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There are 10 posts — by 8 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly) at Feb 08 18:54 UTC

From: Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly) Date: Feb 07 18:41 UTC Short link

I am raising a red flag about the "RNC Protest 2008"  asking for respect for
diversity of tactics and secrecy. I ask all community groups to think very
carefully before supporting this group in any way.

While nearly every peacemaker group has focused on elections, one small group,
"Protest RNC 2008" has been focussed on protesting the Republican National
Convention(RNC), which is normally a good activity except this time. I wrote of
the importance of nonviolence and peace pledge previously. Now all groups who
are participating with this group are being asked to commit to a unity pledge

* respect the diversity of tactics (ignore the people who state on public email
lists that violence to property like throwing bricks through windows is ok)

* separate activities (please don't stand next the person throwing bricks or
you too will probably get arrested)

* don't criticize publicly (like I am doing right now, no free speech, no
request for peace pledge, no request for a standard of non-violence, no
openness, no transparency)

* don't cooperate with police (like my pledge to point at the person throwing
bricks)

Well I looked at this unity pledge and I thought, all that Bush has to do to
shut down protests is join the groups protesting as "George Bush, Tactic - Iraq
War and Group - US Government" and to live by the unity pledge, the protests
could say nothing. There just is something inherently wrong with violence used
to stop violence. Peace grows from goodwill and community spirit.

More at
http://www.mnblue.com/node/1107

Grace Kelly nicknamed Kelly
Peacemaker Curmudgeon in Merriam Park

From: Neala Schleuning Date: Feb 07 22:45 UTC Short link

Here is the actual text of what are called "The St. Paul Principles". These
were published on the rnc2008protest Yahoo group.  The rnc2008protest Yahoo
group is described as follows:  This is a coalition of Twin Cities activist
organizations that are organizing events - including protests- at the 2008
RNC in St. Paul.

The group is seeking consensus for the following statements:

"the undersigned agree to follow these principles for organizing resistance
surrounding the republican national convention in 2008:

(1) our solidarity will be based on respect for diversity of tactics and
the plans of other groups.

(2) the actions and tactics used will be organized to maintain a
separation of time or space.

(3) any debates or criticisms will stay internal to the movement, avoiding
any public or media denunciations of fellow activists and events.

(4) we oppose any state repression of dissent, including surveillance,
infiltration, disruption and violence. we agree not to assist law
enforcement actions against activists and others."

I don't see any specific references or advocacy of violence in these
principles.  There is a reference to state initiated violence.

-----Original Message-----
From: Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly) [mailto:saintcurmudgeon@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:42 PM
To: St. Paul Issues Forum
Subject: [SPIF] Update: peacemakers vs brick throwers

I am raising a red flag about the "RNC Protest 2008"  asking for respect for
diversity of tactics and secrecy. I ask all community groups to think very
carefully before supporting this group in any way.

While nearly every peacemaker group has focused on elections, one small
group, "Protest RNC 2008" has been focussed on protesting the Republican
National Convention(RNC), which is normally a good activity except this
time. I wrote of the importance of nonviolence and peace pledge previously.
Now all groups who are participating with this group are being asked to
commit to a unity pledge

* respect the diversity of tactics (ignore the people who state on public
email lists that violence to property like throwing bricks through windows
is ok)

* separate activities (please don't stand next the person throwing bricks or
you too will probably get arrested)

* don't criticize publicly (like I am doing right now, no free speech, no
request for peace pledge, no request for a standard of non-violence, no
openness, no transparency)

* don't cooperate with police (like my pledge to point at the person
throwing bricks)

Well I looked at this unity pledge and I thought, all that Bush has to do to
shut down protests is join the groups protesting as "George Bush, Tactic -
Iraq War and Group - US Government" and to live by the unity pledge, the
protests could say nothing. There just is something inherently wrong with
violence used to stop violence. Peace grows from goodwill and community
spirit.

More at
http://www.mnblue.com/node/1107

Grace Kelly nicknamed Kelly
Peacemaker Curmudgeon in Merriam Park

Grace (nicknamed Kelly) Kelly
Merriam Park, St Paul
Info about Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly):
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From: Charlie Swope Date: Feb 07 23:20 UTC Short link

"we agree not to assist law enforcement actions
against activists and others."

What does this mean exactly? One interpretation is
that it includes the same kind of "no snitching"
policy that hampers the police in apprehending
criminals. So if bricks are thrown, the signers have
pledged not to cooperate with the police in
apprehending the culprits. That doesn't sound right to
me. Or, if a signer knows about plans for violence
he/she has promised not to go the police but, instead,
stand back and let it happen. Don't like the sound of
that.

I'm also not crazy about the "no criticism" rule.
What's the purpose of that?

