Last prostitution business on Lake Street
From: Ed Felien Date: 4:43pm, Jan 17, 2008
I think there might be two separate issues here: legalization of prostitution and sexual abuse. I think it would be best to deal with them separately (at least, at first) and then see if there is a connection. It seems to me laws regulating prostitution are unconstitutional on their face. Assuming they are acts between consenting adults, they prohibit freedom of association. Everyone has the right to sell their labor at whatever price they want to charge. Unfortunately, those people with money generally make the determination what a worker will be paid. Making the profession illegal only makes working conditions more dangerous. This is certainly true of migrant workers. An "illegal" migrant worker is not likely to complain about unsafe working conditions. That’s why factory owners want to employ illegal migrant workers but they don’t want them to become legal. If the profession of prostitution were legalized then certain standards of public health could be enforced, and sex workers would enjoy legal protection from rape, fraud and illegal exploitation. But I join with Wizard in celebrating the closing of the last sauna or prostitution business on Lake Street. Now, I wish you could get them off the street in front of my house. The used condoms are unhealthy and difficult to explain to young children waiting for a school bus. I don't think you can constitutionally prohibit prostitution, but I do think you can regulate it through zoning. Adult behavior is not appropriate in neighborhoods. There needs to be a special zone for it that is not in an area where children need to deal with it on a daily basis. With regard to sexual abuse, the figures I've always heard are that one in three women and one in ten men will be sexually abused in their lifetime. These are serious problems that affect the public health of all of us. There is a need for a massive public campaign to educate everyone that sexual abuse is wrong; that if you are the victim of sexual abuse there are places you can go to get help and counseling; and that perpetrators of sexual abuse will be punished. I am sure that Wizard is correct when she says the great preponderance of women (and probably men) in prostitution have been sexually abused. But I’m also sure she knows enough Jesuit logic to recognize this as a post hoc, propter hoc fallacy. There is no evidence in those statistics that would suggest prostitution caused sexual abuse. But let us agree that most women working in prostitution have been victims of sexual abuse. Further, let us agree that many are still suffering from the after effects of that abuse and may be acting out and self-medicating to deal with that trauma. Is it best then to criminalize them? Wouldn’t it be better to not judge the choices these women have made, but instead insist they operate in an adult zone of the city, under safe conditions and that they see a public health nurse every week to get a clean medical health certificate? Also, at these weekly (or monthly) conferences the public health nurse could suggest mental health counseling if that seemed appropriate. The current situation is intolerable. And, for young male prostitutes having unprotected sex, the results can be deadly. We desperately need to deal with this problem. We need to insist that our public officials—at the city, county and state levels—recognize this problem and begin a public resolution. Ed Felien Powderhorn
From: leigh combs Date: 4:53pm, Jan 17, 2008
ok guys women are raped often and by men children are sexually abused often and by men men buy sex often and from women and young people to me there is something very wrong with this picture... Although i have many thoughts and ideas about decriminalizing prostitution - Until the above point is not a disputed point i am not sure how much further this discussion can go..... leigh peace in Powderhorn
From: Jeremiah Bohn Date: 6:03pm, Jan 17, 2008
On Jan 17, 2008, at 10:54 AM, leigh combs wrote: > ok guys > women are raped often and by men > children are sexually abused often and by men > men buy sex often and from women and young people Right. *None* of these behaviors are exhibited by women. The level of sexism exhibited by this post boggles the mind...
