I agree with Kate.

I think it is too much to expect officers to be on hand for Saturday
morning meetings, unless of course they are attending as residents or
users or whatever the meeting is about.

How about a slightly modified suggestion then.  "Open forums" are
difficult because, as Kate suggests, they will often produce an ad hoc
demand for information which, unless they are so well organized in
advance (and therefore not "open forums" at all), that they have
agendas, background papers and so on prepared.

So, why not try and set out a series of Saturday meetings, maybe
months in advance, on particular longer term issues.  The "sponsor" of
a particular topic could organize it - do the research or arrange at
least to have stats and figures that may be relevant - get people to
lead discussion and so on.

I am sure we can find many issues on which we could spend a couple of
hours in a "themed" meeting.  Things that are medium-long term or
predictably timed issues such as:

• Local development framework changes - we'd know well in advance if
this sort of thing was going to happen in the next year

• One meeting a year where neighbourhoods come and share what
celebration events (Christmas lights, Headington Fair, Barton Bash,
Fireworks, church fetes, open garden events and so on) they have
planned over the next year - perhaps being able as a result to get
help from each other and certainly additional participants and
visitors to those events

• I'm sure we could throw a few ideas together for a good couple of
hours any day of the week on the variety of shops in Headington, what
could be done to change it and what assistance we as a community say
might need to make that happen - like planning policy changes,
landlord meetings or whatever

• Perhaps, just to make them political, one such meeting could be some
kind of area hust or "question time" format for councillors (since
I've just been watching Mr Dimbleby!)

None of these type of things would need council officers.  If they
directly relate to particular council issues they're the sort of thing
that could be researched in advance by a councillor or two or a
residents' association or similar.  But they could achieve something
the area committees cannot do because they have council business to
transact on each occasion and could be oriented to finding mutually
agreed solutions for local "big issues" whicih would be positive,
rather than "venting sessions" which tend not to be positive.

Perhaps the area committee could set aside a small budget for maybe
one of these every couple of months - to pay for venues if necessary
or expenses for "expert" speakers perhaps.

Just my (several) tuppence worths...

That said, I think there are improvements that could be made in the
way the real area committees work that would enable them to be more
resident participative and perhaps less a case of each councillor
having their say in front of a mute audience on each issue!

I do not understand why we need a committee, and especially one
covering several neighbourhood forums.

Steven wrote:

> The committee is essential to provide local governance over the
> local forums.  This committee guides the overall local forum effort,
> is a point of appeal for official rule violations, and will work to
> help grow participation in your forums. If a new local forum manager
> is needed, this committee confirms their appointment and is there to
> assist them as well as make sure the civility and inclusive agenda-
> setting mission of these forums is met.

Stephanie, from your perspective is managing the forum too onerous for
you as one person?  I think you do a very good job, but we perhaps
don't see things going on behind the scenes regarding moderation and
such like which spilled over into the open forum recently when someone
complained about "free speech".  Could we not solve that by having
people assist you within the local H&M forum?  Are there disputes/rule
violations that need some self-selecting external body to resolve?  If
this is just in anticipation could we not deal with that if it happens?

Whilst I think it is good to have council staff on the forums, reading
and perhaps picking up on issues raised (though the real "incentive"
to do this most thoroughly I suppose is on councillors who want us to
vote for them some day, which seems, by and large, to be happening on
the H&M forum), I'm not sure that it's appropriate for them to take a
"managerial" role in the form of membership of a committee, except in
cases where they live and are active in a forum in their area in their
own right as residents and want to do so.  I can imagine little worse
that making it a part of someone's job to help manage the ramblings of
local residents - especially where they are "24/7" potentially!

Maybe I'm missing something?

It seems to me that the "local forum effort", unless I am reading it
wrongly, should be directed by us for our forum.

Or, now maybe I get it (by the way, that's called "grock it" in geek-
speak): is this committee replacing something that currently happens
anyway via one person - Steven himself?  Or someone at the Town Hall?
If so, then it must maintain the ultra-light touch that has made that
person or those people currently fulfilling that role more or less
invisible to the participants on each forum.  The last thing I would
want to see is some committee "directing" anything.

Personally I take the view that I'd prefer to see the forums localized
even more than they are at present and not necessarily directed by
some multi-forum overarching group.  Then again, I'm your resident
anarchist I suppose, and I don't really like the idea of the
interwebnetmail system being "managed"!

