All posts in the topic So who's right Coleman or Thune on 24 hr health clubs
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- There are 45 posts — by 21 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Jamie Delton at 2008 May 07 12:13 UTC
Hi All, I was going to post this earlier, but I wanted to wait and see if anyone here would post it, as it is a major discussion over at the Pioneer Press with over 107 comments to the story. On Friday, the city won a court victory in its crackdown on 24 hour health clubs because they don't have trained medical workers on-site constantly. It seems St. Paul has one of the most restrictive ordinances in the nation according to the story. The inspectors said they were enforcing an ordinance — which stems from 1980s sex-club crackdowns — requiring fitness clubs to have a CPR-trained person "on duty" at all times. A link to the Pioneer Press story: http://www.twincities.com/ci_8975738 It seems that our mayor, Chris Coleman and Dave Thune are at opposite ends of this issue. Chris Coleman says, "We're like the only city anywhere that doesn't allow these things," he said. "It can't be OK everywhere else and be somehow more risky in St. Paul." The St. Paul Area Chamber of Commerce also supports Coleman’s opinion. Dave Thune said, "Let him try to get four votes. If they want to fight on this thing, I will get neighborhood groups and district councils who have suffered at the hands of adult bookstores to fight back." Minneapolis has seven of these fitness clubs. So who is correct, Chris Coleman or Dave Thune? Sincerely, John Krenik Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
You have to admire a crusader like Mr. Krenik standing up for his rights to
keep 24-hr. health care, but isn't health care costly enough in this country
already?
Putting aside the argument that the requirement of a CPR trained individual at a "health club" was originally placed in the ordinance to stop the proliferation of massage parlors/adult bookstores posing as "health clubs" - this is a CONSUMER SAFETY ISSUE: If I am exercising anywhere (I belong to Curves), it won't be where I likely might be alone in the facility (no staff), then suffering an injury or a heart attack and dragging my lifeless body to a "panic button" in order to summon help. There must be statistics (ohsa?) on these facilities regarding injuries or deaths there (with no supervision/staff). Even if there are no reports of any deaths or seriously harm - I would hate to be the first one..... Gloria Bogen West Side = Best Side <email obscured><email obscured>> ----- Original Message ----- From: John <email obscured>> To: St. Paul Issues <email obscured>> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: [SPIF] So who's right Coleman or Thune on 24 hr health clubs Hi All, I was going to post this earlier, but I wanted to wait and see if anyone here would post it, as it is a major discussion over at the Pioneer Press with over 107 comments to the story. On Friday, the city won a court victory in its crackdown on 24 hour health clubs because they don't have trained medical workers on-site constantly. It seems St. Paul has one of the most restrictive ordinances in the nation according to the story. The inspectors said they were enforcing an ordinance which stems from 1980s sex-club crackdowns requiring fitness clubs to have a CPR-trained person "on duty" at all times. A link to the Pioneer Press story: http://www.twincities.com/ci_8975738<http://www.twincities.com/ci_8975738> It seems that our mayor, Chris Coleman and Dave Thune are at opposite ends of this issue. Chris Coleman says, "We're like the only city anywhere that doesn't allow these things," he said. "It can't be OK everywhere else and be somehow more risky in St. Paul." The St. Paul Area Chamber of Commerce also supports Colemans opinion. Dave Thune said, "Let him try to get four votes. If they want to fight on this thing, I will get neighborhood groups and district councils who have suffered at the hands of adult bookstores to fight back." Minneapolis has seven of these fitness clubs. So who is correct, Chris Coleman or Dave Thune? Sincerely, John Krenik Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota John Krenik Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota Info about John Krenik: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/johnkrenik<http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/johnkrenik> This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4g1bLnacYfiDyfHEUHiDSf<http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4g1bLnacYfiDyfHEUHiDSf> ----------------------------------------- To post, send your message to: <email obscured><email obscured>> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," in subject line and send to: <email obscured><email obscured>> More info about St. Paul Issues Forum: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues<http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules<http://e-democracy.org/rules> ----------------------------------------- Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net<http://onlinegroups.net/> Citizens Guide to St. Paul http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul<http://e-democracyorg/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul> Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and items for investigation to: <email obscured><email obscured>>
> If I am exercising anywhere (I belong to Curves), it won't be where I likely
might be alone in the facility (no staff), then suffering an injury or a heart
attack and dragging my lifeless body to a "panic button" in order to summon
help. There must be statistics (ohsa?) on these facilities regarding injuries
or deaths there (with no supervision/staff). Even if there are no reports of
any deaths or seriously harm - I would hate to be the first one.....
In this case, you don't go when you would put yourself in this
situation. belonging to a club that is open 24 hours doesn't mean you
have to go at all hours of the day.
John Harris
webber-camden, mpls
I belong to the Anytime Fitness near Davern and W. 7th. Basically, my monthly
membership fee gives me access to all the workout equipment I could ever want.
I don't have to purchase the equipment or find a place in my house to keep it
I am guessing that people have very short memories of what we were dealing with in "health clubs" just a few years ago. The typical "health club" that had no professional staff had a name like... Racquel's Rapp, or the Playboy Club or Sussie's Sauna. These clubs did have staff members that frequently would offer healthful ways to reduce stress by giving "private workouts" or "healing massages" behind closed doors. The ordinance was written to stop these kinds of activities from occurring in our neighborhoods. So, for those of you who think you don't need the ordinance to protect your community, I would encourage you to call your council member and ask that your neighborhood be allowed to have massage parlors and other nonprofessional health clubs, health spa's and sauna's. I would be pleased to assist you in drafting the language that would allow the streets in your neighborhood to have them without my neighborhood having to put up with that crap again. One of the benefits that you will get is other entrepreneurs who will work the streets and all of their customers. But, don't assume for a second that those of us who have had to fight to protect our neighborhoods from this kind of crap are going to just roll over because you are to cheep to go to a gym that has staff. Just My Opinion Not Those Of My Employers Past Present Or Future Chuck Repke **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
I am not sure how many of us forgot about the city's issues with "Health Clubs". I certainly did not. These workout facilities are nothing like those Health Clubs. Anyone who connects the two are stretching the issues. One group was a setting for "massages" and were a front for prostitution. The other is a work out facility. I don't know how anyone could argue that Anytime Fitness or any other type of fitness club is anything like the former. If we are so concerned about ensuring someone who is trained in CPR is on staff when they are open, how about changing the rule to making sure there are a couple of AEDs on the premises? Maybe its time the city look at its ordinances to see whether they make sense. This one sure doesn't <email obscured> wrote: I am guessing that people have very short memories of what we were dealing with in "health clubs" just a few years ago. The typical "health club" that had no professional staff had a name like... Racquel's Rapp, or the Playboy Club or Sussie's Sauna. These clubs did have staff members that frequently would offer healthful ways to reduce stress by giving "private workouts" or "healing massages" behind closed doors. The ordinance was written to stop these kinds of activities from occurring in our neighborhoods. So, for those of you who think you don't need the ordinance to protect your community, I would encourage you to call your council member and ask that your neighborhood be allowed to have massage parlors and other nonprofessional health clubs, health spa's and sauna's. I would be pleased to assist you in drafting the language that would allow the streets in your neighborhood to have them without my neighborhood having to put up with that crap again. One of the benefits that you will get is other entrepreneurs who will work the streets and all of their customers. But, don't assume for a second that those of us who have had to fight to protect our neighborhoods from this kind of crap are going to just roll over because you are to cheep to go to a gym that has staff. Just My Opinion Not Those Of My Employers Past Present Or Future Chuck Repke **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) Chuck Repke West 7th, Saint Paul Info about Chuck Repke: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/chuckrepke This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2bfCwEbI4l0FyIIXSrja79
Saunas, bathouses, massage parlors, fitness centers, discussion centers,
photography studios, poolhalls... each of these offered up their services
in St. Paul over the years. Fronts for prostitution, they were obviously
quite different for legit, non-sex businesses. Trouble is, every one of
these businesses, their owners and attorneys maintained that they "were"
legitimate and if anything else untoward was going on, they were unaware of
it". Certain crack attorneys got rich defending these places and winning!