---------------------------------------------- Jeremiah Bohn Columbia Heights/Folwell/Near North
From: Jim Graham Date: 6:41pm, Jan 17, 2008
Sorry Jeremiah, While it is truth, it may not be sexism. Men are in fact almost always the perpetrators in Minneapolis. Certainly some women do buy sex, but few. Certainly there have been cases of rape by women, but darned few. As for sexual abuse of children by women, that also happens, but not nearly as often and without nearly the harm as abuse by men. Social mores create an interesting anomaly. Sexual abuse of young boys by older women does NOT seem to cause the same level of damage to them as other abuse. Could it be that the social definition of situation is the factor causing a great deal of the damage to the abused? But back to the point of sexism in Leigh Combs post. I honestly believe that our historic past has bred women genetically to be (as a rule) nicer and better people than men. Is this always the case, certainly not, just the norm. Lets face it, most women have a genetic predisposition to be better people than most men, and this genetic predilection is then supported by society. I do believe there is evidence to support my own sexism in this regard. I have certainly observed it to be the norm right here in Minneapolis. Jim Graham, Ventura Village Words of Wisdom- Some women have to resort to becoming the men they wanted to marry. They should raise their sons to be those men rather than the men they did marry Jeremiah Bohn <email obscured>> wrote: On Jan 17, 2008, at 10:54 AM, leigh combs wrote: > ok guys > women are raped often and by men > children are sexually abused often and by men > men buy sex often and from women and young people Right. *None* of these behaviors are exhibited by women. The level of sexism exhibited by this post boggles the mind...
---------------------------------------------- Jeremiah Bohn Columbia Heights/Folwell/Near North Jeremiah Bohn Columbia Heights/Folwell/Near North Info about Jeremiah Bohn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/jeremiahbohn This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/29QoikoEHcnP7ty32AVA70 ----------------------------------------- To post, send your message to: <email obscured> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on," in subject line and send to: <email obscured> More info about Minneapolis Issues Forum: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules ----------------------------------------- Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at <email obscured> before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
From: Ronald Leurquin Date: 7:02pm, Jan 17, 2008
I'm not sure if there are statistics to back up Leigh's claims, but what was said is not sexist if it is true. It's a simple statement that men are more often the ones committing these acts. It in no way leaves out women as perpetrators as well, just not nearly as often. I believe women outnumber men, by a small percentage of the population. Men far outnumber women in prison or under watch of the criminal justice system. Is that because men are committing crimes more than women? Or maybe the women are just much better at not getting caught or suspected? Ron Leurquin Nokomis East leigh combs wrote: > ok guys > women are raped often and by men > children are sexually abused often and by men men buy sex often and > from women and young people Jeremiah responded Right. *None* of these behaviors are exhibited by women. The level of sexism exhibited by this post boggles the mind...
From: Bill Kahn Date: 8:22pm, Jan 17, 2008
I enjoy reading the various takes on this, but I'm always guided by knowledge of the biology underpinning human behavior and how it is likely influenced by highly variable human culture. Although I normally enjoy Wizard's takes on a number of topics, when we get to her social science research forays of the Seventies, things can get absolutely weird as many have pointed out; but thankfully the Seventies also marked the rise of sociobiology. I won't go into blistering, perhaps error ridden, details, but we are great apes with a relatively small amount of sexual dimorphism size-wise compared to other great ape species (rape is a routine part of life for orangutans, not so much for us), but there are underlying differences between male and female individuals that can settle many of the arguments we are having here, eventually. Reproductive stuff that evolutionary biologists and ecologists study in animals--like sexual attraction, mate assessment and choice, parental investment, resource polygyny, monogamy, pleasure seeking, etc.