >
> > >Rowdy Russ Hanson.
> > >The Truth in St. Paul.
> > >
> > >Russ Hanson
> > >
> > >More info:
> >
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/russhanson
> > >
> > >- - - - - - - - - - -
> > >To leave St. Paul Issues Forum,
> > >email <email obscured> with
> > "unsubscribe" as the subject
> > >
> > >This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> > >http://forums.e-democracy.org/topic/81987
> > >
> > >For digest or to update bio options (must log-in):
> >
> >http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/groups/stpaul-issues/
> > >
> > >Citizens Guide to St. Paul
> >
> >http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
> > >
> > >Hosted by http://e-democracy.org
> > >- - - - - - - - - - -
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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>
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Dear Dave and Rowdy Russ (Popman),
I am amazed at your negative comments towards Democrats and Republicans. Your
rant about Republicans and Democrats is of little use to the solution at the
Ford plant. We should be working together with Ford in helping them keep the
plant open and thus saving 1700 union paying jobs. We should be looking at
alternative fuel cars being build at this plant. We should be looking at
multiple vehicle assemble at this plant. Involving the University of Minnesota
in alternative fuel development. These are some of the ideas of Democrats and
Republicans have come up with working together to keep jobs in St. Paul.
This unproductive talk does nothing to solve the problem. It only fuels hatred
and dislike. I can go on and on about this, but I feel that your comments
about Democrats and Republicans is off base. What is wrong with Democrats and
Republicans working together to save 1700 union paying jobs. I welcome these
individuals for putting aside their political differences and working together.
That is what is needed for St. Paul. Division does no good, it only pushes
people away.
Thanks,
John F. Krenik
Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
Bringing Common "Sense" back to St. Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: David Shove <email obscured>>
To: popman <email obscured>>
Cc: brian bates <email obscured>>; SPIF
<email obscured>>
Sent: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:14:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [SPIF] Ford Extorting Public
Right on.
Let's oppose all big boxes, chaninstores, TIF for retail, and all other
forms of corporate welfare for StPaul and area. The rich and their tools
(eg the StPaul Chamber of Commerce and all their lackeys) are our
implacable enemies. Let's declare StPaul a corporate-free zone.
"Mature" "responsible" "moderate" Dems that take corporate money are the
enemy. Don't vote for any of them. Think about dumping the
Alito-sanctioning Dems, for a third party. Every vote for Hillary is a
wasted vote. Every vote for a local corporate-money taking Dem is a wasted
vote - a vote in fact against democracy and freedom. We have let things go
so far to the right, all the remedies will be seen as radical.
--David Shove
Roseville
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, popman wrote:
> When ya sleep with the dogs of republicanism, ya wake
> up with the same ideological fleas. True Democrats
> don't consort with the captains of business. They
> oppose them.
>
>
> Yes it is corporate welfare but it doesn't need to
> continue now or into the future. You see, the more
> ideological purity we demand in Democratic leaders,
> the less corporate welfare we will have to suffer.
>
>
> Yes, FOMOCO should be paying premium for the use of
> our waterways and so should the broadcasters who use
> our airwaves for their own personal gain.
>
> Again, the more purity we demand, the more money in
> the city treasury available to assist the working
> classes in softening the ravages of hard -right
> capitalistic liberalism.
>
>
> Rowdy Russ Hanson.
> The Truth in St. Paul.
>
>
>
> --- brian bates <email obscured>> wrote:
>
> > Hey Rowdy - I understand your frustration with Norm
> > and Randy but the
> > jury is still out with Chris and going to a meeting
> > is really not a big
> > deal - if the mayor was not invited we would all
> > wonder why and be
> > critical of the process - if invited and the mayor
> > did not go, again we
> > would wonder why and probably be critical of Chris'
> > decision -
> >
> > But to more important matters - it looks like fomoco
> > is playing cities
> > off against each other - saying 7 manufacturing
> > sites will close and
> > then naming only three - and now everyone is lining
> > up to see how much
> > public largess we can come up with (I really do not
> > want to hear any
> > free market comments - usually the domain of
> > republicans - from anyone).
> > This is corporate welfare pure and simple - it has
> > been going on for
> > some time and will probably continue for some time.
> >
> > This is what I want - during these negotiations
> > where our
> > "representatives' give the kitchen sink to fomoco I
> > want these
> > representatives to demand one thing of fomoco in
> > return - I want our
> > river back!!!! fomoco has been using it to power
> > their plant for 80+
> > years and the river has suffered tremendously - give
> > it back!!! - get
> > your hydro power plant (worth about 2M a year -
> > corporate chump change -
> > if you do not count all the money the corps of
> > engineers spends to
> > maintain the 9 foot channel to Minneapolis' upper
> > harbor which is
> > closing!!!) out of there and allow the damn dams to
> > be removed - we will
> > even name the underlying rapids after Bill Ford or
> > Henry or whomever
> > just give us our river back!!!. (maybe too much
> > coffee!!!) Brian Bates,
> > MacGrove
> >
> > Russ Hanson wrote:
> >
> > >All of you have read about the recent meeting
> > involving FoMOCo and Pawlenty, Norm, and ST. Paul
> > Mayor Chris Coleman. It looks that most of you are
> > not too happy about it either and I don't blame you.
> >
> > >
> > >There's even a bigger problem here than what's on
> > the surface.
> > >
> > >
> > >One would expect such a meeting with the R's. But
> > not a Democrat.
> > >
> > >In recent years we've been electing Mayoral
> > candidates that APPEAR to be D's who are really
> > nothing more than R's in disguise. Going back, we
> > elected Norm, who even changed parties! Then, we
> > elected Randy, who claimed Democratic ties, only to
> > govern more like an R' than a D.
> > >
> > >In these past years, it's been the same old story
> > of camouflaged r's masquerading as D's. What ya see,
> > isn't what ya get. For the last decade or so, it's
> > been nothing more than a political / ideological
> > drag show at the Mayor's office.