From: caty royce Date: Feb 07 23:22 UTC Short link

Thank you Neala, for printing the actual principles. That clarifies things
and i think, paints a whole different picture then Grace laid out.
Particularly the time and space thing. As an organizer what i read in that
principle is making sure that different actions are organized so they're not
happening simultaneously and therefore not maximizing effect.  I think the
St. Paul Principles sound well reasoned and respectful of the many voices
who want to voice opposition to the republican party and its principles.

caty royce

On Feb 7, 2008 4:44 PM, Neala Schleuning <schleuning@comcast.net> wrote:

> Here is the actual text of what are called "The St. Paul Principles".
> These
> were published on the rnc2008protest Yahoo group.  The rnc2008protest
> Yahoo
> group is described as follows:  This is a coalition of Twin Cities
> activist
> organizations that are organizing events - including protests- at the 2008
> RNC in St. Paul.
>
> The group is seeking consensus for the following statements:
>
> "the undersigned agree to follow these principles for organizing
> resistance
> surrounding the republican national convention in 2008:
>
> (1) our solidarity will be based on respect for diversity of tactics and
> the plans of other groups.
>
> (2) the actions and tactics used will be organized to maintain a
> separation of time or space.
>
> (3) any debates or criticisms will stay internal to the movement, avoiding
> any public or media denunciations of fellow activists and events.
>
> (4) we oppose any state repression of dissent, including surveillance,
> infiltration, disruption and violence. we agree not to assist law
> enforcement actions against activists and others."
>
> I don't see any specific references or advocacy of violence in these
> principles.  There is a reference to state initiated violence.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly) [mailto:saintcurmudgeon@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:42 PM
> To: St. Paul Issues Forum
> Subject: [SPIF] Update: peacemakers vs brick throwers
>
> I am raising a red flag about the "RNC Protest 2008"  asking for respect
> for
> diversity of tactics and secrecy. I ask all community groups to think very
> carefully before supporting this group in any way.
>
> While nearly every peacemaker group has focused on elections, one small
> group, "Protest RNC 2008" has been focussed on protesting the Republican
> National Convention(RNC), which is normally a good activity except this
> time. I wrote of the importance of nonviolence and peace pledge
> previously.
> Now all groups who are participating with this group are being asked to
> commit to a unity pledge
>
> * respect the diversity of tactics (ignore the people who state on public
> email lists that violence to property like throwing bricks through windows
> is ok)
>
> * separate activities (please don't stand next the person throwing bricks
> or
> you too will probably get arrested)
>
> * don't criticize publicly (like I am doing right now, no free speech, no
> request for peace pledge, no request for a standard of non-violence, no
> openness, no transparency)
>
> * don't cooperate with police (like my pledge to point at the person
> throwing bricks)
>
> Well I looked at this unity pledge and I thought, all that Bush has to do
> to
> shut down protests is join the groups protesting as "George Bush, Tactic -
> Iraq War and Group - US Government" and to live by the unity pledge, the
> protests could say nothing. There just is something inherently wrong with
> violence used to stop violence. Peace grows from goodwill and community
> spirit.
>
> More at
> http://www.mnblue.com/node/1107
>
> Grace Kelly nicknamed Kelly
> Peacemaker Curmudgeon in Merriam Park
>
> Grace (nicknamed Kelly) Kelly
> Merriam Park, St Paul
> Info about Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly):
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/gracekelly
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/LCInXwcVaSTJ8lsJnLgGL
> -----------------------------------------
>  To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
>  in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
>  More info about St. Paul Issues Forum:
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>
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> -----------------------------------------
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>
>  Citizens Guide to St. Paul
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>
> Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and items for
> investigation to: <email obscured>
>
>
>
> Neala Schleuning
> West Side, Saint Paul
> Info about Neala Schleuning:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/nealaschleuning
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/FUidQTi29jeWQz0ynLp28
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>

From: Andrew Hine Date: Feb 07 23:36 UTC Short link

Please clarify "organizing resistance."  Resisting what, exactly?  I was under
the impression Minnesotans are irresistable?

Andrew Hine
True Blue Minnesota

From: Charlie Swope Date: Feb 07 23:40 UTC Short link

Is there a difference between "organizing resistance"
and "protesting?" If what's being resisted is the Iraq
war or some other Republican policy and that
resistance takes the form of peaceful protest, then I
have no complaint. However, if what's being resisted
is the ability of the Republicans to assemble and
conduct their business, that's a different matter. The
principles quoted are ambiguous about this.

From: Rick Mons Date: Feb 08 00:37 UTC Short link

Is the "rnc2008protest" group on Yahoo the same as the "Protest RNC
2008" group that Kelly references?  The link to the group referenced
by Kelly is:  http://www.protestrnc2008.org/.  The Yahoo group
referenced by Neala requires an approved membership in order to view
the principles and clarifying information.

Caty writes that the "time and space thing" makes "sure that actions
are ... not happening simultaneously and therefore not maximizing
effect."  Is there a factual basis for this assumption of motive --
or is this a supposition?  (I ask because another web site talks
about the need for time and space to separate those protests that are
expected to result in arrests from those that are not expected to
result in arrest.  See:  http://www.rncwelcomingcommittee.org/156 and
the discussion of red, yellow and green zones)

I'm also unclear as to the purpose of the "rnc2008protest" group(s)

From: Jon Gorder Date: Feb 08 05:19 UTC Short link

Neala Schleuning <schleuning@comcast.net>



"the undersigned agree to follow these principles for organizing resistance
surrounding the republican national convention in 2008:

(1) our solidarity will be based on respect for diversity of tactics and
the plans of other groups.