--that can illuminate very culture laden behaviors in ways that might point us in the right direction when attempting to control perceived damaging behaviors like rape, sexual abuse, and prostitution when they become problematic to individuals and society. As Jim Graham points out, sometimes the cultural stigma of one side of the behavior or the other can be the real problem for us. Biology aside--because it does not necessarily dictate our actions to us--I think the debate ought to center around the rights of the individual. But the thread is about the "last prostitution business on Lake Street," right? Right; sure it is. (Irony over). The LAST prostitution business my [keester]! We may not celebrate this business as they did in ancient Rome, but we aren't going to stop it, either. It is time to get real. Sex is pleasurable and people will put a price on it for that reason; all sorts of things are going to influence folks taking part in that pleasure and it is unreasonable to think government can influence it much now, or ever. It is nice when the urge to merge is mutual and uncompensated on either side save perhaps in the joy of the act or nurturing the resulting offspring, but that ain't the way it happens most of the time, is it? I think the least we can hope for is that no one has to be hurt. Legalization or decriminalization would go a long ways towards achieving that end. Check out an organization that also emerged in the the Seventies, COYOTE (or google it), here: http://www.coyotela.org/what_is.html
From: Wizard Marks Date: 5:06am, Jan 18, 2008
I agree with Ed Felien that prostitution should be legalized, but only AFTER prostitutes have a closed union shop throughout the country. When they can charge $200 a hour base for a bj on Lake St., more than that for an experienced prostitute, time and a half for overtime, double time on Sundays and holidays, with benefits packages that include dental and mental, retirement benefits, and paid vacations, then we can talk about consenting adults. Without all that change, prostitution is still a turd whether legalized or not. Call me when that nirvana is in flower. There has also been a great uproar about the 94% of prostitutes being women sexually abused as children under 18. I will concede a 3 or 4 point deviation, plus or minus of the 94%. Best case is still 90%. Just how many prostituted women do you think are in the Twin Cities? And what percentage of the sexually abused female population do they comprise? I'd be willing to wager that they comprise a fairly small percentage of all the sexually abused female children. Overwhelmingly, this thread has been an exercise in protecting the status quo with minor adjustments. There is no possibility that the status quo will be overturned in the lifetime of anyone on this list--or their children. Instead, what we have to deal with is the reality of street prostitutes, sauna prostitutes, and outcall prostitutes. According to the police, the women at Kim Y's sauna (formerly the Royal Knight) were held there against their will after being brought to this country for purposes of prostitution. Certainly the women at the Utopia were never observed leaving the building in eight years, though I once observed a van delivering women and a very furtive looking operation it was--in the middle of the night. I won't let women off the hook either. Kim Y's has been run by a woman for years. The Utopia was also run by a woman for 30+ years. Rebecca Rand even gave a lecture tour attempting trying to rally support after they threw her butt in jail for owning and operating prostitution sites. Old fashioned bordellos are most often portrayed as being managed, if not owned, by women. Women run many of the outcall services. And, of course, there is the Mayflower Madam and her peer group, more pimps by another name. All those women are procurers victimizing other women. The systems of prostitution operates by pimping women for money. To say we should legalize the unholy mess that prostitution is, is just nuts. If you have any capacity for compassion at all, looking at prostitutes is a painful exercise. It is unfathomable to advocate for legalizing prostitution as it is now practiced in Minneapolis in exchange for exams to certify no std's and some relief from brutal pimps. It is no better than the situation we have now, maybe worse. WMarks, Central
From: Mark V Anderson Date: 3:13pm, Jan 18, 2008
james graham wrote: > > But back to the point of sexism in Leigh Combs post. I honestly believe that our historic past has bred women genetically to be (as a rule) nicer and better people than men. Is this always the case, certainly not, just the norm. Lets face it, most women have a genetic predisposition to be better people than most men, and this genetic predilection is then supported by society. I do believe there is evidence to support my own sexism in this regard. I have certainly observed it to be the norm right here in Minneapolis. > Mark Anderson: We may be getting off topic here a bit, but I couldn't let Jim's post go by. I certainly don't believe women have a genetic disposition to be nicer than men. Perhaps milder and more passive, but that's not the same thing. And women don't seem to have the disposition to commit sexual abuse as often as men, but as you said yourself, Jim, abuse can be just as bad when it's not sexual as when it is. When I'm on the street and I see children being mistreated by parents, 90% of the time it is women doing the mistreatment. Of course that's because women are around kids more than men. Nevertheless, mistreating their children seems to be the usual way for dysfunctional women to vent their rage. Women and men are different, but I don't think the "fairer sex" is any sweeter.