> > >
> > >Kelly's decisive defeat was based on the collective
> > repudiation of conservative Republicanism and it's
> > values. Norm Coleman would not be elected Mayor of
> > St. Paul if he choose to run.
> > >
> > >
> > >Now, here comes Chris Coleman. A candidate, whose
> > history, sans a few questionable blemishes, was / is
> > supposedly, a solid Democrat.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >This whole meeting with FOMOCO brings up the BIG
> > question. Which is:
> > >What the hell was the Democratic Chris Coleman
> > doing in this meeting with Norm, the GOP towel-boy,
> > and Terrible Tim, the disgusting and unacceptable
> > Republican governor, crawling into bed with FOMOCO?
> > >
> > >
> > >One could expect this behavior from an R, but not
> > from a vibrant and enlighten D.
> > >A Democrat's approach to government is supposedly
> > different than the approach of a Republican. A
> > Democrat believes that governments' function is to
> > rule and regulate business, not to crawl in bed with
> > it.
> > >
> > >
> > >Did we elect Mr. Christopher Coleman, proud and
> > upstanding Democrat to lead this fine city OR did we
> > elect "Miss Chrissy" another republican in drag? Is
> > Chris Coleman just another political / ideological
> > cross-dresser, trying to "pass" as a Democrat?
> > >
> > >
> > >Wouldn't you just know it, but it gets worse.
> > >
> > >In politics, timing is everything. The Democrats
> > have always sought and received support from the
> > minority communities, like the G.L.B.T.
> > >
> > >Recently, FOMOCO has been caving into the religious
> > right and has pulled advertisements from the gay
> > publications and has adopted a strong anti-gay
> > company-wide policy.
> > >
> > >Where is Chris Coleman's awareness on this current
> > issue of the day? As a Democrat, he should have
> > clearly distanced himself from this company. Why is
> > "Miss Chris", insulting the G.L.B.T.?
> > >
> > >
> > >In other groups, I have warned against the election
> > of Chris Coleman. There were better candidates.
> > >
> > >Was I right⬦again?
> > >
> > >
> > >Rowdy Russ Hanson.
> > >The Truth in St. Paul.
> > >
> > >Russ Hanson
> > >
> > >More info:
> >
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/russhanson
> > >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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CORPORATE WELFARE ? I don't think so. 2000 quality jobs hopefully saved. This
is responsible government at work. Ford has a hybrid auto, and what a great
plant to produce the car. First, think about the impact to a Ford employees
family if they lost their job because nobody stepped up to the plate with Ford
to work this mess out. Threats of losing their homes because of unpaid
mortgages, auto repossesions, the mental anguish of facing financial troubles.
The arguments with loved ones over bills. Some obtaining welfare! The impact
all this would have on Ford family children. Here is why we, and I say we,
because if Ford employees lose their job we will all pay in someway or another
because 2000 lost jobs effects the economy. Some years back I managed a auto
salvage yard, and any experienced auto people will tell you the best cars are
Honda, Toyota, Nissan. There is a reason for this, and the blame doesn't sit
with Ford Motor Company. The blame sits with our unions here in America. The
unions have forced wages and benifits up so high that it has made it impossible
for our auto companies here to compete with overseas markets. Ford Motor
Company makes all kinds of vehicles, farm tractors, semi trucks, etc. all over
the world. It's Fords "American market" experiencing difficulty. I'm not a
Republican or a Democrat, I'm Libertarian. This isn't a party issue, it's an
attempt to devert a lot of pain and anquish on a large number of our friends
and neighbors.
"Some years back I managed a auto salvage yard, and any experienced auto people
will tell you the best cars are Honda, Toyota, Nissan. There is a reason for
this, and the blame doesn't sit with Ford Motor Company. The blame sits with
our unions here in America. The unions have forced wages and benifits up so
high that it has made it impossible for our auto companies here to compete with
overseas markets."
While I have no knowledge of their industrial production (tractors, etc.), I
wouldn't fully place the blame on the unions. I think a reason why the
Japanese automakers produce better cars is due to management. They simply
produce better cars. Is it the union's fault that the Ranger built here in St.
Paul hasn't been redesigned for years? Is it the union's fault that Ford's
cars are not as fuel efficient? Is it the union's fault that most american
automakers are behind the game when it comes to hybrid vehicles? Is it fully
the union's fault that automakers (i think GM) spends more on health insurance
than steel?
These Foreign auto manufacture have the money for research and development
because their not spending a good percentage of profits on a labor force that
has become priced out of a global market by union pressures. A certain airline
is facing the same problem now, and I wonder why no one is screaming help for
them. Few, sides with them because most of us know they are asking for
something that isn't there. It's not rational to expect something of an
employer they can't give. These kinds of pressures damage employers. People see
this and thats why Unions are losing their influence. I believe in workers
rights, we have state and federal laws to protect us in the work place. Are you
a union member Seth? If so have they ever done anything for you for all the
money you have given them. And if they have helped you, where do you think it
will lead in a rapidly expanding global market? You made a good point, there is
a number of contributing factors to Fords current situation. Unions and labor
cost are at the top of the list. To become competitive in a golbal market labor
cost have to come down in a varity of industries across america. Or we will
lose industries to overseas businesses. Texiles is an example of an industry
shift to overseas markets related to labor cost. Electronics is another
industry that has departed to overseas shores, all thanks to the demand of high
labor and medical cost here.
Bob:
I believe top-level corporate salaries in this country are much
farther out of line in relation to the world market than are those of
unionized workers. I assume, therefore, that you are thinking
especially of executives when you speak of the need to lower costs.
