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There are 49 posts — by 26 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Bruce Leier at 2007 Nov 20 18:10 UTC

From: Michael Cavlan Date: 2007 Nov 13 14:20 UTC Short link

Please be aware that this Friday Nov 16th Impeach For Peace will be at City
Hall in Minneapolis, promoting Impeachment.

Later the same day Youth Against War and Racism will have a student lead
walkout,
in opposition to the war on Iraq.

Questions, call me at (612)327-6902

Michael Cavlan
Powderhorn

Details for needed Peace Marshall's below


Be a PEACE MARSHAL for the
Antiwar Student WALKOUT, this Friday, Nov.16
*** Adults needed to help prevent police repression!
*** Please RSVP to <email obscured> with your name, phone number, and
group
affiliation (if any) if you can be a Peace Marshal.
*** Attend a Peace Marshal training, if possible, this Tuesday or Wednesday, at
6pm (details below).

Pre-Rally Peace Marshal Orientation, Friday, 12 Noon
at Government Plaza (5th St. and 4th Ave, downtown Minneapolis)

*** Youth Peace Marshals also needed! - Arrive with your school contingent,
then
register as a PM volunteer at the YAWR table.
*** Please forward this email to others who can help!
*** More info on walkout at: http://myspace.com/yawrMN

Youth Against War & Racism has high hopes for turnout at the November 16th
antiwar
walkout rally and march. We are now in touch with students from over 30 high
schools
who are mobilizing for the walkout, and we expect participation from many more,
including many colleges, across the metro region. Among the many inspiring
stories
from the walkout mobilization comes from small town Foley High, an hour and a
half
outside Minneapolis, where a new chapter of YAWR recently succeeded in pushing
military
recruiters out of their lunchroom, and are now raising money for a school bus
to
take to the walkout!

Across the region, students will be walking out of school at Noon (or earlier)
on
November 16th, and gathering for a 1pm rally at Government Plaza in downtown
Minneapolis
(5th St. & 4th Ave.). From there we will march to Augsburg College for a "mass
indoor antiwar extravaganza" featuring film, spoken word, music, and speeches.

*** Peace Marshals **VERY** IMPORTANT
YAWR aims to organize a team of Peace Marshals to ensure safe, inspirational,
and
educational rally and march, which will bring hundreds (maybe thousands!?!)
into
antiwar action for the first time. We aim to avoid any confrontations with the
police
or others.

However, the experience of student antiwar activists over the last several
years
with the police has not been great. While larger IPAC marches are allowed to
take
the streets without problems, police have sometimes tried to block more
youthful
antiwar marches. At the last student walkout in April 2006 several youth
decided
to throw red paint on a military recruitment station window (against the
objections
of YAWR Peace Marshals). The police responded by rushing the students with
police
horses and violently arrested three young women (including a 14 year old) who
had
nothing to do with the paint throwing.

This experience underlines the crucial importance of Peace Marshals to prevent
similar
situations developing. However, adult Peace Marshals are particularly important
because police will tend to be more hesitant to attack adults. Having said
that,
we will be in communication with the police and city officials, and we are
optimistic
our march will go smoothly.


Peace Marshal TRAINING (Tues. & Wed.)
*** Tuesday, Nov. 13
6:00pm - 7:00pm
University of Minnesota
Coffman Student Union Rm. 302
*** Wednesday, Nov. 14
6:00pm - 7:00pm
Mayday Bookstore
301 3rd Ave S, Minneapolis
(West Bank, below the Hub Bike Co-op

From: Kevin Wynn Date: 2007 Nov 13 15:56 UTC Short link

Encouraging high school students, minors, to leave school
to attend this protest?  What an incredibly bad idea!  I
hope no children are injured.  This is really stupid.

From: Jennifer Rubenzer Date: 2007 Nov 13 16:08 UTC Short link

Kevin is spot on with this one -- it's a bad idea.  Where will their parents
be?

If the parents agree with the YAWR stance, they should go to the school and
pick their kids up and be responsible for open and active communication
about the topic.  If the parents do not excuse their children from school,
the organizers should be charged with contributing to the delinquency of
minors.

This has nothing to do with impeachment and anti-war protesting, its simple
right and wrong.  Here's a Minneapolis related question: will truancy
officers step in?

Jenny

           Jennifer Rubenzer, Maple Grove

From: Tom Madden Date: 2007 Nov 13 16:20 UTC Short link

I have similar thoughts to what Kevin wrote.   I suspect, as I did
when I was in high school, many will protest because they can get out
of school rather than actually knowing about what they are supporting
through protest.

