All posts in the topic after assessment (Short link)
Summary
- There are 117 posts — by 45 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Tom Hilber at Sep 26 13:59 UTC
| From | File | Date |
|---|---|---|
| Jamie Delton | bobparker.JPG | Sep 07 17:34 UTC |
| HINE Hine | Quotes show.ppt | Sep 09 21:15 UTC |
| Samuel Meidinger | Photo-0065.jpg | Sep 24 04:06 UTC |
The City of St. Paul is required to submit an after-assessment of how the
convention security, etc. went.
Each Councilmember has been invited to participate.
I'd invite each of you to be involved by sending something thru SPIF
Try to be concise. Offer a what went right or wrong and if wrong, suggest
how it could've been corrected.
I will submit these along with my own.
For example:
Independent journalists were arrested and shouldn't have been.
Suggest we should've offered pre-RNC credentialing I.D. tags and allowed the
holders to move thru the streets without fear of arrest.
Crowds of non-violent protesters were caught in the middle and were confused
as to how to escape police v.s. violent protesters.
Suggest a St. Paul cop should've been in charge of all non- st. paul units.
An officer(s) should have been available to lead non-violent demonstrators
to safety.
Your input will be submitted net week.
Thanks Dave for taking a lead on this effort. You may be the only public official that has spoken out on the police violence. I would start with sending this (FOX 9, yet) video to both mayors and askingfor their reaction and to explain who the higher ups werethat ordered the tear gassing of non-violent, but civil disobedient protesters? http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/myfox/MyFox/pages/sidebar_video.jsp?contentId=7364281&version=1&locale=EN-US This would go a long way in answering the many questions that many of us have and clear the air some in the general understanding of what really caused the obvious overreaction (to put it mildly) of the police and other security forces. It is only the right thing and the political thing to do by the mayors. In today's Strib, a letter writer called for both of their resignations. I do not believe this should be done, but the mayors need to tell uswhat person or organization told the police and security to use tear gas on unarmed and non-violent protesters. The correct thing to do was to just pick up the protesters and put them in a van or truck to get them out of the way. This is what was done before the last few conventions. Are you as outraged as I am? The cops even went beyond their orders and kept tear- gassing this poor young woman over and over and assaulting her! Even the gassing of the woman once, I feel is unlawful, as well as possibly unconstitutional. We all need to send this video to as many public officials as we can, as I feel this is the most telling of the videos that I have seen of the police violence at this convention. Thanks again Dave for all you do, Gary Thompson Highland
Submitted to whom, Dave? I think that any self-evaluation by the City would
take longer than a week.
And personally, I have a lot more questions than answers. But I suppose I could
rephrase them. Instead of asking: "Why was the representative of the lead
local law enforcement agency (Matt Bostrom) telling citizens in December 2007
that no police officers infiltrating protest organizations, would be wearing
uniforms (not war-like tactical gear), would actually be in charge (not the
Secret Service), and that demonstrators would be greeted by smiling cops on
bicycles while at that very moment the Ramsey County Sheriff's office had
(according to search warrant affidavits made public earlier this week) ALREADY
infiltrated the RNC Welcoming Committee?" I suppose I could rephrase it to
suggest that such tactics might not be wise.
Diane Gerth
West End and Downtown
Why did some protesters have to wear masks and other facial coverings? Walk into a bank like that and what happens? Tom Meemken Battle Creek ----- Original Message ----- From: Diane Gerth<mailto:gerthkueny@aol.com> To: St. Paul Issues Forum<mailto:stpaul-issues@forums.e-democracy.org> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [SPIF] after assessment Submitted to whom, Dave? I think that any self-evaluation by the City would take longer than a week. And personally, I have a lot more questions than answers. But I suppose I could rephrase them. Instead of asking: "Why was the representative of the lead local law enforcement agency (Matt Bostrom) telling citizens in December 2007 that no police officers infiltrating protest organizations, would be wearing uniforms (not war-like tactical gear), would actually be in charge (not the Secret Service), and that demonstrators would be greeted by smiling cops on bicycles while at that very moment the Ramsey County Sheriff's office had (according to search warrant affidavits made public earlier this week) ALREADY infiltrated the RNC Welcoming Committee?" I suppose I could rephrase it to suggest that such tactics might not be wise. Diane Gerth West End and Downtown Diane Gerth West End, St. Paul Info about Diane Gerth: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dianegerth<http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dianegerth> This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7dmvNBMYmM29XFJIMEBJxv<http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7dmvNBMYmM29XFJIMEBJxv> ----------------------------------------- To post, send your message to: <email obscured><mailto:<email obscured>> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," in subject line and send to: <email obscured><mailto:<email obscured>> More info about St. Paul Issues Forum: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues<http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/stpaul-issues> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules<http://e-democracy.org/rules> ----------------------------------------- Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net<http://onlinegroups.net/> Citizens Guide to St. Paul http://e-democracy.org/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul<http://e-democracyorg/wiki/Citizens_Guide_to_St._Paul> Questions about rules violations? Send complaints and items for investigation to: <email obscured><mailto:<email obscured>>
Problem: Police were uniformed in black and military-style battle gear,
creating the impression, if not the reality, of a militarized, occupied, and
confrontational city, instead of a safe, festive environment. Lots of research
and work goes into designing military uniforms for the political statements of
authority and imposition of power in confrontational and violent contests for
power. Those kinds of political statements are precisely the ones that should
NOT be made by people charged with ensuring public safety in a supposedly happy
and festive event.
