Bonn Square
Summary
- There are 125 posts — by 31 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Bridget Bayden at 2009 Jul 05 17:15 UTC
I see a sign has gone up at Bonn Square advertising that work to transform it into a ‘dynamic urban space’ with a ‘unified, uncluttered look’ is to start in January. This work will include the planting of ‘new trees selected for their seasonal variation.’ What the public relations consultant hired to produce these thrilling words failed to mention was that the changes would also involve the chopping down of all existing mature trees, an end to the grassy areas and flowers, and the removal of the gravestones that provide a last link with the lost church of St. Peter le Bailey. All these will be replaced by a barren sandstone pavement (undoubtedly soon to be pock-marked with chewing gum) edged by a few new and small trees. Am I alone in finding this a very unappealing prospect? Walking or cycling up St Ebbe's each morning I see the understated beauty of the tall trees and Tirah Memorial against the background of the old stone wall of 1, New Inn Hall Street. A good picture showing the memorial in summer with a tree in full leaf can be seen here – http://www.headington.org.uk/oxon/streets/war_memorials/tirah_memorial.htm What can also be seen is the bare dusty earth, which turns to mud in winter. This is a direct result of shameful and deliberate neglect by the City Council in recent years. The locals and young people from all over the world relaxing in the shade of the trees and sitting on the old churchyard wall I saw last summer did so in spite of, not because of, the efforts of the local authority. All Bonn Square needs, and has ever needed, is a gardener, the occasional visit of a man with a broom and a few benches. But no, what could again be a green oasis in the heart of the city is to be swept away in favour of bland Euro design that would be just as at home in Bratislava or Bremen. Another troubling aspect of the proposed scheme is money. An Oxford Times report of 17/10/2007 indicated a £400,000 funding shortfall that the City Council must raise. This at a time when we are repeatedly told that there is a multi-million pound hole in the council’s budget, and in a year when many children’s playgrounds are threatened with closure due to lack of money. Should now be the time for the City Council to be funding such a money burning scheme? I understand that planning permission for the Bonn Square project was gained in 2006. But is it really too late to prevent what ultimately amounts to little more than an act of environmental and historical vandalism?
I agree with Chris regarding the expense involved in this and the removal of the mature trees. With the impending re-development of the Westgate Ctr, would it be possible to incorporate the re-development of Bonn square as a requirement of the planning permission, or is it too late?
It is part of the Westgate project and the developers are contributing quite a lot of money bob price Douglas wrote: >I agree with Chris regarding the expense involved in this and the removal of the mature trees. With the impending re-development of the Westgate Ctr, would it be possible to incorporate the re-development of Bonn square as a requirement of the planning permission, or is it too late? > >Douglas Nevill > >Info about Douglas: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/douglasnevill > >This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/52GCnTrKMEneiyU8wvMNp2
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It's always the same isn't it, THEY take decisions and the rest of us have to put up with it. I think it's really sad that those trees are going, they are mature and beautiful and replacing them with sad small apologies for trees is a nonsense. It's also the case that not many people know that half the field behind the ice rink is going to become a temporary car park. It was nearly the whole field, but thanks to the Green councillors, the plan was rejected. The Greens tried to call the decision in to a meeting of the full council but it failed on a technicality, I think they were going to try again. I cycle by that field everyday, it's a pretty space by the river and it's always full of birds and people. But who cares about that in the face of this nonsensical modern attitude that everyone must shop and be able to shop in massive malls totally unsuited to the centre of a small city. And oh yes, I forgot, the most important thing of a all, they MUST be able to drive in order to shop. Global warming? Oh never mind about that, let's go shopping!!
Just for the record: the decision to reject the temporary car park on the eastern side of the Ice Rink was taken by the CSW Area Committee unanimously - three Labour Councillors, one Lib Dem , one Green and one Tory . The principal case against it was mounted by the St Ebbes New Development Residents Association. bob price was a unanimousAnn wrote: > It's always the same isn't it, THEY take decisions and the rest of us have to put up with it. I think it's really sad that those trees are going, they are mature and beautiful and replacing them with sad small apologies for trees is a nonsense. > It's also the case that not many people know that half the field behind the ice rink is going to become a temporary car park. It was nearly the whole field, but thanks to the Green councillors, the plan was rejected. The Greens tried to call the decision in to a meeting of the full council but it failed on a technicality, I think they were going to try again. I cycle by that field everyday, it's a pretty space by the river and it's always full of birds and people. But who cares about that in the face of this nonsensical modern attitude that everyone must shop and be able to shop in massive malls totally unsuited to the centre of a small city. And oh yes, I forgot, the most important thing of a all, they MUST be able to drive in order to shop. Global warming? Oh never mind about that, let's go shopping!! > > Ann Furtado > > Info about Ann: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/annfurtado > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6ltOaw0QjGMl5qW9B8wkhl
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If only one had all the time in the world to trawl through the various committees and their agendas/minutes buried deep in the council website! Was the area committee rejection before or after the Stragic Development Control Committee meeting which is what I was referring to? (before I suspect) At the SDCC meeting, Colin Cook kindly told me that 'the 519 space application which was entirely on Oxpens field was withdrawn by the applicants. The second 362 space application which is on the coach park with a small section, (a quarter to one third of the space), on the field at the back of the ice rink was approved by 7 votes to 2. The application may be called in to full council in which case the decision will be put on hold until a council meeting in January.' Sid Phelps subsequently told me that an attempt to call the decision in to the full council failed on a technicality. I should jolly well think the local residents were against it and I'm glad to hear they objected, I spoke to some of them about it. My point is, that just like that beautiful tree, when it's gone, it's gone and it is so difficult to stop these decisions being taken, assuming that you've managed to find out about the issue in the first place! Given how wet that field is, I can't imagine what kind of state it will be in once people have finished driving all over it!
Browsing the web site of Graeme Massie Architects, the lucky firm whose design was chosen to 'transform' Bonn Square, I couldn't help noticing this image. http://www.e-architect.co.uk/oxford/jpgs/bonn_square_oxford_graememassie161007.jpg Is this chunky new building really part of the proposed plan?
Have you seen the even more awful chunk the developers and planners want to place in the Castle Mill Boatyard? Oxford is being ruined. Pat Schlueter
On 24 Dec 2007, at 14:54, Chris Brewer wrote: > Browsing the web site of Graeme Massie Architects, the lucky firm > whose design was chosen to 'transform' Bonn Square, I couldn't help > noticing this image. > > http://www.e-architect.co.uk/oxford/jpgs/ > bonn_square_oxford_graememassie161007.jpg > > Is this chunky new building really part of the proposed plan? > > Chris Brewer > > Info about Chris Brewer: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/chrisbrewer > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4r8DMN4jfYZ1pRM1pIwBJ5 > ----------------------------------------- > To post, send your message to: <email obscured> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," > in subject line and send to: <email obscured> > > More info about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net >
All the trees are now nearly down in Bonn Square, and it is a terrible sight. I upload a photograph taken at approximately 1.15pm today (Thursday 3 January). The down-and-outs have moved to the Baptist Church next door. Stephanie Jenkins
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Is the protestor in the sycamore on the west side still there? He still was just after 12.00. I see little is left of the lime in the north east corner - it is amazing how quickly a tree that has been growing through all our life times can be destroyed. I will say it again - I think it is environmental vandalism, and I think the City Council should be ashamed. I did take quite a few pictures of Bonn Square last week, I will maybe upload a few photos when I have the time.
Utter vandalism, I quite agree and if makes me feel very sad. So now we will have some nasty little excuses for trees put in by the developers, perhaps soon broken by vandals, an ugly new building and paving covered in old chewing gum. Delightful. Note people that I never got a reply to my question above about the ice rink field decision though I have heard that it has possibly been called in.
Bonn Square has been for a long time an eyesore. It’s a problem that has generated many pages of letters in the Oxford Mail, Oxford Times, Oxford Prospect Magazine and on BBC Radio Oxford. I find it ironic that someone has decided to protest now at the implementation of this democratically decided decision to transform Bonn Square from a dowdy and grim part of Oxford City Centre into something we can all be proud of. There has been plenty of opportunity to lobby in a democratic manner your local councillor with your preferred solution to the Bonn Square problem. The Council giving in to this protestor would be undemocratic, it is up to such protestors to become fully involved in the local democratic process, this means not only complaining about a problem, but coming up with a workable and affordable solution, that will win democratic support.
Bandying around the word democracy doesn't mean it's a decision that is supported by the majority of the population. How many people was it who marched against the Iraq war? It's the same with this forum which is called local 'democracy' but I'm sure only a tiny proportion of Oxford's population visit it, let alone know about it. Keeping up with what's going on locally is a full time job these days, and even if one did read and respond to the so-called consultation on the redevelopment of the Westgate, at the end of the day the responses always go down the route of commerce as though the need to attract shoppers to Oxford was the only conceivable way for the city to develop. As someone said in the Oxford Mail comments today, Bonn Square suffers from 30 years of underfunded lack of management. And as someone also said, what is to stop the druggies and other undesirables moving back the minute it is finished when there is, once again, no policing and no maintenance. People climb in the treetops because they feel frustrated at not being listened to, local councillors may listen if your cause marries with theirs but there's no guarantee. And even if they do listen, there is often little chance of changing things at one of the numerous committees, quangoes, talk shops and the like which substitute for genuine action now. As someone who lives in one of the flood-threatened areas of Oxford, we see just the same loop repeating itself founded on the same lack of action, funding and accountability on the part of organisations, government bodies and council officers.
Democracy is a curious thing, it seems for some people, a decision is only democratic if you agree with it and not when you disagree. If you value democracy like any other matter you have to work at it, if this means spending less time playing on your Xbox, so be it. Criticism is made of dealing with Oxford’s flood problem. The problem is providing a solution for Oxford, can make matters worse elsewhere on the River Thames. Oxford’s flood problem is a complicated technical matter requiring a great deal of expertise. There is no simple solution. Once you have decided on a strategy, there are always some who will disagree, that’s life. The next question is, do you have the resources to implement a solution. The trouble is finding the resources and skilled people to implement those proposals. Britain, now with the Olympics and other major projects is suffering a shortage of skilled engineering and construction workers. As demonstrated by Network Rail, who could not find enough skilled staff willing to complete the work on time at an economic price. The same goes for flood defences, are you prepared to have your taxes doubled or trebled, so as a flood defence program can be implemented quickly. Take Oseney Island, it is in an area prone to flooding see http://maps.environment-agency.gov.uk/wiyby/wiybyController. Perhaps it would be cheaper and better for the environment, to demolish the houses on the island and relocate the people living in Oxford’s flood plain to new safer settlements elsewhere. Even if this is the best in environmental and economic terms, I doubt inhabitants of Oseney Island would be happy, but if it means the majority of Oxford’s taxpayers will not suffer massive tax increases, I am sure a vast majority would support such a proposal. As for the Iraq War Protest, the majority of the population did not turn out to participate and there was no referendum, in fact a majority of our elected representatives supported Tony Blair’s policies and the government won the subsequent election. In fact, it is doubtful that participants shared a common cause, as they included groups mutually opposed to each other. The point is most people are satisfied with what our politicians do for us, so they don’t see a need to take an active role in politics. Instead they get on with their lives. If you are dissatisfied, the only answer is to participate, the political parties are always on the look out for dedicated skilled potential councillors.
I don't feel that either the city or the county council makes democratic decisions. The council always sets its mind on what it is going to do, and the subsequent "consultation" is nothing more than warning the masses what is going to happen. The most it ever does after receiving comments is to make a few tweaks: no idea is abandoned, because by the time a scheme gets as far as consultation, too much money has already been spent. I certainly opposed the plan for Bonn Square. Just have a look at this: does anyone on this forum really think it is the best possible solution? http://www.oxford.gov.uk/files/seealsodocs/30253/New%20Bonn%20Square.pdf Skateboarders will probably enjoy the silly slope, however. And everyone is standing exactly where the cyclists will inevitably cut a corner. One really positive effect that a forum such as this could have is to warn everyone when ideas like this go out to consultation. Everyone in Oxford will have an opinion on this scheme, but I bet most of them never knew there was a consultation, let alone responded.
Stephanie
Soooo patronising, Nicholas. I don't even know what an Xbox is. Andrew Smith
Thanks Andrew and Stephanie, totally agree with your points. Most of us are frantically busy with work and family and do what we can to address what is happening around us. The idea that most people are happy with what politicians do for us is laughable. The majority of people did not vote in the current US government, is that democracy? Every MP knows that you must multiply by 10 for each letter you receive from a constituent to allow for all those people who never got around to writing but feel the same, what does that do to the figures of those who marched against the Iraq war? Look at the polls on YouGov, they consistently show that people have no confidence in politicians and disagree with government policy. Stephanie's point about this forum acting as a potential warning point about future developments is a good one, I can't think of any other apart from the letters page of the Oxford Times which occasionally turns up trumps. For example, the vexed question of whether or not it is a good idea to have an incinerator on the outskirts of Oxford. Now there's a good subject for discussion! p.s. re doubling taxes to pay for things, that hoary old chestnut people always drag out in the hopes of frightening off those who protest about things, well, yes, I think we should all pay more all round for the benefit of all. And if successive governments from the days of Thatcher had not cut public spending to the bone, we might have a country and infrastructure of which we could be proud, instead of the cheapskate, limp along, dog-eat-dog society which we have now.
Come on guys lets not pussy foot around here. Bonn Square has been an eysore in that part of Oxford ever since the Westgate was built so I welcome a radical modernisation of it. As for the trees, well it's a shame that they could not have been incorporated into the new designs. I along with all the other residents of this city must take the blame as no one has been interested in it until now (Too late). May be thats because there are very few of us as most of the city is made up of students interested in only studying, boozing and partying and not much else I fear. I support the fact that the heritage should be preserved but there comes a time when modrnisation is necessary. In support of the council the area has been a magnet for every drunk and down and out in the city, the ground is mostly bare earth with the odd scattering of grass and I look forward to a modern people friendly rest area. People should start getting proactive and change the course of these plans early and not reactive as in this case where the law is on their (Developer) side and change will be difficult. Why dont more people attend their local council meetings or lobby their councilor where they can make a difference. Probably because the majority don't care?