After years of futility, the city and its licensing and legal staff wrote
laws to protect the public from unlawful activites and to protect health and
safety. One clause: Business-owners must have a responsible staff person on
premises at all times to enforce their policies and assist patrons.
Any business that offers equipment for use - barbells, treadmills, etc.
really ought to have a trained staffer there when you are. Take a look at
the health clubs that really care about the services they offer - they take
safety seriously, whether its spotting the guy doing bench presses, or
helping a person rebound from a heart attack. You can argue
self-responsibility all you want, but when the city licenses a business we
also have a responsibility to our citizens. What good is a videotape seen
24 hours after an injury or assault by a service in Texas?
Some respond that "of course women shouldn't be out using these things at 3
AM" - boy thats really saying something - mainly that it really isn't safe
for someone (male or female) to be alone in a storefront, bathroom or locker
room in the dark hours of the night.
These were reasons the city wisely chose to regulate health/fitness/massage/
etc. a number of years ago.
Then, neighborhoods were plagued by businesses posing as fronts for
prostitution. Even Grand Avenue had the Red Carpet Sauna!
But that was long ago I guess. You younger folks don't realize that many
neighbors risked their lives - literally - picketing, petitioning city hall,
hiring their own attorneys for years as their daughters had to walk by these
creepy places on the way to school or the bus stop.
The result is, today we have zero sex shops. I make no apologies that St.
Paul does not want, or want to cater to people who want to buy sex - whether
its strip clubs, peep shows or saunas. Yes - they have them in Minneapolis,
but we simply have thought more highly of women and families than many other
big cities.
The proponents of these new 24/7 facilities don't really care about the
pandora's box they want us to open. They are simply cashing in while they
put Frogtown, W7th, Selby Dale, University Ave. and the Eastside at risk of
the same blight we experienced thruout the seventies and eighties.
So anyway, the above is why I and many others feel so strongly about not
turning back the clock.
Just please don't tell me that the big push for these gyms is coming from
Republican lobbyists... please... :-)
dave
ward 2 - st. paul
This is a very interesting issue. You have safety, health, business models,
crime, vice, insurance, legal, et al, all rolled into one.
As for myself, my health club is right out my back door. Most of St. Paul is a
great place to run and I have been running for over 30 years with no
incident(even during many many late evening runs through neighborhoods,
commercial areas, and deserted parks and around lakes). Over 20 yrs were in
Mpls. I've never been a health club member, except for awhile at a YMCA, where
my wife swam and we took our daughters years ago for swimming, gymnastics, etc.
Having said that, I asked my daughter, who is a mother, traditional health club
member with her husband, is a runner (some marathons as myself), and an
attorney, what she thought. Her first thought was that she would feel unsafe
being alone in a health club at night and thought of the insurance and legal
issues, even if members sign waivers. She had not read the newspaper article.
So, I guess its where you are coming from, safety concerns, finances, etc, as
to how you stand on the issue. I can see the pros and cons. I believe some
people will thrive in a health club like this and would save money. Actually
you can save lots more money by getting a reasonably priced treadmill, and
putting it in your basement in front of a TV. I've had one for 15-20 yrs, but
only use it about a half dozen times a year. Outside is really the way to go.
But, then again some do not have a basement (apt or condo) and like the club
atmosphere.
As for the other aspects, the law can be amended to allow actual defined health
sports clubs and the bad sauna type places out. The same can be done for
insurance and safety issues, since these kinds of places are prevalent in many
other states. It appears that there has not been a large outcry from competing
traditional health clubs.
Gary Thompson
Hard not to notice, John, how your subject line and post encourages us
to divide ourselves on these issues.
I mean, one can disagree on the issue without siding with one person
or the other overall. My Mayor and my Councilmember disagree on some
issues, but have agreed on many others. And where they disagree,
sometimes I agree with one, and sometimes I agree with the other.
You ask us to take sides not on the issue, but on which elected
official we side with, and that's where things tend to get unhelpfully
divisive, and generally lowers the level of conversation.
I can take one side or the other on a given issue without needing to
be "for" or "against" a person, thank you very much.
In a message dated 4/20/2008 7:57:26 AM Central Daylight Time, <email obscured> writes: One group was a setting for "massages" and were a front for prostitution. The other is a work out facility. I don't know how anyone could argue that Anytime Fitness or any other type of fitness club is anything like the former. -snip- And when the "new health clubs" that open up under this liberation of the ordinance that allows anyone with no license to open a "health club" with no supervisory staff happen to become fronts for prostitution "Big Sam's health club home of the unisex changing rooms..." How exactly do you propose to put the Genie back into the bottle? "I mean people are allowed to change in a health club aren't they? And if one of our members happened to be looking through a hole in the wall that we didn't know was there, we couldn't be held responsible, we are a "health club"... we couldn't know what was going on in the "VIP members changing rooms..." I have seen this show before. Like I said call up your Council Member and let him or her know that you want unregulated, unsupervised, health clubs, message parlors, health spas, and fitness centers on your street corner. JMONTOMEPPOF Chuck Repke **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
"24 hour fitness center or whore house?"
I'd love to see that headline in the PP.
Dave has done a great job of serving St. Paul and the residents of Ward 2.
I don't agree 100% with some of the causes he's hitched his wagon to over
the years,
but as a resident in this Ward for 14 years, I have found Dave to be 100%
responsive whenever I've had
the need to contact him and he's always been willing to meet in person to
address
any concerns.
Are we being honest with each other when we frame this as a safety issue? It
appears
to be about a generation of activists who worked hard to get rid of sex
shops in St. Paul and don't want to
see their work trampled on. Fair enough. Thanks for the hard work. St. Paul
is a better place because of it.
That said, this ordinance should be re-written to allow for 24 hour fitness
centers. As a city, we should remain
open, flexible and willing to work with new businesses.
However, these business owners need to have a crystal clear understanding of
the $#&*storm that will rain down on them if their
establishment becomes a "sex *stop*".
Talk with them, get everyone on the same page and let the gyms operate under
their current business models.
I'm quite sensitive to the concerns about prostitution and impacts on
neighborhoods.
If we can help it, I don't think its desirable to have the reputation
of being among the most heavily-regulated cities either - though I
balance that concern with many others, like impacts on neighborhoods.
Regulation is often both necessary and good, but can also be excessive
and unnecessarily bureaucratic.
So I'm just curious if anyone's open to the idea that there's there a
middle ground that is workable? Maybe, maybe not. Allow me to think
aloud...
For example, all 24-hour health clubs must have at least one person
actively monitoring the centers somewhere in the City at all times,
must have a video complete monitoring of all public areas, audio
monitoring of all public areas, and must do a complete in-person
security check of each facility every 2 or 3 hours.
Again, just thinking aloud, from outside the issue.