I'm writing as a council officer - at the moment, and as a resident in Marston.
Some of us can claim for overtime, but not all (it depends on your grade, i.e.
level of responsibility).   Speaking for myself (and not as a council
employee), I'm part time.  I take home less than 20k   I do masses and masses
of work in my own time, for which I'll never be paid or get time off, because
of the grade I'm on.  and that's fine, that's my choice.   but my heart sinks
when someone proposes a Saturday morning meeting (or similar).   Because, hey,
I have a life.  It's a pretty sad life.  I hardly ever go out, but I've got (to
my eyes) a totally gorgeous almost 7 year old, who has to do all manner of
after school clubs and rubbish because I have to be at work.   And who has a
Saturday morning dance class, which I can't take her to if there are Saturday
morning meetings (which, as been suggested on this forum, I should be glad to
volunteer to attend at).   And with my officer head on, I'm totally fine if
community groups want to hold meetings without council officers there.  But
then where will you all get your stats that you're all so keen on knowing?   or
who will take the minutes?

Could we move away from personal remarks please and consider at what Steven of
e-Democracy has to say.

It seems a good idea to have just one steering committee to cover all six
Oxford forums.  Do other people agree with Nicholas that it would be a bad idea
to have council staff on such a committee?

Is anyone on this forum interested in joining such a committee?

SOS.

We have been let down by our children's story teller and would ask if anyone
could take this on.

The venue would be Charles Lawson Estate Agent's on Saturday 29th Nov. at a
time to suit.
(We would suggest an hour in the morning say 11am and if poss an hour in the
afternoon say 2pm.)

Is there a person or persons on the forum - or know of someone - who could
help?

Please contact:  Jill Cummings. Telephone  07765505444

Wow! Lindsey! Thank you!

Joan Williams

Nicholas:

To quote your own words:

"Don't ever be afraid to tell someone exactly what you think of them. The
British are very good at the cultured yet extremely cutting insult, I wouldn't
have it any other way."

So... your English is atrocious; your views are bizarre; your manners are
appalling and you frequently verge on the slanderous. Some of us were dismayed
when you reneged on your statement of October 23rd that you would never post on
this forum again.

Well... I'm only doing what you suggested: "Don't ever be afraid to tell
someone exactly what you think of them."

Perhaps their Christmas rush has come early....

Joan

Our postman couldn't get a package through our letterbox at 1.48pm today
(Thursday).  So he left a card, asking me to leave a staggering 48 hours before
going to collect the package from Ledger's Close.

Why has the waiting time suddenly increased so much?  How can it possibly take
two full days and nights for Royal Mail to return a parcel to a sorting office
a few miles away?

 (And of course if I take the 48 hours literally, my earliest collection time
will be after the office is closed on Saturday, so there will be another
two-day wait.)

Electronic Democracy cannot work effectively when you have Electronic
Censorship at the same time, Democracy can only work effectively if people are
allowed to say what they really think openly, by freedom of speech and freedom
of expression.  In England Politics is done by the witty put down and the use
of sarcasm, and the taunting gibe, and the use of ruthless humour.  Here in
England we have a way of being able to be politely yet superbly rude to people
and about people, which is as it should be.  We should be able to be rude to
people if we wish frankly, in a Spitting Image, Private Eye magazine style.
That in my opinion should be allowed.
Don't ever be afraid to tell someone exactly what you think of them.  The
British are very good at the cultured yet extremely cutting insult, I wouldn't
have it any other way.
Democracy in Britain comes from things like Residents Associations, Civil
Parish Councils and City and County Councils and Central Government and the use
of the Ballot Box at Elections, and the rule of Law and Order.  Which is held
together by the Police, the Courts and the Royal Family and the Church.
Having Council Staff on a Steering Committee is utterly counter productive if
you want a forum that is OF the community, it would defeat the very object of
the exercise.
Cowley and CSW hardly seem to be functioning these days, don't run before you
can walk.