From:
Anonymous User
Date:
2008 Jan 04 21:43 UTC
On the subject of flooding, Ann and others may be pleased to know that I had a meeting outside her house at the end of Duke Street on Monday with various officers, and I'm confident that some work will soon take place which should reduce the risk of future flooding for people in Duke Street and Marlborough Court. I'm disappointed that it has taken so long and such a lot of effort to get to this point and there are still some problems: co-ordination between the different agencies is poor and communication with councillors and residents is abysmal (though I believe Rebecca Carley, the CSW area co-ordinator, has a newsletter ready to go out to residents). However, funding for this work is in place, which is a relief. Various options are being looked at for the protection of Bullstake Close, and Osney Island should soon have the benefit of the demountable barriers, which the EA is buying. I am trying to ensure that the feasibility studies for Earl Street are completed urgently and that funding is in place for a culvert under Lamarsh Road and a demountable barrier at the other end or whatever else the EA recommends. The City Council has appointed a new interim director, Tim Sadler, who will lead on flooding issues, and although he doesn't start till next week, I think, he agreed to come out with me last Monday to see the flood-hit areas. He's on secondment from the Vale of the White Horse District Council, where he was also responsible for flood issues, so he's pretty knowledgeable. I was able to introduce him to Nigel Bray and we had a very useful discussion, especially about Earl Street. So work has been going on behind the scenes. I'm very sorry that communication has been so poor. I'll try to produce another ward newsletter soon to keep everyone up-to-date. In the meantime, I'll continue to read the Forum comments with interest. Susanna City Councillor for Jericho and Osney Ward 7 Rawlinson Road OXFORD OX2 6UE 01865 554001
________________________________ From: Ann <email obscured>] Sent: Thu 03-Jan-08 21:18 To: Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum Subject: Re: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square Bandying around the word democracy doesn't mean it's a decision that is supported by the majority of the population. How many people was it who marched against the Iraq war? It's the same with this forum which is called local 'democracy' but I'm sure only a tiny proportion of Oxford's population visit it, let alone know about it. Keeping up with what's going on locally is a full time job these days, and even if one did read and respond to the so-called consultation on the redevelopment of the Westgate, at the end of the day the responses always go down the route of commerce as though the need to attract shoppers to Oxford was the only conceivable way for the city to develop. As someone said in the Oxford Mail comments today, Bonn Square suffers from 30 years of underfunded lack of management. And as someone also said, what is to stop the druggies and other undesirables moving back the minute it is finished when there is, once again, no policing and no maintenance. People climb in the treetops because they feel frustrated at not being listened to, local councillors may listen if your cause marries with theirs but there's no guarantee. And even if they do listen, there is often little chance of changing things at one of the numerous committees, quangoes, talk shops and the like which substitute for genu ine action now. As someone who lives in one of the flood-threatened areas of Oxford, we see just the same loop repeating itself founded on the same lack of action, funding and accountability on the part of organisations, government bodies and council officers. Ann Furtado Info about Ann: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/annfurtado This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2lSLSuymCqx1mNgZ5wwjn7 ----------------------------------------- To post, send your message to: <email obscured> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," in subject line and send to: <email obscured> More info about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules ----------------------------------------- Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net PARK AND PHONE: You don't have to worry about having spare change if you are using an Oxford City Council pay and display car park with our park and phone scheme. To find out more visit www.oxford.gov.uk This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the author by return email.
I just love the way everyone can lone up groups of people who happen to be different from them, label them "druggies and undesirables" (Ann) or "students interested in only studying, boozing and partying and not much else" (Gus) and casually blame them for all the ills of the city. I'm tempted to create a new category - "middle-class grumpies with nothing better to do than tap away on their laptops" - but that wouldn't really be playing the game, would it?
I'm not sure that anyone is blaming groups of people for the ills of the city. My term 'druggies and undesirables' was used out of haste and because I needed some way to describe 'people hanging about' which is one of the things that apparently upsets many people and will continue to be a feature of the new square unless something different happens on the public responsibility front. My point about whether this forum is 'democratic' was exactly that it's probably made up of those who have access to a computer and knowledge, time and confidence to leave posts. Yes, perhaps we are all middle class grumpies, so, how are we going to spread the word about this forum and make sure others have their say. What term would you like to use given that we are now said to be all 'middle-class'? I would be more than happy for the homeless to have the opportunity to make posts, I'll bet their lot is not a happy one. Thanks for the message Susanna, you work very hard on our behalf and my complaint about lack of action was not aimed at any particular councillor or group of councillors, more the system and the subterfuge and sleight of hand of central government in cutting funding and making it possible for decisions to be pushed through against the wishes of local people and their representatives. This topic has come a long way from the original posting which expressed sadness at the loss of trees and frustration at the redesign of Bonn Square. This forum will be utterly useless if it descends into sneering at each other for the terms we use so perhaps we should stick to the arguments and assume the best of each other. My feeling is that mostly people do care but they are too busy to get involved or just don't know how.
At 12.30 today, Monday, thanks to the brave efforts of Gabriel and his friends, the last sycamore is still standing. It is clear they have a lot of support from local people - I had to join a queue to sign their petition. I have a simple suggestion for the City Council - don't chop down this last tree. Leave it standing to come into leaf this spring and to provide shade for the square in the summer. Show that you can listen to Oxford residents who care about the city.
I second Chris Brewer's appeal to the City Council. It would be so refreshing if just for once they could listen to the residents who pay their wages. Pat Schlueter
On 7 Jan 2008, at 12:36, Chris Brewer wrote: > At 12.30 today, Monday, thanks to the brave efforts of Gabriel and his > friends, the last sycamore is still standing. It is clear they have a > lot of support from local people - I had to join a queue to sign their > petition. > > I have a simple suggestion for the City Council - don't chop down this > last tree. Leave it standing to come into leaf this spring and to > provide shade for the square in the summer. Show that you can listen > to Oxford residents who care about the city. > > Chris Brewer > > Info about Chris Brewer: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/chrisbrewer > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/fOn0CtoLf4KlATO5Kg6Hp > ----------------------------------------- > To post, send your message to: <email obscured> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," > in subject line and send to: <email obscured> > > More info about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net >
I support Chris Brewer's appeal also. While Bonn Square may have been an eyesore, just a little TLC could have gone a long way. If it is not too late to save the last tree standing, then that should be done if at all possible.
I signed the petition too. This tree could be the saving grace of a design described by someone on the Oxford Mail website as a "scorched earth policy". Why can't that one tree be saved? It looks attractive, and marks the border between the square and the church. It doesn't get in the way of the main plan, and although it offers shade it doesn't give opportunity for ne'er-do-wells to hide. I am uploading a picture of the tree, taken at lunchtime today, in case any of you can't picture it. (I don't actually think it is a sycamore.)
Stephanie
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Though I think nonviolent direct action has its place, I do not think Bonn Square is a case where democracy has ‘failed’ and direct action is warranted. Yesterday I happened upon a newsletter of New Road Baptist Church in 1999(!) and it appeared that there had already been extensive consultation by the City Council about the redevelopment of Bonn Square over the years. Cynicism and apathy about our democratic process is no excuse for unreasonable complaint. A few months ago, there was a case of a contentious tree in the Science Area which people (including me) tried to save, through a democratic process. The City Council chamber was full of citizens, many supporters of the tree, but also some of other opinions. The tree eventually got felled, but everybody had a chance to voice their opinion, and the decision was reached democratically. ‘Bonn Square belongs to everybody’ has a specific meaning within our democratic system: it does not mean any punter can go and start an allotment there.
Oxford is full of green spaces, from college gardens to cows grazing on the meadow. I suggest as a new year resolution you all take time out and visit them, for suggest walk see http://www.oxfordprospect.co.uk/Oxfordtrip.htm
Nic – thanks for the plug for your web site, and generous advice. The centre of Oxford has very little publicly accessible green space, and is rapidly losing what little it has. In recent years we have lost • The lawn around the Radcliffe Camera – now fenced off • The garden at the foot of Carfax Tower – now the ugly Sofi 2 café • The Botanic Gardens – these used to be free every day, but now charges apply March to October and at weekends in winter The destruction of the public garden at Bonn Square is something Oxford cannot afford, that is why so many local people oppose it. Passing the remains of the garden just now I noticed a sign saying ‘Greens against Desicration’. The suspect spelling aside, this is interesting. Bonn Square is in the ward of the Green City Councillor Sushila Dhall – yet I cannot recall her or any other Green Councillor saying a single word about the destruction of the trees and garden. The Oxfordshire Green Party web site - http://www.greenoxford.com/ - certainly has nothing to say. If Sushila Dhall or one of her colleagues reads this, maybe they could let us know what they think?
Have you got a suggested favorite walk us locals could try, what about posting your suggestion on this forum. Since the walking would help us appreciate our fine citym spot where it needs improvement and help keep us fit.
Just got word from a fellow Green Party member that 40 other trees on the other side of Westgate are under threat of being cut down, and that some activists are protecting them now. See http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/oxford/2008/01/389029.html For more about Greens’ view on Westgate etc., see for example http://matthewsellwood.blogspot.com/2006/10/westgate.html Also, check the voting record in the City Council on the abovementioned tree in the Science Area: the Greens were the only consistent party against felling it.
'it appeared that there had already been extensive consultation by the City Council about the redevelopment of Bonn Square over the years' ...exactly, it gets to the point that no one bothers to take any notice anymore or is even able to remember where the process is. Just like developers who keep putting in revised planning applications, especially in August when everyone is away, until the opposition gets fed up or misses the moment through being occupied elsewhere. My experience of college gardens is that they are exclusive places that those not part of the university have to pay for the privilege of visiting. However, occasionally the university behaves more sensitively than the council and when there were plans to chop down a beautiful tree on the Headington campus a couple of years ago, they were abandoned when there was a large protest. I can't see any reason for chopping that last tree down in Bonn Square, well done the protesters. I just emailed Sushanna and got the following reply I am not currently able to access my email, please call me on 01865 553415 - so I guess it's feel free!
Dear Chris, I'm sure Sushila would have done a lot of work around the Bonn Square issue over the last few weeks, but unfortunately she has been quite ill, and has just come out of hospital. She is not currently able to access her email. Green councillors spoke against the Bonn Square plans and did not vote for them. As for our attitude to the preservation of green space and trees, you will probably have seen from the Oxford Mail that Cllr Deborah Glass-Woodin was (wrongly) arrested today while trying to argue for a 'stay of execution' for the trees around the Westgate car park - so please rest assured we feel passionately about access to green space and opposition to concreting over the city centre. Best wishes, Councillor Matt Sellwood Holywell Ward Green Party
Matt – thanks very much for the reply. I now fully understand why we have not heard from Sushila Dhall recently, and I hope very much she is well again soon. There is a problem which Ann has mentioned higher on this thread, it is very difficult for local people to follow the complex planning processes, which often stretch over years. The decisions of planning or area committees are not always reported in the local media, and it is not easy to extract relevant information from the City Council web site. Searching for ‘Bonn Square’ on the site reveals only a poorly rendered, illegible document presumably produced by the architect Graeme Massie. Nothing is revealed about how the planning decision was made and by who. I am shocked and dismayed by the arrest of Deborah Glass Woodin. The City Council is behaving in a ruthless and cynical way. It is now important for all people who care about the natural environment of Oxford to be vigilant and to make our voices heard.
Dear Matt I'm sure that you would not want to convey a misleading impression - the plans for Bonn Square mean that there will be more trees not less; and the Westgate development also involves replanting a large number of trees - precisely how many I can't remember - as well as the creation of a roof garden. I know that you oppose the Westgate but the plans for the area and the West End have emphasised the importance of replacing and improving the tree cover. bob Matthew wrote: > Dear Chris, > > I'm sure Sushila would have done a lot of work around the Bonn Square issue over the last few weeks, but unfortunately she has been quite ill, and has just come out of hospital. She is not currently able to access her email. Green councillors spoke against the Bonn Square plans and did not vote for them. As for our attitude to the preservation of green space and trees, you will probably have seen from the Oxford Mail that Cllr Deborah Glass-Woodin was (wrongly) arrested today while trying to argue for a 'stay of execution' for the trees around the Westgate car park - so please rest assured we feel passionately about access to green space and opposition to concreting over the city centre.
> > Best wishes, > > Councillor Matt Sellwood > Holywell Ward > Green Party > > Matthew Sellwood > > Info about Matthew: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/matthewsellwood > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5Vdi7seb1TVaQLlHEgw4HR > ----------------------------------------- > To post, send your message to: <email obscured> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," > in subject line and send to: <email obscured> > > More info about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net >
I'm really sorry to hear that Sushila is ill and also sorry to see that I mangled her name quite unintentionally. Hope she gets well soon and thanks for the info.
I was horrified today when passing through central Oxford to see the wanton destruction of Bonn Square. Whoever heard in advance that there was going to be anything done to it? Whoever heard any harm of the people who may have hung around there? I don't think they were an eyesore. I think that the concrete environment created by modern philistine architects is an eyesore, and the nasty little spruces or Japanese acers that they put in when they have ruined everything are no substitute for mature, native, broad-leaved trees which create the air we breathe. The destruction of that garden is yet another theft of something beautiful that belonged to the residents of Oxford. The developers may have a legal right to do it - but I still question whether they have a moral right. Without doubt the amount of publicity and advance discussion this plan got was tiny. It was not sufficient to regard the result as democratic. Unless you live very near to something, you don't get consulted and of course voters didn't go looking for plans about destroying Bonn Square to comment on them - who would have foreseen it? The council and its bureaucrats here in Oxford never stop ruining the town. They and their developer chums are the biggest vandals around. I admire the green-minded folk who have gone in to try to save that last lonely, lovely sycamore. I am grateful to Chris Brewer for drawing attention to the facts behind this case and I agree strongly with what Ann Furtado has said. If Sushila Dhall was ill, she should have deputized somebody else to carry out her responsibilities. What I want now is the whole plan to be scrapped and trees of the same variety re-planted on the original land, which should remain what it was - a churchyard. Anyone who wants to ring me about anything that could still be done to save that tree will find my number in the phone book. -Julia Gasper.
Chris Brewer Please see the following link to the Oxford City Council website about Bonn Square: http://www.oxford.gov.uk/planning/bonn-square.cfm You will find more detailed information about the project (including some legible documents) as well as information about the planning decision. Chris Lee
I sent a message to Michael Crofton-Briggs of the City Council's environment department requesting a last-minute Emergency Tree Preservation order on the last tree in Bonn Square. He refused. His e-mail address is <email obscured>> Maybe there is still time to get Tree preservation orders put on the trees near the Westgate Centre, if enough people send e-mails before the weekend. I understand that it was the votes of the Labour and Libdem councillors that got this crazy plan passed in the first place. The same goes for the woeful decision to re-build the Westgate shopping centre. It's quite new and the middle of Oxford needs a rest from perpetual re-building of everything.
My view is that as far as the trees in Bonn are concerned it's not democracy that has failed, it's us. What does bother me now, though, is that if the protesters I spoke to earlier today are to be believed, Gabriel is being "starved out" of his protest by being refused food and water. Please tell me that in Oxford in 2008 this is not true. It is surely against all human rights and decency to deal with a nonviolent protest in this heavy-handed way.
