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Latest post made by Ken Yokanovich at Jun 12 16:09 UTC

From: Ken Yokanovich Date: Jun 09 19:37 UTC Short link

Read in Sunday's Pioneer Press the article about a new program rolling out
in Roseville with the goal of educating residents about city code
violations.

Full article can be read online: http://www.twincities.com/ci_9506728

"The city is launching a pilot inspection program this month called the
Neighborhood Enhancement Program. Code inspectors will systematically
inspect neighborhoods, instead of driving around town chasing complaints.

The idea is to keep residents educated and prevent serious code violations,
city manager Bill Malinen said. "

The article mentions the community visioning process: "The idea came from
Imagine Roseville 2025, a community study in which residents were asked
about their vision and priorities for the city."

While I think the idea of attempting to "educate residents" might be a bit
lofty, overall I think this is a great idea.  I think a fair and
consistently applied city code that is actually enforced could go a long way
toward encouraging people to keep up their property.

Is the idea of having staff go looking for potential violations taking
things too far?

Does this fall into the "an ounce of prevention is worth pound of cure" camp
by not waiting too long for the squeaky wheel?

What are your thoughts?

From: Sarah Brodt Lenz Date: Jun 09 22:01 UTC Short link

I think this is a great idea.? We were "victimized" about 18 years ago by an
overzealous inspector who was quick to ticket and reluctant to reveal what the
corrective action was.? It took weeks to discover that the ordinance we had
violated was "parking on an unimproved surface."? We were parking on the
boulevard grass at the time because the City had sent us a notice to move our
cars because they were going to trim trees around the power lines and our cars
were in the way.? We ended up not having to pay but it was a bunch of wasted
time trying to ge it straightened out.

S Lenz

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Yokanovich <reflector.collector@gmail.com>
To: RIF <roseville-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 2:37 pm
Subject: [RIF] Roseville / Code program educates residents

Read in Sunday's Pioneer Press the article about a new program rolling out
in Roseville with the goal of educating residents about city code
violations.

Full article can be read online: http://www.twincities.com/ci_9506728

"The city is launching a pilot inspection program this month called the
Neighborhood Enhancement Program. Code inspectors will systematically
inspect neighborhoods, instead of driving around town chasing complaints.

The idea is to keep residents educated and prevent serious code violations,
city manager Bill Malinen said. "

The article mentions the community visioning process: "The idea came from
Imagine Roseville 2025, a community study in which residents were asked
about their vision and priorities for the city."

While I think the idea of attempting to "educate residents" might be a bit
lofty, overall I think this is a great idea.  I think a fair and
consistently applied city code that is actually enforced could go a long way
toward encouraging people to keep up their property.

Is the idea of having staff go looking for potential violations taking
things too far?

Does this fall into the "an ounce of prevention is worth pound of cure" camp
by not waiting too long for the squeaky wheel?

What are your thoughts?

--
Ken Yokanovich
Roseville, MN
http://reflectorcollector.blogspot.com

Ken Yokanovich
Roseville
Info about Ken Yokanovich: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/kenyokanovich

This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2gl66iiCwzBWTGcCRylqLU
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From: John Kysylyczyn Date: Jun 09 22:20 UTC Short link

Ken,

Glad you asked for thoughts.

I find the city council and city manager to be somewhat hypocritical on this
issue in general.  You know the phrase about not throwing stones in glass
houses?  Well it applies here.

I drive by several of our parks on a regular basis and the first thing I see
are the massive ugly dumpsters sitting right out in the open.  It is funny that
all of us lowly residents are supposed to have our garbage cans shielded from
public view but the city can leave dumpsters the size of small cars just
sitting out in the middle of parking lots.

Then I recall the GT building, I believe that was the name, which sat on the
southeast corner of County Road C and Fairview for many years.  The city owned
that dump also.  Again, the rules don't apply to city hall.  Finally when they
did that water project which ended up flooding out and destroying that nice
family's home in that neighborhood, they tore down the GT building.

Then take a drive past the public works yard.  If I'm not mistaken, it looks
like a lot of outdoor storage exists there.  Try doing that on your personal
property and see what happens.  While I have not done any in-depth study of
this specific issue, I have this sneaking suspicion that activities in our
public works yard would not be allowed on commercial properties.  In other
words, only the city can have a "yard" operation.

If memory serves correct, the city also had a dumping ground that still exists
or existed for many years up until the last few years over by 280.