Bob
I'm glad John brought this up. I've had some thoughts on this topic. Blocking 24-hour Spas on such a minor code component is pointless. This is an important job growth issue and a quality of life issue. Dave Thune with all due respect your personal claim to anti-porn efforts and your claim that whatever code in place requiring expensive medical emergency expertise to be on site cannot be changed, are both ridiculous. You are saying the local law alone compels those of us in free enterprise business not to choose a porn oriented livlihood. Strong local law helps, but what a callous selfish way to marginalize the important role of Christian values in public policy and public enterprise. Dave Thune is quoted as saying "the 24-hour on-duty requirement is key to keeping tawdry activities away." The 24-hour on-duty requirement is NOT key to keeping tawdry activities away. We can re-draft the St. Paul city ordinance, MN statute, or Health Department rule to waive the 24-hour on-duty requirement for so-called "Super Spas" without allowing prostitution fronts to regain a foothold. Legal Sex services companies fall under the Concierge/Escort/Dating services category - class code 812990. http://www.naics.com/censusfiles/ND713940.HTM http://www.naics.com/censusfiles/ND812990.HTM 713990 is legitimate health spas, and 812990 are Concierge/Escort/Dating services. So we re-draft whatever code it is with these specific class codes mentioned. The first complaint St. Paul gets that a health company is oriented for Concierge/Escort/Dating will be grounds for imposing stiff local ordinance penalties, and possibly for reviewing their company's NAICS class code used in federal and state taxes. I also have no problem using public employees as "secret shoppers" to verify the services offered comply with the registered class code. I like Mike's idea of defibulators (AEDs) on site as a compromise policy. I also am intrigued with Bob's video surveillance requirement, for which a business insurance policy might pay. The Builder show this morning showed how a home video system may be installed. Kudos to Dave for helping to rid us of the filth. But in at least one case, and the biggest case, Ferris Alexander's removal happened despite the local lefties best efforts to prevent it. Quote: Randall Tigue, a First Amendment specialist and former head of the Minnesota Civil Liberties Union, made enemies at the Justice Department through his longtime successful representation of Minnesota's "porn king," Ferris Alexander, owner of a string of sex shops in the state. Alexander was a perennial target of the Justice Department for alleged distribution of obscene materials and tax evasion, but for about 15 years Tigue managed to keep his client out of jail and in business. Then, when federal prosecutors attempted an innovative use of the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act in an obscenity prosecution against Alexander, they hit upon an effective tactic for assuring that Tigue could not defend the case: They had Tigue himself indicted, alleging that he conspired with Alexander by helping him set up corporations for some of his business interests. Minnesota lawyers, convinced that Tigue had committed no crime, started a collection and raised $100,000 for his defense. A federal jury acquitted Tigue of all charges. But Alexander, without Tigue to defend him, was convicted of racketeering and obscenity. http://www.reason.com/news/show/29168.html Dave Thune do you condemn the now elderly 1st amendment activists such as Tigue and many other locals who fought the feds with Alexander to retain Alexander's St. Paul smut enterprise? Anyway, if I am to be involved in public policy at any level in the future, rest assured this would be a no-brainer for me. We are building on the quality of life theme (the various police tactics and downtown river development) by allowing "Super Spas" and other healthful businesses in St. Paul. Jamie Delton Summit U
In a message dated 4/26/2008 11:30:09 AM Central Daylight Time, <email obscured> writes: Blocking 24-hour Spas on such a minor code component is pointless. This is an important job growth issue and a quality of life issue. -snip- You have to be kidding me. Isn't the entire point of the place that they don't staff them so that they are cheep? How in the heck does that make this an important job growth issue? Any health club that wants to operate in Saint Paul can operate in Saint Paul as long as it has someone working there (job growth) when there are customers there. What is not allowed is any place that allows "members" to do activities associated with the normal activities of a "health club" like taking off your clothes, or changing your clothes or showering ... without there being a responsible employee in the building. Having been on the picket line with Thune back in the 70's and 80's I will agree that this is an important quality of life issue. Facilitating the sleaze balls that operate "private clubs" in Saint Paul to start up again just so that these discount health clubs with no staff can open, doesn't seem like much of a trade. The only way were able to rid the City of those joints was to create a direct link to the unlawful activities to the owners through their employees. So, you may think that it is your right to have access to a health club that promises that for at least eight hours there is no one in the building to clean the place and allows staph to grow like dandelions, but the City does have the ability to require that you have staff available to protect the general health and welfare of any place that advertises itself as a health club. ... And that gave the fringe benefit of being able to link the owners of the massage parlors to the activities in the building. JMONTOMEPPOF Chuck Repke **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Chuck,
You've got to be kidding. Your job growth plan hinges on the compulsory hiring
of a single extra person for each company site? Can you say "heavy handed
progressive/socialist economics"?
Was the issue ever bathroom maintenance?
You just admitted the reason we initially established the code was because of
it's anti-smut qualities not because we thought it was safer or because it
fostered the hiring of a single "responsible" position or because the bathrooms
were not clean or any other reason.
Let's take the more effective and intellectually honest NAICS approach and
block only smut companies instead of micromanaging human resources which blocks
smut companies AND some legitimate businesses.
Let's just admit the pretense we put up to get rid of the smut companies was
based on assumptions about positions a legitimate spa company might choose and
that those assumptions now need to be updated.
Let's present to the readers all city and state codes that you think are so
critical to the moral fortitude of our city because they keep out smut
enterprises.
The difference between a janitor and a "responsible" (more so than a janitor,
facility manager, attendant, or director?) medical emergency position is
several thousands.
It is ridiculous to block a legitimate company in this manner that wants to do
business in St. Paul.
If there are any other such codes that accomplish ulterior motives at the
expense of legitimate companies we should update those codes as well.
Chuck your picketing was good but code establishing "a direct link to the
unlawful activities to the owners through their employees" now discourages
legitimate business.
Let's take a moral stance against smut and deception and modify the code just
enough to allow legitimate business into St. Paul.
The 24-hour medical emergency position requirement does not block all smut
enterprise.
The 24-hour medical emergency position requirement implies the government
knows best how to run a legitimate Spa business that is eager to be a part of
St. Paul.
Let's fix it.
Jamie Delton
Summit U
Note dialog may be posted on my blog www.deltondigest.com if I reach my 2
comment limit here.
You know what really scares me is how quickly a new generation forgets or
disregards history.
Folks, life isn't a nice civics class taught by a kindly professor where you
memorize "progressive" and "socialist".
And prostitution isn't a victimless crime. And its apologists are wrong when
they say that it can't be taken off the streets...
And no... the law doesn't allow you to simply state "we will make it
illegal to run a whorehouse and clearly differentiate a "nice" business from
a bad one."
Pimps have lawyers - very, very good lawyers. Do you wonder why it took 10
years to get rid of the storefront massage/prostitution businesses?
Because even though they were busted regularly (but only after a victimized
neighborhood pleaded to its elected leaders), they kept getting off the
hook. "I had no idea..." ; "the participants were certainly not screwing
with my permission or knowlege..."
Then finally... finally we were able to come up with regulations they
couldn't crack.
That is why, dear readers, your daughters are able to walk to school without
passing a storefront that offers sex for pay.
Here's the bottom line. The city council is NOT going to change this law.
The health clubs will discover that they can still make money by having
attendants on duty. Socialism will not replace capitalism this year. Joe
Soucheray is a highly paid entertainer who will still convince his
reader/listeners that his tired schtick still relates to the working guy.