I’ve just been down to Bonn Square. There’s not much happening. There were two policemen and five security personnel. An amiable security man I spoke to told me that Gabriel and friend were still up the tree, which is surrounded by tall metal fences, but that he expects the protest to end tomorrow when the City Council gets a possession order. He told me I was not allowed to walk up to the Tirah Memorial – why a citizen of Oxford can’t walk in what remains of an Oxford public garden I don’t know. So I suppose we will see what happens tomorrow. I attach a photo of today’s scene. There were three letters about Bonn Square in the Oxford Times on Friday. An excellent contribution in support of Gabriel Chamberlain from Green Councillor Nuala Young, a useful, if incomplete and partial, summary of the planning process from Michael Crofton-Briggs, and this – http://www.theoxfordtimes.net/news/letters/display.var.1953101.0.desirable_design.php from Andrew Nairne, Director of Modern Art Oxford. Now, Mr. Nairne is of course entitled to his view, but I do think he might have mentioned two things. The ‘arts totem’ in the new square will be used to advertise events at MAO, as will the flags on the tall lamp posts. So MAO will directly benefit from the destruction of the Bonn Square public garden. Also, MAO each year receives a considerable amount of money from Oxford City Council. This Annual Report – http://www.modernartoxford.org.uk/media/pdf/160107_045959.pdf on the MAO web site reveals the amount was £66,000 in both 2005 and 2006.
The following file was added to this topic:
Well done, Chris. And well done to Gabriel. I've no doubt tat the court will side with the council. As for the replacement of mature trees that we had got used to and loved, with new non-native ones, it's a bit like getting home to find that your husband has been killed and replaced with a 9-year-old Chinese boy. It's just not quite the same !
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Brewer" <email obscured>> To: "Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum" <email obscured>> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square > I’ve just been down to Bonn Square. There’s not much happening. There were > two policemen and five security personnel. An amiable security man I spoke > to told me that Gabriel and friend were still up the tree, which is > surrounded by tall metal fences, but that he expects the protest to end > tomorrow when the City Council gets a possession order. He told me I was > not allowed to walk up to the Tirah Memorial – why a citizen of Oxford can’t > walk in what remains of an Oxford public garden I don’t know. So I suppose > we will see what happens tomorrow. I attach a photo of today’s scene. > > There were three letters about Bonn Square in the Oxford Times on Friday. > An excellent contribution in support of Gabriel Chamberlain from Green > Councillor Nuala Young, a useful, if incomplete and partial, summary of > the planning process from Michael Crofton-Briggs, and this – > > http://www.theoxfordtimes.net/news/letters/display.var.1953101.0.desirable_design.php > > from Andrew Nairne, Director of Modern Art Oxford. Now, Mr. Nairne is of > course entitled to his view, but I do think he might have mentioned two > things. The ‘arts totem’ in the new square will be used to advertise > events at MAO, as will the flags on the tall lamp posts. So MAO will > directly benefit from the destruction of the Bonn Square public garden. > > Also, MAO each year receives a considerable amount of money from Oxford > City Council. This Annual Report – > > http://www.modernartoxford.org.uk/media/pdf/160107_045959.pdf > > on the MAO web site reveals the amount was £66,000 in both 2005 and 2006. > > Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum now contains the > following file > > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/file/2116-2008-01-13T154657Z > Name: Bonn Square 13 1 2008.JPG > Tags: "" > Type: image/pjpeg > Size: 951KB > > > All the files that have been added to Oxford - Central, South and West > Neighbourhood Forum can be viewed at > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw/files > > > Chris Brewer > > Info about Chris Brewer: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/chrisbrewer > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6sG3ljndoiwUUJ6sf3rgM > ----------------------------------------- > To post, send your message to: <email obscured> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," > in subject line and send to: <email obscured> > > More info about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
Chris Lee - thanks for posting the link to the web page, that's very useful. One thing, the link 'Bonn Square Transformation page 1' leads to a document that appears to be, or be part of, Graeme Massie's entry to the international design competition. Can someone (Michael Crofton-Briggs?) please confirm this is the case? And was this document one of those the public were consulted on?
Yes, that is the ghastly vision that they have on their webpage, done in
appropriately tacky commercial art, and have you seen the ludicrous, pompous
insulting jargon of the text that goes with it all?
The plan looks sterile and sanitised, the people are like zombies - or like
half-vapourized victims of nuclear attack.
The whole scheme is a disaster and a tragedy.
We need to name and shame the councillors who voted for this and kick them
out at the upcoming May council elections.
Please will somebody put a list on the site of all those councillors
responsible for the scheme and preferably all the people on the committee
that chose the revolting Graeme Massie design.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Brewer" <> To: "Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum" <> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 4:03 AM Subject: Re: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square > Chris Lee - thanks for posting the link to the web page, that's very > useful. > > One thing, the link 'Bonn Square Transformation page 1' leads to a > document that appears to be, or be part of, Graeme Massie's entry to the > international design competition. Can someone (Michael Crofton-Briggs?) > please confirm this is the case? And was this document one of those the > public were consulted on? > > Chris Brewer > > Info about Chris Brewer: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/chrisbrewer > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/SO9vHcYEP8S9DOtCl9wgI > ----------------------------------------- > To post, send your message to: <email obscured> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," > in subject line and send to: <email obscured> > > More info about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
Bonn Square, now with out the trees, looks like a really nice open public space for Oxford. From the plans, we should have something, when completed, most people will appreciate.
In today’s Oxford Mail I read this about tree protester Gabriel Chamberlain. Mr Hambridge said: ‘He wasn't very well at all. He was suffering from fatigue because of a lack of food and water and was really tired - he didn't look very good.’ So basically he was starved out. I think this should give us all pause for thought about the kind of country we are now living in.
Now that the damage has been done, can we think about trying to make Bonn Square a nice place again? It seems that the Council intends to plant a row of trees (in a straight line) along the east side of the square and a row of tall posts (also in a straight line) along the west side. May I suggest that more TREES be planted instead of these barren posts, and that the trees be scattered about a bit instead of in straight lines. We need trees to offset the starkness of the proposed new buildings and provide some transition between the old and the new. And we need some on the west side as well, to provide some SHADE on a hot afternoon. Both tourists and residents (don't forget the people who live here) enjoyed this space as it used to be, because it provided an informal grassy area to relax in, like a small park in the middle of the city. But now the Council wants to control people by getting them to sit on designated seats (hope they're not the shiny modern metal type) beneath a row of ugly posts with CAMERAS watching them. Go home Big Brother and give us back our shady little nook amongst the trees.
Chris Brewer Yes the documents on this page were part of Graeme Massie's entry. Consultation was on planning application drawings that were based on these, but were architectural drawings rather than artists impressions. Chris Lee
Thanks for posting up those links, Bridget. I like your name ‘Desolation Square’, and it was good to see the comments on the flickr site. I thought when the lamp posts and flags and CCTV cameras are in place it could be re-named the ‘Goddard Price Plaza’ in honour of the political leaders who pushed the scheme through. Possibly the re-naming could happen at the ‘parade of officials’ we have been promised. Certainly retaining the name Bonn doesn’t seem appropriate, as the people of Bonn take a take a pride in their city trees, as can be see here – http://www.bonn.de/umwelt_gesundheit_planen_bauen_wohnen/umweltschutz/baumschutz/index.html My German isn’t up to much, but my friend speaks it like a native, and she renders their tree policy thus - 'The federal city of Bonn has since 1985 pursued the goal to particularly protect the trees within the city, as trees serve to secure the ability of nature to maintain itself. The trees should be conserved and maintained due to their rareness, distinctiveness, and beauty, as well as to invigorate, define or maintain the local character. They also serve to improve the climate within the settlement. To achieve these goals, the statutes for the protection of trees in the federal city of Bonn have been adopted. According to these, in principle any deciduous tree with a circumference of 100 cm or more, measured 100 cm above ground, or any conifer with a circumference of 150 cm or more, measured 100 cm above ground, are protected and may not be felled or severely cut without permission. Details are found in the statutes for the protection of trees in the federal city Bonn.' So, if Bonn Square was in Bonn, the trees would still be there. As for Bridget’s ideas to limit the damage, I strongly agree. Especially, as I mentioned in this letter to the Oxford Times – http://www.theoxfordtimes.net/news/letters/display.var.1969564.0.forecourt_future.php - the architect Graeme Massie proposed retaining some of the existing trees, and adding to them. His exact words ‘We propose a considered grove of trees adjacent to New Inn Hall Street. This will incorporate the majority of significant existing trees and will be supplemented by additional Limes, Sycamore and Trees of Heaven.' Incidentally, I did write to every single Liberal Democrat Councillor, when the last sycamore was still standing, suggesting it was retained, to provide shade for the square. I also supplied a compilation of the many comments in favour of the trees posted on the Oxford Mail web site. I received one reply, from Jean Fooks. She said it was not possible.
Dear All, One thing that seems to have been forgotton is the fact that there are probably burials within it, and what has been proposed for it seems totally inpersonal and shows no respect for those interred. Are these remains going to be reinterred and if so where? I cannot help feeling that this is a good example of how those in power totally disregard the non-university history of Oxford. - I feel that a plaque should at least be provided (in a fairly promenent place) to mark the fact that this is indeed the site of St Peter-Le-Baily's graveyard (Could those councillors on this forum arange this?). With the lack of affordable homes within the City many decendants of Oxford families have been forced into a kind of economic exile. The result is that some of my relatives feel like "a minority". So in the spirit of celebrating diversity could the "powers that be" consider commemorating (if not preserving)aspects of Oxford's non University Heritage? Debs (DLH)
I have been wondering about the burials at Bonn Square too. When the city council did a preliminary dig there at the time the idea was being mooted, I actually saw some human bones in a heap one lunchtime. I imagine that the city council intends to leave the bones under the concrete. There could be several thousand people buried there, so it wouldn't be practical to exhume them all. It is the bones and composted bodies which have raised the level of the square to what it is today; it would originally have been the same level as Queen Street. The Tirah monument is presumably perched on top of bones, and that was put in place in 1900, not long after St-Peter-le-Bailey church was demolished in 1874 and when many people of that parish would still have remembered the dead buried there. The same kind of thing happened at the Plain roundabout where the dead of the original St Clements church are buried, and that has a memorial stone which sets a good precedent: see http://www.headington.org.uk/oxon/streets/inscriptions/east/churchyard.htm I have just been looking at the Oxford Mail & Times archive, and here is a letter from someone in Marston about Bonn Square. It was published in the Oxford on 7 April 2006, nearly two years ago: "Sir I was horrified to see in the winning architect's plans for Bonn Square published in your paper, March 10, that at least two more beautiful mature old trees will disappear. Trees of this size take over 100 years to grow and provide essential natural beauty in a townscape bereft of it. They should not be destroyed, but could be made into a feature with an area of grass and flowers around them. Those trees, if allowed to stay, as well as combating carbon dioxide emissions, could help to improve that area of the centre of Oxford far more than the concrete jungle of poles and paving stones provided by this new plan, and would be cheaper to implement." And here is an article in the Oxford Mail on 26 October 2006 about what the council proposed for the square: http://archive.oxfordmail.net/2006/10/26/110946.html So it was pretty clear from the start what was going to happen to Bonn Square, and I am afraid that I can confirm that the city council did consult properly, even though I loathe and detest the plan. Everyone who lives anywhere in Oxford has an interest in the city centre, and must bear in mind that as hardly any citizens live in the centre any more, it is they who must speak up. If the number of people who are protesting now had protested at consultation, the city council just might have modified its plans, although I don't think you can ever entirely stop them doing what they "consult" on. Stephanie Jenkins
Stephanie, I don't think it was clear from the start what was going to happen. Graeme Massie's design - http://www.oxford.gov.uk/files/seealsodocs/71055/Bonn%20Square%20Transformation%20page%201.pdf makes clear that some original trees were to be retained, and added to. But by the time the scheme came to the Central, South and West Area Committee on June 13th, 2006, it included these words - The proposed design for Bonn Square includes lowering of existing ground levels from the rear (north) to improve physical access to the front and as a consequence it is not possible to retain any of the existing trees, due to the impact on their roots, and provide a reasonable degree of public safety. It is also not possible to amend the ground levels around the existing trees to meet acceptable arboricultural standards without compromising the integrity of the design or compromising the health of the trees. All can be seen here - http://www.oxford.gov.uk/files/meetingdocs/35723/Item6(2).pdf At some point between the summer of 2005 and the summer of 2006 the scheme was radically changed. So the key question is when and why the scheme was altered. It is noticeable that many people now say they didn't realise all the trees would be lost - but given the way the scheme was changed, it is easy to see why.
I have asked Dee Sinclair and Tia Macgregor, my local City Councillors here in Headington Quarry, to make a thorough investigation into when, and why, the plans were changed, and who was responsible. Delia Sinclair has admitted to me in an e-mail that there was a change to the plans after the consultation process. She still insists that this was democratic. I don't think it is at all. A major alteration in a plan after the public consultation had been carried out is a very serious matter and somebody must be held to blame. Either the leader of the City Council or some bureaucrat such as Mr Crofton-Briggs must be held responsible. It amounts to misleading the public, and whoever is responsible, their job should be on the line. Delia has not authorized me to forward her message to the group so I am unable to do so. But I am keeping it on file! PS Desolation Square is a good new name for the mess they have left. Let it stick.
Why are there so many negative people about? Bonn Square has had more coverage than many other issues in Oxford that are far more important. It looks like there are enough people who think that the square should be bigger, better, different, and and.., so why not pool this resource into some real action and persuade the developers to change its view and not keep running it down by tagging it with bad vibes already. Building sites look like this until they are finished. Ive been involved in opposing plans for many years around Cowley where your White van man builder has been systematically converting houses into flats. This is going on all over Oxford and there is very little that can be done. Planning laws are complex and in the end the majority of developers get thier way. If they don't they just appeal and a nice man from the Deputy prime ministers office gives the OK from an office hundreds of miles away. When they do this we pay for it because the local council usually has to pay costs. If change and more power to the people is required you all need to push the government to change the laws that give developers the upper hand. For me Bonn Square has been an eyesore for many years and any change will be better. I say we move on to another subject like why Oxford householders are going to have to pay an above average rates increase and what are the council doing about all the landlords who dont pay rates because thier houses are let as student houses. Maybe if they all chipped in a bit we would all benefit and the council would have some spare cash rather than cutting back on every thing.
I am a new member to this forum, and have read with interest the comments made thus far. It would appear to me that the democratic process has been followed quite closely. Of course, one must place some scope on the term "democratic" to arrive at such a conclusion. Democracy, today it would seem, is an "electorate" composed of those with the power or money to influence coming to an agreed way forward. In the case of local authorities and the planning process, THE two most important groups are indeed represented and deeply involved in the planning process from inception - the County Council and the developers. Because the law says that consultation must take place (purely as an afterthought, mind you), "democracy" is merely slowed, not altered. As for any changes made after consultation, no one will be held responsible because the "democratic" process has been followed - the County Council and the developers have agreed a way forward. The consultation process is a farce. "Democracy" is not a farce - it is a reality that the people must accept. As citizens, there only two requirements made of us in this "democracy". First is the acceptance of class - the elite, monied class rules, the rest drool. Secondly, we, as those who drool, must accept those who rule as those who must be empowered to make decisions on our part and who by proper education and family heritage are the only ones who can make intelligent and informed decisions. Therefore, "democracy" says that Bonn Square must be lowered and in the lowering, the beautiful trees must go. I have to wonder, however, what the decision would have been had the drool class been given the opportunity of a local referendum. Perhaps the same? Or not... Don't you think that a major decision such as this should be subject to the vote of the people of Oxford? Or not... If not, then what is "democracy"...really?