For those who remember the old city hall building.  Remember the weed patches
and disgusting landscaping that existed as you walked in to the building?  One
resident who sat on that Imagine Roseville steering committee always commented
to me how trashy that looked.

Then I drive by some of the Twin Lakes properties.  They have looked like a
scene out of Beirut, Lebanon for over a decade.  Well the property owners there
have deep pockets so the rules don't apply to them either.

Then remember the Deb Bloom pillars constructed by the city in violation of the
line of sight rules on Larpenteur and Lexington?

How about some of the unsightly equipment that can be seen from certain views
on the roof of city hall that was never shielded from public view?  Apparently
other businesses have had to shield their equipment.  Apparently some staff
"interpretation" gave the city a loophole to ignore this standard.

I just remember these issues off the top of my head in the time it took me to
type this all out.  Give me an hour to think about this and I am sure I could
easily double the list.

So the pattern appears to be that the rules only to us regular people, and not
the city or those with deep pockets.

------

I had to laugh about the statement that the idea came from Imagine Roseville
2025.  This is the same propaganda the city used to justify anything they
dreamed up in the early 1990's.  At that time they claimed that the Vista 2000
plan made them do it.

My guess is that the handful of citizens, yeah we are probably talking about
less than 1 tenth of 1 percent or less, said that they like nice looking
properties.  Who could argue with that?  But if someone had interviewed each of
those people one on one and asked them what this means, I would bet you would
get a myriad of different answers.  This gets me to my last point.

-------

Who created these standards that they are trying to enforce?  Well if you take
a look at the code book, it becomes clear that they probably have their roots
in the 1960's.  In other words, about two generations ago, by decision makers
who have passed away long ago.

So when was the last time the community was invited to sit down and review
community standards?  Well as far as I can tell, the answer is NEVER.  When was
the last time the council did a comprehensive review of this section of the
code book?  Well as far as I can tell, there is no evidence of this happening
in the past 15 years.  Maybe the answer is NEVER to this question also.

This should seriously concern every resident of this community.  In the absence
of any council review and/or any citizen review, what has happened is the city
laws get old, outdated, obsolete, etc and nothing is done about it.  Now what
is troubling about this is when there is ambiguity, which is the category that
the majority of the city laws in this area fall under, the staff feels that
they can "reinterpret" the meaning of the law.

Reinterpreting the law is a fancy way of saying that city employees can change
the meaning of laws and apply them in ways never intended by the city council.
They do this without any notification to the council, notification to the
public, or any public hearing.  When the council is sleeping on the job, staff
can do whatever they want.  Yes this is an affront to the democratic process.

Oh but people will say that we have good staff people that live with us in our
community and they share our standards so that's ok if we skip the public
process.  Not exactly true though.  Of the three people basically in charge of
this process, none live in Roseville.  One lives in Robbinsdale and the other
in Anoka County somewhere in the Lino Lakes/Blaine area.  Only one lives in a
neighboring city.  So yes, out of town people are setting the standards for
Roseville.  Yes, out of county people are setting the standards for Roseville.
To look at the bright side, at least these people live in Minnesota.

------

Up until recently, this backwards system where out of town employees set
standards for the community concerned me, but not to the level it does today.

Just a few weeks ago, on a 3-1 vote, the Roseville city council stripped
citizens of a right to appeal ALL code enforcement cases to the city council.
Led by Mr. Klausing, and Ms. Ihlan, and Mr. Roe joining him, they repealed the
rules which required ALL of the most difficult of cases to come before them.
Ms. Pust voted against this provision, and Mr. Kough stated numerous times when
he was alive that he would not support stripping citizens right to a hearing.
But late night on a Monday night, this is exactly what happened.  Citizens were
stripped of a right to appear before their elected officials.

When there was a right of appeal to the council, at least if the council voted
to move forward on a case, then it was our elected officials confirming the
standards we have in the community.  Now that this hearing has been stripped
away from residents, it is our out of town city bureaucrats setting the
standards.  (Note that the council only got about 4 of these cases a year, and
one year they spend more time bickering on things like the council seating
order than they spent on these cases)

--------

So what does this complete utter lack of leadership on the part of our city
council leave us with?  Well let me give you two examples.

In other cities, the council appoints a group of citizens at regular intervals,
like maybe every 2 or 3 years to take a look at community standards.  They
recommend changes to the council that actually follow the democratic process of
public hearings and notification.  The staff has made comments that make it
clear to me that they oppose citizen involvement in setting standards in
Roseville.  Not surprising because if citizens and elected officials set
standards, then staff cannot.