Solution: The same level of personal protection and command cohesion provided
by the military-style, battle-duty uniforms could have been provided by
uniforms with a more sporting appearance, maybe even paid for with sponsored
logos as sports teams do. Use of civilian, sporting-style protective gear by
police would have helped decrease the sense of confrontation and the
military-authoritarian political statements that were given so clearly and so
often during this convention.
Thanks, Dave, for doing this. Democracy works because people like you
make it happen.
My bits:
We know for a fact that Sheriff Fletcher relied heavily on infiltrators to
secure information on protest groups. This may have been reasonable,
given the publicly stated intent to behave violently by some of them.
However, this action needs to be accompanied by a full accounting of the
actions of the undercover agents involved, including proof that they were
not agents provocateurs.
Suggest that the names and full actions of the infiltrating agents be made
public along with a full accounting as to why the groups were targeted.
Some of the actions by Sheriff Fletcher in advance of the convention
resulted in little evidence being seized and no arrests. This begs the
question as to whether they were designed to intimidate.
Suggest that the information that was used to obtain the warrants along
with the name of the judge that signed the warrant be made public, along
with the authority that this judge had in Ramsey County.
During the more difficult times of open rioting, little was done to
control rumors. This was very unfortunate, and is a major part of
restoring order in any such situation. Stories of beatings and macings
were circulated, some proving true later but most not.
Suggest that a website listing every arrestee along with picture be made
available, and that staff be on had to use the latest technology such as
twitter, etc to rebuff rumors.
The complete closure of the entire stretch along Kellogg from I-35E to
the Mississippi made it impossible for anyone to get around. Delegates
and other people here for the convention were not able to leave the site,
meaning that economic impact was minimal from this event.
Suggest that in the future we stipulate that a crossing at Smith/Main and
at the Science Museum be maintained as a minimum, and that we refuse to
host event that cannot operate with these crossings in place.
Economic impact is, anecdotally, not what we hoped for. We need to find
out what this convention was worth to the city.
Suggest a formal study by neighborhood /zip code to assess the economic
impact.
The site of so many police in riot gear was enough to damage police
relations with the citizens for many years. To undo this damage, we need
to know exactly what the conditions are that prompt this show of force.
Suggest a public review of all police procedures for controlling a riot
and a public comment period based on how these standards worked during the
convention.
Well, I guess riot squads have to wear protective gear and it is
always scary looking; if we have a next time, to soften the their
appearance, each officer should be issued and be required to wear a
tutu over the lot with his or her badge number with the respective
city or county served emblazoned across the bodice. Perhaps when they
are not acting on orders and encountering members of the public, they
should be required to perform a short ballet routine.
I'm just as concerned about the impact on business around the
convention as with the police actions. I'd like to see a before,
during and after survey performed.
Since no puking folks of any party appeared to haunt any downtown
bars into the wee hours or were able to get into them, I think we
should all do a downtown bar crawl, post-RNC, to make up for their
absence: one drink per bar to your limit and then set yourself down
at the last or at an eatery until you're sober enough to go home, or
individuals and groups could use other transportation options (like a
St. Paul cab; I wonder how they did). Or folks could just go out,
drink, eat, be merry, and tip well on their own as previously
suggested by others.
I think those of us who lived only a block from the barricade were relieved to see the end of this short (but long) week. Going into a local bar on Wednesday night, we realized talking with an owner that this convention was turning out to be a lot of expense for them (with extra staff and security costs) but not a lot more business. When all was over, we loyal customers went back to this bar with our "credential" later featured on MPR's News Cut blog: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/archive/2008/09/taking_back_the_streets.shtml After a week of seeing people sport their press and delegate badges, we just needed to reassert the place of residents in the mix of people visiting local businesses. The server who had also been there Wednesday night gave Erik a big high five when she saw his credential and said those were the most _important credentials_ to her. Clearly the employees of local businesses and not just the residents were happy to have our fair city back. Peace to all, Cristy
For more than a year Dave Thune and others defended the worst elemnets witnessed this week despite lessons in several other national conventions. These self described anarchists stated they intended to do costly damage many times. The group's websites are documnted on looktruenorth.com and twincities.indymedia.org/rnc before it was closed to the public. Yet Thune, Mike and others attack Republicans. http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/post/2XpjHKIXtwWOSrOfgNt1nG School board member Tom Goldstein's anti-law enforcement posts are despicable. We should all be proud of the police and our city, from top to bottom. We made the world a better place by upholding order and rejecting anarchy. Again I challenge anyone to defend any of these thugs to be prosecuted Monday or soon thereafter on this board. I challenge those defending them legally to disclose it on this board. The police risked their lives. We must now prosecute or the thugs continue on to the next convention without a record. Jamie Delton Summit U
We should never blindly throw praise to all in any group. Overall the police
did their jobs well but in other cases rights did get violated and
unnecessary force was used. reporters have the right to be at and cover all
events and government in any form may not violate that right.
