Snow Plowing - what happened to "curb to curb?"

Any day now we're sure to have our first snowfall that will require our
snowplows to hit the streets. And like most years, we're sure to have our
streets poorly plowed with the roadways getting progressively narrower and
narrower as the season progresses. I don't fault the crews who do the plowing
since I believe the decision to no longer plow "curb to curb" is made as a
matter of policy by those much higher up in the bureaucracy. But the buck
surely stops with the mayor and our city council members. Here's a statement
from the city's Snow Emergency page:

"After a street is fully plowed to the curb, feel free to park there,
even if Snow Emergency parking rules are still in effect.
Fully plowed means the street is completely cleared and plowed to the curb.
Plows may come through more than once, so make sure that it is
fully plowed to the curb before parking."
(http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/snow/parking-info.asp) or
(http://tinyurl.com/parking-plowing-info)

So how about joining with me to make this a full blown issue this year? I've
been waiting for months to write this note and try to impact the dangerous
streets we're provided with from about January 1st on. Our side streets do not
need to be single lane since the city is charged with providing us with safe
streets plowed "curb to curb." Let's flood our mayor and council members with
emails and phonecalls and remind them of the type of snow plowing they claim
they do and that we're paying for. Here's a link to the council member's
contact information: (http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/council/) or
(http://tinyurl.com/city-council)

Let's make it happen for all of us.

Michael K
Powderhorn Park

The side streets in front of my house get plowed curb-to-curb.

I will grant that where I live, there's much less crowding of cars parked along
the side streets, but what I've noticed is where this doesn't happen is where a
greater number of folks fail to follow the snow emergency rules.

So if your neighborhood is not getting plowed curb-to-curb, then maybe what is
needed is a greater effort to educate your neighbors on why following the snow
emergency rules is important and worth the hassle.

Mark Snyder
Windom Park

Whether the streets are getting plowed
curb to curb or not, by the January most streets are in marginal condition due
to our system of taking three days to
plow the streets. It's still incredible to me that neighboring cities are
cleared by noon after a snowfall, and
we're not even declared "snow emergency" yet in many cases. Driving down 29th
Avenue across Stinson into St.
Anthonyshows the starkest contrast.I'm sure there is a better system, but I'm
also sure it would cost more
and we're apparently not willing to pay for it.-- Kevin Wynn, DadMinneapolis,
MN2005 Ural Tourist
"Tpehora"Northern Bikers for Global WarmingOn Wed, 26 Nov 2008 05:09:02 +1300
(NZDT)"Mark
Snyder" <<email obscured>> wrote:> The side streets in front of my house get
plowed >curb-to-curb.
> > I will grant that where I live, there's much less >crowding of cars parked
along the side
streets, but what >I've noticed is where this doesn't happen is where a
>greater number of folks fail to
follow the snow emergency >rules.> > So if your neighborhood is not getting
plowed
>curb-to-curb, then maybe what is needed is a greater >effort to educate your
neighbors on why following
the >snow emergency rules is important and worth the hassle.> > Mark Snyder>
Windom
Park> > > Mark Snyder> Windom Park, Minneapolis> Info about Mark Snyder:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/marksnyder> > This topic's messages may be
viewed at:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2D7Px7N8dAdRUkj9OXfu9l>

Rest of post

What has always amazed me is the inequality of enforcement of the 'snow
emergency' rules.
In uptown it seems there is not tolerance, and cars get towed as fast as the
companies can tow.
In both neighborhoods I have lived, no one gets towed; the plow just goes
around it.
I have been fortunate to have always had off street parking here (something
that I feel a need to have), so getting towed for snow rules has never been an
issue for me.

And don't get me started on how confusing Mpls 'snow emergency' plans are.
Or on how there is sometimes not nearly enough early notification of one being
placed.
Yes, people who park on the street should be a bit more vigilant in listening
for these to happen, they are a part of life living in a northern city.

Ron Leurquin
Nokomis East

Mark shared:
So if your neighborhood is not getting plowed curb-to-curb, then maybe what is
needed is a greater effort to educate your neighbors on why following the snow
emergency rules is important and worth the hassle.

