All posts in the topic Dairy Queen No, Caribou Yes
Summary
- There are 29 posts — by 19 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Brigid Volk at 2007 Oct 24 21:19 UTC
Some time ago I remember a discussion about a drive up window proposed
for the Dairy Queen on the corner of Minnehaha
Ave and Minnehaha Pkwy. I don't remember the official reason they were
turned down, but just noticed that the new Caribou on Minnehaha Pkwy and
Cedar Ave. has a spanking new drive-up window. Cedar is probably a much
busier street than Minnehaha Ave.; the traffic on the Parkway there is
about the same as it is over the hill on the Minnehaha Ave. Does that
mean it's OK to add to congestion that already is too high, but not OK
if the street configuration is able to handle more congestion? Or is
this about coffee vs. ice cream?
Interesting questions, Dan. I suspect it is all about the drugs; most
folks want and use them and enjoy it delivered in the scalding hot
liquid in a variety of ways, including through the driver's side
window. I suspect there was much less opposition from neighbors to a
legal dealer of drugs that nearly everyone uses than one of highly
refined and processed carbohydrates and other greasy foods in bulky
and inconvenient packaging for driving off into the sunset/sunrise
from the drive-through, i.e., one makes drivers alert and careful and
the other makes them fumbling idiots.
Actually Bill, those Dairy Queens also sold coffee in several forms. So it would have been possible to drive up to the Dairy Queen and get your "fix" of legal drug. I have gone into Dairy Queen and done the same while my kids consumed then highly processed carbs. Of course much of Caribou's "coffee" drinks also have huge amounts of highly processed carbs as well as trans'fats. I think it has to do with how "Kewell" (sorry if I did not spell it right Wizard) a Caribou is when compared to a Dairy Queen. Is effete snobbery is a major "planning" consideration in Minneapolis? Apparently so. Having no children at home, and my Tallie, being two years old, means I will appreciate that snobbery for about the next two years. I like coffee more than frozen custard. After that time I would indeed miss being able to walk up with a child in hand and order a cone, to her delight, and a coffee for myself. I will miss that intimacy of sharing a special moment. We may have too many way "kewell" CM's without children to appreciate that. Though I am sure Mayor RT (with his children) understands exactly what I mean. I also really miss the neighborhood Bridgman's Ice cream. Now that was also special. You could get coffee too. I would love a drive-up Bridgman's with good coffee. Right now the closest I get is the Franklin Street Bakery. I get coffee that is better than any Caribou with the best, most "refined" bake-goods in Minnesota. Mr. Kostrowski's coffee and an almond paste roll or cup-cake is to die for. If they had a drive through it would be way "KEWELL"! Buena Ventura to each of you this morning, and may the joy of love be with you. Jim Graham, Ventura Village "First thing every morning before you arise say out loud, 'I believe,' three times. Then get the hell up and go make it happen." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Thank you, Tara; I suspected it was something sensible, but that
would not have been as much fun to conjecture about. Jim should note
that a stone's throw towards Hiawatha from the DQ in question is an
Embers/Bridgemans that you can get ice cream cones and fountain
specialties (I really miss the Bridgemans cob salad, though). I'm
having cravings for pastry with almond paste, now, so thanks to Jim
as well.
Horst Rechelbacher tore down the Dairy Queen on E. Hennepin Ave. (near 35W)
three years ago to create a parking lot for his flagship Intelligent Nutrients
store. Not a place I take the kids, but I heard you could get something called
organic chocolate nutraceuticals.
As I was planning staff for Mpls when both referenced projects were proposed, I
can assure you that whether or not the use is cool or not has no bearing on
staff recommendations. DQ could not come up with anywhere near a viable site
plan that public works or planning could live with, for example providing the
required number of stacking spaces for the drive through window or allowing
pedestrian access from the buidling that wouldn't cross drive through lanes.
The Caribou site allowed a drive though by right based on the zoning and they
were able to meet all site plan review requirements so there was nothing on
which to base a denial recommendation. Staff would have loved to see new
development there that came up to the street and closed all those curb cuts
(one was closed at least) but the owner wanted to use the existing buildings
and that is his/her right.