Chip Peterson
Macalester Groveland
On Jan 31, 2006, at 1:31 PM, Bob Johnson wrote:
>
> These Foreign auto manufacture have the money for research and
> development because their not spending a good percentage of profits
> on a labor force that has become priced out of a global market by
> union pressures. A certain airline is facing the same problem now,
> and I wonder why no one is screaming help for them. Few, sides with
> them because most of us know they are asking for something that
> isn't there. It's not rational to expect something of an employer
> they can't give. These kinds of pressures damage employers. People
> see this and thats why Unions are losing their influence. I believe
> in workers rights, we have state and federal laws to protect us in
> the work place. Are you a union member Seth? If so have they ever
> done anything for you for all the money you have given them. And if
> they have helped you, where do you think it will lead in a rapidly
> expanding global market? You made a good point, there is a number
> of contributing factors to Fords current situation. Unions
> and labor cost are at the top of the list. To become competitive
> in a golbal market labor cost have to come down in a varity of
> industries across america. Or we will lose industries to overseas
> businesses. Texiles is an example of an industry shift to overseas
> markets related to labor cost. Electronics is another industry that
> has departed to overseas shores, all thanks to the demand of high
> labor and medical cost here.
>
> Bob Johnson
> Highland
> More info: http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/bobjohnson
>
Okay, a show of hands. How many of you are willing to
give back 35% of your wages? 25%? 15%? 10%?
How many of you are now paying more for gasoline and
home heating fuel? How excessive was the Exxon
quarter profit? Add to this the story that the Exxon
profit will pale in contrast to those coming.
How many of the countries where businesses exist that
compete with American jobs pay for universal health
care? How many of these countries require a living
wage for the work being shipped to them by American
corporate leaders looking for a greater stock return?
How many of the companies that are now in financail
distress got there because they were allowed to spend
the money they put into legacy retirement programs
that are now underfunded?
How many of the supposed foreign automakers have the
same legacy retirement programs as the big three?
None! Not a single one. Why? Because they don't
have a whole lot of retirees yet.
What happens when your income gets cut at these rates?
The first thing I would do is stop discretionary
spending. That not only means major purchases like
vehicles to get to work as well as boats, snowmobiles
and other large priced toys. It also means reduced
spending for clothes, shoes, appliances, preventive
medical care, eating out, coffee, toys, video games,
cable and satellite TV, communication products like
mobile phones with all the bells and wistles when a
plain one would suffice, or TVs etc. Of course I
could go on with suggetions where spending will be
cut. My point is, when people start cutting back
because they can't spend, big corporations and little
mom and pop stores start to hurt and the stock market
begins to take a plunge.
When the market drops, corporations start cutting. We
begin a very nasty spiral into a serious recession or
depression.
Don't blame the unions because they have decent wages
and benefits. These were negotiated and agreed to by
the company. When the profits were up it was easy to
get increases in wages and benefits.
A comment on NWA. Their financial problems exist
because the company was stripped of its assets by Al
Checci and friends. They chose to go the route of
debt management rather than financial management of
its assets. It is not the employee who created the
problem.
--- Bob Johnson <email obscured>> wrote:
>
> These Foreign auto manufacture have the money for
> research and development because their not spending
> a good percentage of profits on a labor force that
> has become priced out of a global market by union
> pressures. A certain airline is facing the same
> problem now, and I wonder why no one is screaming
> help for them. Few, sides with them because most of
> us know they are asking for something that isn't
> there. It's not rational to expect something of an
> employer they can't give. These kinds of pressures
> damage employers. People see this and thats why
> Unions are losing their influence. I believe in
> workers rights, we have state and federal laws to
> protect us in the work place. Are you a union member
> Seth? If so have they ever done anything for you for
> all the money you have given them. And if they have
> helped you, where do you think it will lead in a
> rapidly expanding global market? You made a good
> point, there is a number of contributing factors to
> Fords current situation. Unions
> and labor cost are at the top of the list. To
> become competitive in a golbal market labor cost
> have to come down in a varity of industries across
> america. Or we will lose industries to overseas
> businesses. Texiles is an example of an industry
> shift to overseas markets related to labor cost.
> Electronics is another industry that has departed to
> overseas shores, all thanks to the demand of high
> labor and medical cost here.
>
> Bob Johnson
> Highland
> More info:
>
http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/bobjohnson
>
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Mr. Genz raises many river issues to which I will try to respond. But
for those not thrilled by river issues I will sum up in one word:
respect. We should respect the river for what it is naturally not what
we have manipulated it to be. We should have a great degree of respect
and appreciation for our natural surroundings. If you cannot get excited
about living at the confluence of the Mississippi and Minnesota Rivers
read no further. (If an excited someone can forward this to the
Minneapolis forum, please do so.)
As I write this, and it may be long, I am looking at the Bosse photos of
our river through the gorge from the 1880's. Understand that there is
one falls on the entire Mississippi, now riven by a lock and encased in
cement; there is one gorge on the entire Mississippi, which has largely
escaped development; and, there is one urban 7 mile stretch of white
water rapids, with the steepest drop of 73.7 feet, on the entire
Mississippi, now permanently flooded. Yes, I know what the river is; not
what it could be, but what it is. What we have now is a pool, not a
river. But the good news is there is a river running through the pool.
The river, which has not been seen in 80+ years, is there for us to
discover.
From the Corps of Engineers' 2003 Pool Plan for pool #1: "A number of
islands divided the historic river, but were removed to accommodate
9-foot draft vessels. For centuries, large blocks of limestone from the
collapsing falls created reefs and swift, impressive rapids extending 6
to 8 miles below where the falls exist today. [These islands could be
re-established and the blocks of limestone exist today and could be
dropped back into the river.] ... From the close of the
Pleistocene12,000 years ago until the construction of the locks and
dams, this steep, long rapids was one of the most significant ecological
features of the Upper Mississippi River, and was the terminus of up
river fish movement. The rapids were critical spawning grounds for a
number of river fish, such as sturgeon and suckers of various species.
... There is substantial interest in reclaiming the unique habitat
provided by the historic rapids."
The Pool Plan then goes on to suggest three possible ways to reclaim the
unique habitat: 1) conduct a short term draw down of the water level
during spring spawning season; 2) construct a secondary channel through
the gorge ... to mimic the rapids and still allow for commercial
navigation; 3) permanent draw down eliminating the 9 foot channel and
most commercial navigation.
