In support of sidewalks.
Summary
- There are 19 posts — by 13 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Paul Nelson at 2009 Aug 22 07:44 UTC
I do live on the block that includes Victoria and Cty Rd B. The section of Victoria that needs a path or sidewalk is just not that long and it would complete a loop that is used often by citizens, including school children going to and from Parkview Center School. It really is unsafe right now and is very unsafe in the winter months. As for tightening the belt (in more ways than one)...what better way than putting the car away and walking... See attached story. http://www.mn2020.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={8F23335F-1977-4D44-B315-C23D33A43356 } Just a thought... Lisa Edstrom
----- Original Message ----- From: <email obscured> To: <email obscured> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:12:03 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: [Roseville] Roseville Plans Community Meetings John, Both are important. The county and state spends a lot of money maintaining and improving our main arteries. Unfortunately, the city is stuck paying the all the costs for pathways even along county roads, unless there is a major reconstruction project where the county is already involved. Every year traffic levels increase and roads become less safe for pedestrians, and of course less safe for cars as well. I think there needs to be a balance and the needs of both users need to be met for each and every road. No one is asking the city to spend $100 million on pathways. To put pathways along our main arteries would make our city a lot safer though. Honestly, I don't think sidewalks need to be wide enough to drive a car on them. St Paul's sidewalks work great, and it's wonderful that they just have them there on all their major streets. However, St. Paul has sidewalks on both sides of the street usually, and Roseville typically does not. When there is only one sidewalk along the busy 4-lane road, and 2 bikers are coming at each other on it, then the extra width comes in handy. Having sidewalks on both sides of the street would help along major arteries by dispersing bike/pedestrian traffic on both of the sides and then the sidewalks wouldn't need to be as wide. I'd prefer having 2 narrow sidewalks on both sides rather than a large sidewalk on one side actually, as it also helps reduce the number of dangerous crossings in the middle of a busy road. On minor streets (like Western Ave) having a small sidewalk on only one side of the road makes sense. On a major road, one sidewalk is better than none, even if it is nar row. Some of our major roads even lack this. Steve Gjerdingen Central Park, Roseville Info about Steve Gjerdingen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5Uy9oI5GzPsBw9V1V3y9XK View all messages on this topic at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2iuVjJ6HunVzlTaJR5aY9w ----------------------------------------- To post, e-mail: <email obscured> Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" in subject, then send to: <email obscured> More information about Roseville Issues Forum: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules ----------------------------------------- Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net Roseville Issues Forum http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues/stats.html
Let's talk about some of the statistics needed to render an educated opinion concerning the statement "including school children going to and from Parkview Center School. Yes I am going to hammer a little bit on Ms. Edstrom because she is an elected official and therefore a public individual, etc. But I will be fair about it. Specifically how many kids use it. Why would they walk down to County B rather than taking the side street north of B over to the school? Sandhurst Avenue? At what ages does the district bus kids? What are the distances the bus travels? Where do they bus the children to? Doorstep? Street corner? I ask these questions for the following reasons... During a discussion on installing a pathway along County B-2 a few years ago, an elected official and if memory serves correct, a letter from some low level employee with the school district, claimed that kids would be using that sidewalk on the way to school. Well the parents who lived along that route showed up to the council meeting and pretty much said that was all BS. Let me restate this so it is clear for everyone. The parents with children along the route on B-2 to Central Park Elementary said NO to the sidewalk. Then the city council tried to ram a sidewalk down their throats by proclaiming that they were saving the children. Note that none of the council members actually lived on the street. From personal experience, my daughter gets bussed right to the house. Yes, right to the end of the driveway. Every morning and every afternoon. So before we all jump on the bandwagon of let's save the kids who have to walk to school, let's see if there are actually any kids to save in the first place. Let's say for argument sake there are 2 or 3 kids to save. I would guess that we could bus them to the other side of Victoria Street for probably the next 500 years before we would exceed the cost of installing a pathway there. Yeah someone is going to cry childhood obesity, make them walk. Well I respond with the phrase "roving pedophiles in vehicles looking for kids walking to school". Battle childhood obesity by enrolling your kids in safe afterschool activities rather than have them walk the sidewalks unsupervised. I look at the waste of a sidewalk they installed on County Road C, paralleling another pathway through Central Park, at a cost of millions of hard earned taxpayer dollars, that is used by maybe 5 people a day? Doesn't seem right. John M. Kysylyczyn K Solutions LLC, owner K Care LLC, owner 3083 Victoria Street Roseville, MN 55113 email: <email obscured> home office: (651) 484-1384 www.ksolutionsllc.com Mayor of Roseville, MN 2000-2004
-----Original Message----- From: <email obscured> <email obscured>] Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:38 AM To: <email obscured> Subject: [Roseville] In support of sidewalks. I do live on the block that includes Victoria and Cty Rd B. The section of Victoria that needs a path or sidewalk is just not that long and it would complete a loop that is used often by citizens, including school children going to and from Parkview Center School. It really is unsafe right now and is very unsafe in the winter months. As for tightening the belt (in more ways than one)...what better way than putting the car away and walking... See attached story. http://www.mn2020.