Tara Beard
Midtown Phillips
> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 09:59:16 -0700> From: <email obscured>> Subject:
Re: [Mpls] Dairy Queen No, Caribou Yes> To: <email obscured>;
<email obscured>> > Actually Bill, those Dairy Queens also sold
coffee in several forms. So it would have been possible to drive up to the
Dairy Queen and get your "fix" of legal drug. I have gone into Dairy Queen and
done the same while my kids consumed then highly processed carbs. Of course
much of Caribou's "coffee" drinks also have huge amounts of highly processed
carbs as well as trans'fats.> > I think it has to do with how "Kewell" (sorry
if I did not spell it right Wizard) a Caribou is when compared to a Dairy
Queen. Is effete snobbery is a major "planning" consideration in Minneapolis?
Apparently so.> > Having no children at home, and my Tallie, being two years
old, means I will appreciate that snobbery for about the next two years. I like
coffee more than frozen custard. After that time I would indeed miss being able
to walk up with a child in hand and order a cone, to her delight, and a coffee
for myself. I will miss that intimacy of sharing a special moment.> > We may
have too many way "kewell" CM's without children to appreciate that. Though I
am sure Mayor RT (with his children) understands exactly what I mean.> > I also
really miss the neighborhood Bridgman's Ice cream. Now that was also special.
You could get coffee too. I would love a drive-up Bridgman's with good coffee.
Right now the closest I get is the Franklin Street Bakery. I get coffee that is
better than any Caribou with the best, most "refined" bake-goods in Minnesota.
Mr. Kostrowski's coffee and an almond paste roll or cup-cake is to die for. If
they had a drive through it would be way "KEWELL"!> > Buena Ventura to each of
you this morning, and may the joy of love be with you.> > > Jim Graham,>
Ventura Village > > "First thing every morning before you arise say out loud,
'I believe,' three times. Then get the hell up and go make it happen."> >
As I was toodling down Minnehaha Parkway to enjoy the leaf colors, I espied the
changes that erased the DQ. It's attempted shi-shi, but it can't quite pull it
off, IMO, since there's a goofy parking arrangement for Caribu and the building
is nothing but a squat box.
Caribu takes up the biggest part of the space, but the little bitty ice cream
shop, called a creamery, is there, without a drive through (rats!). However,
Mapps in the Global Market has better coffee, even though coffee doesn't like
me anymore.
I would dearly love to have restaurants learn to buy tea. A place where you
could get lunch or pastries and a variety of real teas from Assam and China.
This crud in tea bags, whether Lipton or something with pretentions, is not
good tea. It's low on the bush tea, Lipton's is dog-peed-on-the-bush tea. Feh!
O.K. I am glad this subject (albeit stupid in the wake of everything else going
on in the city) came up. We lost the DQ at 8th and 11th Av and the one on
Franklin and 5th. I am not blaming Alan Arthur but hey I give credit where
credit is due. We also lost the one on 49th and Cedar (I grew up out there and
not Alan Arthurs fault) AND according to NRP Policy Board Chair and Minneapolis
Park and Recreation Board Chair who in his real life owns a DQ way up No.
Lyndale somewhere, DQ "isn't interested in replacing any of their stores out
south". WHAT? I am outraged. I know there is still a DQ on 38th and 12th. I am
spoiled. We want one in Whittier, Stevens Square, Ventura Village or Phillips
West. I don't care about a coffee shop, I drink tea.
Barb Lickness
Whittier
p.s. (Got her husband to clean out the garage after 5 years thanks to those
TUBBS bags- happy today)
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
Thanks for the tip on the Bridgemans Bill. I also loved that cob salad. Bill should try "my" bakery, it is one of the best things on a sunny morning to sit outside, read a newspaper and enjoy really good coffee while consuming REALLY good pastries. It is difficult to believe that corner had more 911 calls for violence than anyplace in Minneapolis only six years ago. Hopefully Minneapolis will have some more bright warm mornings and you can enjoy sitting outside by the bakery. For Wizard, you are so right about the tea. Especially tea that resembles coffee it is so thick. I order good tea over the Internet, but would love to have a good restaurant in Minneapolis that specialized in really good tea. Restaurants usually have Lipton or worse (if there is worse).t What a great description of low tea leaves that Wizard gave. I am afraid I will remember it every time I start to drink less than good tea. Jim Graham, Ventura Village __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
This is a nice diversion...given all the political and budgetstuff
downtown...kind of like our venture into bird-watching last spring. Any good
sitings on the Mississippi flyway this fall?