Then I love to tell the garbage can story.  Roseville requires garbage cans to
be shielded from public view.  In my survey of the city a few years ago, about
70% of the residents violated this law.  After numerous write-ups in the city
newsletter, I seems like it is still around the 70% area.

In my analysis, the garbage can ordinance doesn't even apply in 2008.  When
this law was written, we had metal garbage cans with street numbers painted on
them.  They were rusty and typically gouged by being banged around or squashed
in the garbage truck.  Well times have changed.  We now have very nice looking
(in comparison to banged up metal cans) green plastic containers with built in
wheels.  In some cities I have heard they have different color cans so you pick
the color that compliments the color of your house.  Then we also have similar
containers for those who have plant material to be taken away for composting.
These didn't exist in the 1960's.  So does this law apply to 2008?  We have no
idea in Roseville because no one wants to look at the issue.

Blaine decided to look at this exact garbage can issue in 2007.  Now remember
that Blaine is a community with million dollar homes and three car garages as a
standard in much of the city.  Well after public testimony and council
discussion, they passed an ordinance that simply requires your can to be near
your home or garage.  They just didn't want people to leave them at their curb
7 days a week.  Blaine has the same garbage cans that we have.  But they do
have one big benefit that we were denied, which is single sort recycling.  So
they have two nice cans per house where we have one nice can and then piles of
junk on the boulevard on recycling day.

When Roseville passed the garbage can laws, we were a different society.  The
statement from staff to just put them in our garages doesn't work for many
people.  There was a citizen I worked with on a home expansion project that had
a garage that was only big enough for a Model T.  We have many homes where
there are three or four drivers but only two car garages.  Heck, we now have
women driving!  Folks, society has changed.

The last thing I will leave you with is the comment I got from Roseville
firefighter and Hennepin County Deputy Sheriff Bill Chandler about two or three
weeks ago when I mentioned this garbage can issue.  He indicated that it was
extremely foolish to put a garbage can in your garage.  Issues like spontaneous
combustion or simply ashes from a fireplace that weren't completely out could
turn what would be a minor can fire into a full structure fire.  As a side
note, I also wonder what the health department would have to say about storing
garbage in a garage that was attached to a home.

------

If the city council really cared about this issue beyond the headlines in the
newspaper, they would address all of these issues.  In fact I know they do not
care because when the Housing and Redevelopment Authority said they would like
to work on these issues, they were publicly rebuffed by the city council.

John M. Kysylyczyn
K Solutions LLC, owner
3083 Victoria Street
Roseville, MN  55113
email: <email obscured>
home office: (651) 484-1384

www.ksolutionsllc.com
Mayor of Roseville, MN  2000-2004


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Yokanovich [mailto:reflector.collector@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 2:39 PM
To: RIF
Subject: [RIF] Roseville / Code program educates residents

Read in Sunday's Pioneer Press the article about a new program rolling out
in Roseville with the goal of educating residents about city code
violations.

Full article can be read online: http://www.twincities.com/ci_9506728

"The city is launching a pilot inspection program this month called the
Neighborhood Enhancement Program. Code inspectors will systematically
inspect neighborhoods, instead of driving around town chasing complaints.

The idea is to keep residents educated and prevent serious code violations,
city manager Bill Malinen said. "

The article mentions the community visioning process: "The idea came from
Imagine Roseville 2025, a community study in which residents were asked
about their vision and priorities for the city."

While I think the idea of attempting to "educate residents" might be a bit
lofty, overall I think this is a great idea.  I think a fair and
consistently applied city code that is actually enforced could go a long way
toward encouraging people to keep up their property.

Is the idea of having staff go looking for potential violations taking
things too far?

Does this fall into the "an ounce of prevention is worth pound of cure" camp
by not waiting too long for the squeaky wheel?

What are your thoughts?


--
Ken Yokanovich
Roseville, MN
http://reflectorcollector.blogspot.com

Ken Yokanovich
Roseville
Info about Ken Yokanovich: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/kenyokanovich

This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2gl66iiCwzBWTGcCRylqLU
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From: Bonnie Russ Date: Jun 11 03:29 UTC Short link

My first thought is...I think I better go mow the lawn!!  My back forty is
probably about 8 inches on this evening.

My second thought is, I am a pretty lucky person to live in a city that can
afford a program like this.  Where the big problems are people not "hiding"
their trash barrels on a timely basis.  Where there are paid staff "educating"
residents on the "code".