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={8F23335F-1977-4D44-B315-C23D33A43356 } Just a thought... Lisa Edstrom ----- Original Message ----- From: <email obscured> To: <email obscured> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:12:03 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: [Roseville] Roseville Plans Community Meetings John, Both are important. The county and state spends a lot of money maintaining and improving our main arteries. Unfortunately, the city is stuck paying the all the costs for pathways even along county roads, unless there is a major reconstruction project where the county is already involved. Every year traffic levels increase and roads become less safe for pedestrians, and of course less safe for cars as well. I think there needs to be a balance and the needs of both users need to be met for each and every road. No one is asking the city to spend $100 million on pathways. To put pathways along our main arteries would make our city a lot safer though. Honestly, I don't think sidewalks need to be wide enough to drive a car on them. St Paul's sidewalks work great, and it's wonderful that they just have them there on all their major streets. However, St. Paul has sidewalks on both sides of the street usually, and Roseville typically does not. When there is only one sidewalk along the busy 4-lane road, and 2 bikers are coming at each other on it, then the extra width comes in handy. Having sidewalks on both sides of the street would help along major arteries by dispersing bike/pedestrian traffic on both of the sides and then the sidewalks wouldn't need to be as wide. I'd prefer having 2 narrow sidewalks on both sides rather than a large sidewalk on one side actually, as it also helps reduce the number of dangerous crossings in the middle of a busy road. On minor streets (like Western Ave) having a small sidewalk on only one side of the road makes sense. On a major road, one sidewalk is better than none, even if it is nar row. Some of our major roads even lack this. Steve Gjerdingen Central Park, Roseville Info about Steve Gjerdingen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5Uy9oI5GzPsBw9V1V3y9XK View all messages on this topic at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2iuVjJ6HunVzlTaJR5aY9w ----------------------------------------- To post, e-mail: <email obscured> Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" in subject, then send to: <email obscured> More information about Roseville Issues Forum: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules ----------------------------------------- Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net Roseville Issues Forum http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues/stats.html Lisa Edstrom Info about Lisa Edstrom: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/lisaedstrom View all messages on this topic at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/DdnOGg2qlX1ij4T7t42U3 ----------------------------------------- To post, e-mail: <email obscured> Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" in subject, then send to: <email obscured> More information about Roseville Issues Forum: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules ----------------------------------------- Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net Roseville Issues Forum http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues/stats.html
OK, Lisa. Just another thought. Put your car away and go get a sales job and walk to your 10 or 15 sales calls every day. Let's get in the real world on this environmental non-sense. This country runs and is able to maintain its high standard of living on people being mobile in automobiles and trucks. If you don't think so, just check to see how all merchandise is sold and gets on the shelf of the store you shop at. People do it all every day by being mobile. Dick Houck
----- Original Message ----- From: <email obscured>> To: <email obscured>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:38 AM Subject: [Roseville] In support of sidewalks. > > > I do live on the block that includes Victoria and Cty Rd B. The section of > Victoria that needs a path or sidewalk is just not that long and it would > complete a loop that is used often by citizens, including school children > going to and from Parkview Center School. > > It really is unsafe right now and is very unsafe in the winter months. > > > > As for tightening the belt (in more ways than one)...what better way than > putting the car away and walking... See attached story. > > http://www.mn2020.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={8F23335F-1977-4D44-B315-C23D33A43356 } > > > > Just a thought... > > Lisa Edstrom > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <email obscured> > To: <email obscured> > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:12:03 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: [Roseville] Roseville Plans Community Meetings > > John, > Both are important. The county and state spends a lot of money maintaining > and improving our main arteries. Unfortunately, the city is stuck paying > the all the costs for pathways even along county roads, unless there is a > major reconstruction project where the county is already involved. Every > year traffic levels increase and roads become less safe for pedestrians, > and of course less safe for cars as well. I think there needs to be a > balance and the needs of both users need to be met for each and every > road. > > No one is asking the city to spend $100 million on pathways. To put > pathways along our main arteries would make our city a lot safer though. > > Honestly, I don't think sidewalks need to be wide enough to drive a car on > them. St Paul's sidewalks work great, and it's wonderful that they just > have them there on all their major streets. However, St. Paul has > sidewalks on both sides of the street usually, and Roseville typically > does not. When there is only one sidewalk along the busy 4-lane road, and > 2 bikers are coming at each other on it, then the extra width comes in > handy. Having sidewalks on both sides of the street would help along major > arteries by dispersing bike/pedestrian traffic on both of the sides and > then the sidewalks wouldn't need to be as wide. I'd prefer having 2 narrow > sidewalks on both sides rather than a large sidewalk on one side actually, > as it also helps reduce the number of dangerous crossings in the middle of > a busy road. On minor streets (like Western Ave) having a small sidewalk > on only one side of the road makes sense. On a major road, one sidewalk is > better than none, even if it > is nar > row. Some of our major roads even lack this. > Steve Gjerdingen > Central Park, Roseville > Info about Steve Gjerdingen: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5Uy9oI5GzPsBw9V1V3y9XK > > View all messages on this topic at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2iuVjJ6HunVzlTaJR5aY9w > ----------------------------------------- > To post, e-mail: <email obscured> > Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" > in subject, then send to: <email obscured> > > More information about Roseville Issues Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net > > Roseville Issues Forum > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues/stats.html > > Lisa Edstrom > > Info about Lisa Edstrom: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/lisaedstrom > > View all messages on this topic at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/DdnOGg2qlX1ij4T7t42U3 > ----------------------------------------- > To post, e-mail: <email obscured> > Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" > in subject, then send to: <email obscured> > > More information about Roseville Issues Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net > > Roseville Issues Forum > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues/stats.html >
Mr. K, do you mind standing out on County Rd C to get some statistics for your user numbers? I'm truly curious. Perhaps this study has been performed and I am unaware? I don't believe Lisa was advertising everyone to ditch the car, rather to think more deeply about the choices we make. People enjoy using many modes of transportation and I think we are all quite aware that our lifestyle depends on a on a motor-centric culture. I don't quite understand the connection between my food arriving on a truck and me not wanting the option to walk to the store to pick it up but I'm sure I will eventually figure it out.