Altho they are restaurants...my nominations for the 'best' coffee (strong and
fragrant)...Kiernan's downtown and Al Vento in my neck of the woods.Maybe they
do to-go'? Sister Sludge is really good...don't need to hide it with latte,
etc. Figure some shops' bad coffee is deliberate...to get us to 'trade up'.
Isn't there a tea cafe/shoppe on Hennepin Avenue near Uptown? In a hurry, for
us 'heathens',Turtlebread on Chicago/46th has pretty good teabags...the
english/Mango.
Best wishes,
cheryl luger
nokomis east
Wizard Marks wrote; > I would dearly love to have restaurants learn to buy tea. A place where > you could get lunch or pastries and a variety of real teas from Assam and > China. I have had good tea in the Twin Cities, but the best is from places that specialize in teas. Is it taboo to say the best place I've found is The Tea Source in St. Paul on 7th and Grand? In the process of googling that place (I couldn't remember the name) I did notice that there are a couple of tea rooms in Minneapolis. There's the Tea Garden at 2601 Hennepin and La Societe Du The at 2708 Lyndale. There's a list of local tea rooms online at http://www.teamap.com/states/state_MN_Name.html. Of course, these online things can be out of date so it's probably best to call first to make sure they're still in business. Jim McGuire Como
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:35:22 -0500, Tara Beard wrote:
>DQ could not come up with anywhere near a viable site plan that public works
or planning could live with, for example providing the required number of
stacking spaces for the drive through window or allowing pedestrian access from
the buidling that wouldn't cross drive through lanes. The Caribou site allowed
a drive though by right based on the zoning and they were able to meet all site
plan review requirements so there was nothing on which to base a denial
recommendation.
For clarification, are you saying that Caribou provided the number of
stacking drive through spaces and pedestrian access that DQ could not?
Or that the two sites were held to different standards?
I guess personally, I'd prefer a White Castle drivethrough to a DQ or a
Caribou (if I want good coffee, either I go to May Day, my local coffee
shop, or I make it myself). Not that this was an option.
The Caribou replaced a vacant gas station. The Grand Creamery replaced the
Dairy Queen. The Dairy Queen/Grand Creamery lot is really small. I think they
did a good job with the space they have.
Same standards applied to both and always do - The Caribou/Creamery project was mine but the DQ was not so I don't remember the details of that site as well. For some reason I think the DQ may have also required a rezoning whereas Caribou/Creamery had the correct zoning already, but I didn't say that before because I'm not positive and can't look it up now that I left the City. For approval, the use has to first have the correct zoning, then have a site plan that meets most or all of the requirements in the zoning code. The stacking spaces requirement is in the parking chapter of the zoning code so that's a different aspect, which can lead to variance applications. Tara Beard Midtown Phillips> From: <email obscured>> To: <email obscured>> CC: <email obscured>> Subject: Re: [Mpls] Dairy Queen No, Caribou Yes> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 06:06:11 +0000> > On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:35:22 -0500, Tara Beard wrote:> > >DQ could not come up with anywhere near a viable site plan that public works or planning could live with, for example providing the required number of stacking spaces for the drive through window or allowing pedestrian access from the buidling that wouldn't cross drive through lanes. The Caribou site allowed a drive though by right based on the zoning and they were able to meet all site plan review requirements so there was nothing on which to base a denial recommendation. > > For clarification, are you saying that Caribou provided the number of> stacking drive through spaces and pedestrian access that DQ could not?> Or that the two sites were held to different standards?> > I guess personally, I'd prefer a White Castle drivethrough to a DQ or a> Caribou (if I want good coffee, either I go to May Day, my local coffee> shop, or I make it myself). Not that this was an option.> > Dave> > David Garland> Powderhorn, Minneapolis> Info about Dave Garland: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/davidgarland> > This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2b5pYbdsEIlv0SAyht14dz>
The most important thing that is being overlooked.