Mark, you're lucky. Up here in northeast Northeast, I've consistently
noted that the snow is plowed a good 14 to 18 inches out from the curb
throughout the 13 years I've been living on this street. This happens
during light snow seasons as well as heavy snow seasons. The neighbors
are very dutiful about following snow emergency regulations, so that
doesn't explain the narrow path that gets plowed. It's been a pet
peeve since I moved here and was shocked by the way Minneapolis
streets are maintained in comparison to the other suburbs nearby that
I'm familiar. I recall Rybak making a big deal out of snow plowing
when he campaigned. Shortly after he was elected, I recall some public
meetings were held for public input on what to do about street and
alley plowing messes, but I don't think anything ever came of that
input. At least not that I can see up here. Alleys are another
debacle. Every winter my car gets stuck at least once in my alley.
Sometimes I've had to park on the street because the alley is more
impassable than the street.

Gayle Bonneville
Waite Park neighborhood

I agree with Kevin that it seems like there's an unnecessary delay at times in
declaring snow emergencies in Minneapolis.

The best I can guess on why this would be the case is that for every person
that complains about how long it takes to declare snow emergencies, there are
probably five or ten that complain about their cars being towed because a snow
emergency was declared.

I'm honestly not sure how the city could better balance between these competing
demands. It seems like between printed mailings with annual snow emergency
rules, email alerts you can sign up for, robo-calls and announcements on the
local TV (and I presume radio) broadcasts, the city is covering about all the
available bases for getting the word out about snow emergencies, so I can't say
I have that much sympathy for someone whose car gets towed. Maybe the city
needs to swing more in the favor of the folks who are being good neighbors by
declaring snow emergencies and getting going on plowing earlier.

As far as Rybak campaigning about snow plowing, what I recall was that it was
looked into and Rybak and his staff realized that between the financial mess
they inherited from the previous administration and the massive investment it
would take in additional equipment and staff to accomplish significantly
shorter snow emergency declarations made it not financially feasible.

Mark Snyder
Windom Park

Mark shared:
"So if your neighborhood is not getting plowed curb-to-curb, then maybe what is
needed is a greater effort to educate your neighbors on why following the snow
emergency rules is important and worth the hassle."

Mark, let me assure you that the people in my neighborhood, Powderhorn Park,
are every bit as conscientious as the folks living in yours. We generally don't
hang around to see who can afford more $200 experiences than the other.

That aside, my post was not about snow emergencies but about the general poor
plowing I've experienced all over the city (maybe Windom is the exception).
I've paid close attention to this issue (yes, in the routes I frequent) and
have observed over and over the plows going down the street 2-3 feet from the
curb, pushing up a kerf (?) just several inches high - I'm absolutely serious
about this. And we're paying for curb to curb plowing. It's in the city's
documents - we're paying for it and not getting it. We're getting mediocre
plowing and I think it's due to some manager trying to massage his/her
departmental budget by having the plowing go faster (once they start...) and by
putting less stress on the equipment. I suspect this is condoned either
straight out or ignored right up the chain of responsibility.

And unless you all help out by not settling for mediocre plowing and by making
phone calls and sending emails to your council members, we'll spend another few
winter months dodging each other as we wind our way down our single lane
streets.

Michael Kehoe wrote:

>. . .we'll spend another few winter months dodging each other as we wind our
way down our single lane streets.

ML:

Maybe this is the City of Minneapolis's way of implementing low cost traffic
calming improvements to some of our neighborhood streets? Single through lane
roads, also known as queuing streets, are very effective at slowing down auto
traffic and making streets more hospitable to walking, to biking, and to
adjacent living due to decreased motor vehicle traffic and speeds.
Essentially, as Michael describes, motorists queue up and take turns passing on
these streets.

Some history on wide street design along with a database of communities that
has implemented narrow street design standards is available here:

http://www.sonic.net/abcaia/narrow.htm

I've also uploaded an image outlining the City of Portland, OR design standards
for queuing streets as an additional reference.

Matty Lang,
Midtown Phillips

Rest of post

The posted image traffic_queuing_street.jpg

traffic_queuing_street.jpg 135.15kb

Kevin Wynn's comment about Minneapolis taking 3 days to plow streets compared
to neighboring cities fails to take into account the size of the job.

Minneapolis has about 50% more streets than St. Paul (over 1,100 miles in
Minneapolis to 827 miles in St. Paul), while other neighboring cities (suburbs)
have even less. Even a spread-out suburb like Eden Prairie has only 222 miles
of streets to be plowed (and hardly any alleys at all).