I don't call it being a "negative person" to question whether city council
processes are really as democratic as they tell us they are.
I think all the people who have protested about Bonn Square have been
positive - positive about trees, positive about Oxford's history and
positive about wanting REAL democracy, not a sham.
We have council tax (not rates) and the system of charging it is
decided by national government. So if you think landlords ought to pay more
tax, you are on the wrong web-site. You should write to your M.P. or to the
rival political parties.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gus" <email obscured>> To: "Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum" <> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square > Why are there so many negative people about? Bonn Square has had more > coverage than many other issues in Oxford that are far more important. > It looks like there are enough people who think that the square should be > bigger, better, different, and and.., so why not pool this resource into > some real action and persuade the developers to change its view and not > keep running it down by tagging it with bad vibes already. Building sites > look like this until they are finished. > > Ive been involved in opposing plans for many years around Cowley where > your White van man builder has been systematically converting houses into > flats. This is going on all over Oxford and there is very little that can > be done. > Planning laws are complex and in the end the majority of developers get > thier way. If they don't they just appeal and a nice man from the Deputy > prime ministers office gives the OK from an office hundreds of miles away. > When they do this we pay for it because the local council usually has to > pay costs. > > If change and more power to the people is required you all need to push > the government to change the laws that give developers the upper hand. > > For me Bonn Square has been an eyesore for many years and any change will > be better. > > I say we move on to another subject like why Oxford householders are going > to have to pay an above average rates increase and what are the council > doing about all the landlords who dont pay rates because thier houses are > let as student houses. Maybe if they all chipped in a bit we would all > benefit and the council would have some spare cash rather than cutting > back on every thing. > > Gus Bianchini > > Info about Gus Bianchini: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/gusbianchini > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/62MIjdmRDPmGWKeKWI90bS > ----------------------------------------- > To post, send your message to: <email obscured> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," > in subject line and send to: <email obscured> > > More info about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
All, I have been asked by the Oxford City Council Planning dept to add the following information about Bonn Square:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Planning permission, Conservation Area consent and Listed Building consent was sought for the current scheme now in construction. The applications (06/00487/FUL, 06/00488/CAC and 06/00489/LBC) were submitted in March 2006. The detailed application drawings prepared by Graeme Massie, the architect, for these three applications were careful design application drawings. There were prepared based on detailed site analysis and assessment of how the scheme would be constructed. In taking the original architects concept forward from that which was submitted for the RIBA design completion to detailed application stage a more detailed assessment had to be made of the impact on the surface of the square, its angle of slope and side steps on the root systems of the existing trees. It is true that the intention of the architect at the time of the competition had been to try and retain one or two of the trees just on the New Inn Hall Street side of the square in the proposed grove of trees on this side of the square. However, for technical reasons this was not possible. The formal applications submitted in March 2006 were clear in explaining that none of the existing trees were to be retained. These applications were subject to the full public consultation including a site notice and an advertisement in the Oxford Times. There also was press coverage in the Oxford Times and Mail at this stage in the projects development. A comprehensive report was prepared by officers for the applications and submitted to the Central, South and West Area Committee for its consideration on 13th June 2006 . This enabled the detailed proposals for Bonn Square, which involved the replacement of all the existing trees with 7 new mature trees, to be considered in a public forum. This is a public meeting, its agenda is published for the public to see 5 working days in advance of the meeting and all who has written in to comment on the application were also sent a personal letter of invitation. At the area committee members of the public are able to address the elected Members. Three people addressed the committee, one of whom raised the matter or the provision of trees. The officer's report contains details of the public consultation and records that objections were received from the public to the loss of the trees. A copy of the full committee report is available on the Council web site. The issue of the loss of the existing trees was fully aired in both the officer report and in the committee debate at this meeting on 13th June. It has been clear from this detailed application stage that it was not possible to retain any of the trees as the officer report sets out clearly. A whole page of the report is devoted to this issue. It explains that local plan policy indicates a presumption against the removing trees. It goes on to explain, however, how the proposed design includes lowering the existing ground levels from the rear (north) to improve physical access to the front and as a consequence it is not possible to retain any of the existing trees, due to the impact on their roots, and provide a reasonable degree of public safety. The report accepts that there is some conflict with policy, however it recommends to Members that the tree losses and new planting should be considered in the context of the overall design and wider benefits of the development. The Members at the committee considered this matter carefully and while not all Members voted to support the applications the majority did. As a result planning permission was granted and the Conservation consent and Listed Building consent applications were forwarded to the Government Office for the South East with a recommendation that consents be granted. Such consents were subsequently received from the Government. With the grant of planning permission, conservation area consent and listed building consent the City Council followed out the full democratic process. I trust I have been able to explain how the principle occasion when the public were invited to comment on the design for Bonn Square was in early 2006 when the formal planning, conservation area and listed building applications were submitted. This stage in the overall process clearly indicated that the existing trees would be lost and was subject to the full scrutiny of the democratic process. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks
Dear Shey,
The message you have posted is an exact copy of one that Mr Crofton-Briggs
sent me last week.
I replied somewhat along these lines:-
"Subj: Fw: Bonn Square
Date: 26/01/2008 00:34:15 GMT Daylight Time
From: <A HREF="mailto:Hammerk1avier">Hammerk1avier</A>
To: <A
<email obscured><email obscured></A>
----- Original Message ----- From: <A <email obscured>">Julia Gasper</A> To: <A <email obscured>">CROFTON-BRIGGS Michael</A> Cc: <A <email obscured>">Delia Sinclair</A> ; <A <email obscured>">Tia Iqbal Macgregor</A> ; <A <email obscured><email obscured></A> ; <A <email obscured>"> Sushila Dhall (Green Party)</A> ; <A <email obscured><email obscured></A> ; <A <email obscured>"> <email obscured></A> ; <A <email obscured><email obscured></A> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Bonn Square Dear Mr Crofton-Briggs , You are not giving an accurate account of the original plans at all. Your statements misrepresent the original plans which are at <A HREF="http://www.oxford.gov.uk/files/seealsodocs/71055/Bonn%20Square%20Transformation%20page%201.pdf"> http://www.oxford.gov.uk/files/seealsodocs/71055/Bonn%20Square%20Transformation%20page%201.pdf</A> I am not referring to pictures. I quote from that document:- "We propose a consolidated grove of trees, adjacent to New Inn Hall Street. This will incorporate the MAJORITY OF SIGNIFICANT EXISTING TREES, and will be supplements by additional Limes, Sycamores and Trees of Heaven." After that plan was approved (and only a tiny number of people ever seem to have heard about it), the City Council deviated gravely from it, removing all the trees in Bonn Square and planning to replace them only with a straight line of robinia pseudo-acacias, a non-native species. You cannot convincedeceive me, Mr Crofton-Briggs, with your excuses. The procedure was not fair, it was not democratic and it never gained the consent of the public in Oxford. Yours sincerely, Julia Gasper. (and by the way, it is incorrect to address someone as "Dear Julia Gasper"). ----- Original Message ----- > From: <A <email obscured>">CROFTON-BRIGGS Michael</A> > To: <A <email obscured>">Julia Gasper</A> ; <A <email obscured><email obscured></A> > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 12:13 PM > Subject: RE: Bonn Square > > Dear Julia Gasper > etc etc HOW ECO IS MY CITY?? Frankly, not at all. > To learn more visit the results of municipal vandalism in the middle of > this historic town. > > </HTML>
Thanks to Shey Cobley for posting the City Council’s Planning Department’s account of the Bonn Square planning process. It is not true that the architect Graeme Massie aimed to retain ‘one or two of the trees’. He said quite explicitly ‘We propose a considered grove of trees adjacent to New Inn Hall Street. This will incorporate the majority of significant existing trees and will be supplemented by additional Limes, Sycamore and Trees of Heaven.’ The judging panel would have read this, and very likely contrasted Graeme Massie’s proposal with, for instance, this – http://www.mvl-architects.co.uk/page33.html - design from MVL which clearly does propose chopping down all the trees. As for consultation, the public saw on display in 2005 the original more sympathetic proposal, and this is the one many people remember. The 2006 design was not put on public display. The people who were sent a personal invitation to the 13th June 2006 Central, South and West Area Committee meeting were those who had commented on the original proposal. So anyone who had been satisfied with the 2005 design would not have been invited. With the agenda being published only five days in advance, it is not surprising that the ‘chop down all the trees’ scheme passed under most people’s radar. I would also question exactly what were the motives for chopping down the trees. ‘Technical’ reasons are cited, but I have little doubt that any problems could have been surmounted if the will had been there. But as many people in the letters columns of the local papers have noted, the City Council is hostile to mature trees, especially in the city centre. The truth is probably best seen at the end of this BBC report – http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/7186874.stm Within hours of the last sycamore being chopped down, the council spokesman makes clear that improving CCTV surveillance was a major factor. While acting within the letter of the law, in changing the plans but not publicising them more widely, I would contend that the City Council acted outside the spirit of truly open consultation. In doing so they have opened a wide gap between themselves and the many members of the Oxfordshire public who do care about the city’s green spaces. Meanwhile, I have put some photos detailing the last days of the Bonn Square garden up on flickr – http://www.flickr.com/photos/23405400@N03/sets/72157603844307511/
Bonn Square - the true nightmare
Well said, Chris. Thank you.
Please would anybody who is interested in co-signing a letter to the Local
Government Ombudsman on this subject get in touch with the forum - or me, or
Chris.
And ask your friends.
- Julia.
I don't know why I am mentioned in Julia Gasper's last post. Please do not get in touch with me about contacting the Local Government Ombudsman.
As a farewell to the graveyard at Bonn Square, I have made a webpage giving a brief history of the church and its graves that may interest some of you: http://www.headington.org.uk/oxon/burials/bonn_square/ The pictures were taken by holding my camera above the hoardings (no trespassing was involved. I was relieved to learn that Oxford Archaeology have been playing a large part in examining this important medieval site before it is itself buried.
Please would the people who contacted me offering to co-sign the letter to the Local Govt Ombudsman about Bonn Square get in touch again. I need to have your full names and a short address to prove you live in Oxford. This is a normal part of the procedure for taking a complaint to the LGO. Thanks to all. Then I will send you all a draft of the letter for your comment or improvement. One further complaint I am adding to the letter concerns the Council's waste of money on building a fortress around the building site of Bonn Square and covering it with Big Brother-style advertising for their revolting scheme. Why should we pay to have propaganda stuffed down our throat? That alone cost £12,000 without considering the costs of policing and surveillance.
Dear Shey, This message is an exact copy of one Mr Crofton -Briggs sent me last week. I replied to it as follows:- "Dear Mr Crofton-Briggs, Dear Mr Crofton-Briggs , You are not giving an accurate account of the original plans at all. Your statements misrepresent the original plans which are at http://www.oxford.gov.uk/files/seealsodocs/71055/Bonn%20Square%20Transformation%20page%201.pdf I am not referring to pictures. I quote from that document:- "We propose a consolidated grove of trees, adjacent to New Inn Hall Street. This will incorporate the MAJORITY OF SIGNIFICANT EXISTING TREES, and will be supplemented by additional Limes, Sycamores and Trees of Heaven." After that plan was approved (and only a tiny number of people ever seem to have heard about it), the City Council deviated gravely from it, removing all the trees in Bonn Square and planning to replace them only with a straight line of robinia pseudo-acacias, a non-native species. You cannot deceive me, Mr Crofton-Briggs, with your excuses. The procedure was not fair, it was not democratic and it never gained the consent of the public in Oxford. Yours sincerely, Julia Gasper. (and by the way, it is incorrect to address someone as "Dear Julia Gasper")."
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shey Cobley" <> To: "Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum" <> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 12:39 AM Subject: Re: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square > All, > > I have been asked by the Oxford City Council Planning dept to add the following information about Bonn Square: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Planning permission, Conservation Area consent and Listed Building consent was sought for the current scheme now in construction. The applications (06/00487/FUL, 06/00488/CAC and 06/00489/LBC) were submitted in March 2006. > The detailed application drawings prepared by Graeme Massie, the architect, for these three applications were careful design application drawings. There were prepared based on detailed site analysis and assessment of how the scheme would be constructed. > In taking the original architects concept forward from that which was submitted for the RIBA design completion to detailed application stage a more detailed assessment had to be made of the impact on the surface of the square, its angle of slope and side steps on the root systems of the existing trees. It is true that the intention of the architect at the time of the competition had been to try and retain one or two of the trees just on the New Inn Hall Street side of the square in the proposed grove of trees on this side of the square. However, for technical reasons this was not possible. > The formal applications submitted in March 2006 were clear in explaining that none of the existing trees were to be retained. > These applications were subject to the full public consultation including a site notice and an advertisement in the Oxford Times. There also was press coverage in the Oxford Times and Mail at this stage in the projects development. > > A comprehensive report was prepared by officers for the applications and submitted to the Central, South and West Area Committee for its consideration on 13th June 2006 . This enabled the detailed proposals for Bonn Square, which involved the replacement of all the existing trees with 7 new mature trees, to be considered in a public forum. This is a public meeting, its agenda is published for the public to see 5 working days in advance of the meeting and all who has written in to comment on the application were also sent a personal letter of invitation. At the area committee members of the public are able to address the elected Members. Three people addressed the committee, one of whom raised the matter or the provision of trees. The officer's report contains details of the public consultation and records that objections were received from the public to the loss of the trees. A copy of the full committee report is available on the Council web site. > > The issue of the loss of the existing trees was fully aired in both the officer report and in the committee debate at this meeting on 13th June. > It has been clear from this detailed application stage that it was not possible to retain any of the trees as the officer report sets out clearly. A whole page of the report is devoted to this issue. It explains that local plan policy indicates a presumption against the removing trees. It goes on to explain, however, how the proposed design includes lowering the existing ground levels from the rear (north) to improve physical access to the front and as a consequence it is not possible to retain any of the existing trees, due to the impact on their roots, and provide a reasonable degree of public safety. The report accepts that there is some conflict with policy, however it recommends to Members that the tree losses and new planting should be considered in the context of the overall design and wider benefits of the development. > The Members at the committee considered this matter carefully and while not all Members voted to support the applications the majority did. As a result planning permission was granted and the Conservation consent and Listed Building consent applications were forwarded to the Government Office for the South East with a recommendation that consents be granted. Such consents were subsequently received from the Government. > > With the grant of planning permission, conservation area consent and listed building consent the City Council followed out the full democratic process. > I trust I have been able to explain how the principle occasion when the public were invited to comment on the design for Bonn Square was in early 2006 when the formal planning, conservation area and listed building applications were submitted. This stage in the overall process clearly indicated that the existing trees would be lost and was subject to the full scrutiny of the democratic process. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks > > Shey Cobley > Oxford City Council > Info about Shey Cobley: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/sheycobley > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/14Gs4QBgAJsZho1X6oRqie > ----------------------------------------- > To post, send your message to: <email obscured> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," > in subject line and send to: <email obscured> > > More info about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
An interesting side issue to the Bonn Square affair is the attitude of the Oxford Preservation Trust. On its web site – http://www.oxfordpreservation.org.uk/ the OPT says it is ‘committed to creating a positive future for Oxford by encouraging thoughtful development and new design whilst protecting historic buildings and green open spaces’ and ‘is committed to ensuring a positive future for Oxford, preserving and enhancing the City's historic character and green setting’. One might be forgiven for thinking they would oppose the destruction of a public garden with interesting historical associations. But no, they actually gave £1,400 to Oxford City Council as a contribution to the Bonn Square scheme. So who are these people? A look at the list of trustees – http://www.oxfordpreservation.org.uk/about_trustees.php reveals that none other than Council Leader John Goddard is among them, along with other City Councillors. Also, interestingly, is Anne Spokes Symonds, who has been vocal in opposing the current Bonn Square work. I wonder what she thinks? I did write to the OPT asking why they made the contribution, but all their ‘planning officer’ would say was ‘…the Trust gave a grant of £1,400 to Oxford City Council for its scheme to revitalise Bonn Square in recognition of the Council's commitment to improvement to the public realm of the City.’ A rather unrevealing reply I would say. It would seem the OPT interpret ‘protecting green open spaces’ in a very idiosyncratic way. Or to put it more bluntly, in giving money to the Bonn Square scheme the OPT acted directly contrary to their own proclaimed aims. Anyone who thinks that the OPT can be relied upon to act to ‘preserve’ the city is likely to be disappointed. This is also an example of a wider phenomenon I have noticed, that of pressure groups not acting in the way one might reasonably think they would. Another case is BBOWT not opposing the destruction of Radley Lakes. I think the lesson is not to be too trustful of any pressure group – they may act in an unexpected way.