Actually I have one relative and three friends who live on County Road C. Three of the four have addresses on C. The fourth lives on a side street and his side yard abuts County Road C, (he is also a former council member). I also drive C several times a week. That is where I derive my statistics from. I wish the city kept statistics on this but we all know that one reason they won't do this is because the numbers would be embarrassing. Imagine doing a cost benefit analysis and finding that we could have bought every walker a BMW for less taxpayer funds. Tough to explain away that kind of idiotic spending. I have challenged city leaders to place a sidewalk bond issue on the ballot. They will never do that. Tough to advocate for spending millions more on sidewalks when the voters would most likely in my opinion vote it down 60/40 or more. But hey, prove me wrong. I would welcome that. Unfortunately no one there with the guts to accept the challenge. They claim that everyone wants sidewalks but actually it is a handful of citizen lobbyists who want them, not anywhere near the majority or even a sizable minority. I could set up video cameras at my friend's places, and have them record 24/7 for a week, and then get the number of users. So what if I find out that 5 people a day use the multi-million dollar sidewalk that costs $5,000 a mile to maintain a year. Will the city pass a moratorium on even talking about sidewalks for let's say 5 years? Not a chance. Some of our city leaders like spending money on things like this because it generates ribbon cutting photographs for reelection campaigns. Some may think that I am cynical. Well I served four years in this city and have probably worked on over 100 other political campaigns. Roseville isn't the only city like this. What is unfortunate is that elected officials don't think more deeply about the cost benefits of the crazy things that they propose to spend money on. But nowhere on a cost benefit analysis is there a value placed on that ribbon cutting reelection photo... because that is priceless. Concerning Parkview, I am really curious to hear how many students walk down Victoria Street to get there since I believe the school is considered a magnet school that serves the entire district and also students in Saint Paul, etc. How many kids are coming from that neighborhood a block or two radius NW of B and Victoria? John M. Kysylyczyn K Solutions LLC, owner K Care LLC, owner 3083 Victoria Street Roseville, MN 55113 email: <email obscured> home office: (651) 484-1384 www.ksolutionsllc.com Mayor of Roseville, MN 2000-2004
-----Original Message----- From: <email obscured> <email obscured>] Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:00 PM To: <email obscured> Subject: [Roseville] In support of sidewalks. Mr. K, do you mind standing out on County Rd C to get some statistics for your user numbers? I'm truly curious. Perhaps this study has been performed and I am unaware? I don't believe Lisa was advertising everyone to ditch the car, rather to think more deeply about the choices we make. People enjoy using many modes of transportation and I think we are all quite aware that our lifestyle depends on a on a motor-centric culture. I don't quite understand the connection between my food arriving on a truck and me not wanting the option to walk to the store to pick it up but I'm sure I will eventually figure it out. Nicole Waxmonsky-Tu Falcon Heights Info about Nicole Waxmonsky-Tu: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/nicoletu View all messages on this topic at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/Ad5t92NpMJKatgNXm4Drm ----------------------------------------- To post, e-mail: <email obscured> Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" in subject, then send to: <email obscured> More information about Roseville Issues Forum: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules ----------------------------------------- Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net Roseville Issues Forum http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues/stats.html
John, If there's one thing that you and I agree on, it's that it would take a video camera to show statistics. I can assure you that we are not spending a BMW on every pedestrian though. Personally I feel the best way that this could be resolved would be if there were some international standards regarding pedestrian and bike infrastructure (two seperate but semi-related things). These standards could be used to rank each city based on how friendly they are for people to walk and bike through. If someone looking for a home wants to know how a city ranks, they can go to a website and look up a ranking that has some science behind and some authority. There is a website called www.walkscore.com, but this site is only address-specific, and cannot give a rating for the entire city. Places like the Har Mar mall area rank very high and we can tell this as we all know that TONS of pedestrians go through there everyday. Why isn't there a pedestrian bridge connecting Rosedale to Har Mar? It would sure make the mall transit stop accessible to a lot more people, and of course the mall itself. And if you think transit ridership is low, think again. Levels are the highest they have been in about 50 years and numbers do prove that. Most transit oriented people are pedestrians as well. What Walkscore.com also doesn't factor in though are which roads have sidewalks, the numbers of lanes on major arteries, missing shoulders on roads, rounded turns, unsafe bridges, the number of drivers who ignore crosswalks in that city, etc. It only looks at distance which isn't a very good metric by itself. If Roseville simply had a rating for it's pedestrian-friendliness, then future