Everyone has a perspective on the events of last week and my are as
follows.....
Security was excellent from the standpoint of threat reduction, access
control and ability to react to threats. The City would have faired better
had much of the heavily armed presence been less visible. Everyone knew what
was in place and we did not need the shock troop effect. The police on
horses and bikes were very effective as were the casual uniformed presence
throughout the city.
Police self control and professionalism overall was very good but again some
went too far. The arrest of reporters, using mace on people taking pictures
and the senseless use of force caught by a local news team of one a young
girl. She refused to move and instead of arresting and taking her away she
was repeatedly hit with mace, pushed by bikes and knocked down several
times. This is a case where a full inquiry must take place.
We lost all sense of who was in charge and therefore no one seemed
accountable as events unfolded. We need to know who called the shots and see
the orders given and compare that too what took place. It may not be allowed
to hide behind some Homeland Security provision.
The protesters did a great job of sticking to their message and exercise the
rights they have as citizens too free speech.
97 percent of all those who protested seemed to be content to be seen and
heard. The 3 percent of idiots who did damage to our city and wanted a
confrontation with the police got it. I feel overall they got exactly what
they deserved.
The press did not I feel give the time to those who peacefully marched but
obsessed on the few trouble makers.
The City and it's staff put a good face on the city and had done great
preparation for the event. The hurricane cost much income to vendors around
town but did save us from bush and cheney. Had they been here the security
would have been even more smothering.
As a West Sider the closing of the high Bridge was a big pain.
I will be interested to see the number of law suits that follow this weeks
events and the legal opinions that come out of those cases.
Brian Joyce
West Side
Hi folks,
I'd first like to say thanks to Kathy, Audrey, Chris, Pat, Christopher,
Nate, Leslie, Sue, Neal, and Leslie, ten people from Buffalo New York who
stayed at our house for the RNC. They took four days off work, drove 2000
miles and spent 32 hours in a van, tens of hours in preparation, and 96
hours in Minnesota to express themselves at the RNC. During the same time, I
vacationed with my family and went to work for two days before taking one
day off.
I'd like to say thanks to Charlie and others like him and his wife who were
medics, peace patrollers, etc during the RNC. I appreciated it much, as I
was elsewhere.
I'd like to apologize for asking people to enjoy the experience and enjoy
Minnesota nice.
Dave, in response to your quest for input or feedback, I'd note the
following, much like others have done already.
(1) The strategy that appeared to be utilized made us less of what I was
raised to consider an American to be. It may have been a successful
strategy, but so would illegal wire tapping, imprisoning of people without
due process, etc and other strategies employed as a result of Bush
administrations interpretation of what 'success' would be fighting
terrorism. It appeared to a strategy of fear, intimidation, and blockading.
It was a dehumanizing experience to even drive by the law enforcement people
staged on Kellogg on our way to the freeway (35E)to go home on a quiet
Wednesday evening and to be frightened by their appearances. It was
demeaning to be lectured to by a law enforcement person about having made my
bed, and to go lie with them and suffer the consequences. To have an office
refuse to speak to me, and hold, in the correct fashion, the blocking baton,
and to gesture, in the correct fashion, the shielding hand motion followed
by the pointing finger was a new, image creating, experience for me. And I
had very very minor contact with law enforcement.
I don't know a specific solution, except perhaps to be more American, if
there is such a thing.
(2) Another response was the dismay I felt to see Public Works employees,
welders, electricians, and construction people, put into a position where
they had to have pouches containing gas masks. These were people who were
mobilized as close as 10 feet away from law enforcement people putting on
their gloves, dropping helmet shields or putting on gas masks, and
tightening their grip on their batons, or as close as tens of feet in the
snow plows and tandems other wised used to maintain our streets. It was
dismay and embarrassment I felt, and not embarrassment about the employees
(at least five of who I knew, and know to be good people) but the
management, political and otherwise, who did that. It actually made me feel
for a while that the intimidation and fear was indeed just a strategy, and
that danger or a threat was not really present or really expected, because
of wondering who would do such a thing if they thought it was really
dangerous.
A solution would be, if there was indeed a dangerous situation, you put
professionals in the vicinity to deal with it. You can lend machines and
material all you want, and have PW people deliver them to the professionals.
Using volunteers is no excuse for bad judgment.
(3) We went out one evening for food, to Sweeny's. They noted that business
was down the whole week. How could it be otherwise if the image you project
is one of great concrete blocks and barbed wire fencing protruding out of
it? It should have been predictable (was) and factored into what was told to
the us by the responsible people (does that imply Eric isn't a responsible
person?).