Absolutely right. I remember thirty years ago somebody telling me that the Council for the Preservation of Rural England and many similar groups were thoroughly infiltrated by developers and their cronies. Busy, well-meaning people give contributions to these organizations but never go to meetings or try to find out what has happened to their money. They are completely betrayed. I don't think most people are apathetic, just struggling with complicated lives. Working! Bringing up families! Three tiers of uncaring politicians to battle against - local, national, European. It's a heavy load. Any week they might be sneaking a horrendous plan through. And the corporations are devious and cynical.
> An interesting side issue to the Bonn Square affair is the attitude of the > Oxford Preservation Trust. On its web site – > > http://www.oxfordpreservation.org.uk/ > > the OPT says it is ‘committed to creating a positive future for Oxford by > encouraging thoughtful development and new design whilst protecting > historic buildings and green open spaces’ and ‘is committed to ensuring a > positive future for Oxford, preserving and enhancing the City's historic > character and green setting’. One might be forgiven for thinking they > would oppose the destruction of a public garden with interesting > historical associations. > > But no, they actually gave £1,400 to Oxford City Council as a contribution > to the Bonn Square scheme. So who are these people? A look at the list of > trustees – > > http://www.oxfordpreservation.org.uk/about_trustees.php > > reveals that none other than Council Leader John Goddard is among them, > along with other City Councillors. Also, interestingly, is Anne Spokes > Symonds, who has been vocal in opposing the current Bonn Square work. I > wonder what she thinks? > > I did write to the OPT asking why they made the contribution, but all > their ‘planning officer’ would say was ‘…the Trust gave a grant of £1,400 > to Oxford City Council for its scheme to revitalise Bonn Square in > recognition of the Council's commitment to improvement to the public realm > of the City.’ A rather unrevealing reply I would say. > > It would seem the OPT interpret ‘protecting green open spaces’ in a very > idiosyncratic way. Or to put it more bluntly, in giving money to the Bonn > Square scheme the OPT acted directly contrary to their own proclaimed > aims. Anyone who thinks that the OPT can be relied upon to act to > ‘preserve’ the city is likely to be disappointed. > > This is also an example of a wider phenomenon I have noticed, that of > pressure groups not acting in the way one might reasonably think they > would. Another case is BBOWT not opposing the destruction of Radley Lakes. > I think the lesson is not to be too trustful of any pressure group – they > may act in an unexpected way. > > Chris Brewer > > Info about Chris Brewer: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/chrisbrewer > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/FFEhBb2PV2Gg9ND0mD77i > ----------------------------------------- > To post, send your message to: <email obscured> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," > in subject line and send to: <email obscured> > > More info about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
FACTS AND FIGURES
On 17th October 2007, the Oxford Times announced that the City Council was
putting an extra £300,000 into the ghastly Bonn Square scheme, more than
doubling its previous budget of £230,000. There were comments from Bob Price
and other people.
However, on the 2nd January 2008 Michael Crofton-Briggs stated in a reply
to an enquiry by a member of this forum, that the City Council is only spending
£230,000 total. What happened to the extra £300,000? Are they spending it or
not? Who is correct here? Would somebody
like to elucidate the matter?
The apparent inconsistency puzzles me greatly.
See:-
From: CROFTON-BRIGGS Michael <email obscured>]
Sent: 02 January 2008 14:02
To: XXXXXXXXX
Subject: RE: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square
Dear Mr XXXXXXX
The total cost of the scheme including a later phase across Queen Street is
£1.9 million. The Government grant is £750,000 and the City Council is
contributing £230,000. Other grants are received or promised for £530,000.
There is a further £400K still to be raised to complete the Queen Street phase.
The trees are Robinia Pseudoaccacia.
I trust this information is of assistance.
Michael Crofton Briggs
Planning Services Business Manager
01865 252360
From the The Oxford Times http://www.oxfordmail.net
© Newsquest Media Group 2007
Bonn Square revamp moves closer
By Chris Buratta
Comment | Read Comments (1)
The £1.4m redevelopment of Oxford's Bonn Square could begin within weeks after
Oxford City Council agreed to inject a further £300,000 into the project.
The work, including landscaping, will affect Bonn Square, the Baptist Church
forecourt and part of New Inn Hall Street.
The council, which had already allocated £230,000 to the project, hopes to
recoup the extra money through grants and sponsorship.
But it needed to start work or risk losing £750,000 of Government funding,
which must be used before the end of the financial year next March.
A second phase of the scheme will take the total bill to £1.9m. Overall, there
is a £400,000 funding shortfall that the council must raise, including money to
repay the £300,000 to its own coffers.
Other contributors include Capital Shopping, the company redeveloping the
Westgate Shopping Centre, which will put in £500,000 once work starts on the
new centre, adjacent to the square.
Labour group leader Bob Price said he was worried that in injecting more
council money, there was a risk it would not be recovered.
4:15pm Wednesday 17th October 2007
The City Council tells us that they are not destroying Bonn Square, they are "regenerating" it. Yesterday evening I found myself in the vicinity (which I usually avoid since it has been turned into a stronghold). What I noticed was that there are still beggars and loiterers hanging around there, in fact I was approached by one woman who asked me for £2 while I stood at a bus stop! There was a pathetic-looking man hunting through the huge piles of litter that are strewn everywhere, searching for cigarette-stubs that were still smokeable. He found one amid the dented drink-cans, squashed tetra-packs, burger-boxes, half-eaten takeaway meals, plastic bags, paper coffee-cups, phone-cards, crumpled newspapers, broken glass and triangular sandwich-packs that adorn this now "Regenerated" area of our city. Then he sat on a shop doorstep to smoke it. But the trees are gone so it's well worth £1.5 million to make such a big difference! (Written on the day Vincent McGeown comes back into the fray. Good for you, Vince!)
The Telegraph had a very good article recently: "Town tree population 'in decline'" _http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1579140/Town-tree-population-%27in-dec line%27.html_ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1579140/Town-tree-population-'in-decline'.html) Perhaps this goes some way in explaining why the willows were cut down on Osney Island. Eric Murray
I am sorry the above link to the Telegraph does not work. Please go to: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1579140/Town-tree-population-%27in-decline%27.html
Eric
The Oxford Mail reported last Saturday that Bonn Square could soon have a giant television screen to keep us all entertained. Michael Crofton-Briggs is quoted: ‘It’s a very flexible space, that could be used for a big screen to show football games in a European Championship or World Cup’. I imagine he means something like the BBC Big Screens – http://www.bbc.co.uk/bigscreens/ I don’t recall a giant 1984 style telescreen being in the original ‘award-winning’ plans, but I suppose it will fit in well with all the shiny new CCTV cameras. Also in the report, it is mentioned that the Bonn Square scheme is, to the surprise of absolutely no-one, running over budget. The cost has risen to nearly £2 million, but according to Mr. Crofton-Briggs there will only be a ‘small cost implication’. Bob Price is also insouciant: ‘We’re confident there will be additional funding from the Government, because Oxford is one of its designated growth points’. So that’s alright then.
I will add this to our on-going complaint to the Ombudsman. One aspect of our collective complaint is that the plans shown to the public are nothing like the final result of the scheme which the council is implementing. So the "consultation" was a farce. The pictures shown on the Massie website misrepresented the true ugliness of the exposed surounding buildings, distorted the scale and did not include such things as thins giant TV screen. If anybody else still wants to add their names to the collective complaint please e-mail me providing your full name and address as these are a requirement.
Ooh, exciting, in my inbox I find this - 'Dear Chris, Welcome to the first Oxford West End Renaissance e-newsletter, keeping you up to date with the latest news and programme developments.' Reading on I see - 'Bonn Square - Oxford City Council's £1.9m redevelopment of Bonn Square is due for completion this autumn. The redesigned square will be a welcoming public space in which to relax amidst the frantic pace of city life. Exciting new features include bronze seating and landmark structural lighting, making the area safer and more inviting.' These people are psychic! Last time I was talking to my mum (in her eighties) she said 'What I hope and pray for are bronze seats in Bonn Square. They'll be just the place to rest my legs in winter'.
Freedom of Information request sent: http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/television_screen_in_bonn_square
Renaissance! Regeneration!!! Ha ha. The trouble is that we are up against people who honestly do seem to me to be - well, I would say completely barmy if it were not for the libel and slander laws. Recently somebody passed on to me a letter from Keith Mitchell, Leader of the County Council, (whose circulars provide glossy advertising for the Westgate disaster). He argues that the redevelopment of the Westgate centre was necessary because "I fear that the retail turnover of Oxford is something olike half that of Reading"!!!! What kind of reasoning is that? Is there a competition for which town sells the most cars or sofas? Why do we have to worry about having a lower or higher retail turnover than any other town? We may have fewer cats or more dogs than Reading too, but who cares? We've certainly got more libraries, and better art galleries, and there is no easy way to measure quality of life, which is something these sort of people really cannot begin to appreciate. He goes on to say in the same letter "I don't believe Oxford can simply stand still"...! No, of course, it's running at top speed up and down the A40 and hopping around like a morris dancer. His whole letter is completely bizarre. It sounds like a script for Monty Python.
Whilst thinking that the redevelopment of Bonn Square was unnecessary vandalism - I do wonder if Julie Gasper has not thought through the impact of her reasoning. Consider: a) If there is a lower retail turnover in Oxford and less shops, then the consequence is less business taxes paid, and less direct employment. In addition there is also less indirect employment as people who don't come into the centre go elsewhere. b) Less council tax means worse services and reduced employment in local government. c) There is more pressure for out of town developments with consequential negative impact. d) Possible environmental impact as people travel to what they perceive as "better shopping centres". e) Consequence of the above is, of course, we start to lose those existing services of which Julie is rightly proud. So, sorry, I disagree - Mr Mitchell is anything but barmy! Let's not abuse those who want to contribute to the local community - both via the City and County councils - not only does it put others off, and therefore worsen us all, but the way forward, when we believe people are wrong is to use reasoned argument. I'm looking forward to the counter-arguments!
No, I'm afraid I cannot agree with your reasoning, Paul. The fact is that Oxford has always been a "service" town selling knowledge and now it has a good income from tourists, which cannot be measured as part of its retail turnover. Invisible exports! Selling less hardware in the town centre does not matter, because people in Oxford are employed in different ways. There is no such things a "diect employment". People are employed or not, that is all. I doubt that people in Oxford drive elsewhere to do their shopping. It looks to me as if we have a high student population therefore they simply do not need to buy many retail items, as they are not at the right time of life to accumulate them. It is a complete fallacy to compare Oxford to Reading, where the employees of silicone valley go to buy their sofas or carpets. And I would be very surprised if the business rates support the libraries and museums I mentioned, which are part of Oxford University. I believe they have other sources of income. High business rates do not create a better quality of life.
Interesting comments - unfortunately I don't think that they bear close scrutiny. To take your various points in order: - Yes, we have a good income from Tourists - this is very dependant on exchange rate movements and also the world economic environment. The income provides a level of employment in shops, hotels, B & Bs etc. The challenge here is to make Oxford a more attractive place to visit longer - for example day trippers are very little use to us! - By direct employment I mean those people who work in shops and associated services in the City Centre. Given that overheads are rising (fuel being an obvious example) these shops have either to charge more, or increase turnover, in order to make/continue to make a profit. If they don't make a profit then they will shed staff and in extreme cases close. We already know that certain shops arriving in a City Centre boosts trade at others (examples include M & S and John Lewis). - Yes people do drive from Oxford to shop elsewhere - Milton Keynes and Reading being obvious destinations quoted by people interviewed in the Oxford Mail for example. In addition, of course, there are a lot of people who live in Oxford but work elsewhere who may shop where they work. The opposite is also true. The issue is not the absolute volume, but the trend exhibited - and there's no doubt that as other centres are perceived to be more attractive, more people will migrate there. Consider - if you live in say Didcot, and want a big ticket item - and you know a new store had just opened in Reading - where are you more likely to go? - Student population is, I believe 30,000. Total population of the City is around 150,000, and that excludes the catchment area around the city (such as the aforementioned Didcot). As such, except in specialist fields I doubt if students will be the major consideration. There is, in fact little difference in the levels of average income received by Oxford and Reading residents. - The public libraries are part of the County Council - funding comes from the Council Tax and also the Government precept. - Some of the museums are part of the University, but they rely on tax payers for expansion, and also appeals to local residents and businesses. Check the website for the Ashmolean Museum for example. Others, such as the Modern Art museum are not - and rely on the City Council and locals for funding. To recap - we are unfortunately in a consumer lead competitive environment, and unfortunately they will go where they perceive to be the most attractive areas to undertake their business - and with it will go other forms of employment over time. That is, regretably basic economics.