Easy. Support all the independently owned small business's. They serve great
stuff. Make an effort to stop at the May Day for their baked goods, ( the
exceptional breads they sell on Saturday), Stop at Tillies Bean for coffee or
tea(she was ravished with graffiti and a break in this summer- what a way to
show support). Stop at the Tea Source in St. Anthony or St. Paul( Bill W. is
the biggest tea-geek you will ever meet)Diamonds, Sip and the Cliquot Club are
fantastic( and great music at the Cliquot Club)Shop at the co-ops instead of
Roundys Rainbow Morph, Shop at Nokomis Shoes. We can only hope in some of our
neighborhoods like Sorryville Standish that we have one or two places that
exist, no one is complaining about the Super Target Home Depot Morph over off
Cedar- which who can even think of buying food at Super Target?
Face talk is not enough, don't like corporate same-sames shop only local small
independents.
Gina Palandri
Standish
The home of one coffeeshop, one bar and one restaurant.
Thanks, Jim McGuire, for the other tea shop recommends. I use Societe du The,
myself. Wonderful. You can go in and have a cup of any tea in the house to
sample it, but they don't have a kitchen and do not serve food.
However, restaurants, where you can get dinner or lunch or even pastries, serve
tea that cannot call itself tea when the real teas are present. Dunn Bros.,
Caribu, and even May Day all serve a slightly better grade of tea than
Lipton's, but it's still a long way from aromatic, wonderful China and Assam
teas.
I find myself carrying a tea ball in a zip lock baggie when I go out to dinner.
I have to face it, I'm a tea snob. Feel silly on both counts.
Gina, be reasonable. People shop at Rainbow, Cub, and Aldi's because the prices
are lower than the local, independent grocer. Kowalski's, which is owned by a
family in Highland Park, St. Paul, has some pretty steep prices. All the
independent grocers in my neighborhood (4, I think) cannot hope to compete with
the chain grocers for price, quality, or variety. They market convenience and
snack foods. An over-busy mom can send one of the kids there for milk.
Here's a grocery heresy to contemplate: In Ohio there are these stores called
pony kegs. They operate as drive throughs. You either call ahead or speak into
the box and order--all the snack foods for a party and, of course, the beer and
softdrinks. You drive through, pay the tab, and they load up your car.
Hamilton County, which is part of the Cincinnati metro area, has drive up
windows in the libraries. My brother says it's great.
I have one small quibble with Wizard's remarks: I agree, independent grocers
cannot compete on price, and it's very difficult if impossible to compete on
variety. But they can easily surpass the big chains on quality.
Most of the stuff the big chains carry these days I won't eat unless I have no
other choice. In pursuit of the almighty Profit, giant food companies have
pretty much squeezed all the healthy stuff right out of their foods,
externalized a bunch of their costs (petroleum fueled transportation, for one)
and the stuff tastes pretty awful compared to the real thing, too.
As such, because I am able, I will and do pay more for quality, real food most
of the time. If one is poor, one does not have that choice. At least by
buying locally and not through the big chains, I also help reduce the number of
local poor by creating greater local economic activity.
Chris Johnson wrote:
> As such, because I am able, I will and do pay more for quality, real food
most of the time. If one is poor, one does not have that choice. At least by
buying locally and not through the big chains, I also help reduce the number of
local poor by creating greater local economic activity.
>
>
Mark Anderson:
That's funny, I always figured I was helping the poor by buying from
places like Cub and Wal-mart, which usually have the lowest prices. If
we consciously buy from the lowest price seller, whether local or chain,
we'll get more retailers that sell for less. If we buy locally,
regardless of the price, we'll get more local retailers and higher
prices. Higher prices do not help the poor. If you want the owner of
the store you shop at to be from the metro area, go ahead and buy from
local retailers. But don't kid yourself that you're doing something
altruistic.
Cuppla comments:
There might be much sympathy for local-based businesses and such, but the
main reason for the DQ at Nawadaha and Minneheha Pkwy not getting the
drive-thru is much more pedestrian.