(4) True Blue Minnesota. Again it's interesting to note my preference for
strategies that convey what we think is important to be, even while not
having the appearance of being successful due to lack of exposure or the
apparent smaller number of people impacted, than for strategies that utilize
or appeal to the least or worse of our characteristics, and have the
appearance of being successful. You've already notices the use of the words
apparent and appearance. I think True Blue Minnesota was a great success,
worth every penny and minute invested by the great people who did so. I wish
I had given more, and I hope they have more fund raisers for this effort and
similar efforts. The messages convey were exciting, great ones. And the idea
of it will stay for a long time, having impact, and I hope encouraging more
and more movements in this direction.
(5) It'd be better if we, or just I, could learn to trust what our leaders
tell us about how good their decisions were, and how good their strategies
were. Because there was an approximately 100% chance of them doing that,
estimated before this event, I don't know how to successfully navigate that
problem after the fact. Who, from our independent media, do you think is
informed enough, was involved enough, unbiased enough, for me to believe in
about what happened, and why? Do you think this report will let us know?
Certainly opinions that reflect a bunch of negativity. Maybe that will
change?
Dave, and others, thanks for the opportunity.
Give us a break Jamie. I think the vast majority agree with you regarding the thugs and their activities. I also think the vast majority will agree with you about the job most of the police did. However, I think you intentionally misrepresent Dave Thune's position. You have been doing it for a long time now. I am not aware of any statement by Dave that invited people to come to St. Paul to damage property, cause injury to others, including police and their horses. If anything he did invite those who wanted to come to St. Paul to protest. Protesting is our right under the First amendment, regardless of what you might think. In fact its even patriotic. With minor exception the people who participated in the various marches and protests were there to exercise their Constitution rights. Unfortuantely, a very small number were intent on something else. More unfortunate is the fact that there were far too many reports of incidents where the police evidently over reacted. It will be a while, I am sure, before we know how much they over reacted, if in fact they did over react. Having a web site that attacks Republicans or suggests ways to protest their convention is no different than Talk radio that attack Democrats includinge comments about killing this or that person. Yet they remain on the air waves because people like you and the administration think its okay. Its all part of the Rovian method togain and keep power . What is interesting is that you can't deal with what's good for the gander is good for the goose. Mike Fratto Payne Phalen Please help those who don't get enough to eat. http://oyh.org http://hungersolutions.org The future depends more on what we do between now and then Than what we did in the past.
Not so much an assessment, but a lingering question:
Given our City's stated priorities on fairness in contracting and promotion of
local business, is there an analysis of how many dollars went to minority and
women owned and local businesses? This should be particularly the case for
the dollars we spent on security that the City controlled, and the hiring
practices for peace officers from other jurisdictions.
Was the money spent in alignment with our stated - and correct - priorities?
Dude, seriously.
Not one person here is defending the idiots who ruined things for so
many. Not Dave Thune, not anybody. While attacking Republicans is a
good idea in most cases, pretty much every poster here has been in
agreement that the "anarchists" were wrong, unlawful, and need to be
dealt with in the best ways available to the police and City Attorney.
That so many lawful protesters were denied their Constitutionally-
guaranteed rights is another matter. That so many anonymous cops were
heavy-handed, and that the feeling that the DHS took over our city
completely is another matter. That the whole enchilada turned out to
be something other than we were all assured it would be is another
matter.
To smear all protesters as thugs eliminates the validity of any rant
against what, for the most part, was done. Protest is the highest
form of patriotism, (according to that lefty whiner Thomas Jefferson)
and the way that some of this was handled raises a lot of questions--
which is what responsible people are doing right now. One should not
conflate events or statements to the level of fiction just to make an
angry point-- nobody should.
It's pretty clear that Dave Thune was a great example of level
headedness through this, and I am not alone in appreciation of that.
Let me ask you Mike and Bob - one year ago when Thune was drafting his protester rights as a city council member, might his time have been better spent ensuring local hospitality business be included in RNC plans? Was Dave Thune's protester bill of rights ever applied? How much time did the council spend on Thune's pointless concerns? Let there be no question - the violent protaganists in the RNCWC and elsewhere with the aim of injuries, death, and disruption, were completely thwarted by a variety of force. Noone "overprepared" the force with un-needed riot gear. The fact that Bush and Cheney were not here had no effect on the destructive plans of the criminals whose rights were so carefully looked after by the city council. 1 year ago instead of preparing arrangements for St. Paul businesses to benefit from hospitality service, St. Paul leaders, likely in part influenced by police-power "experts" on e-democracy.org, were obsessing over the fair treatment of the feloneous criminals and the effete brats of failed parents that we witnessed last week. If they had done their job and focused on normal city administration things instead of pointlessly attending to civil rights concerns for no law-abiding protester's benefit, we would not need a pub crawl to restore lost business. The problem is city council priorities. For that alone the city council should be held to account or punished at the ballot box. What is the priority of same city council now, after the threat has left? Finding out the uniform of each law enforcement agency. UNbelievable. Let's hear from Dave Thune's colleagues now. We already know Thune's mistakes. We're paying for them. I've had enough of Thune representing the city and representing the council. Dave Thune has got to go. Bob, what is this Sept 6 2008 entry on your personal blog? http://prufrock.journalspace.com Docile young protesters should listen to police if they tell you to move somewhere. The young protester and the police she was distracting were surrounded by a riot-capable crowd waiting for a distraction to move in. Dirty bombs and fire-bombs thrown from a riot against a packed Xcel were prevented no thanks to that young protester. I would have been killed inside the X on Wednesday night as would have been many of our mutual friends if the police had lost focus for 1 second and a riot ensued. Thank you everyone for the level of professionalism. Thank you Sarah Palin for new, bold and ambitious aspirations set for eager young government people. Bob, while you and the rest of the responsible list members sort this out let me suggest your level of hatred disqualifies anyone from objective, useful analysis of this week. Jamie Delton Summit U
The following file was added to this topic:
"I would have been killed inside the X on Wednesday night as would have been
many of our mutual friends if the police had lost focus for 1 second and a riot
ensued."