Ah, the devil is in the ‘retail’. The top three industries of Oxfordshire, according to the Oxfordshire Economic Observatory run by the two Oxford universities, are: higher education, publishing, and motor manufacturing, with tourism not far behind. None of these are retail activities. Basic (micro)economics dictates that one use one’s existing assets, know-how, and competitive edge rather than trying to be a new entrant in an already-crowded market. The suggestion that Oxford compete with the likes of Reading and Milton Keynes in retail is not very inspired: We are not going to do any better by selling wares made in developing countries, in chain-stores attended by local people paid barely above minimum wage, with most of the profits going back to headquarters in London or New York. Much better to have a knowledge-driven economy with people like strategic consultants, architects, artists, designers, engineers, academic editors, investigative journalists, etc. – what Oxfordshire has been good at for the last millennium. Lisbon Strategy anyone? It may well be barmy to take Oxford down the retail-centric road. Councillor Mitchell and friends need to prove that they are otherwise; the same applies to the Labour-run City Council. Yes, local people need shops, but not that many shops in a unique city like Oxford. If you really want retail desperately and want to win out on it, you need to sell mostly things others cannot sell; then you need to find a way to keep the profits local. Retail or not, businesses pay rates to the councils. (By the way, the VAT and other taxes go to the central Government and then gets redistributed, not directly to the councils; but that is another long story.) Following this line of thought, a sketch of what Westgate can become is: a department store (perhaps run by the John Lewis Partnership, or even better the Midcounties Co-operative); plus innovative local shops and restaurants (local! not chain-stores); with an artists’ village and a convention centre or theatre (maybe even with a resident orchestra, opera, or theatre company), capable of hosting largish conventions where new products, ideas, websites, cars, solar panels, government policies, can be launched;... plus some high-density residential units. All right, if I write any more, someone will have to pay consulting fee....
Kaihsu Tai mentions - '...investigative journalists, etc. – what Oxfordshire has been good at for the last millennium'. Investigative journalists? What? Where? We're not talking about the Oxford Mail here are we?
I can't afford Kaihsu's consulting fee, but I agree with a lot of what he is saying. Inb reply to Paul wilson, when I said libraries, I did not mean the public libraries which are woefully understocked and underfunded, having been systemat8call run down in the past twenty years. There is no likelihood at all that having bigger shops will increase spending on public libraries. It is a complete non-sequitur. The libraries I referred to are the university libraries which get nothing from the local council. The spending priorities of students do obviously differ from those of other groups, for many reasons starting with their age. It is an economic fallacy that selling knowledge is somehow a second class industry that depends on selling hardware for its existence, and which will benefit in any way from more hardware being sold. Reading's higher retail turnover does not make it into a cultural centre and tourists do not flock there. Reading university has never excelled Oxford just because somebody there buys more sofas. To expect it to do so is completely illogical. People who want to represent Oxford on the City or County councils should first of all be intelligent enough to understand the difference between Oxford and other cities, and to respect and value that difference. Vive la difference!
Re investigative journalists: No, not the rags; but to name three investigative journalists who are Oxfordshiremen: George Monbiot, Paul Kingsnorth, Oliver Tickell. Buy their books!
I read with interest the above posts and there's some interesting ideas there. By all means lets move towards a knowledge driven economy - indeed that needs to be the strategy for the whole country if we wish to survive - not just the City. Again, I agree, an attractive retail presence does not drive this strategy. However the following must be borne in mind: - In order to build the the type of economy you want - you must build the type of infrastructure necessary to support this economy - and make it attractive to people to visit and stay. Sorry, one of those components is an attractive retail environment. - Do not fall into the trap of thinking exclusively of Oxford city itself - the area of influence of the City extends way beyond the boundaries of the City. - I agree that there are differences between Oxford and Reading - but we also must not blind ourselves to the similarities. Bottom line - like all organisms we have to change to survive. I do like Kaishu's sketch of what the Westgate can become - that's very attractive. To do nothing, however, is a recipe for losing what we have got.
Even in recent years the idea that Oxford should leverage off its primary industries (auto, higher education and tourism) and grow its retail sector made a great deal of business sense. In a growth-based economy it is of paramount importance to ...well...grow. Growth in population fuels growth in consumption, which in turn fuels growth in business, which in turn fuels growth in capital assets, which fuels a growing tax base, which fuels growth in and improvement of vital government services. But this consumer-based lifestyle as we have known it, and its attending economy, is near an end now, and we must, as a community, understand this, plan for the future and move on. All that we rely upon for maintaining a viable growth economy, living a relatively abundant life (with respect to the rest of the world), and supporting a large population are based entirely upon cheap energy. Oil, natural gas and coal provide by far the largest component of energy for the transport and distribution industries, electrical power stations, pharmaceuticals, and agriculture. All of the significant advances in technology today in all these sectors, even the so-called alternative (a.k.a., 'green', 'sustainable', 'renewable', etc) energies, depends wholly upon fossil fuels. The current urban myth is that we have plentiful supplies. This is untrue, and the commodity markets are bearing full testimony to that as the price of energy is now on a continuing slope upward, as is of course all those commodities which depend so heavily upon them - electricity, transport, chemicals and agriculture (food). This is not simply a part of the normal business cycle. Things will not get better. Things will never get better. This is permanent. All cheap sources of energy have been exhausted. We are now beginning to rely upon the harder to get at, the deeper (in the seas, under the ground) and the less energy dense sources. This is why energy prices are increasing, and will never again return to their previous values. And THIS is why life will never again be the same. This has enormous implications for Oxford, indeed all of Britain. Capital projects we start now must be planned for with this in mind. All such projects will of necessity have to contend with severely rising costs into the foreseeable future. The general economy, not just of Oxford, but the entire UK, will begin a downward slide that will not be capable of restoration because there will exist no source of cheap energy (and therefore, cheap capital and cheap labour) to save the day in the end. The retail sector, as will the tourist sector, suffer the most quickest in this scenario. Investing in retail projects will not only be unwise, but thoroughly unprofitable at this juncture. We ignore the signs of the times at our risk. Today we have a choice. Tomorrow we have significantly less choice. The day after tomorrow we have none. We can begin today to plan for the worst tomorrow, or we can continue on our idyllic plan to overcome Reading in a dying industry. We can use our existing (but not permanent) tax funds for improving our chances to survive as a community tomorrow. Or we can use them to fund one more disaster after another until we lose all funds. The old paradigm is finished. We must educate ourselves in what is really happening today. We must develop an understanding from that. Then we must act. The consumption-based economy is, as they say, now a 'dead man walking'. We must face that prospect with courage and resolve to overcome. There are things we can do today to help which will be much more difficult tomorrow as prices continue to rise and ultimately the tax base deteriorates. The choice is ours today. But choose, we must. Or tomorrow choice is diminished greatly. VW > To: <email obscured> > From: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square > Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 02:54:02 +1200 > > I read with interest the above posts and there's some interesting ideas there. By all means lets move towards a knowledge driven economy - indeed that needs to be the strategy for the whole country if we wish to survive - not just the City. Again, I agree, an attractive retail presence does not drive this strategy. > > However the following must be borne in mind: > > - In order to build the the type of economy you want - you must build the type of infrastructure necessary to support this economy - and make it attractive to people to visit and stay. Sorry, one of those components is an attractive retail environment. > > - Do not fall into the trap of thinking exclusively of Oxford city itself - the area of influence of the City extends way beyond the boundaries of the City. > > - I agree that there are differences between Oxford and Reading - but we also must not blind ourselves to the similarities. > > Bottom line - like all organisms we have to change to survive. I do like Kaishu's sketch of what the Westgate can become - that's very attractive. To do nothing, however, is a recipe for losing what we have got. > > > Paul Wilson > > Info about Paul Wilson: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/paulcwilson > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1Q29PMEqNOrVHh2kzUAGp4
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Victor is quite correct in defining some over-arching issues which will mean in due course that the growth economy will end - earlier comments by myself were based upon the local scenario in which we find ourselves - and it requires political will at a higher level than local councils to drive this forward. My major concern, however, is still why politicians and others are always focused on addressing the symptoms (lack of cheap energy, global warming etc) - rather than the elephant in the room - the root cause. The population of this planet is steadily increasing - and there are finite resources - not only in terms of fuel, but also far more importantly, food and the ability to produce this (as will be evidenced by the recent escalating cost of food in this country - and food riots elsewhere). There's little point us focusing in the long term on any of the actions detailed by Victor above if we continue to increase our global population. In the longer term there must action to halt the increase - and then reduce the overall planetary population otherwise the failure to generate enough food, will mean pain, misery and a forced reduction in numbers and in life expectancy, for all except for a privileged few (want to bet they will be politicians?). Chris Brewer kindly pointed me to this website in an earlier posting http://www.optimumpopulation.org/ It makes very interesting/worrying reading.
(I drafted this response offline earlier, but now seem to be pleasantly preempted.) Paul said: "Do not fall into the trap of thinking exclusively of Oxford city itself - the area of influence of the City extends way beyond the boundaries of the City." It is on no one's radar (until recently), but the elephant in the room (in this case, the County Council chamber) is agriculture. The pressing issue in front of our minds should not have been retail, but agriculture in this shire. Come back to this forum in 10 years and let me know if I am right. What a tour d'horizon this thread has been! From Bonn Square to rural Oxonia. Are we still in Central, South, and West? (Perhaps we should look at Transition Town Oxford? Or even Transition Shire Oxonia?)
Paul, you have hit the problem dead-on. Overpopulation. This has serious and compelling ecological implications for all of us, which are now beginning to bubble visibly to the surface. You are right, we can't really deal with overpopulation at the local level, though you are also right, that we must deal with it. My understanding of human nature demands, however, that we as a global society have not, nor will we , deal with it as it has vast personal and economic ramifications that our leaders are not ready to face - primarily because we, their constituents, are not ready to face them. Unfortunately, if we don't face them rationally and with purpose, we will likely be overwhelmed by them. So that leaves us with the necessity of dealing with the reality of the approaching future - the symptoms, as you rightly pointed out. What happens as commodities become too expensive, and even scarce? What happens when the transport and distribution system begins to suffer? How will that affect the larger economy, and therefore, how will it affect our local economy? There exists no doubt in my mind that Oxford, like all other local governments, will be faced with severe and increasing inflationary pressures deriving from significantly increased energy costs which are, in today's world, the basis of all other derived costs. As a community, we can either choose to react when events overcome us, or we can begin proactively planning now to deliver the services necessary to allow a gradual transition of our economy to a more localised basis by encouraging local business based upon local craftmanship, local food production, training in permaculture methods and many other local crafts, enabling and assisting people to grow food on public greens, etc. We should be encouraging local business sponsorship of these things as well as local government sponsorship. By the way, may I recommend a book to you as well as anyone else reading this, a classic addressing the ecological implications of population overshoot, published originally in 1982? Overshoot, The Ecological Basis of Revolutionary Change William R. Patton, Jr. What you will find is a rather full explanation of why we are where we are in today's world, presented from an ecological perspective. I would also recommend the book, Collapse, by Jared Diamond (2005), for an explanation of the human behavioural characteristics we share that lead us to the decisions we make that determine success or failure as a civilisation. Set in the context of an artificially extended carrying capacity as presented by Catton, perhaps you can see why I have taken the somewhat extreme position I have regarding the approaching future and why Oxford truly needs to prepare.
Regards Victor > To: <email obscured> > From: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square > Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 09:06:03 +1200 > > Victor is quite correct in defining some over-arching issues which will mean in due course that the growth economy will end - earlier comments by myself were based upon the local scenario in which we find ourselves - and it requires political will at a higher level than local councils to drive this forward. > > My major concern, however, is still why politicians and others are always focused on addressing the symptoms (lack of cheap energy, global warming etc) - rather than the elephant in the room - the root cause. > > The population of this planet is steadily increasing - and there are finite > resources - not only in terms of fuel, but also far more importantly, food and the > ability to produce this (as will be evidenced by the recent escalating cost of > food in this country - and food riots elsewhere). > > There's little point us focusing in the long term on any of the actions detailed by Victor above if we continue to increase our global population. In the longer term there must action to halt the increase - and then reduce the overall planetary population otherwise the failure to generate enough food, will mean pain, misery and a forced reduction in numbers and in life expectancy, for all except for a privileged few (want to bet they will be politicians?). > > Chris Brewer kindly pointed me to this website in an earlier posting http://www.optimumpopulation.org/ It makes very interesting/worrying reading. > > > Paul Wilson > > Info about Paul Wilson: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/paulcwilson > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/XkeNqNJzwXrXttB2Vm21O > ----------------------------------------- > To post, send your message to: <email obscured> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," > in subject line and send to: <email obscured> > > More info about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
Apologies. I hit the wrong Repl button on this one... Kaishu said: "The pressing issue in front of our minds should not have been retail, but agriculture in this shire." So very true. After my rather wordy response, this says it all in a nutshell. Let's begin to think agriculture, not retail. Victor > To: <email obscured> > From: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square > Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 23:30:04 +1200 > > (I drafted this response offline earlier, but now seem to be pleasantly preempted.) > > Paul said: "Do not fall into the trap of thinking exclusively of Oxford city itself - the area of influence of the City extends way beyond the boundaries of the City." It is on no one's radar (until recently), but the elephant in the room (in this case, the County Council chamber) is agriculture. The pressing issue in front of our minds should not have been retail, but agriculture in this shire. Come back to this forum in 10 years and let me know if I am right. > > What a tour d'horizon this thread has been! From Bonn Square to rural Oxonia. Are we still in Central, South, and West? > > (Perhaps we should look at Transition Town Oxford? Or even Transition Shire Oxonia?) > > > Kaihsu Tai > Jericho, Oxford > Info about Kaihsu Tai: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/kaihsutai > > This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4PcWb76X6OySMROc1QtEF5
> ----------------------------------------- > To post, send your message to: <email obscured> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," > in subject line and send to: <email obscured> > > More info about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
I agree that the retail future looks bad. There have been plenty of warnings
about this and signs over the past few years - particularly when the USA
economy dived. It was negligent and amateurish for the planners in Oxford to
ignore those signs and try to impose a vast new shopping complex on us.
This is meant to be a local issues forum and the pressing concern is HOW
we can now avoid having a giant TV screen placed in Bonn Square, together with
sloping paving stones, flag-poles, concrete wedges for benches and a dozen CCTV
cameras - not to mention a straight line of weedy little pseudo-trees, which
fail to disguise the visual incoherence of the surrounding buildings. Our joint
letter of protest to the Local Government Ombudsman is still being considered,
and I will report back when the case gets any further. Until then people could
still sign my online petition
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/sackoxfordsplanningofficer/
This is not a link, it is an address which has to be copied into your browser's
address-bar to go to the page.
Has anyone got any more constructive ideas, relating to this precise objective?
With reference to the online petition about Bonn Square. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/sackoxfordsplanningofficer/ I fear there may be a scam operating parasitically. Somebody has told me that when she signed the petition a window popped up and asked her if she wished to make a donation. She did so. It was me who set up the petition and I cetainly never requested any money! I would not dream of doing so. I have re-visited the site and there seems to be no link for the sponsor to receive money, so I cannot refund it. I will have to warn the company which provided the website. I am very sorry about this but could not anticipate it. Some people have commented that the link does not work. I gather that it works as a link if you get the message in HTML.
On Sat. 2 Aug. (via Victor Wood on 3 Aug) Kaihsu Tai wrote: > (Perhaps we should look at Transition Town Oxford? Or even Transition Shire Oxonia?)