Well said Ruth!, I am behind you up to the hilt with this suggestion, glad to
see you are open minded and good to see some outside of the box thinking coming
from both yourself and Julia Gasper, this is what it needs, creative and
thoughtful ideas.  I think the Saturday idea is really good, needs pushing for
I reckon, time to break with conventional ways of doing things.  Would it be
strictly necessary to have Council Officers and other agency personnel in
attendance if it was Open Forum only on a Saturday? Surely the odd occasional
Saturday of Public Service could be done without any Overtime payments being
made couldn't it? whats a bit of giving up of one's time for Public Service
afterall?.
And on a slightly different note to get back to the point about Residents
Associations groups I am all in favour of these, and the more of them we have
in the local community the better in my view.  I still say we should have a
Civil Parish Council for Headington though, as well as an Area Committee.
And what Julia says in her post about my wanting to have more of a say in what
is done with our money, and where it goes, she has got that absolutely right,
damn right I do!.  We could do with a lot more of this outside of the box,
challenge convention, blue sky thinking and off the wall unconventional ideas.
And if you were all wondering, then yes I am a supporter of Barack Obama.

Julia, I would support your suggestion to hold some area committee meetings on
Saturday mornings 100%, as a councillor with a full-time job!  This should also
suit folk with families as it is probably easier to find child-minders among
friends and family on Saturday mornings when the latter are not working. I
think the issue with holding meetings on Saturdays may be that council officers
who are required to attend and invited speakers from other agencies would be
asked to give up some of their personal time to do this, and I assume also that
overtime payments would be involved unless time was taken in lieu. Maybe open
forum on Saturdays and full meetings on weekday evenings? Hopefully suitable
venues could be found - some book up a long way in advance.

It seems extraordinarily difficult to change times of meetings that are
attended by, or convened by, other agencies too. I had to fight really hard to
get a Neighbourhood Action Group meeting set for an evening rather than 10.30
in the daytime for residents in Old Headington and, even now, I suspect it's
just a one off arrangement without further lobbying.

I think what Nicholas means is that since the local government does get quite a
lot of our money already, he would just like to have more say in what is done
with it and where it goes.
 Would anybody agree that meetings of the Area Committees should be held at a
variety of times and places, so that a wider range of people could attend? Why,
for example, could some meetings not be held on a Saturday morning?

It was great to meet many of the people involved in efforts to build
neighbourhood Issues Forums across Oxford the other month.

The E-Democracy.Org model is citizen-based and now is the time to strengthen
that base in Oxford. While we appreciate the role of the Council in promoting
these forums, it is only with local public involvement that they will grow and
become fully "of" the community.

We are planning to increase the role of a community-wide Oxford E-Democracy
Steering Committee made up of volunteers, forum managers, council staff, etc.
who want to help grow our existing forums and spread to the final three
neighborhoods. Ideally, your neighbourhood's forum manager will be joined by at
least one other participant (particularly those interested in outreach) on this
"virtual" and sometimes in-person committee.

Would you like more information? Tell us a bit about yourself and your
interests in using the Internet to build local community. Please e-mail with
"Oxford" in the subject line to:

    <email obscured>

In the past when our forums were only city-wide, we had one committee per
forum. Now with multiple forums per community, we plan to shift to one
committee per community to make things more simple and effective.

The committee is essential to provide local governance over the local forums.
This committee guides the overall local forum effort, is a point of appeal for
official rule violations, and will work to help grow participation in your
forums. If a new local forum manager is needed, this committee confirms their
appointment and is there to assist them as well as make sure the civility and
inclusive agenda-setting mission of these forums is met.

As local forum managers replace interim forum manager Shey Cobley (thank you
Shey!) in CSW and Cowley, we want to help you increase the number of
participants on your forums significantly. In my own neighborhood -
http://e-democracy.org/se - where I too volunteer as a forum manager, we've
primarily increased our numbers to 300 with paper sign-up sheets at the right
community events. With a committee in place to push recruitment, we can share
our lessons with you. Imagine what it might mean for your neighborhood if 200,
300 or more people were interacting on local public issues everyday. It can and
will make a real difference in the future of your neighbourhood.

Sincerely,
Steven Clift
E-Democracy.Org

On 19 Nov 2008, at 15:39, nicholas fell wrote:

> Jock my dads fathers family came from Liverpool/Merseyside believe
> it or not, so I already know a bit about that sort of thing,
> although I do appreciate others probably don't, I must admit I quite
> like the idea of voluntary buy in, but the inescapable fact of life
> is that the Council has a lot of money and power, and access to
> sources of funding.