This is the same sort of FEAR MONGERING that some people have used to justify a
continued infringement on American Civil Liberties.
These are Republican talking points. I heard some similarly thinking Delegates
in Rice Park aka MSNBC Freedom Square say in response to several CODE PINK
Protesters that "Our Freedoms Have Gone Too Far"
There were enough POLICE, National Guard, Secret Service, BCA, DOJ, SWAT,
Ramsey County Sheriffs and out of state Police to invade a small country....I
think they (Our Government) has shown just what it thinks about FREEDOM...of
speech, assembly and press....again...Bush Administration.
Thank you Dave Thune for giving your time and energy to the People of our City
and our NATION.
You know, if we're going to require so much security for what is essentially a private function, perhaps it makes more sense for the venue, especially for the RNC, to be someplace like this: http://www.doc.state.mn.us/facilities/linolakes.htm or someplace else that could be used exclusively and secured without disrupting the lives and fortunes of residents and business.
You may have received a campaign contribution solicitation from Mayor Coleman
yesterday.
This is what I am returning:
"No contributions will come from me unless there is a full accounting for the
repressive measures used to trample many people’s rights during the RNC.
• People who pose an imminent threat of violence should be countered with
force.
• People engaged in civil disobedience should expect to be removed and perhaps
arrested.
• People who protest and move on, who observe and move on, or who are just
bystanders should not be treated as threats, criminals or enemies of the state.
What we saw was heavy force used against many hundreds of people when there was
threat of violence by only a few dozen. How many windows were broken? Where
is the balance? We saw preventive detention and intimidation aimed not just
at stopping crimes but focused particularly at dissuading dissent.
The city lost its soul last week behind the barricades and lines of anonymous
riot squads. You have a good deal of responsibility for this and I hope you
can help to redeem this city."
Jamey,
You should speak directly to Dave Thune about his positions. I don't know his
positions on your concerns. I only know my concerns, and don't pretend to
speak for other people, or to answer for them.
Great post. Thanks.
Dean Sheldon,
SA Park
----- Original Message -----
From: Jamie Delton
To: St. Paul Issues Forum
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [SPIF] after assessment
Let me ask you Mike and Bob - one year ago when Thune was drafting his
protester rights as a city council member, might his time have been
Jay,
The three categories you list below are super.
However, imagine you are the "police". Tensions are running high because there
is a mass of people here. You know from the briefing that some of those in the
mass have avowed to do major harm. You have been standing on your feet all day
and they are killing you. You see a flash of unexpected movement off to your
side. Simultaneously there are five people right in front of your face shouting
and waving their hands. Three of the ten flailing hands are closed fists
holding who knows what.
In an instant, how do YOU determine to which of your groups does each of five
people belong?
It is remarkable that more people were not injured.
Dean Sheldon,
SA Park
----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Wilkinson
To: St. Paul Issues Forum
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [SPIF] after assessment
People who pose an imminent threat of violence should be countered with
force.
People engaged in civil disobedience should expect to be removed and perhaps
arrested.
People who protest and move on, who observe and move on, or who are just
bystanders should not be treated as threats, criminals or enemies of the state.
Dean, I was reading about those circumstances just the other day. It was
pretty famous. History calls it the Boston Massacre. Nothing new here, Dean.
On the other hand one of the most famous non-violent photos of the Vietnam
War Era occurred near this event. It was at the U of M and it was photo of
those officers standing at perfect attention while some young female protester
put daisies in the ends of their rifle barrels.
I would hope that every officer who did any action during the event was
doing what they were under orders to do and that none of them were operating
out
of either fear or anger, which is what it appears Dean is accusing them of.
I have more faith in them than that. I would hope that any officer that
maced a protester was under orders to do that and that anyone that use
physical
force was using the force allowed by their superiors and under their best
judgement.
Dean, you do no credit to our fine officers if you make them out to be
fearful of the protesters. If anyone has issues with the police it is at the
command level, not the officer level.