potential residents could look at this score to help with their decision process of whether or not they want to live in Roseville. Then if Roseville's infrastracture is proven to be bad and the city continues to ignore it, all the car lovers can move in to the city and have fun being driving in traffic together. Also, it's not just about the number of users now. Part of the reason why more people are driving is because it's hard to even visualize changing it up in the future and walking places given the lack of infrastructure in some spots. Rice Street for example has almost no sidewalks between County Rd C and the Shoreview boundary. Why is this? Pedestrians either have to walk in a bunny path, on a slanted parking lot surface, on the curb, or in a lane with fast moving traffic honking cussing at them. Traffic levels will keep increasing according to statistics. Do we want to go down a path where our ability to walk places is even harder to correct years down the road? I believe that walking to places is a basic human right. As soon as we make it necessary to use a car to travel places, we make it tougher to revert out of that in the future. When we place great restrictions on our freedom to walk places, I believe this also makes us more likely to restrict freedom in other areas as well. If we require having a license tag stuck on behind us and a driver's license to get from A to B, where else will that lead?
there is nothing wrong with the police dept. enforcing bike and pedestrian laws and issuing citations to those who break those laws. actually, it is the police dept's duty to do that. if bikers and pedestrians want more/better pathways, why aren't they organizing and raising money to donate to the city, to in turn, build and maintain the pathways? motor vehicle owners contribute huge amounts of money each year through taxes directly to the building and maintaining of roads. why can't bikers and pedistrians do the same for pathways? if everyone who either walks or bikes over 1 mile in roseville each year were to commit themselves to each raise $500 a year to donate to the city, maybe we would have plenty of money to complete the pathways system and to maintain it. $500 a year would only be less than $1.37 per day. i'm sure everyone who bikes or walks can find a way to cut $1.37 from their daily spending, to contribute to the city to a cause while they feel so strongly about. i hope someone on this forum gets the ball rolling and publicly makes this commitment!
John, in answer to your Parkview question, the district has a two-mile walking boundary for all of its schools, grades 7 - 12 (http://www.roseville.k12.mn.us/trans/attendance.cfm). Parkview is a K-8 school so 7th and 8th graders would need to walk or find some other mode of transportation to get to school. Since Parkview is on the southside of Hwy 36, Victoria and Dale are really the only routes a school-aged pedestrian can take to get to school from the north side of Hwy 36. Just to put my two cents in, I would like to see a sidewalk put in at Victoria for pedestrian safety issues. I think sidewalks should be available on all the major local streets (Fairview, Snelling, Hamline, Lexington, Victoria, Dale, Rice, as well as the County Roads). Most of these are already accommodated, but the gaps should be filled in. - Brent Engebretson John M. Kysylyczyn wrote: > Actually I have one relative and three friends who live on County Road C. Three of the four have addresses on C. The fourth lives on a side street and his side yard abuts County Road C, (he is also a former council member). I also drive C several times a week. That is where I derive my statistics from. > > I wish the city kept statistics on this but we all know that one reason they won't do this is because the numbers would be embarrassing. Imagine doing a cost benefit analysis and finding that we could have bought every walker a BMW for less taxpayer funds. Tough to explain away that kind of idiotic spending. > > I have challenged city leaders to place a sidewalk bond issue on the ballot. They will never do that. Tough to advocate for spending millions more on sidewalks when the voters would most likely in my opinion vote it down 60/40 or more. But hey, prove me wrong. I would welcome that. Unfortunately no one there with the guts to accept the challenge. They claim that everyone wants sidewalks but actually it is a handful of citizen lobbyists who want them, not anywhere near the majority or even a sizable minority. > > I could set up video cameras at my friend's places, and have them record 24/7 for a week, and then get the number of users. So what if I find out that 5 people a day use the multi-million dollar sidewalk that costs $5,000 a mile to maintain a year. Will the city pass a moratorium on even talking about sidewalks for let's say 5 years? Not a chance. Some of our city leaders like spending money on things like this because it generates ribbon cutting photographs for reelection campaigns. > > Some may think that I am cynical. Well I served four years in this city and have probably worked on over 100 other political campaigns. Roseville isn't the only city like this. > > What is unfortunate is that elected officials don't think more deeply about the cost benefits of the crazy things that they propose to spend money on. But nowhere on a cost benefit analysis is there a value placed on that ribbon cutting reelection photo... because that is priceless. > > > Concerning Parkview, I am really curious to hear how many students walk down Victoria Street to get there since I believe the school is considered a magnet school that serves the entire district and also students in Saint Paul, etc. How many kids are coming from that neighborhood a block or two radius NW of B and Victoria?