That Nawadaha DQ lies within the 1/2 mile radius of the 46th Street Transit
Station Area (TSA), and within that area, a Pedestrian Oriented Overlay
District (POD) has been applied. Both overlays are designed to get people
out of their cars. The TSA is to encourage folks to use public transit and
the more restrictive POD is to get people to walk, bicycle, ride horses, or
whatever. The POD specifically does not allow auto-related services such as
drive-thru's, gas stations or auto repair shops. If I recall correctly,
several years ago, some readers of this list were opposed to the drive-thru
because they feared increased traffic and predicted decreased pedestrian
safety.
(Don't even get me started on what I think of the POD and the attempt at
social engineering behind it.)
The other DQ at Minnehaha Pkwy and Cedar Ave closed because the owner, along
with the owner of the gas station next to it, felt that they couldn't afford
a proposed increase in the propoerty leases the landowner proposed. About
that time there was supposedly a developer that wanted to build a condo or
apartment tower on that location, but the owner of the funeral home to the
south wouldn't sell the property--needed for the new development. Perhaps
someone in SENA can remember the details better than I.
Doug Walter
Nokomis East Neighborhood Association (NENA)
That's funny...... I always figured we helped the poor by creating a
minimum wage (and soon to follow the "living wage"). Oh wait, that
does nothing for the poor overall, from an economic point of view, and
it ultimately hurts the economy. Nevermind.
I buy local when the local has something that I can't get elsewhere or
cheaper elsewhere (like many people). I get all my hardware from the
local Ace, even though the prices are higher than at Home Depot. I go
there because I get service..... something that is in very short
supply in Home Depot. But there's the rub..... we want lower prices,
but at what cost? We've discovered that lower prices on computers is
great..... though the price was lowered at the expense of reliability.
Again, reliability, being something not always equated with Walmart or
other big chains, may spur my decision to buy local. We can bemoan big
boxes all day, but in the end, they usually are cheaper. When I'm
being squeezed tax-wise the way I am in the city/state, I see buying
local solely for the purpose of buying local to be a form of charity
that falls in the "sorry, not at this time" category.
Let's also keep in mind this is an emotional argument and not fully
logical. We want to help others (it's Minnesota, remember) and we have
equated this to buying our ____________ from Jimmy instead of the
Walton family. That doesn't mean it's the most economical decision we
can make. We make such decisions daily (which much input, such as the
price of intangibles described in the paragraph above).
Mike Thompson
Windom
Quoting Anderson&Turpin <email obscured>>:
Michael Thompson: "That's funny...... I always figured we helped the poor by
creating a minimum wage (and soon to follow the "living wage"). Oh wait, that
does nothing for the poor overall, from an economic point of view, and it
ultimately hurts the economy. Nevermind."
Other than the sneering (not funny) attempt at whatever, I fail to see how
better wages, particularly living wages, do not help the poor. Certainly better
wages, via organized labor, helped create the wide band middle class we have,
the purpose of which was to lessen the possibility of revolts.
At 01:28 PM 10/22/2007, Doug Walter wrote:
>(Don't even get me started on what I think of the POD (Pedestrian
>Overlay District) and the attempt at
>social engineering behind it.)
This line of thinking always fascinates me. A Dairy Queen building a
drive-thru that may change the character of a neighborhood isn't
social engineering. Government saying that they can't build it there
is. (Unfettered Capitalism good. Regulation Bad).
I've also heard people call the train social engineering. They
always seem to imply that driving a car is a right endowed by the
creator. I'll never understand why the train is "social engineering"
and building roads isn't.
Also, by the original "unfettered capitalism" argument a strip mine
is a good thing, but regulating strip mines must be bad. For that
matter there's a big potential for geothermal energy out West that
we're wasting because the evil government decided to make it a national park.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think everything government does is good
- far from it. I'd prefer to see a system of participatory democracy
where the neighbors could, perhaps, get together and decide whether
or not it would be best for that DQ nearby to add a drive-thru rather
then government being this thing that's mostly far removed from
peoples' lives. I'm just always thrown by this (what I find bizarre)
idea that everything the supposed "free market" does is good.
Jim McGuire
Como
If a higher wage is the answer (getting more dollars into the hands of the
poor), then why not just increase the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Then
everyone would make $30,000 annually, and there would be no more poor. Of
course that's a ridiculous contention. But why is it any more ridiculous
than the notion that forcing a business to artificially pay more for a
commodity (yes, labor is a commodity) will somehow make the poor not so?