Justifying the loss of civil liberties in pursuit of some punk thug that
intends to throw urine on someone and attempting to raise that punk thug to the
level of an international terrorist is what has many concerned. Saint Paul
PD searches out and catches far more dangerous people every day in our City
without the loss of our civil liberties. Or, attempting to disburse a crowd
and not having a clearly defined disburse route, concerns people. Or when it
was determined to use force. Those are command decisions, not officer
decisions.
Your cowardly assault on our officers adds nothing to the discussion.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Chuck Repke
Ward 2
In a message dated 9/8/2008 4:21:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
<email obscured> writes:
Jay,
The three categories you list below are super.
However, imagine you are the "police". Tensions are running high because
there is a mass of people here. You know from the briefing that some of those
in the mass have avowed to do major harm. You have been standing on your feet
all day and they are killing you. You see a flash of unexpected movement off
to your side. Simultaneously there are five people right in front of your
face shouting and waving their hands. Three of the ten flailing hands are
closed fists holding who knows what.
In an instant, how do YOU determine to which of your groups does each of
five people belong?
It is remarkable that more people were not injured.
Dean Sheldon,
SA Park
HI Chuck, Because I saw it and filmed it, there was restraint used on both sides (Police and Protesters) for the most part. However, there were some incidents that should concern our entire community regardless of your polictics. Does this look like Police restraint to you? Just asking for your honest opinion Chuck... You can find more video and interviews at: http://radiofreenation.blogspot.com I covered all 4 days, 10 hours a day. I was there and I witnessed, filmed and recorded the events as they unfolded. If you have news, contact us: 612-599-3030 I will answer your call.
To all (especially Bob Parker),
"While attacking Republicans is a good idea in most cases,... "
It is this kind of statement and attitude, along with all the other statements
leading up to the convention (e.g. puking, RNWC) that really built up a fear of
major violence occurring at the convention.
What did you reasonably expect? The City of St. Paul would have been severely
criticized if it had not beefed up security to meet an expected problem.
Remember, 50,000 people were expected/projected on Monday, even though only
5,000 - 10,000 people showed up. The city had to plan accordingly and expect
the unexpected. Maybe next time the police should sing Kumbaya as they stand
there. Would that make it more palatable to the protesters?
So if someone starts a web site talking about throwing urine bombs, attacking
Democrats (because "it's a good idea"), and in general disrupting the next DFL
4th Congressional District convention, what would your response be. You would
be the first in line demanding that the city protect you.
So an event that should have been positive for the city seems to have left
negative feelings in many. Look at yourself first in assessing blame. If you
want peace, reject the violence.
At first I responded privately to Martin, but the more I think about it I will say it publicly. This is the video that most of us have seen of a lone protester being pushed by officers with bicycles and then sprayed with mace or pepper spray and then pushed. If you haven't seen it look at it again. It appears to be police officers following orders. 1) Using the bike tires like they were had to be something they were told to do since they were all doing it. Somewhere in their training that has to have been approved or you wouldn't see that many of them doing it. 2) She offered her arms up to be arrested several times and they wouldn't arrest her; have to believe that was under orders. She doesn't want to back up and tries to stay in one place. It would appear to be pretty easy to cuff her. You have to believe that they were instructed to move, not arrest the crowd. 3) They continued to yell at her to keep moving; again this isn't people making independent judgements. Even when she is pushed and falls to the ground and puts her hands up again, their instructions are, get up and keep moving. These guys are following orders. They continue to do this even when their side of the line is not keeping up with the right side. So, I would conclude this to be a command decision situation like I said. If not you would have thought that one of these guys would have just gotten tired of her long before then and put cuffs on her. They appear to be under orders to push, prod, and mace people in a certain direction and to avoid arresting them. At least that is what it looks like to me. So, if you don't like what occurred in this video, the issue isn't "police out of control," this is a command decision that you have issues with. If you watch it again with that in mind, you can see where it might have been much better to have simply arrested her early on but that does not appear to be an option available to these guys at that point. JMONTOMEPPOF Chuck In a message dated 9/8/2008 9:57:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, <email obscured> writes: HI Chuck, Because I saw it and filmed it, there was restraint used on both sides (Police and Protesters) for the most part. However, there were some incidents that should concern our entire community regardless of your polictics. Does this look like Police restraint to you? Just asking for your honest opinion Chuck... You can find more video and interviews at: http://radiofreenation.blogspot.com I covered all 4 days, 10 hours a day. I was there and I witnessed, filmed and recorded the events as they unfolded. If you have news, contact us: 612-599-3030 I will answer your call. Martin Owings http://radiofreenation.blogspot.com, Saint Paul Info about Martin Owings: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/henryhammer This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3q5a4bIQMvLyqany2L5TV0
Kudos to Chuck for putting responsibility where it belongs, but he
doesn't go quite far enough. I've been warned on the Minneapolis
forum for not staying local with RNC posts, but since this whole
question of leadership and where the blame for violations of folk's
civil liberties across the Metro, is steeped in our federal system
and the abuse of it by Republican leadership, I'll chance it in all
of our relevant E-Democracy forums today. It is local.