> > John M. Kysylyczyn > K Solutions LLC, owner > K Care LLC, owner > 3083 Victoria Street > Roseville, MN 55113 > email: <email obscured> > home office: (651) 484-1384 > > www.ksolutionsllc.com > Mayor of Roseville, MN 2000-2004 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: <email obscured> <email obscured>] > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:00 PM > To: <email obscured> > Subject: [Roseville] In support of sidewalks. > > Mr. K, do you mind standing out on County Rd C to get some statistics for your user numbers? I'm truly curious. Perhaps this study has been performed and I am unaware? > > I don't believe Lisa was advertising everyone to ditch the car, rather to think more deeply about the choices we make. People enjoy using many modes of transportation and I think we are all quite aware that our lifestyle depends on a on a motor-centric culture. I don't quite understand the connection between my food arriving on a truck and me not wanting the option to walk to the store to pick it up but I'm sure I will eventually figure it out. > Nicole Waxmonsky-Tu > Falcon Heights > Info about Nicole Waxmonsky-Tu: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/nicoletu > > View all messages on this topic at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/Ad5t92NpMJKatgNXm4Drm > ----------------------------------------- > To post, e-mail: <email obscured> > Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" > in subject, then send to: <email obscured> > > More information about Roseville Issues Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net > > Roseville Issues Forum > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues/stats.html > > > John Kysylyczyn > Roseville > Info about John Kysylyczyn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/johnmkysylyczyn > > View all messages on this topic at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5B6WblGK7DK6jspB9Vbjta > ----------------------------------------- > To post, e-mail: <email obscured> > Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" > in subject, then send to: <email obscured> > > More information about Roseville Issues Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net > > Roseville Issues Forum > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues/stats.html >
John, in answer to your Parkview question, the district has a two-mile walking boundary for all of its schools, grades 7 - 12 (http://www.roseville.k12.mn.us/trans/attendance.cfm). Parkview is a K-8 school so 7th and 8th graders would need to walk or find some other mode of transportation to get to school. Since Parkview is on the southside of Hwy 36, Victoria and Dale are really the only routes a school-aged pedestrian can take to get to school from the north side of Hwy 36. Just to put my two cents in, I would like to see a sidewalk put in at Victoria for pedestrian safety issues. I think sidewalks should be available on all the major local streets (Fairview, Snelling, Hamline, Lexington, Victoria, Dale, Rice, as well as the County Roads). Most of these are already accommodated, but the gaps should be filled in. - Brent Engebretson John M. Kysylyczyn wrote: > Actually I have one relative and three friends who live on County Road C. Three of the four have addresses on C. The fourth lives on a side street and his side yard abuts County Road C, (he is also a former council member). I also drive C several times a week. That is where I derive my statistics from. > > I wish the city kept statistics on this but we all know that one reason they won't do this is because the numbers would be embarrassing. Imagine doing a cost benefit analysis and finding that we could have bought every walker a BMW for less taxpayer funds. Tough to explain away that kind of idiotic spending. > > I have challenged city leaders to place a sidewalk bond issue on the ballot. They will never do that. Tough to advocate for spending millions more on sidewalks when the voters would most likely in my opinion vote it down 60/40 or more. But hey, prove me wrong. I would welcome that. Unfortunately no one there with the guts to accept the challenge. They claim that everyone wants sidewalks but actually it is a handful of citizen lobbyists who want them, not anywhere near the majority or even a sizable minority. > > I could set up video cameras at my friend's places, and have them record 24/7 for a week, and then get the number of users. So what if I find out that 5 people a day use the multi-million dollar sidewalk that costs $5,000 a mile to maintain a year. Will the city pass a moratorium on even talking about sidewalks for let's say 5 years? Not a chance. Some of our city leaders like spending money on things like this because it generates ribbon cutting photographs for reelection campaigns. > > Some may think that I am cynical. Well I served four years in this city and have probably worked on over 100 other political campaigns. Roseville isn't the only city like this. > > What is unfortunate is that elected officials don't think more deeply about the cost benefits of the crazy things that they propose to spend money on. But nowhere on a cost benefit analysis is there a value placed on that ribbon cutting reelection photo... because that is priceless. > > > Concerning Parkview, I am really curious to hear how many students walk down Victoria Street to get there since I believe the school is considered a magnet school that serves the entire district and also students in Saint Paul, etc. How many kids are coming from that neighborhood a block or two radius NW of B and Victoria?
John Kysylyczyn said:
"Yeah someone is going to cry childhood obesity, make them walk. Well I
respond
with the phrase "roving pedophiles in vehicles looking for kids walking to
school". Battle childhood obesity by enrolling your kids in safe afterschool
activities rather than have them walk the sidewalks unsupervised."
***** ***** *****
While I don't support spending money on sidewalks that won't be used, the
above philosophy makes me cringe.
I'm less concerned about childhood obesity than children learning
independence. Ever since Adam Walsh, a lot of that has gone away. How sad.