----------- See www.transitionoxford.org.uk
I do not understand the message above. However, I would like to take up Paul's point about an "attractive retail environment". It's not just that this phrase betrays a crass world-view "I shop therefore I am" - the attitude that led our city councillors to disapprove of so called vagrants in Bonn Square, i.e. people who were failing to justify their existence by spending money. What IS an attractive retail environment? The sort of wilderness that has been created at Aylesbury and other similar medium-sized towns? Certainly not. Bigger and bigger mega-stores dominating cities and requiring vast adjacent car-parks are not attractive and the idea that they will attract the sort of people who can operate a knowledge-based economy is not at all convincing. An attractive retail environment means shops that are well-varied, accessible on foot or and staffed by knowledgeable people. It must include little boutiques, local personally-run businesses like Japlene in Headington and of course open markets. Little Clarendon Street used to be an attractive environment until it was taken over by cafés and restaurants. Some of my favourite shops in Oxford are the oldest, such as Gill's Ironmongers in the High Street, or Smith and Low in Hollow Way. The new Debenhams is awful and I can say that personally I have never bought one single item there. Don't forget that much of today's shopping happens by post or on the internet. If people want a sofa, as often as not, they search for it on line and then order it from Ikea in Bath or somewhere. They could be making large purchases from the north of England or abroad - that is the modern world. So to try to calculate the happiness of people here in one town according to the retsail turnover, is, even in materialistic terms, very naive and fallacious. Finally, making Bonn Square into what looks like a prison exercise yard with a giant TV screen in it, does not contribute to making Oxford a more "attractive environment", retail or otherwise.
Post Script. John Lewis's has such a good internet shopping website now, that anyone who wants to buy stuff from them can get it online, delivered to their door. One more bit of proof that we don't need a massive new department store in this town, or a re-built area of Oxford named after London's scruffy, noisy and depressing "West End". Altogether the notion of an "attractive retail environment" is outdated and unrealistic.
Julia, I don't appreciate abuse - "betrays a crass world-view" - let's please use this column for rational debate. In the circumstances there seem little point me contributing further.
Another footnote, this time concerning Forest of Oxford (FOX). Who are they? They first came to my notice by producing the excellent ‘Trees of Oxford’s Historic Centre’ leaflet, which included various walks with informative notes about the trees to be seen. The leaflet stated, ‘We are campaigning for more trees in the city centre’. Four years ago their page (now long removed) on the City Council web site told us ‘… Forest of Oxford encourages and enables all sections of the community to enhance the environment throughout the City of Oxford by undertaking tree management and planting’. The ‘City Trail’ in their leaflet quite explicitly noted the Bonn Square trees, mentioning the trees of heaven, lime and sycamore, and there was a nice spring time photo of the trees coming into leaf. So FOX would have been keen defenders of the Bonn Square trees then? In fact not at all – a letter from FOX told me ‘We were in favour of felling the sycamores in Bonn Square, because we felt that they compromised the full potential for the successful development of the space.’ Note no mention of the lime or trees of heaven, but the minutes of the FOX meeting of January 31st 2008 confirmed they supported the Bonn Square scheme in its entirety. So just like the Oxford Preservation Trust, a case of a group not acting as they might reasonably have been expected to. But, also like the OPT, a glance at the membership gives a clue – Susanna Pressel, Jean Fooks and Dee Sinclair, members of the political groups who whole heartedly supported the destruction of the Bonn Square garden, are all FOX members. Meanwhile, in mid-August, a glance through the blue fencing reveals work is still far from finished. I wonder what the final cost will be?
A month later, we now know: "The television screen idea was just quoted as an example of how the new Bonn Square may be used in the future. There are no plans at present to install a screen there." http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/television_screen_in_bonn_square#incoming-3519
The complaint jointly submitted by a group of us to the Local Government Ombudsman has now reached the second stage. (The first stage consists of sending it to the City Council and inviting them to defend themselves, then asking us if we are satisfied with that reply). We are pursuing the complaint, which is now being consdiered by an investigator on behalf of the LGO. The crux of our complaint is, of course, that the City Council changed its plans radically between the consultation and the felling of the trees. This means that they never got public consent for felling them. They put misleading statements and pictures on websites, which did not indicate their intention to cut down most or all of the trees. They also ignored a petition signed by three thousand people, which was presented in court. Anybody who still wishes to add their name to the joint complaint is welcome to see the correspondence and to add their name now. By the way, I hope that somebody is hanging on to that original petition as it would be very useful to be able to show it to the LGO or their representative. I believe that Dennis Hambridge knew where it was at one time - please , if anyone knows now, can they get in touch? I have no doubt that organisations such as FOX are completely phoney, well-infiltrated by the concrete brigade, who are so fond of saying that "trees need to be managed" which of course means cutting them all down.
This forum needs a lot more people to take part in it. I suggest that every member e-mails the web-page's address to at least two other people living locally, in the hope that they will find time to partake and contribute to the discussion. What I see in Oxford is a lot of woeful apathy. If we want to get democracy back we need to change that. Of course we need to be civil and polite. It is clear that some members are inclined to overstate their opinions. But Paul Wilson (who, like many people, does not quite understand the meaning of the word "appreciate") is going a bit far to complain of "abuse". Abuse has to be addressed to an individual and would consist of calling them, for instance, "scum", "slag" or "smeghead", or such terms that we hear every day on TV. What I would like to see is a wider range of contributors putting their point of view. Where are all those three thousand people who signed this petition?
Our complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman has now reached the third stage - that of being considered by an assistant who has decided that the case is not worth pursuing because it does not involve significant "injustice" to members of the public. We are told that we can still use the square, so that's fine. Rather like shooting someone's beloved Labrador dog and telling them they can now have a horrid little pekinese puppy instead. Great. We have a chance to appeal against this and assert that it does constitute injustice, because of the less than candid way that the council carried out planning procedures. I will of course be doing so, as unless we do the case will get as high as the Ombudsman. I imagine that all cases go through this barrier and only the persistent ones get to the Ombudsman's attention. Please will all those who still support the complaint get in touch and add something personal to the next stage of this correspondence. There is no saying of course that we will succeed, but it is worth using every tool at our disposal.
PS The extreme ugliness and invasiveness of the hoardings surrounding the site are part of the ongoing complaint, together with the fact that the council is using these hoardings to propagandize its scheme. It is severely undemocratic to use public money for propaganda, to promote a particular policy to which many tax-payers are strongly opposed. That is a serious ethical issue.
After six months of protracted correspondence, our collective complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman has now reached what appears to be the final stage. The LGO, J. R.White, has decided that he is simply not going to investigate the complaint at all, because he recognizes that we think the City Council acted undemocratically, he does not consider that this constitutes a "significant personal injustice". He also says that I live too far away from Bonn Square for it to "have materially affected" me. He apparently believes that one's concern about the environment should be limited to a radius of about a mile from wherever one happens to live. So after all those months of patiently striving to have our complaint heard, it has been considered for about five minutes and then dismissed without investigation. Can anyone really say that they are surprised? The other people who co-signed the complaint are of course welcome to see the letter, which arrived here by post this morning. It reminds us that the Audit Commission exists for complaints about City Councils misusing public money, and we still have the option of putting a further complaint to that commission. If anybody is willing to put their signature to such a complaint, please contact me.
You lucky people, here are some snaps taken today - http://www.flickr.com/photos/23405400@N03/sets/72157610615173468/ Also, I'll upload a general view taken from BHS.
The following file was added to this topic:
Er, yes, well, if Desolation Square is too long a name, how about Bleak Square? The scrawny sticks of "trees" are the final insult. Going back to the issue of whether Oxford has, or needs, an "attractive retail environment". Since the centre of Oxford is now so over-burdened with takeaways and cafés, we have lost many valuable medium-sized shops that used to exist. For instance, the City Council had no hesitation in permitting the premising of the flourishing Russell Acott music shop to be turned into our fortieth or fiftieth wine-bar. There is no doubt at all that the public wanted that shop and there was a need for it. But without compunction, the city council granted an alcohol license and so we lost that valuable asset. That was bad planning, and bad planning is then used to justify further bad planning, by saying that we lack shops! Instead of listening to what the residents want, the council is telling us that we need a huge John Lewis's. Now there is a major world recession the plan is quite crazy. It is just sad that the central Oxford premises where Shakespeare once stayed are now used as a Macdonald's burger-joint. The amount of rubbish piled high on the pavements late each evening is absolutely terrifying.
There have been a lot of comments about Bonn Square and how much people don't like it or how it was financed. I would prefer to see these under this topic rather than as a recurring theme throughout other topics. I like it. It looks tidy and provides some much needed public seating in the city centre. Anything that maintains a public open space in Oxford is good in my books. I don't know the history or politics but the source of funding for Bonn Square seems contentious. There's some nasty negativity (maybe politics) going on on this forum and it's not constructive to keep using Bonn Square as a punch below the belt.
Kate – I agree that comments about Bonn Square are best recorded on this thread. However, the reason this issue crops up elsewhere is because the whole Bonn Square affair does seem emblematic of the way Oxford is governed – flawed consultation, money spent rashly, no account taken of public protest and a total disregard for local history and the environment. You like the new Bonn Square – you prefer a bare stone surface with a few seats and rubbish bins to a green space with mature trees. However, a lot of us feel differently. It is quite wrong to call mentioning Bonn Square ‘a punch below the belt’.
May I just correct Kate on two points of information. She says that Bonn/Bleak
square now looks tidy. There are plenty of pictures of the old Bonn Square
still available on, for instance, Google maps satellite imaging, which show
that there was nothing at all untidy about it. It was a pleasant green oasis
that screened off the surrounding buildings, which are badly matched in shape
and style.
Secondly, she says that it now provides seating. There was no shortage of
seating before on the low walls and on the steps of the War Memorial. All these
pleasant places to sit have been replaced with steel girders that get no shade
from the sun or shelter from the rain. The overhead lighting is glaring and
offensive, like searchlights. So they are very bad places to sit. Moreover, the
sloping pavement there now is clearly designed to deter people from using it
for any purpose.
If you don't know the background, Kate, I suggest you find out before
commenting.
Julia's last comment is out of order. Kate should be allowed to comment as much as she likes. The Palestine demo seemed to work quite well, and I particularly liked the way the balloon stall was removed from St Ebbe's St. I think the space would work better if there was a small stage at the bottom of the ramp for such events.
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: Julia Gasper <email obscured>]
Sent: 20 January 2009 10:17
To: Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum
Subject: Re: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square
May I just correct Kate on two points of information. She says that
Bonn/Bleak square now looks tidy. There are plenty of pictures of the
old Bonn Square still available on, for instance, Google maps satellite
imaging, which show that there was nothing at all untidy about it. It
was a pleasant green oasis that screened off the surrounding buildings,
which are badly matched in shape and style.
Secondly, she says that it now provides seating. There was no shortage
of seating before on the low walls and on the steps of the War Memorial.
All these pleasant places to sit have been replaced with steel girders
that get no shade from the sun or shelter from the rain. The overhead
lighting is glaring and offensive, like searchlights. So they are very
bad places to sit. Moreover, the sloping pavement there now is clearly
designed to deter people from using it for any purpose.
If you don't know the background, Kate, I suggest you find out
before commenting.
Julia Gasper
Headington Quarry, Oxford England
Info about Julia Gasper: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/juliagasper
This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7mHJL9FikfXgWbNJBsOHBT
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I think Kate made a very good point about negative posting, well done. I can't subscribe to the view that Bonn Square was a pleasant green oasis in recent years. It might have looked ok from a distance but up close it was really grim and not a place you would want to sit with children - it had become a smelly latrine for street drinkers and others. I'm happy to give the new square a chance and see what it looks like when the trees come into leaf and in the meantime I'm pleased to see so many people taking advantage of a clean and safe place to sit. Keep posting Kate!
I think Richard has misrepresented what I said. Kate had already admitted that she was not well-informed about the background of what she was saying. All I suggested was that she should try to remedy that. Does Richard think that ill-informed opinions are better than well-informed ones? I wonder how long Kate has been in the city. I have lived here nearly thirty years now and I think it is for the moderators, not Mr Richard, to decide when things are "out of order".
Dear All, I've never posted on this list before but feel increasingly frustrated about a certain persons disregard for any views that don't echo fully her own. Mr Richard Mann wrote (Sept 10th): 'I would suggest that the basic rule required of participants in the forum is that they don't write assuming that everyone agrees with them. Indeed that the purpose of a forum is to express views in an open manner that leaves scope for other people to express a divergent view that might change yours.' Richard I could not agree with you more. Julia Gasper questions whether Richard thinks that 'ill-informed opinions are better that well-informed ones'. May I quote from Julia Gaspers extensive posting on this forum and leave it up to others to decide who has the ill informed opinions. All these are direct quotations from Ms Gasper: Jan 19th 2009: 'excellent street design = girls in short skirts' Jan 19th 2009: Bonn Square is described as 'a piece of hideous fascist architecture' Jan 7th 2009: 'People have pedestrian shopping malls if they want to get away from traffic' Dec 24th 2008: 'While I hate smoking myself, (especially close to where I am eating) we have to face the fact that most of our pubs will be gone in the next few years, and gone forever' Nov 21st 2008: 'Maybe it is time that some enraged citizens stormed the PO like the Bastille,reclaimed it and announced that this time we were going to decide whether we can collect our own parcels from there or not.' There are so many more examples of other 'facts' and 'well-informed opinions' from Ms Gasper but I have better things to do than find more. As a representative of the Student Union in Oxford (our offices are across Bonn Square) of course the length of time the work took on Bonn Square was incredibly infuriating however I for one now feel safer walking across the square and the infuriation of waiting for the completion of the square pales in comparison to having to read Ms Gasper's often offensive rants each day on the forum. Best wishes, Jack Wellby Vice President Oxford University Student Union Thomas Hull House New Inn Hall Street Oxford. OX1 2DH 2009/1/20 Julia Gasper <email obscured>>
> I think Richard has misrepresented what I said. > Kate had already admitted that she was not well-informed about the > background of what she was saying. All I suggested was that she should try > to remedy that. > Does Richard think that ill-informed opinions are better than well-informed > ones? > I wonder how long Kate has been in the city. I have lived here nearly > thirty years now and I think it is for the moderators, not Mr Richard, to > decide when things are "out of order". > > > Julia Gasper > Headington Quarry, Oxford England > Info about Julia Gasper: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/juliagasper > > View all messages on this topic at: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3FK9Odi8vBsne9eUsGoINM > ----------------------------------------- > To post, e-mail: <email obscured> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," > in subject, then send to: <email obscured> > > More information about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood > Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net > -- ======================================== Jack Wellby Vice President (Charities and Community) Oxford University Student Union Thomas Hull House New Inn Hall Street Oxford. OX1 2DH Tel. 01865 288465 www.oxfordrag.co.uk www.ousu.org
All opinions are valid. It's normal English behaviour to state opinions diffidently, to allow for a degree of contradiction without making a fight out of it. This diffidence (or lack of it) allows the reader to understand the extent to which the opinion is based on knowledge and/or assessment of contradictory opinions. Richard Arriva plc Registered in England. Registered no: 347103. Registered Office: 1 Admiral Way, Doxford International Business Park, Sunderland, SR3 3XP. The contents of this e-mail are confidential and may be privileged and protected by law and are intended solely for the use of the person to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this message please notify the sender immediately, disclosure of its content to any other person is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please note that any views expressed in this e-mail may be those of the originator and do not necessarily reflect those of this organisation. Copyright in this e-mail and attachment(s) belongs to Arriva plc. Internet e-mail is not a secure communications medium. Please note this lack of security when responding by e-mail. Accordingly, we give no warranties or assurances about the safety and content of this e-mail and its attachments. Neither Arriva plc nor the sender accepts any responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments. Any liability arising from any third party acting on any information contained in this e-mail is hereby excluded.