A parish doesn't particularly.  Especially in an area with two
principal authority tiers.  The city's four current parishes precept
between about £10 and £20 per household per year.  They have no more
real access to other sources of funding than any other group.  Indeed
if you want to raise money from charitable or lottery type funds it is
probably *more* likely to go to a voluntary group or social enterprise
than a local authority I'd suggest - such are the aims of charitable
funding to do things that *aren't* usually delivered by statutory
bodies.

And why does a project need "power"? - that's where the system breaks
down frankly - "power" implies force.  And there is very little
"power" in a parish or town council by default.  You would have more
problem arguing with a district council to get them to give a parish
council more power probably than to a community group, well run and
constituted.

Parishes, if anything, get lower election turnouts than even principal
local authorities, even when elections to both are held on the same
day.  If you can't get a better voluntary buy-in than the thirty-
something per cent of the electorate (not even population of course)
who bother to vote in local elections for a project it's probably not
something people care terribly much about, and not something that
statutory "power" should be used to foist on them.  If you do it as
voluntary/social enterprise your buy in need not cover a whole random
geographic area, rather the people or communities you are wanting to
help.

> I am not, as you would put it, in love with Public Authorities for a
> variety of reasons actually, I just look at things realistically and
> practically.

I would suggest "conservatively and pessimistically"...:-)
"Conservatively" in that "local government" is the traditional way of
doing such things, regardless of how inefficient or undesirable that
is (not exactly dynamic out of the box thinking there!), and
"pessimistically" in that you should have more faith in the power of
people and communities working together, often in spite of statutory
government bodies, which, once they get involved, tend to slow things
down to a crawl (though I tend to agree that parishes are more "agile"
in many respects), tinker in a way that reduces the effectiveness of
the project concerned and so on.

Think, for a moment, about what you are asking for - you want to get a
10% of the electorate petition together even to hold a referendum for
a parish.  You then have to have a referendum which has to get a
majority.  Then you elect parish councillors in elections with an
almost vanishingly small turnout which gives them a mandate of what?
Very little, morally anyway.

You might as well identify what it is you actually want to do (having
a parish is not an end in itself it must have aims and purposes to
have any popular traction) and go round the houses you would have to
do in the first two stages - petition and referendum - and sell
whatever ideas you want to see direct to people.

>  Voluntary groups can only do so much, they can't perform miracles.

I completely disagree.  It is only voluntary groups that can really
perform the miracles.  Government bodies are usually inefficient in
allocating resources and can't really react to needs as fast as people
would like.  They also have the supreme benefit of being able forcibly
to take money from you rather than have to persuade you that it's in a
good cause.  Those who do have to raise the money and get voluntary co-
operation are the real miracle workers!

> it seems to me that what you describe as wanting to see happening is
> closer to the French system of doing things.

If you refer to the commune system, then yes, I suppose I do.  And a
very good thing that would be too.  Even Parish Councils operate on
too large a scale for my real preferences - we are still, even in
parished areas, one of the lowest electoral ratio countries in Europe
(Denmark I believe it is has some kind of elected representative for
every 200 or so citizens for example).  I actually prefer the idea of
"cellular democracy" as promoted by folk like Fred Foldvary in the US,
if something has to be done by force (which is what government in any
guise is):

http://www.gmu.edu/jbc/fest/files/foldvary.htm

Jock my dads fathers family came from Liverpool/Merseyside believe it or not,
so I already know a bit about that sort of thing, although I do appreciate
others probably don't, I must admit I quite like the idea of voluntary buy in,
but the inescapable fact of life is that the Council has a lot of money and
power, and access to sources of funding.  I am not, as you would put it, in
love with Public Authorities for a variety of reasons actually, I just look at
things realistically and practically.  You have to work with what is available
to you.  The fact is that Merseyside and the Wirral have got a lot of problems,
and the fact is that the Local Authority are going to have to expend a lot of
time and effort and a lot of government money is going to have to be sunk in
the area to help sort it out.  Voluntary groups can only do so much, they can't
perform miracles.  it seems to me that what you describe as wanting to see
happening is closer to the French system of doing things.

Notwithstanding what I said in my previous post on the subject
yesterday or whenever (ie that I would prefer the highest level of
government to be at a parish/town council level), I really do question
this reliance on/love affair with public authorities, of whatever size
or remit.

Indeed, on the contrary, we should be building more mutual local
institutions to respond to local needs and to show those enamoured of
big government that things can be done "anarchically" with no power
wielding (and taxing) politicians having to be involved.