This is the Corps of Engineers waxing poetic about our gorge!! And we
know commercial navigation is essentially eliminated with Minneapolis'
closing of its upper harbor.
To more specifically answer Mr. Genz: the pictures I am looking at show
a full bodied wide Mississippi even with snow at the banks - meaning at
low water - the depth is hard to gauge but I know the DNR has historic
depth readings and I would guess certain channels were greater than the
3 foot Mr. Genz suggests, but so what?? The issue is, or my issue anyway
is, one of respect for what the river is naturally and the ability of
the river to ebb and flood is critical to its health and habitat.
Access is now difficult or impossible with the exception of east river
flats, the boat house at Lake Street and the west side of the river
south of Lake Street. But with a narrower river access would be greatly
enhanced. It is estimated that a natural river would have 3-400 more
acres of parkland in the gorge than we have now. No, I would not
recommend additional Hidden-Falls-like river accesses, the ones I have
just mentioned should suffice. But it is critical to get people to use
the river.
Development is always a problem. And a natural river would attract both
good and bad development schemes. The people associated with the
multicolored upper landing project, whether planners, councilmembers,
developers or owners should be ashamed. What an abject eyesore, what an
insult to the River. And now we have the old power plant, west side
flats, and dikes galore. Yes this is a problem and has been for decades,
look at 740 River Road and the newly proposed high-rises at Marshall.
Again it comes down to a respect and appreciation for our natural
surroundings. The fact that the gorge is protected by federal law
(MNRRA) and state law (Critical Areas Act) should help, but I agree,
developers must be controlled by elected officials.
The timing for removing the locks and dams in the gorge has everything
to do with Minneapolis' closing of its upper harbor. What is the point
of maintaining the 9 foot channel if there is no destination?
You cannot remove Coon Rapids dam without first removing the lock at St.
Anthony falls. There has to be a point of blocking invasive species from
migrating upriver and locks do not do it. Now its the Coon Rapids dam.
The folks up north should deal with the dams up north - I do not know
those issues but generally would agree that rivers are meant to flow
naturally and freely. The gorge is litterally my back yard and I know it
and know what it should and can be.
And as to Ford: To maintain a 9 foot channel and three sets of locks and
dams at a cost of millions of dollars a year to afford Ford its
hydro-power valued at about 2 million a year is just silly stupid.
Brian Bates, MacGrove.
Greg Genz wrote:
>I would wonder what Mr. Bates would do with the river if there was no longer a
dam. There would still only be few safe accesses to the river and the 8' ft of
water over rapids would only happen for a short period of the year. If one
looks at pictures of the river, when the lower NSP hydro plant failed back in
the 1980's, you would see a a small respectable creek masquerading as the
Mighty Mississippi River. Average depth of the Mississippi, before the lock and
dam system, was only 3' in summer all the way to St. Louis. Like Phyllis Kahn
said at a public meeting in NE Mpls. a few years ago, ( My Paraphrasing) "We
need to use our natural resource dollars in places where we get the most bang
for our dollars, not in an industrialized urban river setting."
> Why would we take out a dam that has provided " clean green" energy for 83
yrs, when we have many other more viable dams to take out, that would provide
more environmental impact? We could start with Coon Rapids, which exists mostly
to prop up property values in Coon Rapids, Brooklyn Park, & Champlin. Then we
could work our way upriver to a bigger Corps of Engineers boondoggle than the
the 3 Twin City Locks, the Headwaters Projects with its' 5 dams, that impound
and impact thousands of acres of former Native American lands and related wild
rice beds. Million dollar "cabins" like those on Whitefish Chain, Gull Lake,
and soon to be Winnie area, and their politically astute(read influential
special interest money)owners and builders will never allow it.
> Look up sometime the Corps budgets on these sites. Talk about GW
complaining about the Corps' mission creep. ( An aside: the Corps operates more
campsites than the National Park Service.)
>
> I have learned to look at the river ecosystem and its' health as a whole. A
systemic approach must be used to address the overdevelopement of the
Headwaters downriver to the loss of approximately 30 sq. miles/yr. of Louisiana
marshland, not just what is in my backyard. I would grieve the loss of the Ford
plant and its' livable wages, but even more so I would grieve the potential of
developers to abuse even more of our riverfront. If you think you can hold off
the relentless hunger of riverfront developers, come down to the downtowns and
look at how multicolored architecture enhances our bluffs and floodplains. Look
at the so-called plans to "green" the Upper Mpls. Harbor. High-rise condos with
a concrete promontory for public access were not what the public had in mind,
but it was what developers and their city lackeys had in mind.
>
> Watch and see the hue and cry come from the Upper Landing residents when they
can't get to their $1 mil. townhomes because another hundred year flood puts 3'
of water on their Shepard Road - another river restricting levee goes up. In
talking to the public, I always point out, that when I was young-only poor
people lived on the riverbanks, now that I am older-only rich people live on
the riverbanks.
>
>Get off the bluffs, quit looking at the river like a painting in a museum, and
see what it is - a multi-use resource for all to appreciate.
How about Ford making cars that americans will want to buy at the prices that
they have to charge to finance these union jobs. We can try to keep these jobs
artificially for a while, but if Ford keeps over building cars or making cars
nobody wants well be in the same position were in now eventually and neither
democrats, republicans, greens or libertarians will be able to do anything for
these jobs.
He I'd like to pay my employees 80 bucks an hour and give them six figure a
year pensions? They work real hard and deserve it. Can the city of st paul give
me a subsidy? I'll move my business to st paul even. If the city subsidized
fifty small businesses like mine wed have the same effect.
Hmm. not going to happen. I guess ill have to settle for producing a preduct
people will want to buy.