Jack Wellby seems to have uncreased the muddle started by Mr Richard by quoting
something from my glossary to the Pedestrain zone scheme which he has
completely misunderstood !
Jan 19th 2009: 'excellent street design = girls in short skirts' This ws not my
"opinion" but a reference to the cheap sexist advertising tactics used in the
County Council's presentation of its pedestrian zone scheme. It seems to be
Jack who is not well-informed as he has not gone and looked at the
presentation, which is fgull of pictures of girls in short skirts. Several
messages on the Headington Forum from people who HAVE looked at the
presentation make it clear that they agree with me. So it is Jack who is
ill-informed here.
Jan 19th 2009: Bonn Square is described as 'a piece of hideous fascist
architecture' - of course, Nothing ill-informed about that.
Jan 7th 2009: 'People have pedestrian shopping malls if they want to get away
from traffic' - yes, quite correct, They have the Covered Market, and several
other shopping malls in Oxford not including the one in Cowley. Until recently,
we had the Westgate Centre and if you were well-informed you would know it was
the City Council who closed that.
Dec 24th 2008: 'While I hate smoking myself, (especially close to where I am
eating) we have to face the fact that most of our pubs will be gone in the next
few years, and gone forever' - yes, actually, they are closing at a rate of
several per week all over the country. Get yourself informed, Jackl!
Nov 21st 2008: 'Maybe it is time that some enraged citizens stormed the PO like
the Bastille, reclaimed it and announced that this time we were going to decide
whether we can collect our own parcels from there or not.' You seem to have no
sense of humour!
Jack makes a very big point of the fact that he is a university student. Well,
Jack, it is many years now since I got a doctorate from the university where
you are still an undergraduate. I have also published several academic books.So
I have proved my ability to substantiate facts but I think you have got a long
way before you prove the same thing!
Long live the WELL-informed.
-Dr Julia Gasper.
ulia - the presentation by the county council, which I have looked at as part of my job, does use the tactic of attempting to present a (supposedly) idealised image of the pedestrian zone and they clearly were sexist in their presentations. This does not, I'm afraid, warrant the leap to the frivolous argument that excellent street design in any way equals 'girls in short skirts' and posting comments like this can be very misleading. I guess the fascist architecture is then a matter of opinion however I don't think the Gruppo 7 group thought up Bonn Square when they were working in the 1920s. Arguing that people have pedestrian shopping malls so they can escape the traffic is ridiculous. I have yet to dive into the Clarendon centre to avoid a speeding car. Yes Oxford has a good provision of shops in centres but they are by no means comprehensive. Although you are quite correct that many pubs have faced closure recently the factual inaccuracy in your statement was that 'the fact that most of our pubs will be gone in the next few years'. No. Some pubs will face closure but most of our pubs will still be here housing the 1.92 million unemployed (oh wait...he does have a sense of humour) :-) 'Jack makes a very big point of the fact that he is a university student. Well, Jack, it is many years now since I got a doctorate from the university where you are still an undergraduate.' I am not a university student. I work for the Oxford University Student Union (OUSU) in a sabbatical role after I graduated last year (hence not an undergraduate but a member of university staff). Check your facts before patronising others - especially when making quips about them being ill-informed! Rather weakens your position I think...
I agree with Kate, I think the new look is ok, and once the trees have grown a bit it will be quite pleasant. The previous Bonn Square was dirty and an eye sore, and the old tree wasn't a particulalry attractive one anyway. I quite like the tall lights ..looks a bit Soviet, and I enjoy the view of the mismatched buildings exposed behind..adds charm I feel. I've never commented on this forum before, but Julia's comments are beginning to get to me! I don't think they are a majority view. I sometimes wonder how some people have the time to comment on the forum in such depth and regularity anyway! Jane Sherwood
I have been motivated to submit my first posting by the tone of Dr Gasper's contributions to this topic. I hope I am qualified to do so having lived in Oxford for 53 years but unfortunately I don't have a Doctorate. However I have always felt that the 'town' is entitled to a view as much as the 'gown'. Whether or not the redevelopment of Bonn Square represents an improvement, on what was there previously, is a subjective judgement based on opinion and not absolute fact. In my humble opinion, the area has improved. The buildings that have been opened up provide an attractive feature, there is improved lighting and seating, more trees have been planted than were previously there and overall it is a better facility for Oxford. This is my opinion, it is not an absolute fact and hope it can be considered in that context, even by Dr Gasper.
As Tim Sparrowhawk rightly observes, whether what we have now at Bonn Square is an improvement is a subjective opinion, and I certainly respect the opinions of others. Perhaps, as I opened this thread in what seems a lifetime ago, I could give mine? But first, a point of historical context. The space that since 1974 has been known as Bonn Square was for many years a well maintained, and much enjoyed, public garden. My mother used to rest there after shopping in town, with me in the pram. It featured a variety of mature trees, lawns, flowerbeds, a handful of old gravestones, and as its centrepiece, the Tirah Memorial. It is only in recent years that the garden was allowed to decline and become shabby. Let’s make this clear - the City Council quite deliberately neglected Bonn Square. Unswept cigarette ends littered the ground, the flower gardens were abandoned, the grass allowed to wither and die. To compare Bonn Square as it is now with what it what was immediately before re-development started, without considering what it once was and could have been again, is to ignore this important point. If the desire had been there, we could still have a beautiful green space today. But, and this must be said, there was little popular support for the old garden. When local historian Malcolm Graham wrote to the local press about the proposed re-development in February 2007 – http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/search/1198045.Bonn_Square_needs_looking_after/ - it certainly did not spark a chorus of protest. That only came in January 2008, when the trees were being chopped down, with a 3,000 name petition. But what of Bonn Square today? To accentuate the positive – the area certainly does provide a good place for popular demonstrations, and the high powered lighting does open up the area for night time skateboarding. Ah yes, those giant lamp posts. Jane Sherwood thinks they look ‘a bit Soviet’. I must admit I first thought of Albert Speer when I saw them. Perhaps totalitarian would be the best word. They certainly fit in well with the crude brutalism of the Primark building. There are also some rubbish bins, who lost their lids after a week, and a scattering of backless seats, which certainly admit no concession to comfort. And that’s about it – the promised (or threatened?) ‘arts totem’ failed to appear. Perhaps the money ran out… Set against this, we have the irredeemable loss of the sycamores, the lime, the Irish yews and the trees of heaven. None of us will see trees of their size and beauty and variety at this spot in our lifetimes again. We have lost all greenery at eye level. We have lost the gravestones which provided an interesting historic link with the long demolished church of St. Peter le Bailey. Extraordinarily, we even seem to have lost the attractive stone commemorating the naming of Bonn Square in 1974. All that is left is the Tirah Memorial, still looking tatty and defaced. Indeed, already the whole space is starting to look dirty and worn. In many ways we get in this city what we deserve. Very low turn outs in local elections reflect the apathy of many. The Labour and Liberal Democrat parties ritually squabble at election time, but in fact tend to agree on most issues, and both supported the Bonn Square scheme. Only the Green Party on the City Council, to their everlasting credit, opposed the development. Nothing I have seen at Bonn Square has caused me to alter my view that the development was environmental and historical vandalism. The loss of even a small piece of the very little publicly accessible green space in the very centre of Oxford is significant. But it was just one battle in the longer war to protect Oxford from those who would cover it in concrete and stone. There will be others. Just my opinion…
I would like to add something factual to Chris's account. Green councillors were not the only ones who opposed the Labour City council's plans for changing Bonn Square and the Westgate. My own City Councillor, Dr Tia Macgregor, who was at that time a Liberal, told me that she voted against it. The plans were only passed by a very small margin and there were many city councillors who complained that unfair tactics had been used to get them passed e.g. presenting the plans at short notice at meetings with a depleted number of councillors present. I have kept a file of various letters to the local newspapers over the past three years opposing the changes and complaining about them. There were many, and I know a lot of other people in the town who agreed but were simply too busy to write in. Later letters commented on the fact that the finished square has so little resemblance to the pictures and skethes provided at the time when the plan was approved. Is that also "Soviet" ?!!! Julia was writing about the County Council's future plans for further pedestrianisation when other members attacked her in a personal and malicious way that detracted, I feel, from the clarity fo the discussion.
I totally agree with Chris Brewer's very comprehensive remarks. Two additional thoughts: a) Having a look at the new paving in Bonn Square I wonder how difficult it will be to remove chewing gum etc? b) Paving over lawns and flower beds isn't exactly very green...
I don't go to Bonn Square any more. It upsets me so much that I'd rather take a detour than have to walk past it.
Just been to Bonn Square on this lovely summerâs day, it is great to see how people are enjoying this newly improved social public space. There are tourists resting their tired feet, others reading books, families meeting before going off to have a meal, perhaps at one of the marvellous restaurants at Oxford Castle. At last Oxford has its own pleasant public space which is away from the traffic.
Have you seen the comments on the other forums about poor access for people with disabilities, the dangerous edges to it, the poor quality of the materials, not to mention the costs? andrew > From: <email obscured> > Subject: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square > To: <email obscured> > Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 23:24:08 +1200 > > Just been to Bonn Square on this lovely summer’s day, it is great to see how people are enjoying this newly improved social public space. There are tourists resting their tired feet, others reading books, families meeting before going off to have a meal, perhaps at one of the marvellous restaurants at Oxford Castle. At last Oxford has its own pleasant public space which is away from the traffic. > Nicholas Newman > Oxford, Oxfordshire, England, Oxford, > Info about Nicholas Newman: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/nicholasnewman > > View all messages on this topic at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2f5MRicduDjoqkeebBVbAG > ----------------------------------------- > To post, e-mail: <email obscured> > Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" > in subject, then send to: <email obscured> > > More information about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net _________________________________________________________________ MSN straight to your mobile - news, entertainment, videos and more. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/
I wonder if Mr Newman questioned everyone in Bonn Square that day, to see if they really were enjoying themselves or whether they were just there because they needed to sit down and that was the only available space. It's certainly not my idea of enjoyment: to sit on backless benches in the baking sun, staring at a joyless display of unsightly posts and metal trash cans, particularly when I remember how nice it was before with all the greenery. This tacky little square must be a great disappointment to the tourists who were expecting to see an attractive historic city. And I wonder how long it will be before the council has to redesign the site, or install barricades, because someone has had a nasty accident on those very dangerous steps.
Andy, There are cock-ups in every scheme and sometimes they are put right. The engineering cock-up which I see at Bonn Square is the failure to align the footway with the last step, so a stop-gap solution is to whack a large (and exceedingly ugly) 'conservation rubbish bin' in such as position so as to prevent falls. This is poor and I guess the competition winning designer may not have been consulted. Whilst this kind of work is costly I think it seems well-enough spent. In recent months the seating has been well used and it looks pleasant enough, even pretty at times. It has an element of fun about it. I find it dispiriting when people with disabilities are prevented from doing reasonable things, but more dispiriting if others are prevented from enjoyment because not everything is accessible to everyone. Balance is needed and whilst the former Bonn Square could look good, it had many mean and penny-pinching bits to it. It had become a Civic provision at a fairly low ebb. It was colonised, at times, by less 'warm and cuddly people' than are acceptable, whereas now many people can be there without too much a problem. It's better to have a lot of people around including some whom are described as undesirable, than to have a public place occupied mainly by people of that description. Getting rid of the 'back' of the old space seemed to be the key decision to make the place open for all. I do think the steps are too narrow, but this may be entirely down to geometry and not moving the memorial. I think it's dreadful that the County scheme, underway in New Inn Hall Street now, seems to pride itself on ignoring the City changes to Bonn Square.
Graham -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Lewis <email obscured>] Sent: 28 June 2009 23:44 To: <email obscured>; <email obscured> Subject: Re: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square Have you seen the comments on the other forums about poor access for people with disabilities, the dangerous edges to it, the poor quality of the materials, not to mention the costs? andrew > From: <email obscured> > Subject: [Oxford-CSW] Bonn Square > To: <email obscured> > Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 23:24:08 +1200 > > Just been to Bonn Square on this lovely summer's day, it is great to see how people are enjoying this newly improved social public space. There are tourists resting their tired feet, others reading books, families meeting before going off to have a meal, perhaps at one of the marvellous restaurants at Oxford Castle. At last Oxford has its own pleasant public space which is away from the traffic. > Nicholas Newman > Oxford, Oxfordshire, England, Oxford, > Info about Nicholas Newman: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/nicholasnewman > > View all messages on this topic at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2f5MRicduDjoqkeebBVbAG > ----------------------------------------- > To post, e-mail: <email obscured> > Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" > in subject, then send to: <email obscured> > > More information about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules > ----------------------------------------- > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net _________________________________________________________________ MSN straight to your mobile - news, entertainment, videos and more. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/ Andrew Lewis Headington, Oxford Info about Andrew Lewis: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/6ch2vKwGnH9k24yGzHsyvi View all messages on this topic at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7uWFl0eLQ8Q0MLSTjxXVcq ----------------------------------------- To post, e-mail: <email obscured> Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly. To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on" in subject, then send to: <email obscured> More information about Oxford - Central, South and West Neighbourhood Forum: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-csw E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules ----------------------------------------- Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
I agree that there was a real need for somewhere to sit in central Oxford, and that the old Bonn Square needed some improvement. But it has been turned into a large, shadeless, empty slope. Most people sit in front of the Tirah Memorial, which means the only vista for them is of BHS, Primark, and the City Library. And the area is looking tacky already. The sculpture of books paid for by the city of Bonn is covered with white graffiti; the bins look stained and spoiled; and the plaque commemorating the opening seems to be deteriorating fast. I am uploading a picture of the defaced sculpture and the plaque.
The following files were added to this topic:
The old Bonn Square actually had MORE seating than the new version, because people used to sit on the low perimeter wall. I remember sitting there myself when I first came to Oxford as a tourist and thinking what a pleasant spot it was, in the shade of those beautiful old trees. Perhaps the Council might consider building a new perimeter wall? This would solve the problem of the dangerous edges on the steps, as well as providing more seating. Access to the square could then be confined to the steps at the higher end in New Inn Hall Street and part of the slope by the church. The square would also benefit from some trees on the western side, to create some afternoon shade and to offset the starkness of the posts. The view from the square is at present very bare and unnattractive, and even worse at night when the floodlights accentuate the cream-painted side of the building next door to the church, making it look like a portacabin in the photographs that I have taken! It would look so much better if there were trees on that side, with the lights shining through the leaves.
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