There isn't a whole lot of difference in plowing rate.
St. Paul plows 827 miles of streets in 20 hours = 41 miles/hour.
Minneapolis plows 1100 miles of streets in 35 hours = 31 miles/hour.

Does St. Paul plow alleys? I know that in the past it was up to
property owners to contract privately for plowing alleys. The policy
might have changed, though. Then there are the suburbs that ban on-
street parking during the winter months ...

Rest of post

Tim Bonham wrote:
> Minneapolis has about 50% more streets than St. Paul (over
> 1,100 miles in Minneapolis to 827 miles in St. Paul),...

Using the most common rules of arithmetic, Minneapolis has
33% more streets than Minneapolis, almost exactly a third
more. Minneapolis plows the allies, while St. Paul doesn't.

> There isn't a whole lot of difference in plowing rate.
> St. Paul plows 827 miles of streets in 20 hours = 41 miles/hour.
> Minneapolis plows 1100 miles of streets in 35 hours = 31 miles/hour.

Saint Paul simply plows more aggressively. The the "Night Plow
Routes" ("Snow Emergency Routes" for the Minneapolis-centric)
_and_ half of the north-south streets are plowed in the first
nine hours of a snow emergency, from 9 p.m. to 6 a.m. Saint
Paul plows the east-west street and the other side of the
north-south streets in another nine hours (following a two
hour break) from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. So, Saint Paul claims
to plow the streets in 20 hours (including a two-hour break).
<http://www.ci.saint-paul.mn.us/DocumentView.asp?DID=2826>

Minneapolis plows at a more leisurely pace. It plows
the Snow Emergency Routes for 11 hours, from 9 p.m. until
8 a.m. Then it plows half of the non-Snow Emergency
Routes for the next 12 hours, from 8 a.m. until 8 p.m.
Following that, Minneapolis rests for twelve hours.
The other half of the non-Snow Emergency Routes are
plowed for for 12 hours, from 8 a.m. until 8 p.m. on the
third day. It takes Minneapolis 47 hours to plow the
streets, including a 12-hour break.
<http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/snow/parking-info.asp>

So, it takes Minneapolis more than twice as long to
plow the streets (47 versus 20 hours).

I _think_ that this is largely an issue of union work
rules and the use of contractors, not the miles of
streets. (Never mind that the miles of streets
shouldn't make any difference, because Minneapolis,
being larger, should be able to afford more plows).

So, why does it take Minneapolis twice as long as
Saint Paul to plow the streets?

And, as someone who parks in both Minneapolis and Saint
Paul, why can't the two cities plow on the same schedule?

-tjs

Rest of post

No, there is no city plowing of alleys here, it's contracted which can be an
iffy thing in some neighborhoods. As with garbage hauling this is a blast from
the past that should be addressed sooner than later ( as with garbage, there
can be more than one contractor per alley).
On the other hand---by noon on the day after a snow emergency is declared, we
are plowed curb to curb. Or sincerely close anyway, the local curbs are pink
granite slabs that most blades would prefer not to mess with.

Still not a St. Paulite though,

Jon Gorder
Cathedral Hill

Does St. Paul plow alleys? I know that in the past it was up to
property owners to contract privately for plowing alleys. The policy
might have changed, though. Then there are the suburbs that ban on-
street parking during the winter months ...

Dick Shanahan
Powderhorn

Rest of post

I had put out an idea several years ago that I thought would work to improve
the plowing schedule. I thought that Minneapolis could go to a system similar
to St Paul's but with a slight twist. Rather than having to put up a "night
plow" or "day plow" sign on every street, the City could simply increase the
number of "snow emergency routes" The City would declare a snow emergency.
Everyone would get off the snow emergency routes overnight. The next morning,
the City would then plow everything that wasn't a snow emergency route. You
would sign half the City as snow emergency routes to get the plowing balanced
between the two plow shifts. Once the snow emergency route was plowed curb to
curb, you could park on it, meaning that some people would be able to move
their cars back in a couple of hours, depending on when the plows came through.
Doing this would let you custom-fit to the needs of differing parts of the
City. If some parts needed more density of plowed streets, y!
ou would simply add more snow emergency routes. If you were short of streets
in some places, you could have fewer snow emergency routes and do more plowing
the next day when people would (usually) be at work. Some people would have to
park a block away possibly, but it would mean everything would be plowed within
24 hours.