Please read all the statements as some are repeated to refresh memories... John Kysylyczyn said: "Yeah someone is going to cry childhood obesity, to make them walk. Well I respond with the phrase "roving pedophiles in vehicles looking for kids walking to school". Battle childhood obesity by enrolling your kids in safe afterschool activities rather than have them walk the sidewalks unsupervised." John Wilson of Minneapolis replied, "While I don't support spending money on sidewalks that won't be used, the above philosophy makes me cringe. The Roseville Police Department said today at 4:36PM in an email to residents, "On July 18, 2009, police were dispatched to a possible luring attempt. Around 5pm at the intersection of Shryer Avenue and Fairview Avenue, a black male pulled over next to an 11 year old girl who was walking and asked her to come over to his car because he wanted to "sell" something to her. She said "no" and he drove off. The man is described as 19 to 25 years of age, with no facial hair, no visible scars, marks or tattoos, bald head, wearing a black/gray long-sleeved shirt and white-framed sunglasses with flip-down yellow lens. The vehicle he was seen driving was reported as a white sedan. If you have any additional information regarding this incident, please contact Detective Maureen Sikorra at (651) 792-7216. John Kysylyczyn responds, "That police statement couldn't have made my point more clear." John M. Kysylyczyn K Solutions LLC, owner K Care LLC, owner 3083 Victoria Street Roseville, MN 55113 email: <email obscured> home office: (651) 484-1384 www.ksolutionsllc.com Mayor of Roseville, MN 2000-2004
-----Original Message-----
From: <email obscured> <email obscured>]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:00 PM
To: <email obscured>
Subject: [Roseville] In support of sidewalks.
John Kysylyczyn said:
"Yeah someone is going to cry childhood obesity, make them walk. Well I
respond
with the phrase "roving pedophiles in vehicles looking for kids walking to
school". Battle childhood obesity by enrolling your kids in safe afterschool
activities rather than have them walk the sidewalks unsupervised."
***** ***** *****
While I don't support spending money on sidewalks that won't be used, the
above philosophy makes me cringe.
I'm less concerned about childhood obesity than children learning
independence. Ever since Adam Walsh, a lot of that has gone away. How sad.
John Wilson
Whittier, Minneapolis
Info about John Wilson: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/johnwilson
View all messages on this topic at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1tlohbQIKaZJ14hUWD2tBF
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So that's it, then? This is the nail in the coffin for sidewalks? Perhaps we need to rip up and remove the sidewalks we already have in order to save on the maintenance cost for them and to prevent those who despise the thought of sidewalks from having to look at such eyesores. I find the argument that pedestrians/bikers should take up collections for pathways to be a bit disingenuous. I donate by paying property taxes. I cannot imagine that every paved driving surface in Roseville is a CSAH so gasoline taxes clearly do not pay for all road maintenance/improvements in Roseville. So I am left to assume that at least some portion of my property taxes goes to pay for roads whether I drive or not -- in other words no driver is paying the full cost of every road they drive on. I think an urban/suburban municipal government has a responsibility to provide -- or at least accommodate -- multiple transportation alternatives. How to divvy up scarce property tax dollars is a different (although closely related) matter. I don't think this argument should be cast as cars vs. bikes or drivers vs. bicyclists. These are not mutually exclusive constituencies; I can be a driver OR a bicyclist OR a pedestrian all in the same day depending on my destination and purpose. We're not St. Paul, as John K. has pointed out, we're not zoned like St. Paul; so I don't expect 3- or 4-ft wide sidewalks on both sides of every street. What I would like to see, however, at a minimum is to continue to build out the existing pathways so that they form a coherent network. I don't even believe that a separate infrastructure is completely necessary, perhaps we can make our existing network work better. I would assume the marginal cost of making a roadway slightly wider or painting the stripes differently to create a "dedicated" bike lane is probably in many cases lower than building a completely separate pathway as there is on Cty Rd. C. Robin On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 6:51 PM, John M. Kysylyczyn
<email obscured>>wrote: > Please read all the statements as some are repeated to refresh memories... > > > John Kysylyczyn said: > > "Yeah someone is going to cry childhood obesity, to make them walk. Well I > respond with the phrase "roving pedophiles in vehicles looking for kids > walking to school". Battle childhood obesity by enrolling your kids in safe > afterschool activities rather than have them walk the sidewalks > unsupervised." > > > John Wilson of Minneapolis replied, > > "While I don't support spending money on sidewalks that won't be used, the > above philosophy makes me cringe. > > > The Roseville Police Department said today at 4:36PM in an email to > residents, > > "On July 18, 2009, police were dispatched to a possible luring attempt. > Around 5pm at the intersection of Shryer Avenue and Fairview Avenue, a > black male pulled over next to an 11 year old girl who was walking and asked > her to come over to his car because he wanted to "sell" something to her. > She said "no" and he drove off. The man is described as 19 to 25 years of > age, with no facial hair, no visible scars, marks or tattoos, bald head, > wearing a black/gray long-sleeved shirt and white-framed sunglasses with > flip-down yellow lens. The vehicle he was seen driving was reported as a > white sedan. If you have any additional information regarding this > incident, please contact Detective Maureen Sikorra at (651) 792-7216. > > > John Kysylyczyn