This follow up thread started by Dave Thune, the St. Paul city
council person whose area includes the Xcel to gather information
about what went wrong or right about how things were handled, seemed
like an appropriate place to post; it seems a local enough issue for
Minneapolis even though the epicenter was in Downtown St. Paul. There
is, in fact, a nexus from local to global in these matters.
I wept for those we lost on 9/11, and then cried over the specter
that our reactions to events raised and at the way the G.W. Bush
White House Administration addressed the dangers to our country every
day since. Today, in the aftermath of the RNC, I'm just angry. We
have no reason to trust Republicans about anything for a long, long
time and our hopes lie with the Democrats for now.
You can read much of the same sorts of stories before, during and
after the DNC that we have here now in St. Paul-Minneapolis -- there
is a reason for this and it is steeped in federalism and the abuse of
power running rampant in our country today where Republicans have
blurred or obliterated the line between patriotism and party fealty.
I find it hard to detail and enumerate all of that which is necessary
to state the case for this (others are doing it, so I'll spare my
take); I had to resort to poetry, again:
The barricades go down and all who felt at home and once belonged
To the place once called home, but transformed into something foreign;
Hundreds, once just as welcome here as any, grievously harmed and
wronged;
While gone are thousands whose dubious philosophy was brought to
harsh light again.
A morass of questions and inadequate answers flow from those who remain
And will plague those who care about and safeguard the promises of
our Constitution,
Torturing those who conjure up the enemy at home and would our
protection feign;
The niggling details unfold and tell the story of a plan hidden and
buried in fruition.
The groundswell of outrage rises and finds expression of those
promises enshrined,
Even as those who would shackle us to the whims of a would-be ruling
class;
Hear the voices of philosophers long dead who call us to cast off the
chains that bind,
And distort not the promise but rise to challenge the failed policies
of an ass.
Every change of power is granted through and by the people, in
revolutions
And in them, the spirit of our democratic republic lives, providing
our solutions.
Vote for Democrats and hold them to the promise of change, whatever
your party. We can find our way again and arrive at our sustainable
place in the world. Republicans can help, but they need time at the
woodshed until they see the errors of their ways, i.e., the madness
of Dubya and Company can end, but not now through their party; that
party has to change and talking about change and "fighting" is not
enough, and certainly wasn't that necessary in downtowns of
Minneapolis and St. Paul.
Lets not make this an issue of attacking the Republicans or Democrats. People who showed up to protest were doing it for more than one reason. Most of the people opposed the war or the way the current administration is running the country. Some of those who came to St. Paul did so to cause the police to react. These were the people who created the problem. I think we need to take a step back and wait until we get information the police had. I would think many opinions on this list would change when they learn what actually happened. Mike Fratto Payne Phalen Please help those who don't get enough to eat. http://oyh.org http://hungersolutions.org The future depends more on what we do between now and then Than what we did in the past.
...... Original Message .......
On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 13:32:54 -0500 Bill Kahn <wjkahn@mac.com> wrote:
>... I'll chance it in all
>of our relevant E-Democracy forums today. It is local.
>
No, this post isn't "local" in focus.
A request to all -- posts to this forum need to have a focus upon St Paul
and/ or its residents. Diatribes against one party or another where the
linkage to St Paul is either non-existent or as tenuous as this one are
off-topic.
Rick Mons
Forum Manager
Chuck, this was a really good analysis of the very sad video, shot in St. Paul. For those of you who have not seen it, this is the link to tho FOX 9 video: It is a must see video! http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/myfox/MyFox/pages/sidebar_video.jsp?contentId=7364281&version=1&locale=EN-US As you can see, it probably is the most telling video out there and from the main stream media to boot. As I said in my letter to the Star Tribune, appearing in tomorrow's paper; http://www.startribune.com/opinion/letters/28029934.html?page=1&c=y ...."These police and other security forces appeared to go even beyond their orders and kept tear-gassing some protesters over and over. The tear gassing of a nonviolent citizen even once, I feel is unlawful and probably unconstitutional. I believe the security forces were led by someone or organization other than our local police. An investigation of this terror-like behavior is definitely in order and should be done by an outside group.".... It is also possible as, Chuck analytically suggests, that the police followed a"command decision" to continue to push and tear gas the poor young woman over and over. Either way, I hope Chuck agrees that an outside investigation is in order, as it appears that the Green Party is calling for. What do you think of this video? It was not a purely isolated incident, especially if the police were given a "command decision". Are you as outraged as I am? It only enforces the need to get the Republicans out of office and take back the Constitution. For edification, the paper cut parts of my original letter, one of which said; "A letter writer (on Saturday) called for both mayors' resignations. I do not believe this should be done, but the mayors need to tell us what person or organization told the police and security to use tear gas on unarmed and non-violent protesters." This would go a long way in answering the many questions that many of us have and clear the air some in the general understanding of what really caused the obvious overreaction (to put it mildly) of the police and other security forces. Gary Thompson