Life will go on. Try to find a new thread.
dave
ward two protector of virtue :-)
Dave, I just have to respond to your comments,?"Socialism will not replace capitalism this year.? Joe Soucheray is a highly paid entertainer who will still convince his reader/listeners that his tired schtick still relates to the working guy." Are you saying that it your Party's?intended goal is?to turn our capitalist society into a socialist one.? If that is the case why don't you just change the name of?your Party to the Democratic Socialist Party (DSP)?instead of the?Democratic Farmer Labor (DFL) if this your intended goal.? Your comments don't represent your Party,? or only a select few who control your Party.? As I have walked and met with residents on?the North End and East Side, I have talked to many Democrats and they also feel that the current DFL party leadership is not the DFL it was in the past.? These values included, family values, sound economic policy to let the citizens keep their hard-earned money that they work so hard for and not just take it?away.?? Your comments last month about later bar times during the RNC Convention and the?"Puking Republicans" comment?is shameful.? You call into question?our Governor?for all of?the budget problems in St. Paul, but you fail to look within.? It is you and your fellow city council members that approve the city budget,? NOT the Governor of Minnesota.? Your high?property?tax increases over the last two years have amounted to?over a?24% increase in taxes for St. Paul residents alone.? Also please?take a look at your $17 million in new spending that resulted in a 15.6% increase in property taxes for this next budget year.? If you add the county and school district to the mix?you have an increase in property taxes for St. Paul residents of over 40% in two years.? SHAMEFUL!? This is not a way to attract businesses or to have a "Positive Economic Cycle" for St. Paul.? The remaining businesses in St. Paul are at a big?disadvantage to their counterparts in areas that are not as highly?taxed.? In the last week I have talked to two businesses who are either going to close and move out of St. Paul due to the high taxes.? Dave, you have worked against NEW businesses like Trader Joe's coming to St. Paul.? If I remember correctly,?you worked hard to stop this project that will bring good, high paying?new jobs to St. Paul WITHOUT costing the city of St. Paul any money.? ALL costs like Street improvements are?to be paid by the developer.? Win - Win for St. Paul on this development. Dave, lets drive around St. Paul and play a game of lets see how many blue vacant signs there?on homes.? Last count there were 1675 vacant homes in St. Paul and you raise the property taxes.? I know, lets get the banks to bring these vacant?houses up to new code?condition before they are allowed to be?sold (NOT).? It is my understanding that you?support of this idea for for banks to rehab these?vacant homes before they are sold, this?is the wrong way to go. You talk about Joe Soucheray's "tired shtick."? Why do you suppose his ratings are through the roof.? For reference, lets take a look at the 164 public comments about the 24-hour fitness clubs published in the St. Paul Pioneer Press recently.? They can be read at, http://www.topix.net/forum/source/twincities-pioneer-press/TQMHNNM1KTMUDLMA1? Would you like me to post a link?for the later bar closing times public?comments in the Pioneer Press?? As for your ratings, look at the voter turnout in the last two elections.? The public is disengaged in what is happening in their government.? There is apathy and open?contempt for their elected leaders.? WHY?? Because they are out of touch,? like banning everything for the "public good."? Next Kathy Lantry?is going to ban the Easter Bunny from City Hall, oh thats right?Kathy already did that. The only "tired shtick" is this socialism policy by some members of the city council.? This is AMERICA, not Russia or China.? The actions?by some members of our City Council?is turning St. Paul into a Land of Government Regulation instead of a Land of Opportunities. Enough is Enough! Sincerely, John Krenik Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
Hi all I am reposting my post because I had difficulty with posting it through email. Dave, I just have to respond to your comments, "Socialism will not replace capitalism this year. Joe Soucheray is a highly paid entertainer who will still convince his reader/listeners that his tired schtick still relates to the working guy." Are you saying that it your Party's intended goal is to turn our capitalist society into a socialist one. If that is the case why don't you just change the name of your Party to the Democratic Socialist Party (DSP) instead of the Democratic Farmer Labor (DFL) if this your intended goal. Your comments don't represent your Party, only a select few who control your Party. As I have walked and met with many residents on the North End and East Side, (I have talked to many Democrats), they also feel that the current DFL party leadership is not the DFL it was in the past. These old time DFL values included, family values, sound economic policy to let the citizens keep their hard-earned money that they work so hard for and not just take it away. Your comments last month about later bar times during the RNC Convention and the "Puking Republicans" comment is shameful. You call into question our Governor for all of the budget problems in St. Paul, but you fail to look within. It is you and your fellow city council members that approve the city budget, NOT the Governor of Minnesota. Your high property tax increases over the last two years have amounted to over a 24% increase in taxes for St. Paul residents alone. Also please take a look at your $17 million in new spending that resulted in a 15.6% increase in property taxes for this next budget year. If you add the county and school district to the mix you have an increase in property taxes for St. Paul residents of over 40% in two years. SHAMEFUL! This is not a way to attract businesses or to have a "Positive Economic Cycle" for St. Paul. The remaining businesses in St. Paul are at a big disadvantage to their counterparts in areas that are not as highly taxed. In the last week I have talked to two businesses who are either going to close and move out of St. Paul due to the high taxes. Dave, you have worked against NEW businesses like Trader Joe's coming to St. Paul. If I remember correctly, you worked hard to stop this project that will bring good, high paying new jobs to St. Paul WITHOUT costing the city of St. Paul any money. ALL costs like Street improvements are to be paid by the developer. Win - Win for St. Paul on this development. Dave, lets drive around St. Paul and play a game of lets see how many blue vacant signs there on homes. Last count there were 1675 vacant homes in St. Paul and you raise the property taxes. I know, lets get the banks to bring these vacant houses up to new code condition before they are allowed to be sold (NOT). It is my understanding that you support of this idea for for banks to rehab these vacant homes before they are sold, this is the wrong way to go. You talk about Joe Soucheray's "tired shtick." Why do you suppose his ratings are through the roof. For reference, lets take a look at the 164 public comments about the 24-hour fitness clubs published in the St. Paul Pioneer Press recently. They can be read at, http://www.topix.net/forum/source/twincities-pioneer-press/TQMHNNM1KTMUDLMA1 Would you like me to post a link for the later bar closing times public comments in the Pioneer Press? As for your ratings, look at the voter turnout in the last two elections. The public is disengaged in what is happening in their government. WHY? There is apathy and open contempt for their elected leaders. WHY? Answer: Because they are out of touch, like banning everything for the "public good." Next Kathy Lantry is going to ban the Easter Bunny from City Hall, oh that's right Kathy already did that. The only "tired shtick" is this socialism policy by some members of the city council. This is AMERICA, not Russia or China. The actions by some members of our City Council is turning St. Paul into a Land of Government Regulation instead of a Land of Opportunities. Enough is Enough! Sincerely, John Krenik Highland Park, St. Paul, Minnesota
Super Spas in St. Paul - Democrat "Protector of Virtue" Dave Thune debates citizens on e-democracy.org Parts below were posted on DeltonDigest.com Dave Thune, The city council may not need to change the law requiring a CPR/ medical response position 24 hours at spas. We can make an exception for each individual "Super Spa" company that wants to do business in St. Paul. Perhaps a little work is required to resolve this issue on the city council on behalf of the citizens. You've already admitted to being involved in initiating the law many years ago for ulterior motives. Which is worse, taking a moral stand against smut despite the "pimp's lawyers", allowing an exception to be registered in law for Super Spa companies, and worrying not what anyone might say about it or not allowing an exception, taking a weak moral stand (protector of virtue?) and denying legitimate healthy new business in St. Paul which citizens are asking for? Below are comments collected at http://www.topix.net/forum/source/twincities-pioneer-press/TQMHNNM1KTMUDLMA1/p6 based on the article http://www.twincities.com/allheadlines/ci_8975738 Thanks for the link John. At least 97% of the 164 comments (none were mine) support the 24 hour spas and a curtailment of the ordinance that discourages the spas and costs them money needlessly. The city council need not be intimidated by attorneys who once defended dingy old smut shops in St. Paul. The line where Dave says Quote "And no... the law doesn't allow you to simply state "we will make it illegal to run a whorehouse and clearly differentiate a "nice" business from a bad one." Pimps have lawyers - very, very good lawyers. Do you wonder why it took 10 years to get rid of the storefront massage/prostitution businesses? Because even though they were busted regularly (but only after a victimized neighborhood pleaded to its elected leaders), they kept getting off the hook. "I had no idea..." ; "the participants were certainly not screwing with my permission or knowlege..." Unquote is informative - most people don't know that the response was this. But it is cowardly to make a legitimate business pay for your frigidity in the face of an important decision. Who cares what these smut shop attorneys think? Are you kidding me? You are AFRAID of the smut attorneys? Show me a St. Paul judge that would take more than 2 minutes to rule against any smut attorney in a critical judgement. If such judges exist we have bigger problems. Jamie Delton Summit U
> Life will go on. Try to find a new thread.