Alberto Monserrate
Minneapolis
Sent with Wireless Sync from Verizon Wireless
---- Original Message ----
From: <email obscured>" <email obscured>>
Date: 1/31/06 9:25 am
To: <email obscured>" <email obscured>> ; <email obscured>"
<email obscured>>
Cc: <email obscured>" <email obscured>> ;
<email obscured>" <email obscured>>
Subj: Re: [SPIF] Ford Extorting Public
Dear Dave and Rowdy Russ (Popman),
I am amazed at your negative comments towards Democrats and Republicans. Your
rant about Republicans and Democrats is of little use to the solution at the
Ford plant. We should be working together with Ford in helping them keep the
plant open and thus saving 1700 union paying jobs. We should be looking at
alternative fuel cars being build at this plant. We should be looking at
multiple vehicle assemble at this plant. Involving the University of Minnesota
in alternative fuel development. These are some of the ideas of Democrats and
Republicans have come up with working together to keep jobs in St. Paul.
This unproductive talk does nothing to solve the problem. It only fuels hatred
and dislike. I can go on and on about this, but I feel that your comments
about Democrats and Republicans is off base. What is wrong with Democrats and
Republicans working together to save 1700 union paying jobs. I welcome these
individuals for putting aside their political differences and working together.
That is what is needed for St. Paul. Division does no good, it only pushes
people away.
Thanks,
John F. Krenik
Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
Bringing Common "Sense" back to St. Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: David Shove <email obscured>>
To: popman <email obscured>>
Cc: brian bates <email obscured>>; SPIF
<email obscured>>
Sent: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:14:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [SPIF] Ford Extorting Public
Right on.
Let's oppose all big boxes, chaninstores, TIF for retail, and all other
forms of corporate welfare for StPaul and area. The rich and their tools
(eg the StPaul Chamber of Commerce and all their lackeys) are our
implacable enemies. Let's declare StPaul a corporate-free zone.
"Mature" "responsible" "moderate" Dems that take corporate money are the
enemy. Don't vote for any of them. Think about dumping the
Alito-sanctioning Dems, for a third party. Every vote for Hillary is a
wasted vote. Every vote for a local corporate-money taking Dem is a wasted
vote - a vote in fact against democracy and freedom. We have let things go
so far to the right, all the remedies will be seen as radical.
--David Shove
Roseville
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, popman wrote:
> When ya sleep with the dogs of republicanism, ya wake
> up with the same ideological fleas. True Democrats
> don't consort with the captains of business. They
> oppose them.
>
>
> Yes it is corporate welfare but it doesn't need to
> continue now or into the future. You see, the more
> ideological purity we demand in Democratic leaders,
> the less corporate welfare we will have to suffer.
>
>
> Yes, FOMOCO should be paying premium for the use of
> our waterways and so should the broadcasters who use
> our airwaves for their own personal gain.
>
> Again, the more purity we demand, the more money in
> the city treasury available to assist the working
> classes in softening the ravages of hard -right
> capitalistic liberalism.
>
>
> Rowdy Russ Hanson.
> The Truth in St. Paul.
>
>
>
> --- brian bates <email obscured>> wrote:
>
> > Hey Rowdy - I understand your frustration with Norm
> > and Randy but the
> > jury is still out with Chris and going to a meeting
> > is really not a big
> > deal - if the mayor was not invited we would all
> > wonder why and be
> > critical of the process - if invited and the mayor
> > did not go, again we
> > would wonder why and probably be critical of Chris'
> > decision -
> >
> > But to more important matters - it looks like fomoco
> > is playing cities
> > off against each other - saying 7 manufacturing
> > sites will close and
> > then naming only three - and now everyone is lining
> > up to see how much
> > public largess we can come up with (I really do not
> > want to hear any
> > free market comments - usually the domain of
> > republicans - from anyone).
> > This is corporate welfare pure and simple - it has
> > been going on for
> > some time and will probably continue for some time.
> >
> > This is what I want - during these negotiations
> > where our
> > "representatives' give the kitchen sink to fomoco I
> > want these
> > representatives to demand one thing of fomoco in
> > return - I want our
> > river back!!!! fomoco has been using it to power
> > their plant for 80+
> > years and the river has suffered tremendously - give
> > it back!!! - get
> > your hydro power plant (worth about 2M a year -
> > corporate chump change -
> > if you do not count all the money the corps of
> > engineers spends to
> > maintain the 9 foot channel to Minneapolis' upper
> > harbor which is
> > closing!!!) out of there and allow the damn dams to
> > be removed - we will
> > even name the underlying rapids after Bill Ford or
> > Henry or whomever
> > just give us our river back!!!. (maybe too much
> > coffee!!!) Brian Bates,
> > MacGrove
> >
> > Russ Hanson wrote:
> >
> > >All of you have read about the recent meeting
> > involving FoMOCo and Pawlenty, Norm, and ST. Paul
> > Mayor Chris Coleman. It looks that most of you are
> > not too happy about it either and I don't blame you.
> >
> > >
> > >There's even a bigger problem here than what's on
> > the surface.
> > >
> > >
> > >One would expect such a meeting with the R's. But
> > not a Democrat.
> > >
> > >In recent years we've been electing Mayoral
> > candidates that APPEAR to be D's who are really
> > nothing more than R's in disguise. Going back, we
> > elected Norm, who even changed parties! Then, we
> > elected Randy, who claimed Democratic ties, only to
> > govern more like an R' than a D.
> > >
> > >In these past years, it's been the same old story
> > of camouflaged r's masquerading as D's. What ya see,
> > isn't what ya get. For the last decade or so, it's
> > been nothing more than a political / ideological
> > drag show at the Mayor's office.
> > >
> > >Kelly's decisive defeat was based on the collective
> > repudiation of conservative Republicanism and it's
> > values. Norm Coleman would not be elected Mayor of
> > St. Paul if he choose to run.
> > >
> > >
> > >Now, here comes Chris Coleman. A candidate, whose
> > history, sans a few questionable blemishes, was / is
> > supposedly, a solid Democrat.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >This whole meeting with FOMOCO brings up the BIG
> > question. Which is:
> > >What the hell was the Democratic Chris Coleman
> > doing in this meeting with Norm, the GOP towel-boy,
> > and Terrible Tim, the disgusting and unacceptable
> > Republican governor, crawling into bed with FOMOCO?