responds, > > "That police statement couldn't have made my point more clear." > > > John M. Kysylyczyn > K Solutions LLC, owner > K Care LLC, owner > 3083 Victoria Street > Roseville, MN 55113 > email: <email obscured> > home office: (651) 484-1384 > > www.ksolutionsllc.com > Mayor of Roseville, MN 2000-2004 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: <email obscured> <email obscured>] > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:00 PM > To: <email obscured> > Subject: [Roseville] In support of sidewalks. > > John Kysylyczyn said: > > "Yeah someone is going to cry childhood obesity, make them walk. Well I > respond > with the phrase "roving pedophiles in vehicles looking for kids walking to > school". Battle childhood obesity by enrolling your kids in safe > afterschool > activities rather than have them walk the sidewalks unsupervised." > > ***** ***** ***** > > While I don't support spending money on sidewalks that won't be used, > the above philosophy makes me cringe. > > I'm less concerned about childhood obesity than children learning > independence. Ever since Adam Walsh, a lot of that has gone away. How sad. > > John Wilson > Whittier, Minneapolis > Info about John Wilson: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/johnwilson > > View all messages on this topic at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1tlohbQIKaZJ14hUWD2tBF > ----------------------------------------- > To post, e-mail: <email obscured> > Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" > in subject, then send to: <email obscured> > > More information about Roseville Issues Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net > > Roseville Issues Forum > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues/stats.html > > > John Kysylyczyn > Roseville > Info about John Kysylyczyn: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/johnmkysylyczyn > > View all messages on this topic at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2lo2OGacOcrdQzrJ6w7UGg > ----------------------------------------- > To post, e-mail: <email obscured> > Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" > in subject, then send to: <email obscured> > > More information about Roseville Issues Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net > > Roseville Issues Forum > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues/stats.html >
"I donate by paying property taxes." You do not donate by paying property taxes. Property taxes are a legal assessment against your property that you will pay or lose the property. Donations are freely given without a presumed obligation or satisfaction of an assumed obligation. If you want to donate, donate to a bike organization or a religious institution or some other organization, but don't assume your (or mine) taxes is somehow a donation. Back on topic, frankly, I find sidewalks/pathways next to roads to be terrible bike riding locations. The street is much safer, as pointed out by Mike B. Also, I don't worry about trying to find some alternate bike path, because if a road goes there, I can go there with my bike. Bikes on sidewalks are hard for drivers to see and hard for drivers to judge bike speed. Sidewalks are good, for pedestrians. But if you are bike riding for fitness or transportation, ride on the road and be happy. - Tom
True. But -- generally speaking -- the property tax dollars I pay do not vanish into a black hole. They're spent on *something* or they're saved. So I believe one of the items that property taxes should help fund is a transportation infrastructure... an infrastructure that should accomodate differing modes of transport. I shouldn't have to take up separate donations for sidewalks or bike paths simply because cars don't drive on them.
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:24 AM, <email obscured>> wrote: > "I donate by paying property taxes." You do not donate by paying property > taxes. Property taxes are a legal assessment against your property that you > will pay or lose the property. Donations are freely given without a > presumed obligation or satisfaction of an assumed obligation. If you want > to donate, donate to a bike organization or a religious institution or some > other organization, but don't assume your (or mine) taxes is somehow a > donation. > >
Mr. Kysylyczyn:
The timing of my post on kids walking to school was very unfortunate. That
said, our culture has gotten to where kids get no experience learning how to
make their own decisions. Then when they're teenagers or even legal adults and
we blame them for being "irresponsible", is it really their fault if they never
had any independent "life" experience? Please note that in the case you
mentioned, the girl said no and the guy drove off. Incident over. She did the
right thing (and IMHO learned something by doing so).
I was a seasoned traveller (by myself) on the city buses by age 13-14 (c.
1980). My hobby was riding the different bus routes (including the old North
Suburban Lines on Rice St.) It wasn't unusual for parents in the 1970s to let
their (elementary school age) kids look at toys at Kmart and Target while they
shopped in other parts of the store. Try that now and you might have to worry
about your kid getting abducted -- by the security guard, and your name
embarrassingly called out on the P.A. system!
90+% of all kidnappings relate to custody disputes (not that that's good,
but at least that danger is somewhat predictable). "Stranger danger" abductions
are, thankfully, quite rare. Yes, precautions should be taken. Yes, teach your
kids how to handle bad situations. But it's still a good thing when kids get to
learn things on their own. Walking or bicycling to school or taking a city bus
with the general public, or going alone to the neighbourhood convenience store
for a snack, or playing unsupervised at the local playground, are all useful
tools for learning to live. We are headed for a societal disaster if we raise a
generation of kids with no practice at independent action and then suddenly
turn them loose at age 18 when we think they're finally "ready".... Just my
opinion, now I'll drop the subject.