Us citizens have no business debating this issue because King Dave has spoken.
This is exactly what this forum is for. Why are you afraid of honest
debate on this Dave?
Elected officials should encourage discussion not tell us to shut up about it.
John Harris
webber-camden, mpls
I'm usually not goaded into responding to over-the-top remarks, but a few items
need answering...
>>>John Krenik>>>
>>>I just have to respond to your comments, "Socialism will not replace
capitalism this year. Joe Soucheray is a highly paid entertainer who will
still convince his reader/listeners that his tired schtick still relates to the
working guy."<<<<<
Come on John, these are just truisms... Soucheray will continue to find a
continuing supply of easy marks to buy his 20 year old routine. He's still
stuck pretending to be middle class while he secretly eats quiche. At least I
respond to new issues and really do eat chef boyardee canned spaghetti.
>>>John Krenik<<<
>>> I have talked to many Democrats and they also feel that the current DFL
party leadership is not the DFL it was in the past. These values included,
family values, sound economic policy to let the citizens keep their hard-earned
money that they work so hard for and not just take it away. <<<<<<
So this is why you advocate for night-long drinking hours and offer up our
neighborhoods to the porn palace crowd? I didn't think republicans were in
favor of anti-family values - oh - unless they make money for someone I
guess....
Tax increases? We were at zero to 3% levy increases until your republican
governor decided to punish DFL leaning cities so he could pander to the
no-new-taxes crowd of neo-cons. Give me a break - you didn't talk to any
businesses who are going to leave, did you? Why don't you share with us? Lets
see if they really are leaving... My guess is they're imaginary, just like the
hundreds of bars who were supposed to go bankrupt because of the smoking ban...
Trader Joe's? Trendy place. Adds traffic to surrounding neighborhood
resulting in a "D" congestion rating which we will have to remedy within 10
years with your taxpayer dollars. National chain buys zero supplies and
groceries locally. Ships it in from chicago daily. Unfortunately I lost on
that issue, but to show that DFL officials see things differently, I was in a
1-6 minority...
Vacant homes? Use real facts John. The republican national economy has gone
to hell while we subsidize a tragic war borne of a George Bush lie. Thats why
some people lose their homes. Others succumbed to the lure of cheap re-fi loans
pushed by national lenders (not local banks). Actually the local banks don't
have a problem with our new get-tough policies. The bad guys are the national
lending chains who took back the homes and have no intention of maintaining the
property. I say, show them no mercy!.
John, if you're going to run for mayor you'd better get a better command of the
facts. Joe Soucheray's followers don't live here and don't vote. Thats why he
doesn't have the gumption to run for office himself.
Chris Coleman will eat you for lunch if this is the best you can offer.
dave thune
ward two
very crabby today. the dog passed away a-piece ago, so I'm taking it out on
krenik
Ummm, perhaps we could all stay grounded in the issue: what rules for
operating fitness clubs best serves St. Paul communities?
That's a practical question that doesn't depend on personality or
ideological worldview. And it could be a worthwhile discussion.
Now, I'm open to conversation on such issues, but...I think I speak
for many SPIF and PiPress readers when I
say...zzzzzz...zzzz....zzzzz....wake me up wh....zzzz...we get
bac....zzzz...zzzzzzz...
Congrats to everyone who has managed to take a thread about an important
issue and make it into something ... I dunno, something bizarre and
slightly sick.
This is how I read the issue:
1) There is an ordinance on the books requiring someone certified in CPR
to be present during all hours that a health club is open.
2) There is a new trend to unstaffed 24 hour health clubs. They would
like this repealed.
3) The ordinance that is in place was put there during the bitter wars
against brothels in the 1970s and 1980s, and has proven effective at
keeping brothels from operating in this city.
4) The people that got this ordinance in place do not want to change it
because of their experience fighting well funded pimps.
5) No one thought of the possibility of 24 hour legitimate health clubs
with electronic monitoring when the law was passed, meaning that there is
some potential for it to be modified in a way that allows the desired
operation but still offers adequate protection to neighborhoods looking to
keep prostitution out.
6) No one has yet proposed such a compromise. The two sides are: repeal
the ordinance and block repeal. That is that. There hasn't even been
talk of what a potential compromise might look like.
7) Calling people names such as "socialist" or "control freak" or "poopy
head" will probably not help create a compromise, either.
8) If a compromise preserving what both sides say is important is to be
reached, it will probably require a great legal mind or two. So far, no
such mind has been presented on SPIF.
9) There is no Point #9.
10) Absent any search for a compromise, a desire for compromise, or the
ability to produce compromise, it is unlikely that this discussion will
get much better.
That's all I got. Back to reality.
Wow, other people's discussions putting Spaulding to sleep, that's noteworthy.
I think Erik's over-numerated analysis got closest, but didn't quite make the
point that is so glaring to me: Whoever wants to change the ordinance should
take the responsibility of coming up with an intelligent accommodation that
doesn't negate the original--very valid--purpose.
As Dave Thune pointed out, simply lighting the anti-government torches of the
proponents of total de-regulation puts our traditional supporters of family
values in the self-contradictory position of supporting prostitution. The fact
that these erstwhile supporters of values have gone on the attack so quickly,
vehemently and personally actually seems a little creepy to me. I mean, what's
your hurry, John?
Makes me glad my Councilmember has the historical perspective and intestinal
fortitude not to be Willy-Hortoned or baited by knee-jerk socialist labeling.
Don't let them wear you down, Dave.
> "It's only a matter of time . . . "
>
> So far, the main focus of this thread has been on the potential for use of
> the
> health clubs as a cover for prostitution.
> Considering even such public places as the restrooms at the Minneapolis
airport can
> become
> a draw for people seeking anonymous free sex, does anyone want to
> bet on
> how long the same use will arise for the unsupervised health clubs? Unlike
> parks, they even have climate controlled surroundings.
> It seems that some things just evolve once the opportunity presents
> itself,
> and I think this may be one of those opportunities waiting happen. In what
> position will the city find itself then? Will they have to assign
> undercover
> officers to patrol clubs if patrons complain?
>
> This is not an argument about sexual linkups, but a question of setting up
> a
> situation that has unforeseen implications for the city.
> I belong to a health club that doesn't have continuous staffing, and I
> love the
> freedom of anytime use and very low fee. But my membership is in a
> rural
> community where people think nothing of leaving an unlocked car running
> while
> they pop into the quick store and kids leave bikes sprawled
> unlocked on the lawns.
> However, St. Paul residents have to deal with the reality of city they live
in, and
I have to agree with Dave Thune. It took a very long time for Saint Paul to
clean up the "brothels" that operated as health clubs. This city has also done
a great job in keeping out the strip clubs that just exploded in Minneapolis
after the Target Center opened. Except for the place at Larpenteur and Rice
Sts, Saint Paul is free of these types of clubs. Why, because the city has
very strict rules to control them. There aren't many businesses that stay open
without any staff on hand. Occasionally you run into a Laundromat that will
stay open for 24 without staff.
Stick to it Dave. Most folks don't remember how hard it was to close down the
"brothels" here in Saint Paul.
Rob Fulton,
Highland Park
Come on Rob. How can you compare a health club with little room for anything
but work out equipment and limited access to a brothel or the old "health
clubs" that were nothing more than massage centers catering to elicit
activities?