> > >
> > >
> > >One could expect this behavior from an R, but not
> > from a vibrant and enlighten D.
> > >A Democrat's approach to government is supposedly
> > different than the approach of a Republican. A
> > Democrat believes that governments' function is to
> > rule and regulate business, not to crawl in bed with
> > it.
> > >
> > >
> > >Did we elect Mr. Christopher Coleman, proud and
> > upstanding Democrat to lead this fine city OR did we
> > elect "Miss Chrissy" another republican in drag? Is
> > Chris Coleman just another political / ideological
> > cross-dresser, trying to "pass" as a Democrat?
> > >
> > >
> > >Wouldn't you just know it, but it gets worse.
> > >
> > >In politics, timing is everything. The Democrats
> > have always sought and received support from the
> > minority communities, like the G.L.B.T.
> > >
> > >Recently, FOMOCO has been caving into the religious
> > right and has pulled advertisements from the gay
> > publications and has adopted a strong anti-gay
> > company-wide policy.
> > >
> > >Where is Chris Coleman's awareness on this current
> > issue of the day? As a Democrat, he should have
> > clearly distanced himself from this company. Why is
> > "Miss Chris", insulting the G.L.B.T.?
> > >
> > >
> > >In other groups, I have warned against the election
> > of Chris Coleman. There were better candidates.
> > >
> > >Was I rightagain?
> > >
> > >
> > >Rowdy Russ Hanson.
> > >The Truth in St. Paul.
> > >
> > >Russ Hanson
> > >
> > >More info:
> >
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/russhanson
> > >
> > >- - - - - - - - - - -
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> > >email <email obscured> with
> > "unsubscribe" as the subject
> > >
> > >This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> > >http://forums.e-democracy.org/topic/81987
> > >
> > >For digest or to update bio options (must log-in):
> >
> >http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/groups/stpaul-issues/
> > >
> > >Citizens Guide to St. Paul
> >
> >http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul
> > >
> > >Hosted by http://e-democracy.org
> > >- - - - - - - - - - -
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> Russ Hanson
>
> More info: http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul/contacts/russhanson
>
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Dave Shove
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November 29, 2005, 8:19 a.m.
Labor Pains
Detroit needs to play by market rules.
By Henry Payne
Detroit, Michigan Massive job cuts at General Motors, America's largest
carmaker coupled with the bankruptcy of Delphi, America's biggest autoparts
maker have provoked predictable handwringing from liberal pundits who worry
that America is "losing its manufacturing base." But the wrenching change now
buffeting the auto industry defies the usual press formulas. Just listen to
Steve Miller a turnaround specialist who is steering Delphi's restructuring
process. He exploded the myth of America's "endangered" union manufacturing
jobs at his October press conference announcing Delphi's move into Chapter 11:
"We cannot continue to pay $65 an hour for someone to cut the grass and remain
competitive."
Grass cutting is a manufacturing job?
Miller's frank assessment of unsustainable labor contracts is a refreshing dose
of candor in an industry that for too long has talked around union-labor costs
in a way that is totally divorced from the realities of the U.S. labor market
much less the global labor market.
While America's national press has gleefully covered the front-office
shenanigans of Republican fat cats like Enron's Ken Lay, it has entirely missed
the disease eating away at the roots of American manufacturing: Behind the
threat of strike, greedy Democratic union bosses have built an unsustainable
entitlement-wage culture that is now crashing spectacularly in America's
heartland, disrupting lives, and threatening some of America's biggest publicly
traded companies.
Take grass cutting. As defined by the current United Auto Worker contract
negotiated with the "Big Five" (GM, Ford, Chrysler, and top parts makers Delphi
and Visteon), an auto "production worker" is a job description that covers
anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets. In the real world, these
jobs would be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet
Big Five, these jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average $26
an hour ($60,000 a year) plus benefits that bring the company's total cost per
worker to a staggering $65 an hour.
But at least the grass cutters are working for their pay. The UAW contract also
guarantees that 12,000 autoworkers get full wage for doing nothing. On the
heels of Miller's straight-talk, the Detroit News reported that "12,000
American autoworkers, instead of bending sheet metal, spend their days counting
the hours in a jobs bank." These aren't jobs. And they certainly aren't being
"lost" to China.
"We just go in (to Ford's Michigan Truck Plant) and play crossword puzzles,
watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," The News quoted one
UAW worker as saying. "Otherwise, I've just sat."
For Delphi, this idled labor cost $400 million in the second quarter of this
year alone. Facing similar numbers until the contract's end in 2007, Delphi
took refuge in bankruptcy. "The jobs bank must be eliminated," says Miller.
"Paying people not to work is just not sustainable."
As the auto companies have increased productivity through automation, the UAW
calculated that jobs banks would make it too expensive for automakers to close
plants and lay off workers. While that plan has worked, it has severely damaged
the long-term viability of the industry and by extension, future job creation.
It also led to this week's GM bloodbath, as the company struggles to close a
wage gap with American internationals (foreign automakers manufacturing in the
U.S.) that now stands at $1319 per vehicle produced.
Simply put, Big Three autoworkers have been living in a fantasy world.
Statistics tell the tale. In his landmark study of the 2003 Big Five contract,
Sean McLinden of the Center for Automotive Research (CAR) found that "in 1960,
the UAW was 16 percent higher than the overall U.S. wage rate. . . . By 2003,
the UAW average rate (with COLA) was 68-percent higher than the average
manufacturing rate of $15.74 an hour."
McLinden notes that the contract reads as if autoworkers labor in a vacuum,
without regard for market forces. "The workers involved will not lose their
jobs at the company they must be transferred to other facilities, bought out,
voluntarily retired, or supported by protected status programs (jobs banks).
Workers who refuse to transfer after layoff will... eventually be paid 100
percent of their straight pay. Indeed, UAW employment can only fall at the rate
of natural retirement."