From: Jim Kielkopf Date: Feb 08 17:49 UTC Short link

When considering the feasibility and likelihood of unlawfulness and property
destruction at the RNC this summer, a number of posters here have presumed that
riots are counter-productive to the interests of protesters, and that the
Seattle experience was a failure for those protesting the WTO.  Let's look at
the these presumptions again.

Since the WTO debacle in Seattle, there has not been single new multilateral
trade agreement signed between North American or European powers and the Third
World, and several attempts of advancing the WTO agenda through the Doha round
of talks has failed.  In view of this, the Seattle protests, including the
"brick-throwing" tactics, should be seen as an unqualified success for the
organizers of the protests, both lawful and unlawful, not a failure.

Likewise, the civil rights riots following the death of Martin Luther King are
largely credited with providing Washington with a sense of urgency for
reforming and funding the urban renewal and anti-poverty programs of the
1970's, such as the Community Development Block Grants (CDBG), a federal form
of Minnesota's LGA.

Brick-throwing, under certain circumstances, does work, particularly when
employed by groups who have few other options for exercising political power
over a given policy question.  In light of this, and the unpopularity and
powerlessness many feel regarding the war in Iraq, it seems pretty reasonable
to expect that more radical forms of action will occur than merely exercising
one's right to free expression.

----- Original Message ----
From: Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly) <saintcurmudgeon@earthlink.net>
To: St. Paul Issues Forum <stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2008 12:42:02 PM
Subject: [SPIF] Update: peacemakers vs brick throwers

I
am
raising
a
red
flag
about
the
"RNC
Protest
2008"
asking
for
respect
for
diversity
of
tactics
and
secrecy.
I
ask
all
community
groups
to
think
very
carefully
before
supporting
this
group
in
any
way.

While
nearly
every
peacemaker
group
has
focused
on
elections,
one
small
group,
"Protest
RNC
2008"
has
been
focussed
on
protesting
the
Republican
National
Convention(RNC),
which
is
normally
a
good
activity
except
this
time.
I
wrote
of
the
importance
of
nonviolence
and
peace
pledge
previously.
Now
all
groups
who
are
participating
with
this
group
are
being
asked
to
commit
to
a
unity
pledge

*
respect
the
diversity
of
tactics
(ignore
the
people
who
state
on
public
email
lists
that
violence
to
property
like
throwing
bricks
through
windows
is
ok)

*
separate
activities
(please
don't
stand
next
the
person
throwing
bricks
or
you
too
will
probably
get
arrested)

*
don't
criticize
publicly
(like
I
am
doing
right
now,
no
free
speech,
no
request
for
peace
pledge,
no
request
for
a
standard
of
non-violence,
no
openness,
no
transparency)

*
don't
cooperate
with
police
(like
my
pledge
to
point
at
the
person
throwing
bricks)

Well
I
looked
at
this
unity
pledge
and
I
thought,
all
that
Bush
has
to
do
to
shut
down
protests
is
join
the
groups
protesting
as
"George
Bush,
Tactic
-
Iraq
War
and
Group
-
US
Government"
and
to
live
by
the
unity
pledge,
the
protests
could
say
nothing.
There
just
is
something
inherently
wrong
with
violence
used
to
stop
violence.
Peace
grows
from
goodwill
and
community
spirit.

More
at
http://www.mnblue.com/node/1107

Grace
Kelly
nicknamed
Kelly
Peacemaker
Curmudgeon
in
Merriam
Park

Grace
(nicknamed
Kelly)
Kelly
Merriam
Park,
St
Paul
Info
about
Grace
Kelly
(nicknamed
Kelly):
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/gracekelly

This
topic's
messages
may
be
viewed
at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/LCInXwcVaSTJ8lsJnLgGL
-----------------------------------------

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Paul
Issues
Forum:

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St.
Paul
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From: Grace Kelly (nicknamed Kelly) Date: Feb 08 18:54 UTC Short link

Actually, violence hurt our causes dearly. If you have read this forum before
you will have noticed how writers like Mitch Berg harp on every trivial act of
violence to dis-credit the cause. If you read the discussions around that
violence, you would see that everyone was less likely to endorse a cause when
violence had been used. It was only through extra-ordinary non-violent
grassroots intense efforts that there was success in those causes at all.

So any violence for any cause would backfire here in St Paul. Violence is so
beneficial to the opposition, that historically the opposition has deliberately
planted people to cause violence.

That is why it is so important for peace organizations to distance themselves
from a unity pledge of respect diverse tacts and instead endorse a peace pledge
of non-violence in thought, word and deed.

Grace Kelly nicknamed Kelly
Peacemaker curmudgeon in Merriam Park

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