As Dave suggested, maybe its time to make exception to the rule intended to
stop prostitution so these venues can operate.
"Fulton, Rob" <email obscured>> wrote: I have to agree with Dave
Thune. It took a very long time for Saint Paul to clean up the "brothels" that
operated as health clubs. This city has also done a great job in keeping out
the strip clubs that just exploded in Minneapolis after the Target Center
opened. Except for the place at Larpenteur and Rice Sts, Saint Paul is free of
these types of clubs. Why, because the city has very strict rules to control
them. There aren't many businesses that stay open without any staff on hand.
Occasionally you run into a Laundromat that will stay open for 24 without
staff.
Stick to it Dave. Most folks don't remember how hard it was to close down the
"brothels" here in Saint Paul.
Rob Fulton,
Highland Park
My sincerest condolences to Dave on the loss of his dog; I lost mine
over four years ago and I'm still not totally recovered. Living with
dogs is like outliving several of your kids; an incredibly amount of
love there, but you learn to live with a whole lot more grief than
those with kids of longer life spans.
I can't figure out why we haven't heard from a certain list member on
this thread, but I've held out long enough. This is a bigger issue
than anyone has recognized and labeling any argument as favoring or
advocation of prostitution is bunk; and I'd urge all to go a step or
so further than even the mayor and deal effectively with prostitution
once and for all beyond this health club approach.
Dave and allies say to change the ordinance to accommodate AnyTime
Fitness in St. Paul would be to lose that tool in the arsenal of
those who keep people from buying and selling their bodies for sex.
Illegal prostitution businesses need a front and ATFitness does not
really fit the traditional mold for these front businesses, as Mike
points out, but if one assumes that transactors would all join a
particular chain and use it in that way, then Dave and his crowd are
correct that the ordinance must be kept intact in case ATFitness goes
illegitimate; it never really occurred to me that ATFitness could be
used in this way until I read the article that John posted in
initiated the thread, but 'independent contractors' could certainly
use the place, any gym really, in that way to meet customers. The
only hang-up is that the premises are under video surveillance,
except for shower and dressing facilities; if things go south, they
are easier to deal with legally than the past bordellos. Of course
many other businesses may be used in this way without violation of
the ordinance in question, so it would seem that tool is the wrong
one to stop prostitution; such an approach is more the mark of a
sham, feel good government answering the unreasonable demands of
various constituencies than an effective way to limit prostitution.
A while back I looked into ATFitness as it is only two blocks from
me, next to my favorite new espresso place on University Ave. SE in
Minneapolis. It costs more and offers less than my present gym in St.
Paul, Ballys, but the convenience of the place and extra hours might
win me over eventually. I imagine I would think differently if it got
a reputation as a place for people to hook up illicitly, but this
only seems to have occurred in St. Paul, I think, and as far as I
know it is unfounded. Does it say more about ATFitness or the City of
St. Paul? Dave and Chuck say they've cleaned up St. Paul and maybe
they are right; I sort of doubt it, because what they've probably
done is push the problems under the rug or into someone else's area
of the Metro or outstate.
As long as there are legal prohibitions of any kind, there will be
much larger issues in the way any government deals with the illegal
activity associated with providing what is forbidden, i.e., we are
allowing the criminal enterprise a foothold in our society as
evidenced in the societal problems caused, not by crime, but by those
very legal prohibitions of anything. The prohibition of alcohol and
drugs in our country have been responsible for undermining the rule
of law and any sort of effective activity to protect folks from
themselves.
A prohibition on prostitution drives human trafficking, public health
problems, and insidious criminal enterprises out of our control, and
it also limits any 'successes' to safe islands in a sea of discord;
the overarching effect is a failure to deal adequately with these
very real problems. There are folks who see prostitution and a host
of other vices as the seeds of evil in society to be weeded out as it
takes root, but the cultivation of repressive cultures--cultures that
nurture the very evil in which vice grows and flourishes--are the
real problem. Dave Thune, et. al, should do some thinking and look in
the mirror
Hoping no one is snoozing,
If I was a headline writer, how would I sum up this subject in a quick but
flashy way? How about (and all in caps):
GOP CALLS FOR DITCHING ST. PAUL ANTI-PORN ANTI-PROSTITUTE LAW.
How does that grab you? Would the so-called party of family values want to
run on that headline? Unfair you say?
It is Rovian, for sure. It's the way the GOP plays politics nationally and
in this state and in this city.
I think the spineless Dems need to get a spine and this is as good an issue
as any: Stand up for MORALITY and FAMILY VALUES. Be heard. And tar all
GOPers with those labels. (My appologies to Mike Fratto and others who can
be labeled Eisenhower Republicans, a kind and now almost extinct species.)
While on a rant about GOP message crafting: What should be the Dems response
to their anti-gas tax rise message? Here is my suggestion - and using the
same medium as the GOP show it on Holiday station monitors at the gas
pumps - it would start with a video showing the collapse of the I-35 bridge
and then (in St. Paul) fade to an image of the Lafayette St. bridge, with a
voice over that: "The GOP and Gov Palenty don't believe in paying *now* for
needed bridge and other infrastructure maintainence, they'd rather fiddle
(to the sounds of mournful backgraound violin music) around with bonds that
our children and grandchildren will pay off. Which bridge or highway will
fail because of their malignant neglect?"
Cheer, a new spring is coming someday (hopefully soon),
Mike Schoenberg
MacGroveland
On 4/29/08, Mike Schoenberg <email obscured>> wrote:
> If I was a headline writer, how would I sum up this subject in a quick but
> flashy way? How about (and all in caps):
>
> GOP CALLS FOR DITCHING ST. PAUL ANTI-PORN ANTI-PROSTITUTE LAW.
I always took this issue as one of changing the ordinance to allow
these snap fitness type clubs to operate not simply repeal the law. i
didn't know the debate was one or the other. if it has to be one or
the other then i would keep the law as is.
> they'd rather fiddle
> (to the sounds of mournful backgraound violin music) around with bonds that
> our children and grandchildren will pay off.
Those same bonds that you want to pay for LRT and numerous building
projects at state colleges and universities. not to mention gorilla
cages. Why is it ok for our children and grandchildren to pay of
those things?
John Harris
webber-camden, mpls
Choosing between Mayor Coleman the Second and Councilmember Thune is not always
easy to do. Both are wrong so often. And when they are right, they are often
right together.
Somebody commented on another forum with which I am closely connected that part
of a mayor’s job is to protect the business climate while a councilmember tends
to want to make sure unsatisfactory businesses stay out of their neighborhoods.
I know [and I suspect that he/she knows too] that in real life lines are seldom
clearly drawn, but there is probably a lot of truth in the comment.
But I tend to agree more with the mayor on this.
I think that Mr. Hare has done a good job of clearing the issue. However, I
wonder how much effect the ordinances passed back then actually solved what
they were drawn up to solve. And if they didn’t do it then, are they really
protecting us today?
I doubt that health club licenses killed the widely-known whorehouses that
spouted up in the 1970’s and hung on well into the 1990’s. I think that good
law enforcement encouraged by community disapproval and economic realities
killed them off.
I have worked in the taxi business since 1970. We used to take many of the
staffs of these places to and from work, so we knew where they all were. They
seemed to be disproportionately located in our city and in Mpls and Richfield,
although a few other municipalities did have one or two. [And, although at
least one former councilmember always seemed to think otherwise, we didn’t take
that many clients to them, certainly not people who had not already chosen
their destinations before entering the cab.] I noticed over t he time how what
were “saunas” and “massage parlors” quit being “saunas” and “massage parlors”
when licensing rules came about. Most became just “parlors” or other places
and quit offering saunas or massages.
When ordinances were passed or strengthened, they seemed to just kept becoming
something else which was not being licensed.