Furthermore, UAW members are guaranteed a traditional "30 years and out"
provision, meaning that many retirees begin drawing full pensions in their
early Fifties, burdening the Big Five with unrivaled legacy costs. Delphi, for
example, shoulders $22 per worker-hour in legacy costs compared to as little as
25 cents for independent competitors like Leer and Johnson Controls.
Miller stresses that Delphi's competition for these jobs are not foreign
laborers in China or Mexico but workers right here in the Unites States. Given
the huge productivity advantages of U.S. factories, relatively high-paid
American autoworkers remain competitive with Mexican workers paid $3 an hour.
CAR's McLinden confirms this. His analysis of independent suppliers (workers
not covered by the fat Big Five contract) covering 19,379 UAW members in the
U.S. found an "average wage of $15.76 an hour remarkably close to the $15.77
per hour U.S. average manufacturing wage in 2003."
Miller does not deny that some labor-intensive auto-parts jobs (such as spark
plugs manufacturing) must be moved abroad. But in production, where assembly,
transportation, or quality are key factors (in the making of dashboards, for
example), manufacturers will rely on U.S. workers assuming they don't cost two
to four times the market rate. Indeed, Japanese manufacturers and their
suppliers have created 60,000 good-paying jobs for Americans.
The coming months will be painful for many American autoworkers. Accustomed to
a certain lifestyle, they will see their wages cut in half, jeopardizing second
homes, college tuitions, and car payments. One blue-collar Delphi worker
interviewed by the Detroit News makes $103,000 a year operating a forklift and
fears the consequences if his pay is drastically reduced. But many Americans
will ask how a forklift operator felt entitled to a six-figure income in the
first place (according to Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average forklift
operator wage in the U.S. is $26,000).
It is an opportune time for political leadership to step to the plate and speak
with candor, but the signs are not encouraging.
UAW leaders are threatening strikes, and their Democratic allies are parroting
tired slogans of government bailouts and trade protectionism. Michigan's
Democratic governor Jennifer Granholm recently traveled to Washington, D.C. to
stump for auto-import tariffs, while Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton demanded
President Bush convene a "manufacturing summit" to examine a taxpayer bailout
for the Big Five's "enormous legacy costs, including paying the health care and
pensions of retirees."
These dinosaurs insist on turning back the clock, but Steve Miller understands
that America's manufacturing future will only be lost if it loses sight of
market economics: "We are in a market for human capital," he explains "If you
pay too much for a particular class of employee, you go broke."
. Henry Payne is a Detroit freelance writer and editorial cartoonist for the
Detroit News.
My response to Mr. Krenik.
What's wrong with d's and r's working together?
Divisiveness?
You may be unaware of the KIND of country we all live
in.
We ARE divided country and have been since its'
inception! Have you heard of the checks and balances?
We are, for the most part, a two party system.
You must have been thinking about Rodney Kings' famous
utteranceÂ
"Can't we all just get along?" The answer is
no, we can't, and we're not supposed to.
Capitalism, also, demands division.
Labor vs. Management.
Haves vs. the Have Nots.
Producer vs. comsumer.
Socially, we have:
Men vs. Women.
White vs. Non-white.
D's and r's are supposed to have completely different
and opposite agendas. There are, at least, two
different Americas.
Capitalism IS about competition and combativeness,
while, true Socialism, which has gotten a bum rap, is
about non-competiveness and the spirit of cooperation
and unity for the good of all, at the EXPENSE of all.
Are you a capitalist, or, a non-capitalist? If you
don't know, take my little test and ask yourself this
question: "Do you cash paychecks or do you issue
paychecks?"
If you cash them, you are NOT a capitalist. You work
for them.
At the bottom line, what's good for management is
automatically bad for Labor and vice versa. Paychecks
are the enemy of profits. Yes, they are in opposition
to each other.
The bottom line is divided not only vertically but
also horizontally. Which side of the line are you on?
Many D's don't know, which gives stimulus to the
explanation of why so many of them cross the line and
vote for the opposition. The d's are usually not class
conscience while r's usually are and rarely vote
against their own interests. We tend see more d's
voting for r's than r's voting for d's.
Mayor Coleman is seen as a Democrat. He is expected to
rule and regulate business interests (capitalists) not
climb into bed with them. The r's, on the other hand,
can be expected to do just that, ie: Senator Coleman
and Gov. Tim. For the r's it's about jobs, jobs, jobs.
For a D's, properly educated, it's about income. Any D
talking about jobs should have their mouths washed out
with soap!
I'm sorry it took so long to respond. My posting time
as taken up by the Vick trial.
Rowdy Russ Hanson.
The Truth in St. Paul.
Dear Dave and Rowdy Russ (Popman),
I am amazed at your negative comments towards
Democrats and Republicans. Your rant about
Republicans and Democrats is of little use to the
solution at the Ford plant. We should be working
together with Ford in helping them keep the plant open
and thus saving 1700 union paying jobs. We should be
looking at alternative fuel cars being build at this
plant. We should be looking at multiple vehicle
assemble at this plant. Involving the University of
Minnesota in alternative fuel development. These are
some of the ideas of Democrats and Republicans have
come up with working together to keep jobs in St.
Paul.
This unproductive talk does nothing to solve the
problem. It only fuels hatred and dislike. I can go
on and on about this, but I feel that your comments
about Democrats and Republicans is off base. What is
wrong with Democrats and Republicans working together
to save 1700 union paying jobs. I welcome these
individuals for putting aside their political
differences and working together. That is what is
needed for St. Paul. Division does no good, it only
pushes people away.
Thanks,
John F. Krenik
Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
Bringing Common "Sense" back to St. Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: David Shove <email obscured>>
To: popman <email obscured>>
Cc: brian bates <email obscured>>; SPIF
<email obscured>>
Sent: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:14:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [SPIF] Ford Extorting Public
Right on.
Let's oppose all big boxes, chaninstores, TIF for
retail, and all other
forms of corporate welfare for StPaul and area. The
rich and their tools
(eg the StPaul Chamber of Commerce and all their
lackeys) are our
implacable enemies. Let's declare StPaul a
corporate-free zone.