Stories from the RNC you didn't get from the "BIG" Media. Here is a sort of BEST OF with video, audio and recorded LIVE broadcasts. Interview of two Gentlemen who tackled a Tire Slashing Vandal on DAY ONE. http://radiofreenation.mypodcast.com/2008/09/RNC_2008_Bystanders_Tackle_Protester_Vandal-139166.html Audio Interview with Protester who was Pepper Sprayed for offering Police a Flower: http://radiofreenation.mypodcast.com/2008/09/Witnesses_Describe_Police_Violence-139172.html Interview with Citizen Mario who is Surprised by the show of FORCE by POLICE: http://radiofreenation.mypodcast.com/2008/09/Interview_with_Mario_at_RNC-139167.html A heavy show of force for TWO PUPPETS. http://radiofreenation.blogspot.com/2008/09/puppet-terrorists.html POOR PEOPLES MARCH VIDEO: Some incredible footage. http://radiofreenation.blogspot.com/2008/09/blog-post.html An Chruch Lady Cheers Protesters, Prays For Peace: http://radiofreenation.mypodcast.com/2008/09/An_Elderly_Women_Cheers_Protesters-139170.html AUDIO INTERVIEW Crystal - Very interesting perspectives on Democracy: http://radiofreenation.mypodcast.com/2008/09/Crystal_Interview_Day_2_at_the_RNC-139173.html Day Three Video Footage: http://radiofreenation.blogspot.com/2008/09/day-3-from-rnc.html RIOT POLICE and MOUNTED RIOT POLICE Rushed Into the Crowd, here is a description of what happened LIVE as it occurred: http://radiofreenation.mypodcast.com/2008/09/Police_and_Prostesters_Clash_at_the_Capitol-139171.html Protesters and POLICE on DAY FOUR: YOU MUST SEE THIS. http://radiofreenation.blogspot.com/2008/09/rnc-day-4-protesters-clash-with-police.html Martin Owings http://radiofreenation.blogspot.com If you have a story call me at 612.599.3030 I will answer the phone.
To Chuck Repke ---
I think your point is well taken, but in making it, you raise a larger issue.
As the events of the week unfolded, it seemed clear that police
strategy and tactics were guided by an unseen hand -- presumably the
Feds. I surmise they came in and during the training process,
dictated, among other things, that arrests would be minimized (for
non-violent expressions of civil disobedience, such as the woman in
this case) and instead, would rely on harassment, intimidation, and
physical retribution.
This is nothing new. To take but one of many examples from the past,
the first Selma to Montgomery march (1965) witnessed the same kind of
tactics.
The difference is that then, this kind of police brutality was met
with revulsion and castigation across the nation from both citizens
and political leaders. Now, it is met with profound apathy from
these same groups.
I think Mayor Coleman has reacted in a cold and calculated manner in
crafting his public response to these police excesses. Despite his
rhetoric assuring us that the police would act responsibly and
protect basic civil rights and liberties, I assume he took a
defensive and apologetic stance, thinking most voters will support
his position (he is up for reelection next year, right?). And he may
be right.
But for those of us with long memories, to hear his fear mongering
about violence and "outside agitators," and his blanket endorsement
of all police actions (in one interview he used the word "heroic"),
Chuck, My post must not have been clear. I was in not trying to malign the police, in fact just the opposite. The point I was trying to make was that yes, there may have been multiple types of people in those crowds, but there was no visible difference between a passer-by and a domestic terrorists or anyone a gradation between the two extremes. It is not like they wore different colored hats. The police are just human not computer driven robots. We asked them to do a near impossible job to correctly differentiate between the innocent, the bad guys, and the really bad guys. And they were to do this usually in an instant under the most difficult of work conditions. I doubt that most anyone on this list could have done as good a job. As I said, I am surprised the outcome was as good as it was. The real cowards are the terrorists. They don't have the courage to identify themselves. In fact their specific mode of operation is to try to hide within the crowd to get as close to their target as possible before maiming and destroying. They were the very reason all the force was needed to begin with. And now I think about it, the activist made a HUGE tactical error by having their march as close to the RNC as possible. They played right into the hands of the terrorists and any rogue police. They provided the "cover" these rotten apples needed. If instead, they had chosen a site miles from the RNC, say to march around Lake Phalen, their message would have gotten much better press. The permitting to march would have been easier. More folks would have come. Driving and parking would have been much easier out there. And they would have been miles from the real troublemakers. There would have been no mistaking who were the real bad apples. The country would have seen just how peaceful they were. And if any police or Fletcher were "planting" troublemakers downtown, it would have been very obvious because the "demonstrators" were out at Phalen!. There could have been thousands of peaceful protesters at Lake Phalen while the 12 real law-breakers faced 2000 riot equipped police in downtown St. Paul. Wouldn't that have made Homeland Security appear pretty silly to the country by having thousands of police for a dozen troublemakers? If indeed the intent of the activists was hold a peaceful march as wel