Many businesses cannot handle the financial pressure of the new tax on labor
(or the artificial price inflation, which ever one chooses to call it).
$7.25 an hour or $15 an hour? It's all a matter of where one draws the line.
Raising the minimum wage is a populist sales tactic that may deliver some
more income to some people, but overall it's affect is not the elixir of
income into the hands of people with low-skill jobs. It's a campaign
promise, not a legitimate tool of economic solvency for the poor. Let's
review: As many of us learned in Econ 101 can tell you, when something is
taxed (in this case, jobs) or the cost of something is increased
(artificially in the case of the minimum wage), we end up with less demand
for that thing. So, logically (and economically-speaking), higher cost of
labor, less labor. It's called supply and demand. In practical application,
raising the minimum wage has the effect of depriving the working poor of job
opportunities, often those who lack the skills to do anything other than the
most unskilled of labor. But, if we price entry-level labor higher than its
real value (which is what the minimum wage has the potential to do), jobs
will not be available for people whose skills are limited because those who
must purchase the commodity of labor cannot afford to do so. So, the minimum
wage may help some people, some time, but overall its effect is not one of
making the poor less so. We simply cannot tax some people into prosperity,
as much as many would like.
BTW, the higher minimum wage also puts strong upward pressure on the entire
wage structure, (which is the real reason that unions support it), but
that's another thread.
Mike Thompson
Windom
Sneering all the way.
We're probably getting way off-topic with this thread, but, for what it's worth: The minimum wage is a very poor tool for aiding the working poor. Not everyone earning the minimum wage is poor, and only 15% of the additional wages received by those earning the minimum wage goes to workers in poor families. A much more targeted tool for giving the working poor more money is the Earned Income Tax Credit, with nearly 60% of its benefits going to families below the poverty line. (Source: Congressional Budget Office report: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/77xx/doc7721/01-09-MinimumWageEITC.pdf) The problem with the Earned Income Tax Credit is that it's a cost to the government, which means that it would increase the deficit unless offset by spending cuts or revenue increases through higher taxes or fees. Raising the minimum wage, however, is not directly borne by the government, so it's easier to enact, politically. (The harm to the economy by the minimum wage is highly contested and, in the end, probably not much.) Jonathan Gaw Longfellow
Chris Johnson said:
"I have one small quibble with Wizard's remarks: I agree, independent grocers
cannot compete on price, and it's very difficult if impossible to compete on
variety. But they can easily surpass the big chains on quality."
I find this hard to believe. My parents ran a wholesale grocer, and I've
worked for 2 of the 3 biggest wholesale food distributors in the nation
(SuperValu & Nash-Finch, both headquartered in the Twin Cities), and have some
knowledge of the grocery distribution chain.
Nearly all of the 'small, independent grocers' get their food from one of the
large wholesalers, the same ones that supply CUB, Roundys/Rainbow, etc. (And
yes, even some of the co-ops.)
That's why I laugh when I overhear people saying things like "the produce at
Lunds is so much better than at CUB" -- it all comes from the same produce
warehouse in Hopkins, and may even be delivered on the same truck! (Back
around 1999, SuperValu changed the names on their trucks, because independent
stores like this didn't like having their customers see a delivery truck marked
"SuperValu" unloading at their store.)
On non-produce items, there is even less difference: a box of Quaker's oatmeal
is very much the same no matter what store you buy it at. Or the bulk oatmeal
that you scoop out of a tub, too.
It's very difficult for a small, independent grocer to compete on cost or on
product selection or quality any more. They have to differentiate themselves
on non-product features, like convenience, service, and presentation. That's
why you see them stressing convenient locations & fast in-out times, or their
friendly personalized service, clean stores, etc. (It's also why most of the
successful small grocers are family-owned & operated -- they need the
attentiveness of owner-workers to keep that service orientation. A big CUB, or
a tiny Quick-Mart can operate according to a formula, and get by with
it's-just-a-job hourly workers.)