"Mature" "responsible" "moderate" Dems that take
corporate money are the
enemy. Don't vote for any of them. Think about dumping
the
Alito-sanctioning Dems, for a third party. Every vote
for Hillary is a
wasted vote. Every vote for a local corporate-money
taking Dem is a wasted
vote - a vote in fact against democracy and freedom.
We have let things go
so far to the right, all the remedies will be seen as
radical.
--David Shove
Roseville
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, popman wrote:
> When ya sleep with the dogs of republicanism, ya
wake
> up with the same ideological fleas. True Democrats
> don't consort with the captains of business. They
> oppose them.
>
>
> Yes it is corporate welfare but it doesn't need to
> continue now or into the future. You see, the more
> ideological purity we demand in Democratic leaders,
> the less corporate welfare we will have to suffer.
>
>
> Yes, FOMOCO should be paying premium for the use of
> our waterways and so should the broadcasters who use
> our airwaves for their own personal gain.
>
> Again, the more purity we demand, the more money in
> the city treasury available to assist the working
> classes in softening the ravages of hard -right
> capitalistic liberalism.
>
>
> Rowdy Russ Hanson.
> The Truth in St. Paul.
>
>
>
> --- brian bates <email obscured>> wrote:
>
> > Hey Rowdy - I understand your frustration with
Norm
> > and Randy but the
> > jury is still out with Chris and going to a
meeting
> > is really not a big
> > deal - if the mayor was not invited we would all
> > wonder why and be
> > critical of the process - if invited and the mayor
> > did not go, again we
> > would wonder why and probably be critical of
Chris'
> > decision -
> >
> > But to more important matters - it looks like
fomoco
> > is playing cities
> > off against each other - saying 7 manufacturing
> > sites will close and
> > then naming only three - and now everyone is
lining
> > up to see how much
> > public largess we can come up with (I really do
not
> > want to hear any
> > free market comments - usually the domain of
> > republicans - from anyone).
> > This is corporate welfare pure and simple - it has
> > been going on for
> > some time and will probably continue for some
time.
> >
> > This is what I want - during these negotiations
> > where our
> > "representatives' give the kitchen sink to fomoco
I
> > want these
> > representatives to demand one thing of fomoco in
> > return - I want our
> > river back!!!! fomoco has been using it to power
> > their plant for 80+
> > years and the river has suffered tremendously -
give
> > it back!!! - get
> > your hydro power plant (worth about 2M a year -
> > corporate chump change -
> > if you do not count all the money the corps of
> > engineers spends to
> > maintain the 9 foot channel to Minneapolis' upper
> > harbor which is
> > closing!!!) out of there and allow the damn dams
to
> > be removed - we will
> > even name the underlying rapids after Bill Ford or
> > Henry or whomever
> > just give us our river back!!!. (maybe too much
> > coffee!!!) Brian Bates,
> > MacGrove
> >
> > Russ Hanson wrote:
> >
> > >All of you have read about the recent meeting
> > involving FoMOCo and Pawlenty, Norm, and ST. Paul
> > Mayor Chris Coleman. It looks that most of you are
> > not too happy about it either and I don't blame
you.
> >
> > >
> > >There's even a bigger problem here than what's on
> > the surface.
> > >
> > >
> > >One would expect such a meeting with the R's. But
> > not a Democrat.
> > >
> > >In recent years we've been electing Mayoral
> > candidates that APPEAR to be D's who are really
> > nothing more than R's in disguise. Going back, we
> > elected Norm, who even changed parties! Then, we
> > elected Randy, who claimed Democratic ties, only
to
> > govern more like an R' than a D.
> > >
> > >In these past years, it's been the same old story
> > of camouflaged r's masquerading as D's. What ya
see,
> > isn't what ya get. For the last decade or so, it's
> > been nothing more than a political / ideological
> > drag show at the Mayor's office.
> > >
> > >Kelly's decisive defeat was based on the
collective
> > repudiation of conservative Republicanism and it's
> > values. Norm Coleman would not be elected Mayor of
> > St. Paul if he choose to run.
> > >
> > >
> > >Now, here comes Chris Coleman. A candidate, whose
> > history, sans a few questionable blemishes, was /
is
> > supposedly, a solid Democrat.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >This whole meeting with FOMOCO brings up the BIG
> > question. Which is:
> > >What the hell was the Democratic Chris Coleman
> > doing in this meeting with Norm, the GOP
towel-boy,
> > and Terrible Tim, the disgusting and unacceptable
> > Republican governor, crawling into bed with
FOMOCO?
> > >
> > >
> > >One could expect this behavior from an R, but not
> > from a vibrant and enlighten D.
> > >A Democrat's approach to government is supposedly
> > different than the approach of a Republican. A
> > Democrat believes that governments' function is to
> > rule and regulate business, not to crawl in bed
with
> > it.
> > >
> > >
> > >Did we elect Mr. Christopher Coleman, proud and
> > upstanding Democrat to lead this fine city OR did
we
> > elect "Miss Chrissy" another republican in drag?
Is
> > Chris Coleman just another political / ideological
> > cross-dresser, trying to "pass" as a Democrat?
> > >
> > >
> > >Wouldn't you just know it, but it gets worse.
> > >
> > >In politics, timing is everything. The Democrats
> > have always sought and received support from the
> > minority communities, like the G.L.B.T.
> > >
> > >Recently, FOMOCO has been caving into the
religious
> > right and has pulled advertisements from the gay
> > publications and has adopted a strong anti-gay
> > company-wide policy.
> > >
> > >Where is Chris Coleman's awareness on this
current
> > issue of the day? As a Democrat, he should have
> > clearly distanced himself from this company. Why
is
> > "Miss Chris", insulting the G.L.B.T.?
> > >
> > >
> > >In other groups, I have warned against the
election
> > of Chris Coleman. There were better candidates.
> > >
> > >Was I rightâ¦again?
> > >
> > >
> > >Rowdy Russ Hanson.
> > >The Truth in St. Paul.
> > >
> > >Russ Hanson
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