We may find that people will quit cutting their grass completely at these gas
prices and it would do the planet a little good anyway.  I predict a lot more
tomato plants in front yards this year too, for all of those south facing
residents anyway...

I'm in favor of a pair of sheep and a couple of goats in every yard.  No long
grass, no excess trash.

I haven't read the 2025 report, I guess I probably should.  I didn't realize
that code violations were such an issue that city resources needed to be
stepped up in this area.

I am admittedly ignorant of the extent to which violations are jeopardizing our
community...educate me.

From: Kris Williams Date: Jun 11 16:24 UTC Short link

From my perspective, ticketing people for a code violation because of grass
that is too long or a visible garbage can is getting a little nitpicky.  I
wonder if the city is going to ticket me because I don't mow inside the high
power transmission tower in my back yard.  Honestly, who defines what is too
long and what are the criteria.  I seem to remember having read that to save
water, your grass should be at least 3 inches high.

I can see ticketing people for having garbage in their yard.  I can see
ticketing people if their home is in severe disrepair.

In my yard, the sheep and goats could stay well fed.  Sounds like a good idea
to me ;)

just my 2 cents...

From: Ken Yokanovich Date: Jun 11 19:39 UTC Short link

I might be naive, but I believe that portions of the city code are in place
to preserve some set of rules so that everyone benefits.  These rules help
preserve property values and hopefully keep the peace between neighbors.  If
not, perhaps nothing unites people quite like a common enemy the poor
unsuspecting code enforcer ;)

From the wealth of information that John Kysylyczyn mentions, I like the
idea:

"In other cities, the council appoints a group of citizens at regular
intervals, like maybe every 2 or 3 years to take a look at community
standards.  They recommend changes to the council that actually follow the
democratic process of public hearings and notification"

We have invested a great deal of money, time, and energy in maintaining our
home.  There is a standard of rules in place (whatever they are or how they
are determined) which hopefully help to protect our investment.  I prefer
that these rules be followed by my neighbors and consistently enforced.

It only takes one house on a street with an un-mowed lawn,  an old car
parked in the grass, junk piled up, poorly maintained structures In my
humble opinion, these are examples that contribute to the "negative feel" or
spoil the character of a neighborhood.

From: Dick Houck Date: Jun 12 15:58 UTC Short link

Ken:

You ask only two questions regarding the city launching an "inspection"
program. The answer to the first is "yes", and the answer to the second is
"no". It seems to me that we are too quick to allow the government to take
those mini steps that infringe on our freedoms and private properties and
then
all of a sudden we find that they are in our back pockets, our yards, our
homes, and everywhere else that we look, always intent on snooping into our
private affairs wanting to know just what we are doing and up to. This is
just one of those mini steps and will be followed by another, and another,
and another until we notice that all of the little ones now amount to a big
one.
 The government is not supposed to be a pro-active organization,
but a reactive one, and there is nothing wrong with being so in this
instance. If something is wrong in the city, the inspection department can
react to it when it is brought to their attention by someone and not before.
This is just another case of "Big Daddy" snooping into our private lives and
property to spy on us to determine just what we are up to that they will
disapprove of. Stay out of my yard and business unless invited in.

Dick Houck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Yokanovich" <reflector.collector@gmail.com>
To: "RIF" <roseville-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 2:37 PM
Subject: [RIF] Roseville / Code program educates residents


> Read in Sunday's Pioneer Press the article about a new program rolling out
> in Roseville with the goal of educating residents about city code
> violations.
>
> Full article can be read online: http://www.twincities.com/ci_9506728
>
> "The city is launching a pilot inspection program this month called the
> Neighborhood Enhancement Program. Code inspectors will systematically
> inspect neighborhoods, instead of driving around town chasing complaints.
>
> The idea is to keep residents educated and prevent serious code
> violations,
> city manager Bill Malinen said. "
>
> The article mentions the community visioning process: "The idea came from
> Imagine Roseville 2025, a community study in which residents were asked
> about their vision and priorities for the city."
>
> While I think the idea of attempting to "educate residents" might be a bit
> lofty, overall I think this is a great idea.  I think a fair and
> consistently applied city code that is actually enforced could go a long
> way
> toward encouraging people to keep up their property.
>
> Is the idea of having staff go looking for potential violations taking
> things too far?
>
> Does this fall into the "an ounce of prevention is worth pound of cure"
> camp
> by not waiting too long for the squeaky wheel?
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ken Yokanovich
> Roseville, MN
> http://reflectorcollector.blogspot.com
>
> Ken Yokanovich
> Roseville
> Info about Ken Yokanovich: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/kenyokanovich
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2gl66iiCwzBWTGcCRylqLU
> -----------------------------------------
>  To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
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From: Ken Yokanovich Date: Jun 12 16:09 UTC Short link

Very good points Dick.  I can certainly see the perspective of individual
property rights.  However, how does one balance that in the following
hypothetical scenario:

Person "A" moves into property next to property "B" and decides that it is
their prerogative to neglect their lawn, park an old non-operable vehicle
along the property boundary of person "B"  How does one go about protecting
the individual rights of person "B"?