Tim Bonham: I think the problem is that you and I are defining the "big chain" and "independent" grocers differently. Cub and Safeway and the really huge discount chains like that do not even carry the products I want, to the best of my knowledge. Can one buy Cedar Summit Farms milks and ice cream at Cub? I don't think so. Note also, I include stores like Lunds and Byerlys in the local and independent categories. They're locally owned and carry a higher variety of locally produced items, e.g. Cedar Summit. Actually, there are some locally-owned franchises of chains, like Cooper's New Market in downtown Chaska which are responsive to local desires for local products. Laslty, I said "most" of what the big chains carry is junk: "most" does not mean "all." It's much easier to find what I want when 90% of the stuff on the shelf is of the quality I might want, then when it's 1% of the products on the shelf in a mega-store. Mike Thompson wrote: "Let's also keep in mind this is an emotional argument and not fully logical. We want to help others (it's Minnesota, remember) and we have equated this to buying our ____________ from Jimmy instead of the Walton family. That doesn't mean it's the most economical decision we can make." No, this is common misconception and an ignorance of economic activity. It is a fact that spending money with businesses which are locally-owned generates more local economic activity than spending it with a chain owned by a remote corporation. My decision to buy locally is purely logical, based on a desire to improve the local economy over the long haul. When I buy hardware from my corner hardware store, the owner and his family benefit. They turn around and spend that money in the community. If I by that same hardware from Wal-Mart, most of the profit goes right into the pockets of the owners of that company, which means into the pockets of half a dozen Walton-family members. I would rather Gary Cooper and family of Chaska, and Mark Settergren and family of Minneapolis get the profits from my spending, because I know they spend their money in the local economy. Interestingly, they also provide better service. A quote from the economic study done in San Francisco: "A slight shift in consumer purchasing behavior -- diverting just 10% of purchases from national chain stores to locally owned businesses – would, each year, create 1,300 new jobs and yield nearly $200 million in incremental economic activity." That's the kind of benefit I want to see come to Minneapolis. References: * http://www.newrules.org/retail/news_archive.php?browseby=slug&slugid=150 * http://www.bigboxtoolkit.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=52 * http://www.cdtoolbox.net/economic_development/000149.html * http://www.extension.iastate.edu/communities/news/ComCon67.html
Chris Johnson said:
"Can one buy Cedar Summit Farms milks and ice cream at Cub? I don't think so."
Yes, you can, at least at the Lake St. Cub. It's not in the big ice cream
freezer, but in a small waist-high one across the aisle, next to the frozen
pizza aisle. I've tried it (some interesting flavors), but don't buy it
regularly.
Chris Johnson said:
"Note also, I include stores like Lunds and Byerlys in the local and
independent categories. They're locally owned and carry a higher variety of
locally produced items, e.g. Cedar Summit."
Well, not really. They aren't two separate chains, you know -- Byerlys owns
Lunds, just keeps them operating under the Lunds name. (Byerlys bought Lunds
several years back, when the Lunds heir was rather preoccupied with defending
himself for murdering his wife/ex-wife.) The purchase deal was actually
negotiated in the Board Room at SuperValu headquarters.
And SuperValu financed the deal, by loaning Byerlys the money needed. So while
you could say Lunds/Byerlys are independent, SuperValu is such a major creditor
that they could exert a lot of control if they wanted to. (They don't, because
Lunds/Byerlys is doing fine on their own.)
On variety, Lunds/Byerlys do carry more items than a Cub store. But they all
come from SuperValu warehouses. The Cub store could order that same variety of
items if they wanted. They don't, because that isn't their target market. Cub
aims at lower variety/high volume/low prices. Lunds/Byerlys has a different
target market, and serving that involves carrying a larger variety of items.
Tim Bonham said: "Well, not really. They aren't two separate chains, you know -- Byerlys owns Lunds, just keeps them operating under the Lunds name. (Byerlys bought Lunds several years back, when the Lunds heir was rather preoccupied with defending himself for murdering his wife/ex-wife.)" While this is starting to veer off-Mpls related, both Russell Lund Sr. and Russell Lund Jr. both passed in 1992. Russell Jr. took his own life on Halloween, less than two months after the murder while awaiting a trial date. The merger took place in 1997. http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Lund-Food-Holdings-Inc-Company-History.html Brigid Volk Fridley formerly of Nicollet Island
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