If you really want supporters to protest with you, have it take place
after school.   Green Party Mike, I encourage you to take this offer
for kids off the table and instead, organize a group of students to
take the issue on in depth after school and encourage them to round
up their peers for a debate or discussion on the topic.  That would
be useful student solution to your overall goal while not interfering
with our overall goal of educating all kids.

Respectfully,

Tom Madden
Live Lowry Hill
Work Longfellow
(and a school board member)

From: Charley Underwood Date: 2007 Nov 13 18:00 UTC Short link

Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students, minors, to leave school and
attend this protest?  What an incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children are
injured."

I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening our Minneapolis schools
to those who encourage children, minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway
place where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their presence with
such force that many of our children end up dead and many more end up wounded
for life, where they witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or medication.

If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website (http://www.yawr.org), you
will find that many of their efforts are against the pervasive military
recruitment in out public schools.

So I ask you two questions:

First, which do you think is the more dangerous situation, protesting on the
streets of Minneapolis or attacking the streets of Fallujah?

Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved in both activities.  Let
us further assume that the brave individual will sometimes need to take risks
in order to protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that Friday's
protest is very much designed to protect our freedoms?  Or do you truly believe
that our freedoms are only protected by killing those who disagree with our
foreign policy?

I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad happens to them at the
hands of our local gendarmes.  But I truly believe that much, much worse will
be happening to our children if we strip them of their freedoms, squelch their
dissent and punish them for recognizing the horrible cancer of war that is
growing within us.

From: Michael Cavlan Date: 2007 Nov 13 18:12 UTC Short link

First of All

I am not encouraging these brave kids from Youth Against War and Racism in
this. These kids came up with this themselves. I am proudly supporting them
though and plan to be a Peace Marshall in case there are any "incidents" with
Minneapolis PD or others. I also support them in their attempt to highlight
their outrage with the occupation on Iraq and build up to war on Iran. They
seem to care just a wee bit more about these things than say, some white,
upper-middle class, privileged, comfortable group of say bicyclists against
global warming. Their participation in the political process is to be
applauded.

Now, my son Sean was involved in the last school walk out and I am very proud
of him for this. Most of the kids shall be getting written permission from
their parents. So please "snitch" away as they will have their parents written
permission to attend this event and attempt to engage in the political process.
I know that Sean has my full, unconditional support as will the friends that he
will bring with him, if he so chooses to go.

As for the Impeach For Peace in Minneapolis City Council, well since the
Kucinich Bill HR 799, calling for the Impeachment of Cheney has been sent to
committee and appears about to languish in much the same way as HR 333 has,
apparently at the behest of the Democratic Party leadership, we in Impeach For
Peace have switched gears to Plan B. That means, time to go local and start the
process of creating the political pressure and will for Impeachment. There are
other aspects to this that you all will be hearing about in the very near
future. For now, know that we are targeting Minneapolis City Council and the
elected officials to pass a Resolution calling for Impeachment.

Know this, part of the thought process that we are undergoing is this. Any
elected official who does not actively support Impeachment and by extension
their duty to protect the Constitution and Bill of Rights shall be targeted. We
shall frame it thus. If you do not actively support and work for Impeachment,
then your lack of action (and spine) shall be evidence of your willingness to
protect the Bush Administration and by extension unwillingness to uphold your
sworn oath to protect and defend the Constitution.

I can assure you that many are sick and tired of the cowardice of our elected
officials and of so many "liberals" and pseudo-progressives. Enjoy your bike
ride. Meanwhile, some of us have work to do on global warming, the Occupation
of Iraq, Impeachment etc etc.

Michael Cavlan
Proud Father
Powderhorn

From: Jennifer Rubenzer Date: 2007 Nov 13 18:15 UTC Short link

Because of what you oppose (our military), you have the honor and right to
believe and give voice to your opinions.  You've taken a big chunk out of
the hand that feeds you.

Now, if we were talking about adults leaving school, as we are taking about
adults or children with parental consent joining the armed forces, we'd have
an apples-to-apples comparison.  Recruiters making themselves available for
discussion during school hours, gives anti-war youth an opportunity to
discuss and disagree first-hand and youth looking for opportunities in our
armed forces a chance to speak to a recruiter.  Its not a one-sided thing.

When I was in school, my recruiter visited my home and spoke with my mother
and I.  Are the adults involved in the YAWR movement being that respectful
of parental rights?  Of course not!