We cannot pick our neighbors so we adopt some form of common rules, codes,
ordinances that govern what is/isn't allowable.  Perhaps what this brings to
the surface is (what John K raises as a point) that we need to dust off and
revisit what the codes are on occasion. And this process of revising should
probably happen on the part of some sort of citizen advisory group?

As for the argument of pro-active or reactive... That's a matter of
perspective.  By analogy, crime prevention or crime investigation?
Preventative maintenance or repair?  I am of the opinion that sometimes the
best answer is to do a combination of both, but side more heavily with the
idea that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

With the idea that the existing code being evenly and consistently applied,
I think it could go a long way toward keeping the peace between
neighbors. Who wants to be the one who has to feel like the neighborhood nag
watching over neighbors, making the call to the city to complain after
diplomatic attempts have failed to bring any action?

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:38 AM, Dick Houck <dick@houckads.com> wrote:

> Ken:
>
> You ask only two questions regarding the city launching an "inspection"
> program. The answer to the first is "yes", and the answer to the second is
> "no". It seems to me that we are too quick to allow the government to take
> those mini steps that infringe on our freedoms and private properties and
> then
> all of a sudden we find that they are in our back pockets, our yards, our
> homes, and everywhere else that we look, always intent on snooping into our
> private affairs wanting to know just what we are doing and up to. This is
> just one of those mini steps and will be followed by another, and another,
> and another until we notice that all of the little ones now amount to a big
> one.
> The government is not supposed to be a pro-active organization,
> but a reactive one, and there is nothing wrong with being so in this
> instance. If something is wrong in the city, the inspection department can
> react to it when it is brought to their attention by someone and not
> before.
> This is just another case of "Big Daddy" snooping into our private lives
> and
> property to spy on us to determine just what we are up to that they will
> disapprove of. Stay out of my yard and business unless invited in.
>
> Dick Houck
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Yokanovich" <
> <email obscured>>
> To: "RIF" <roseville-issues@forums.e-democracy.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 2:37 PM
> Subject: [RIF] Roseville / Code program educates residents
>
>
>   Read in Sunday's Pioneer Press the article about a new program rolling
>> out
>> in Roseville with the goal of educating residents about city code
>> violations.
>>
>> Full article can be read online: http://www.twincities.com/ci_9506728
>>
>> "The city is launching a pilot inspection program this month called the
>> Neighborhood Enhancement Program. Code inspectors will systematically
>> inspect neighborhoods, instead of driving around town chasing complaints.
>>
>> The idea is to keep residents educated and prevent serious code
>> violations,
>> city manager Bill Malinen said. "
>>
>> The article mentions the community visioning process: "The idea came from
>> Imagine Roseville 2025, a community study in which residents were asked
>> about their vision and priorities for the city."
>>
>> While I think the idea of attempting to "educate residents" might be a bit
>> lofty, overall I think this is a great idea.  I think a fair and
>> consistently applied city code that is actually enforced could go a long
>> way
>> toward encouraging people to keep up their property.
>>
>> Is the idea of having staff go looking for potential violations taking
>> things too far?
>>
>> Does this fall into the "an ounce of prevention is worth pound of cure"
>> camp
>> by not waiting too long for the squeaky wheel?
>>
>> What are your thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ken Yokanovich
>> Roseville, MN
>> http://reflectorcollector.blogspot.com
>>
>> Ken Yokanovich
>> Roseville
>> Info about Ken Yokanovich: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/kenyokanovich
>>
>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2gl66iiCwzBWTGcCRylqLU
>> -----------------------------------------
>>  To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
>>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
>>  in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>>
>>  More info about Roseville Issues Forum:
>>  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues
>>
>>  E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at
http://OnlineGroups.Net<http://onlinegroups.net/>
>>
>> Roseville Issues Forum
>>  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/roseville-issues/stats.html
>>
>
>


--
Ken Yokanovich
Roseville, MN
http://reflectorcollector.blogspot.com

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