From: Bill Kahn Date: 4:36pm, Jan 18, 2008
Good point, Mark. But from an biological evolutionary perspective, Jim said the right thing as an evolved male member of our species, Mark, i.e. a man wouldn't get many mating opportunities going around saying women are capable of the same cruelty and selfishness as men (when every woman courted is said to be the kindest, sweetest one ever met, regardless of her temperament; what counts here is the opportunity for the man), so this sort of answer has been bred into Jim and his ancestors by natural selection. It is an interesting thing to study, though it is tricky to discuss in mixed company (not necessarily talking gender). There is biological support for Jim's view to a point, though; the individuals with no doubts of paternity in our evolutionary past are mothers and this would tend towards greater overall selection pressure for mothers as better parents than for men. Male parenting would probably depend more on sexual selection, a special case of natural selection revolving around mating choices (peacock's tail sort), but choice of good fathers for mates might mean choosing philanderers as well. It gets complicated and it is a difficult thing to determine what is "bred into" any species of animal when we factor in the cultural noise over many millenia. Whether innate better parenting translates into better people is an open question, but that might depend just as much on the parenting skills applied to given individuals as well as biology: 'Nature versus Nurture' for some, but an inseparable mix for those who research it closely. We are as chance and circumstance made us, or God if you like. As far as Wizard's reference, there are many studies from the Seventies and so many bad ones that folks have a right to be skeptical; they almost have a genetic lineage. One can look at the references in a study and if a debunked piece of work appears in a supporting role, discount the whole work in science; replicating work can have a whole different sort of meaning in different branches of science and scholarship. Unfortunately, some replication is pernicious. I can't say much about anything I haven't seen or heard of in great detail, though, so perhaps I've said enough.
On Jan 18, 2008, at 9:12 AM, Anderson&Turpin wrote: > james graham wrote: >> >> But back to the point of sexism in Leigh Combs post. I honestly >> believe that our historic past has bred women genetically to be >> (as a rule) nicer and better people than men. Is this always the >> case, certainly not, just the norm. Lets face it, most women have >> a genetic predisposition to be better people than most men, and >> this genetic predilection is then supported by society. I do >> believe there is evidence to support my own sexism in this regard. >> I have certainly observed it to be the norm right here in >> Minneapolis. >> > Mark Anderson: > We may be getting off topic here a bit, but I couldn't let Jim's > post go > by. I certainly don't believe women have a genetic disposition to be > nicer than men. Perhaps milder and more passive, but that's not the > same thing. And women don't seem to have the disposition to commit > sexual abuse as often as men, but as you said yourself, Jim, abuse can > be just as bad when it's not sexual as when it is. When I'm on the > street and I see children being mistreated by parents, 90% of the time > it is women doing the mistreatment. Of course that's because women > are > around kids more than men. Nevertheless, mistreating their children > seems to be the usual way for dysfunctional women to vent their rage. > Women and men are different, but I don't think the "fairer sex" is any > sweeter. >
From: leigh combs Date: 5:55pm, Jan 18, 2008
i have compassion for Jeremiah's response i did not want to fluff up my post by saying something that was obvious - yes correct - women have raped, sexually abused children and even bought a prostitute...BUT i still stand by my post that what it will take to stop rape, sexual abuse and prostitution - men - men who are willing to talk about it and hold other men accountable and call them on their actions. Bill - regarding the excerpt below from your post..do you think that the sex act that is paid for is pleasurable for the prostitute? Do you really think that people who are buying sex are all buying it for "pleasure"? the guys who are married and come and pick up prostitutes in my neighborhood - is that about pleasure or is it about compulsion, shame, power, our societies six and warped view of sex and women? leigh peace in Powderhorn Bill Kahn post below: Sex is pleasurable and people will put a price on it for that reason; all sorts of things are going to influence folks taking part in that pleasure and it is unreasonable to think government can influence it much now, or ever. It is nice when the urge to merge is mutual and uncompensated on either side save perhaps in the joy of the act or nurturing the resulting offspring, but that ain't the way it happens most of the time, is it?