One doesn't need to have statutory powers to get on and do things.
One may have to get what statutory authorities rarely get which is
voluntary "buy-in" by the community or constituency you are aiming to
help in some way, but that of course would be a good thing and give
such a body considerably more moral mandate than most levels of
government, especially local ones.  It helps of course to have the
statutory power to rob people (ie tax) to fund your pet projects, but
again, achieving voluntary contributions from the communities you want
to help would make that stronger than one that has to rely on coercion
(ie government).

For example, on the Wirral where my sister and brother-in-law live,
they don't have community centres run by the coucil particularly.
They've never had a need for them, because they have a very strong
(still strong) network of private members' clubs (working mens' clubs,
church clubs and similar).  Because these are truly owned by the
communities they serve, via their membership, they are well kept by
people with great pride in what they have built up and are a real
centre for social and community life.  Youngsters are initiated into
the club first as guests of their parents, then in special activities
organized for them and eventually as members who understand their
responsibilities as members and know they will be blackballed if they
don't behave.

They are far more successful at raising money, for example for
refurbishment when needed, because the members understand amd want
good facilities.  They don't need to stand in the bread line of
council funding waiting for the crumbs to fall from the table once the
bus companies have been paid for the pensioners' fare scheme, say (to
pick on just one higher priority scheme).

So maybe one possible answer might be to have a meeting devoted solely to
taking questions from the floor and answering them once every so often, and
make this a more informal meeting than the usual Area Committee proceedings.
Perhaps this could be made a smaller affair held more regularly than the Area
Committee.
Or perhaps from what you say in your post Stephanie it demonstrates that
perhaps it really is time that we had a Local Civil Parish Council again for
Headington.

That a Civil Parish Council could hold local meetings more often than the Area
Committee then feed whatever findings came across to the Area Committee.  That
a Civil Parish Councillor could be reporting regularly or holding regular
meetings with Angela Cristofoli, and meeting with City and County County
Councillors on an individual basis between meetings of the Area Committee.
This is just hypothetical scenario stuff, just ideas.  i don't know what anyone
else thinks of this as an idea, but something needs to be done I think to
stimulate interest in Politics locally and motivate people to vote in
elections, make the Political process at a local level relevant to peoples
lives.  Make more people interested in going to Area Committee meetings.

I think it would be a mistake to remove planning issues from the Area
Committee, that I think is an important issue Area Committees cannot afford to
lose.  Whether or not City Councillors or the Area Committee are given more
power is a matter of why do they want it? and what are they going to do with it
once they have got it? What do they want it for? I wouldn't just blindly give
it to them because they ask for it.

I take it you don't use the bus very often Nicholas.

Bus users don't contribute to traffic congestion, so why on earth should they
be forced to endure its consequences?

People who choose to use a form of transport which makes a highly efficient use
of road space should at least be rewarded with short and predictable journey
times.Regards Noam BleicherBus Users UK Oxford Branch 078 1847 1655
www.bususers.orggroups.myspace.com/bususersoxfordFind us on Facebook too!> To:
<email obscured>> From: <email obscured>> Subject: Re:
[HMNF] Cycling to Oxford> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 02:57:04 +1300> > The whole
London Road Corridor Improvement Programme as the County Council grandiosely
call it is nothing short of scandalous, overpriced, unneeded, totally
unnecessary and a huge waste of taxpayer money. We don't need more bus lanes,
but less actually, even better would be none at all, and we could do with less
traffic lights as well while we are at it. All Road Signage has to comply with
the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, if it doesn't comply
with those rules and laws I would advise you to complain. From what you
describe it makes me believe the signage does not comply.> > > nicholas fell>
Royal Borough of Headington, City of Oxford> Info about nicholas fell:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/nicholasfell> > This topic's messages may be
viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4TK241ibRtr1f8B8mkMSHE>

Nicholas does make some valid points.  The problem with the North-East Area
committee area is that it covers an enormous area, stretching from Marston to
Sandhills.  Even if just one person from each of the six city council wards
represented were to speak for five minutes, the open session would take half an
hour.  There is never time to do justice to everything.

The same people do always seem to turn up at the meetings, but they represent a
range of residents' associations.  I don’t think that 6pm is a very
attractive time; but when I put my mind to it I can’t think of any time that
would make the meetings an enticement rather than a duty, especially on a dark
winter's night.  Councillors are made of stronger stuff than we humans.