Also, I think that the City could do more to expand the pool of drivers and
trucks. For example, why can't garbage trucks plow? They do that out east.
For garbage, it would be like a holiday and your garbage would be picked up one
day later. All those guys have commercial drivers licenses. And I wonder about
other staff being trained to drive snow plows. I know in my government job,
there is always "other duties as assigned". If the problem is overtime, why
can't other folks be trained as snow plow drivers. It would be only a couple
of days of work a year.

I do think there are ideas out there to be explored.

Carol Becker
Longfellow
Who is writing as her turkey bakes...

Rest of post

Several days ago I received a very long email(1,300 words)from Mike Kennedy,
Director, Transportation Maintenance & Repair, Minneapolis Department of Public
Works, regarding my concerns over snowplowing in Minneapolis. Due to the length
of the note I'll not post it here but you may contact me and I will forward it
to you. Mr. Kennedy said I may dissiminate his comments or may summarize them.
Following is my reply (long at 570 words) to Mr. Kennedy:

"Mr. Kennedy,

Thank you for your detailed note regarding my post to the Mpls. Issues Forum
concerning the state of snow plowing in Minneapolis. What I take away from your
note are several points:

a) Mother Nature is at the root of the plowing problems,

b) Plow operators are instructed to plow as close to the curb as possible,

c) Machinery may become damaged if the streets are plowed too closely to the
curb,

d) Mpls. residents often don't move their cars in time,

e) Mpls. uses the phrase "curb to curb plowing" in their snow emergency rules
but has never meant it to be taken literally,

f) Mpls. uses the phrase because its employees and elected officials cannot
think up a better way to describe the way plowing is actually conducted,

g) Residents can assist the city by thinking up a better way to describe the
plowing that it does,

h) Residents misunderstand the phrase "curb to curb plowing" to mean plowing to
the curb on both sides of the street,

i) Residents would not like true curb to curb plowing because in years of
exceptional snowfall snow would be pushed up too high and will spill over onto
sidewalks.

To summarize these points, you seem to be saying the city is doing the best job
that it can and that the residents either misunderstand mother nature, plowing
dynamics, use of language, or would complain if things were done differently.

As you might expect I do not see the situation as you describe. I have observed
for far too long plow operators plow and create lasting, frozen windrows
several feet from the curb. Let me emphasize that when I say several feet I
mean 36 inches. And as I said in my first posting, I do not blame the plow
operators; I believe they plow as they are told.

Are there times when plowing to the curb may be impractical? Of course. If a
particular winter becomes extreme with snowfall then adjustments naturally have
to be made. More snow would need to be hauled away and plowing may have to
extend further from the curb. But I would consider these adjustments to be the
result of necessity, not of convenience.

If, on a normal winter, the plows are plowing one foot from the curb by the end
of December, two feet by the end of January, and three feet by the end of
February, and then we have one, or more, of those heavy late winter snows,
well, we're in quite a fix. However, if normal snowfalls were pushed to the
curb and onto the boulevard early in the season, then by February/March, while
the streets may have begun to narrow, there would still be adequate room for
safe driving.

I'll again post one of the relevant paragraphs from the snow emergency rules
which shows that the city seems to mean curb to curb due to their repeating
their insistence on observing the specification thrice in one short paragraph.

“After a street is fully plowed to the curb, feel free to park there, even if
Snow Emergency parking rules are still in effect. Fully plowed means the street
is completely cleared and plowed to the curb. Plows may come through more then
once, so make sure that it is fully plowed to the curb before parking.”

Again, thank you for taking the time to consider my concerns."

Michael Kehoe

I read with some interest the Snow Plow discussion and almost held my
tongue.

I've been living in Minneapolis since 1956. As many of you know I've
lived all over from Longfellow to Waite Park, Prospect Park to East
Isles, Shingle Creek to Lynhurst.

Minneapolis does a great job of plowing the streets.

I could say more but, it seems that some folks will never be content
with the great level of service they get from our City.
This discussion mimics those I've heard since 1962 when I first had a
plow wait for me and my neighbors to move cars out of deep snow banks
before they plowed our street.

Rest of post

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Snow Plowing - what happened to "curb to curb?"

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