Unfortunately, Mr. Wilson, I fear the horse is long out of the barn re. kids, their safety, and independent decision-making. We can't build something based on our wish that things were different, no matter how sad the present reality. At its worst interpretation, what you basically said was that it would be good for kids to risk getting abducted now and then, because it will give them valuable experience in how to make a difficult decision. I myself grew up in a town of about 30,000 where I could hop on my bike upon awakening in the morning, shout a brief "bye" to my mom, be gone till dusk or even later, and no one thought a thing about it. If my own daughter (12 years old) did that today, I'd be nuts by 9 am. And, sorrily, with justification. So, no one laments those days more than I - but I don't think we can include this in the list of "pros" in the sidewalk debate. Mike Boguszewski In a message dated 7/23/2009 1:06:14 P.M. Central Daylight Time, <email obscured> writes: Mr. Kysylyczyn: The timing of my post on kids walking to school was very unfortunate. That said, our culture has gotten to where kids get no experience learning how to make their own decisions. Then when they're teenagers or even legal adults and we blame them for being "irresponsible", is it really their fault if they never had any independent "life" experience? Please note that in the case you mentioned, the girl said no and the guy drove off. Incident over. She did the right thing (and IMHO learned something by doing so). I was a seasoned traveller (by myself) on the city buses by age 13-14 (c. 1980). My hobby was riding the different bus routes (including the old North Suburban Lines on Rice St.) It wasn't unusual for parents in the 1970s to let their (elementary school age) kids look at toys at Kmart and Target while they shopped in other parts of the store. Try that now and you might have to worry about your kid getting abducted -- by the security guard, and your name embarrassingly called out on the P.A. system! 90+% of all kidnappings relate to custody disputes (not that that's good, but at least that danger is somewhat predictable). "Stranger danger" abductions are, thankfully, quite rare. Yes, precautions should be taken. Yes, teach your kids how to handle bad situations. But it's still a good thing when kids get to learn things on their own. Walking or bicycling to school or taking a city bus with the general public, or going alone to the neighbourhood convenience store for a snack, or playing unsupervised at the local playground, are all useful tools for learning to live. We are headed for a societal disaster if we raise a generation of kids with no practice at independent action and then suddenly turn them loose at age 18 when we think they're finally "ready".... Just my opinion, now I'll drop the subject. John Wilson Whittier, Minneapolis Info about John Wilson: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/johnwilson View all messages on this topic at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7H1tzEya4MVWuIWuYvW4yE
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Mr. Bogusewski:
I understand you're concerns. However, nothing in life is perfectly safe.
The issue is what's an acceptable risk level. I'm not some hardnosed
conservative libertarian who thinks no one should be protected from anything. I
am in fact a Communist who believes in "one for all, and all for one" when it
comes to economics.
Only about 100 children per year are kidnapped in the USA in a
sterotypical "stranger danger" context. The risk is really miniscule, almost
like a reverse Powerball lottery, but I can understand if you're this week's
"big loser" you'll be pretty upset....
Worried about your 12-year-old daughter? Two words: Cell phone. Great
invention that alleviates worries....
See link:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/child_abduction/4.html
Whoa people. Back to the topic of a sidewalk from Sandhurst Drive to Cty Rd B along Victoria... I have spoken in favor in the past...as I live on Sandhurst and cannot walk around my block safely, in my opinon. The little stretch of Victoria, the northbound lane that "disappears" at the bridge, is treacherous. Yesterday, I was in my car returning from Target, heading east on B...turned left at Victoria, and there was an elderly couple out for a walk in the street. I don't know these people, but have seen them often walking in the neighborhood. Often I cut over to the east lane pretty quickly because I have to catch my right turn onto Sandhurst, and JK may be on his way home and its 40 mph and he has complained in the past about slow traffic in this region approaching the bridge. (We have 'discussed' how important it is for us Sandhurst residents to be in that right lane so the folks heading north over the bridge can maintain their speed) Of course, I did not hit the elderly couple, or this discussion would now be entirely moot. The outcry for a sidewalk there would be thunderous. But I could have been distracted, and I could have hit them. Unlike me, who leaps onto the blvd, when necessary, they would have been "toast". I suggest you all come on over...take a walk...see for yourselves.
Greetings all: As a practical matter from my view of transportation, the following is quoted from my 2006 blog post: Transportaion and Human Rights. 24 January 2006 "Walking and bicycling transportation are very human and basic forms of access. All roads, all bridges, all streets, all interstate freeway/expressways, and all highways (so called) should have equivalent corresponding, adjacent, or inclusive (where applicable), facility for walking, bicycling and handicapped access. Everyone has a right to be able to get to and from work, obtain food and clothing, get to and from school safely, and meet with family and friends as human beings with or without a physical handicap. I think human access is a basic fundamental human right." My Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary provides the definition of the word highway, and reads: “#1. any road freely open to everyone; a public road” If a structure does not have facility for walk, bike, and handicapped access/mobility, it cannot technically be called a highway. As for sidewalks, all streets should have as a minimum a sidewalk for walk and handicapped access/mobility. And this should be equivalent in function to the rest of the street. A "complete street" is usable by everyone. -Paul Nelson Ward 4 D11 Saint Paul
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