I remember that there was one place that didn’t do that right away and got a
worker busted for giving a massage without a license. As I remember the worker
got charges dismissed because the prosecution was unable to prove that the
worker used her hands doing the “massage” as the ordinance specified and the
ordinance required more tinkering.
At least a couple of places downtown went away when their sites were taken as
part of redevelopment. A place on Prior Avenue lost its lease shortly after
the city became a bigger lessee in the same building. [I don’t know if there
was any official cause-and-effect story there, but it did not seem entirely
coincidental.
Rebecca Rand’s place on Arcade was closed by a wider racketeering prosecution.
Another on Arcade was closed by a judge for a zoning violation.
Several places were closed under improved nuisance laws after good police work
obtained enough convictions.
I would really like to hear from somebody in the law enforcement business about
what did actually close the places down, but somehow it doesn’t seem that the
ordinances we had were a major cause.
The big problem I see is the mixture of exertion with the increased necessity
of resuscitation. That could be the rub.
I am aware that these places exist around the country and nobody is talking
about this problem, but I would like to see how important our public health
people think this problem might be.
Ray Sammons
East Side
Payne/Phalen
Why not just move these businesses to an area zoned specifically for them?
It seems that the majority of compliants center around neighborhood issues.
Rowdy Russ.
The Truth in St. Paul.
Does anyone know how many times item 12 in section 427.07 was actually used to fine or prosecute a) the targeted front operations, and b) legitimate business? http://www.ci.stpaul.mn.us/web/CityCode/lc427.html#sec427.07. Jamie Delton Summit U (12) At least one (1) employee or manager, trained and qualified in first aid and CPR according to standards established by rule by the department of safety and inspections shall be on duty at all times that the licensed premises are in operation or open to members or the public. Such standards shall be in conformity with standards and guidelines established by the American Red Cross with respect to water safety instructors or by the American Heart Association for similar purposes. (Ord. No. 17624, § 1, 1-17-89; C.F. No. 92-1269, § 1, 9-15-92; C.F. No. 07-149, § 193, 3-28-07)
Its a licensing issue. In order to have a health club license they MUST have an employee under section 12. Failing to have an employee would mean the loss of the license. The issue never was that getting CPR training as a burden, that is no challenge. The impact on the bad guys was that it forced them to have an "employee or manager" which is not an "independent contractor" which were the people that "worked" in the establishments were. There was never a woman in a sauna that ever was a W2 employee of any sauna, all of those women were independent contractors. So, who lets you into one of those clubs? A fellow "member" or an independent contractor. And, when the police bust someone for doing something wrong, who takes the fall? The independent contractor, because the owner or the club takes no responsibility for the actions of independent contractors that happen to be there. What happens when everyone MUST have an employee? Employees create a direct link to who ever hired them. Employees are responsible to the owner and are assumed to be doing the wishes of the owner. So, even if "independent contractors" are doing something you didn't want them to do, the employee in the building establishes the responsibility of the owner. Even when the bust were on the bad behaviors in bookstores the links to the owners were created through the presence of an employee in the building. I don't think that anyone ever challenged the issue of having an employee as a condition of a health club license. It is such a reasonable and non-burdensome condition that I think anyone would have been laughed out of court. Even the slimiest characters never challenged the fairness of the condition. Clearly, a city can require that if you are going to make money operating a health club, where there is a potential for someone to have a heart attack, you ought to have someone there that can perform CPR. City's have the right to protect the health safety and welfare of their citizens. It is no different than requiring a restaurant to wash the dishes in a certain temperature dishwasher... and I know some of you don't think that the government should do that either because its "their business" if the kill people, but... JMONTOMEPPOF Chuck Repke In a message dated 5/1/2008 7:00:13 A.M. Central Daylight Time, <email obscured> writes: Does anyone know how many times item 12 in section 427.07 was actually used to fine or prosecute a) the targeted front operations, and b) legitimate business? http://www.ci.stpaul.mn.us/web/CityCode/lc427.html#sec427.07. Jamie Delton Summit U (12) At least one (1) employee or manager, trained and qualified in first aid and CPR according to standards established by rule by the department of safety and inspections shall be on duty at all times that the licensed premises are in operation or open to members or the public. Such standards shall be in conformity with standards and guidelines established by the American Red Cross with respect to water safety instructors or by the American Heart Association for similar purposes. (Ord. No. 17624, 1, 1-17-89; C.F. No. 92-1269, 1, 9-15-92; C.F. No. 07-149, 193, 3-28-07) Jamie Delton Summit University, St. Paul Info about Jamie Delton: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/deltonjamie This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/42DcWV0IVx7iVNj0VzNm8S
"The ordinance was written to stop these kinds of activities from occurring in
our neighborhoods." - Chuck
"the 24-hour on-duty requirement is key to keeping tawdry activities away." -
Dave
So now you admit it is only a license issue, Chuck? Good.
The anti-porn aspect might be a distraction except for the fact that you and
Thune said the ordinance (item 12 section 407 I assume?) was only initiated
because of the prostitution fronts and that keeping prostitution at bay remains
the best reason not to change the ordinance.
These were not convincing arguments as everyone can see. Not to mention the
fact that if someone wanted to front low-end prostitution there are probably
more lucrative and prospective venues than a 24-hour health club. Your whole
tone, Chuck, might be a smear on the intentions of the 24-hour health club
owners.
The public safety of any establishment might be enhanced by having expensive 24
hour CPR or other compulsory services. But such staffing might not be part of
any viable business model for thrift-conscious health clubs and for leadership
to not recognize that hurts St. Paul.
As for the rest, I think we all understand the mechanics of how the ordinance
was thought to deter fronting prostitution.
And we reject the notion that it is now a critical component in fighting vice.
"Even the slimiest characters never challenged the fairness of the condition"
Is that some kind of attack on us? It is simply fact. We will not GET a 24-hour
club which the citizens want if Thune doesn't back down.
Alternatives like member waivers, defibulators, first aid kits and volunteers
are all possible.
Again, let's hear from people who were involved in the actual court cases. I
for one would like to know how any judge can let pimps (as Dave Thune describes
them) and prostitutes off on weak technicalities even if an employer-employee
link cannot be established.
If anyone's going to be "laughed out of court" it should be the "pimp" that
says he didn't know the woman who rented his space at his massage parlor was
selling sex.