From: Laura Waterman Wittstock Date: 7:17pm, Jan 18, 2008
On Jan 18, 2008, at 9:12 AM, Anderson&Turpin wrote: > james graham wrote: >> >> But back to the point of sexism in Leigh Combs post. I honestly >> believe that our historic past has bred women genetically to be >> (as a rule) nicer and better people than men. >> > Mark Anderson: > I certainly don't believe women have a genetic disposition to be > nicer than men. Perhaps milder and more passive, but that's not the > same thing. And women don't seem to have the disposition to commit > sexual abuse as often as men, but as you said yourself, Jim, abuse can > be just as bad when it's not sexual as when it is. Higher testosterone levels have been rewarded with greater numbers of progeny but that does not mean it is a good thing in the contemporary context. Females on the other hand, throughout the ape world (including humans) select their mates. So there may appear to be passivity "bred" into females, but that is not the case. Males are dependent on females for passing their genes into the next generation. Females, with fewer chances for top quality progeny, select mates carefully. Males with lots of chances for the same, try to have many progeny in the hope that some will be top quality. Seduction and rape of course fit into the male strategy as well. Usually, but not always, females group together to prevent this from happening. They are reinforced by males who want their progeny and only their progeny to succeed. Even with so called love and marriage, this construct is common to all primates. So where does prostitution fit in? It seems to also protect female selection by offering "false" opportunities to the males. But in a world with values, culture, and norms, we have tried to come a long way from our ancestral nature and we have tried to control behavior based on these beliefs and norms. I think reform will only come with greater understanding. We are apes and we behave like apes. We need to practice peace and we need to protect the females that do the prostitution work. They can't be reviled and mistreated. As Wizard says, they need salaries and benefits and respect. Laura Southeast/Como Laura Waterman Wittstock President and CEO Wittstock & Associates 913 19th Ave SE Minneapolis, MN 55414 612-387-4915 www.laurawatermanwittstock.com
From: phædrus (Jason Goray) Date: 8:54pm, Jan 18, 2008
Before posting any further on this topic, I should ask anyone who is arguing against any form of legalization of prostitution: Do you believe that consenting adults should be prohibited from exchanging money for sex? In this question, "consenting" implies the ability and competence to give consent. If your answer to that question is "No", then the rest of this is worth discussing. If your answer to that question is "Yes", then we have nothing to discuss and should let this conversation end. Now, on to my response to the latest: "If you have any capacity for compassion at all, looking at prostitutes is a painful exercise. It is unfathomable to advocate for legalizing prostitution as it is now practiced in Minneapolis in exchange for exams to certify no std's and some relief from brutal pimps. It is no better than the situation we have now, maybe worse." The key words here are "As it is now practiced". My basic assertation is that the way it is now practiced is a direct result of it being a black market trade. I also assert that many of the nasty things that are a part of that world are also a direct result of it being a black market trade. My conclusion is that by making it NOT a black market trade, you change both the way it is practiced and eliminate many of the sources of abuse. For what its worth, I think that a prostitute's union may well make sense. However, unionization and further details like closed shop/open shop and rates are nuances that are really only worth getting into if there is any chance that legalization might be considered. For what its worth, there already is an International Union of Sex Workers based out of Great Britain (http://www.iusw.org/). The cover much more than just prostitution. I am somewhat bemused by the implication that due to my point of view on this subject I have no capacity for compassion. I realize after re-reading it that it is really talking about looking at the current situation for lower class prostitutes in our culture. I agree that the situation is painful. I personally think it is intolerable. My reaction to looking at the situation and practicing compassion for all those involved is to want to change the situation. The truth of the situation is that in places where prostitution is banned, a higher percentage of prostitutes will be victims - both of predators and of law enforcement. My sense is that in many cases, people are more or less OK with this because they see the act of prostitution as being immoral. I am NOT asserting that this is the case with people currently arguing against legalization on this list - they have made it clear that they are arguing out of concern for the welfare of the prostitutes. I do think that in society at large, this point of view does not seem to be uncommon. Lest I come off as overly gullible and dewy eyed, it should be noted that in the Netherlands, there IS still a problem with women being illegally coerced to work as prostitutes and there are problems with human trafficking. Legalization won't make the problems go away but it will reduce them and it will allow law enforcement to focus their efforts on things that are actual crimes (can it be called anything other than slavery when someone is forced to work? slavery compounded with rape when they are forced into prostitution?) rather than a consensual transaction between willing adults. I'm not sure if there are similar issues in the legal brothels in Nevada - my sense is that it is unlikely as the much smaller scale should make it easier for law enforcement to ensure that abuses aren't taking place but I can't say for certain. So, to recap the two points I am arguing: * It is wrong to prohibit the exchange of money for sex between consenting adults. * The amount of harm being done related to prostitution will be reduced by legalizing and licensing it. - phaedrus (j.goray), 3-6, earth.