Jamie Delton
Summit-U
I meant Section 427.07, item 12 of course. Thune and Repke were both talking about Section 427.07 item 12 of the license code. So we add item 13 excluding 24-hour health clubs from item 12 and require 24-hour health club patron waivers, defibulators, and defibulator waivers and notices. Safety posters, first aid kits and other community safety requirements are probably already required elsewhere in the code. Look at the companies leaving Minnesota because of our taxes and socialist attitude. There was at least one with $13M (if I recall) in taxable income and 5 employees who called into Jason Lewis last month. It is a crisis. We cannot continue down our present path. Even if Thune wins this misguided battle we need to craft business-friendly policy to become competitive once more and avoid the fate of Detroit in the 80s and 90's. With forclosures blight is only a short step away as empty lots and dilapidated houses start to dominate. Jamie Delton Summit U http://www.DeltonDigest.com
Jamie, companies are leaving Minnesota because of the taxes, Even if Jason Lewis and the Tax Avoiders League want you to believe it. They are leaving for a number of issues but its so easy to blame it on the tax code. But that issue is a statewide issue and has absolutely nothing to do with a city ordinance. The issue here is how do we allow a legitimate business to operate that fell into an unforeseen consequence of an ordinance passed years ago to eliminate illegal activity. Frankly we, as citizens, have a right to demand that our city leaders do what is necessary to ensure our community is protected from unwanted activity. Now, I don't remember a great number of citizens coming to the defense of those establishments that called themselves a health club or a sauna but used independent contractors to take care of the customers. Of course the activities performed by these contractors are not part of any health club that currently exists. Jamie Delton <email obscured>> wrote: I meant Section 427.07, item 12 of course. Thune and Repke were both talking about Section 427.07 item 12 of the license code. So we add item 13 excluding 24-hour health clubs from item 12 and require 24-hour health club patron waivers, defibulators, and defibulator waivers and notices. Safety posters, first aid kits and other community safety requirements are probably already required elsewhere in the code. Look at the companies leaving Minnesota because of our taxes and socialist attitude. There was at least one with $13M (if I recall) in taxable income and 5 employees who called into Jason Lewis last month. It is a crisis. We cannot continue down our present path. Even if Thune wins this misguided battle we need to craft business-friendly policy to become competitive once more and avoid the fate of Detroit in the 80s and 90's. With forclosures blight is only a short step away as empty lots and dilapidated houses start to dominate. Jamie Delton Summit U http://www.DeltonDigest.com Jamie Delton Summit University, St. Paul Info about Jamie Delton: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/deltonjamie This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/Uv3HFhTdR6LqK6axDgeEE
In a message dated 5/4/2008 1:18:27 AM Central Daylight Time,
<email obscured> writes:
These were not convincing arguments as everyone can see. Not to mention the
fact that if someone wanted to front low-end prostitution there are probably
more lucrative and prospective venues than a 24-hour health club. Your whole
tone, Chuck, might be a smear on the intentions of the 24-hour health club
owners.
The public safety of any establishment might be enhanced by having expensive
24 hour CPR or other compulsory services. But such staffing might not be
part of any viable business model for thrift-conscious health clubs and for
leadership to not recognize that hurts St. Paul.
As for the rest, I think we all understand the mechanics of how the
ordinance was thought to deter fronting prostitution.
And we reject the notion that it is now a critical component in fighting
vice.
- snip -
OK - I in no way attempted to insult anyone who is in the legitimate health
club business, but please understand that I think that the burden is on you
not me to define what you are so that it is clearly different from what I
could
set up as a front for prostitution.
Is there a set amount of equipment I need to buy so that I can avoid any
consequences for what goes on in my buildings? Do I need an interesting
health
club sounding name? It can't be the fact that you have a franchise and I
don't because that won't hold up in court. The City cannot allow a franchisee
special privileges in the law then a private operator does. So, what is it
that you have in this building that makes you different from my front for
prostitution?
I want to set up a "health club" where there are private memberships and key
card admittance. I want to allow people to be able to change into there
work out clothes and I don't want to have any employees. Sounds like a
"health
club" to me. How are we different?
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Hello Chuck,
In your hypothetical enterprise you have criminal intent which may be evident
in a number of ways. You will likely violate one or more elements of Section
427.11, WHICH WILL BE RETAINED:
****
Sec. 427.11. Unlawful acts.
It shall be unlawful for:
(1) Anyone to engage in, conduct or carry on a health/sport club without a
valid license issued pursuant to this chapter.
(2) Any person in a licensed establishment to place his or her hands upon, or
to touch with any part of his or her body, or to fondle in any manner, or to
massage, the genital area of any other person.
(3) Any person owning, operating or managing a licensed establishment knowingly
to cause, allow or permit in or about such licensed establishment any agent,
employee, or any other person under his or her control or supervision to
perform such acts prohibited in subparagraphs (1) and (2) of this section or
any obscene act.
****
The code above will be kept.
A massage parlor type criminal enterprise cannot operate without violating
section 427.11, regardless of item 12.
Criminal behavior in a lockerroom or elsewhere in a health club cannot happen
without violating section 427.11, regardless of item 12.
This also answers Bill Kahn where he says:
"... [AnyTime]Fitness does not
really fit the traditional mold for these front businesses, as Mike
points out, but if one assumes that transactors would all join a
particular chain and use it in that way, then Dave and his crowd are
correct that the ordinance must be kept intact in case ATFitness goes
illegitimate; it never really occurred to me that ATFitness could be
used in this way ... "
I love the term "goes illegitimate". That we even entertain this expectation of
new business is startling.
Yet this is how St. Paul presents itself to potential business.
The matter of whether or not we can safely add an item 13 which is an exclusion
of item 12 for 24-hour health clubs, seems settled - I think it is okay to do.
Disclaimer - I'm not a lawyer! But I am cautious! My item 13 proposal has a
small footprint and affects only the established code necessary to fix the
problem and no other established code. Come on guys! Give St. Paul citizens a
break! Do what's right.
Jamie Delton
Summit U
In a message dated 5/5/2008 9:24:23 PM Central Daylight Time, <email obscured> writes: 1) Anyone to engage in, conduct or carry on a health/sport club without a valid license issued pursuant to this chapter. (2) Any person in a licensed establishment to place his or her hands upon, or to touch with any part of his or her body, or to fondle in any manner, or to massage, the genital area of any other person. (3) Any person owning, operating or managing a licensed establishment knowingly to cause, allow or permit in or about such licensed establishment any agent, employee, or any other person under his or her control or supervision to perform such acts prohibited in subparagraphs (1) and (2) of this section or any obscene act. - snip - OK, I will try again, because you don't seem to get it. If I was running "Big Al's health club" I would, (1) apply for a license and pay the fee, just like you. I would inform the City Attorney when number (2) occurred that I had no idea that anyone violated any part of (2) BECAUSE I WASN'T THERE AND I DIDN'T HAVE ANY EMPLOYEES IN THE BUILDING. and of course I didn't violate (3) "knowingly to cause, allow or permit in or about such licensed establishment any agent, employee, or any other person under his or her control or supervision to perform such acts prohibited" BECAUSE I WASN'T THERE AND I DIDN'T HAVE ANY EMPLOYEES IN THE BUILDING!! So, I am safe. I didn't violate any of those conditions because the change you propose protects "Big Al's health club" from any annoying police interference. Get it? The language in (3) is the language that catches the owners of the "club." Without employees (3) never occurs. So, you are the one who wants the change and I am trying to help you here. Tell me how you and "Big Al's health club are not the same for licensing purposes. JMONTOMEPPOF Chuck Repke **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
The elements we want to retain are:
Safety
Accountability
Prosecution for fostered, harbored criminal and immoral activity
Let's just SAY that, in the statute in a way that is fair and balanced, and
preserves the owner's general ledger intact.
One thing is clear - item 12 deters both legitimate business and criminal
business. And doesn't nearly every law deter criminal business?
So the deterrence argument fails and is not an element to retain.
There are other city and state laws and rules that will continue to be applied
to the 24-hour health club owner if 24-hour clubs are excluded from item 12.
Your scenario describes an owner committed to crime who is establishing an
enterprise focused on vice. The average owner has a legitimate enterprise,
tries to focus the entire company culture on his product to the exclusion of
all else, tries to maximize profit in the usual legitimate ways (including
staffing) and is happy with legitimate profit.
Jamie Delton
Summit U
Now I'm thinking let's just remove item 12 without adding anything. We can remove item 12 and retain safety, accountability, and the ability to prosecute prostitution efforts, because of the 1996 expanded Caremark ethical/fiduciary responsibilities of directors in Delaware. Background: http://www.weyerhaeuser.com/Company/Media/Speech?dcrID=sp_100320031 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caremark_(court_decision) "A director's obligation includes a duty to attempt in good faith to assure that a corporate information and reporting system, which the board concludes is adequate, exists, and that failure to do so under some circumstances may, in theory at least, render a director liable for losses." http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=Caremark+duty+of+care+&btnG=Google+Search Supposedly, corporate officers are now subject to Caremark responsibility. Health club owners have yet to be named specifically. But a case can be made ... Jamie Delton Summit U
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