From: Jim Graham Date: 8:56pm, Jan 18, 2008
One last venture into the other discussion. But it has been fun. And thanks to the ladies who sent me off-list e-mail And also, thank you Bill. You might be correct, my attitudes did evolve from watching how women and men treated children, and it did make me desire to mate with nice ladies rather than mean people. But it could just be socialization. I was brought up at my Mama's knee to appreciate beautiful ladies, and the first thing she taught me was that ALL ladies are beautiful. I am sure other generations before me made the same choice and remained around that "nice" person long enough to ensure the product of that mating successfully matured to mate themselves. I believe that is the way evolution was taught to me back in the Stone Age. But Bill is right in another way. Hopefully, Minneapolis women will make mating choices of males who appreciate women. They also probably make for fathers who appreciate the children of those women more, and hopefully are less abusive. There really is "wisdom" in that saying: "Some women have to resort to becoming the men they wanted to marry. They should raise their sons to be those men rather than the men they did marry." Jim Graham, Ventura Village "If you do not define yourself for yourself, you will be crunched into other people's fantasies of who you should be and lose the whom, who you are. Death strikes more than just a body, sometimes it claims a soul and the body may not know that it is dead and thus continue on for years. But remember crickets, with even a small strike for individuality the individual person may be reborn, and thereby may come resurrection."
--------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
From: David Brauer Date: 9:10pm, Jan 18, 2008
Hey folks, a polite suggestion: we're kinda beyond Minneapolis with the bulk of this discussion. Time to move to something else?
From: leigh combs Date: 10:50pm, Jan 18, 2008
ok my last post on this topic and i too have enjoyed the conversation in the late 1800's there were many legal houses of prostitution in St. Paul & Minneapolis...there were actually more in St. Paul and it was kindnof a port town at that time the only work for women was domestic labor and slave labor the most expensive house built in St. Paul at that time was owned by a madam then due to the pressure from the wives of many of those who visited the prostitutes religious influence and also i believe that some thought the women had too much money and independence prostitution was made illegal. I by having prostitution illegal people who are prostituting have no recourse and children have no protection from prostitution. There for i too am one who believes that we need to engage in this conversation and make changes. again thanks for the conversation oh and what ever happened to that pesky Equal Rights Amendment?... oh that's another thread :) peace from Powderhorn leigh
From: Wizard Marks Date: 5:09am, Jan 19, 2008
Jim Graham: "I honestly believe that our historic past has bred women genetically to be (as a rule) nicer and betterpeople than men." Women are trained from birth to be nice. The consequences of not being nice can be pretty grim. It's a function of our second class status. As Leigh says, "...about the ERA." Goodness has nothing to do with it. WMarks, Central PS: A new whore house has sprung up on Lake St. Rats!!
From: Russ Hanson Date: 3:21pm, Jan 19, 2008
Should prostitution be legalized? Why not? When it comes to women...it's cheaper to rent 'em...than to buy 'em! Rowdy Russ Hanson. The Truth in St.Paul.
You cannot post because you are not logged in. Please login or join to post.