Let's not forget we're talking about CHILDREN.  I would defer to the parents
of those involved with the YAWR group for their thoughts.  Do we have any
here?

Jennifer Rubenzer

-----Original Message-----
From: Charley Underwood <email obscured>]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:03 PM
To: Minneapolis Issues Forum
Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment

Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students, minors, to leave school
and attend this protest?  What an incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children
are injured."

I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening our Minneapolis
schools to those who encourage children, minors, to take up arms and fight
in a faraway place where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
presence with such force that many of our children end up dead and many more
end up wounded for life, where they witness scenes of death and ugliness so
profound that the nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
medication.

If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website (http://www.yawr.org),
you will find that many of their efforts are against the pervasive military
recruitment in out public schools.

So I ask you two questions:

First, which do you think is the more dangerous situation, protesting on the
streets of Minneapolis or attacking the streets of Fallujah?

Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved in both activities.
Let us further assume that the brave individual will sometimes need to take
risks in order to protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that
Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our freedoms?  Or do you
truly believe that our freedoms are only protected by killing those who
disagree with our foreign policy?

I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad happens to them at the
hands of our local gendarmes.  But I truly believe that much, much worse
will be happening to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the horrible cancer of
war that is growing within us.

Charley Underwood
Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
Info about Charley Underwood:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood

This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
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From: Ed Felien Date: 2007 Nov 13 18:28 UTC Short link

Please forgive a personal reminiscence from an old radical.

When I was in the eighth grade at Folwell Junior High School in 1952 or '53, a
group of us were upset with the penny movie that we were all supposed to attend
after lunch.  It was a cheesy "Johnny Weissmuller is Tarzan" epic.  Some of us
talked it over and decided we should boycott the movie.  Since I was in charge
of stacking trays at one of the bussing stations, I could talk to a lot of the
students.  The guys at the other stations were in on it too, so we told
everyone that tomorrow we would all stay in the cafeteria and not go to the
movie.  Somehow, it worked.  No one told the teachers or principals and we all
just stayed in the cafeteria.  The assistant principal went nuts.  We were
perfectly well behaved, reading school books or talking to friends, but he was
running around blowing his whistle, and, then, he ordered everyone back to
their third period classes.  I didn't realize it at the time, but I'd witnessed
my first police riot.

Two things about the Student Walkout:  First, Green Party Mike isn't organizing
the event.  It's being organized by students.  It's patronizing to think
students couldn't come up with the idea themselves.  Second, it would be a
mistake for authorities to over-react to the event, although it would be
amusing to see assistant principals running around ordering students back to
the their third period classes.

My student boycott changed my life.  We won.  They changed the movie.  I came
to believe if people talked it over and organized they could change the world.
My experience taught me a lot.  I'm glad I didn't let school interfere with my
education.

Ed Felien
Powderhorn

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Madden

I have similar thoughts to what Kevin wrote.   I suspect, as I did
when I was in high school, many will protest because they can get out
of school rather than actually knowing about what they are supporting
through protest.

If you really want supporters to protest with you, have it take place
after school.   Green Party Mike, I encourage you to take this offer
for kids off the table and instead, organize a group of students to
take the issue on in depth after school and encourage them to round
up their peers for a debate or discussion on the topic.  That would
be useful student solution to your overall goal while not interfering
with our overall goal of educating all kids.

Respectfully,

Tom Madden
Live Lowry Hill
Work Longfellow
(and a school board member)

On Nov 13, 2007, at 9:55 AM, Kevin Wynn wrote:

> Encouraging high school students, minors, to leave school
> to attend this protest?  What an incredibly bad idea!  I
> hope no children are injured.  This is really stupid.
> --
>
>
> Kevin Wynn, Dad
> Minneapolis, MN
> 2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
> Northern Bikers for Global Warming
>
> Kevin Wynn
> Audubon Park, NE Minneapolis
> Info about Kevin Wynn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/
> kevinwynn

Tom Madden
Lowry Hill, Minneapolis
Info about Tom Madden: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tommadden

This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3ojarZUCXgTsf6uOQVDI6x
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 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
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2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.

From: Kevin Wynn Date: 2007 Nov 13 18:31 UTC Short link

I don't find recruiting objectionable.  Nor would you if
you supported the military actions we are involved in.
 Just because one is opposed to the war in Iraq does not
mean we do not a strong military.  Just because we are not
defending our borders does not mean we are not protecting
our country.

In fact, I have serious regrets that I did not serve in
the military or in some similar capacity when I was
younger.  I will not discourage my children from talking
to recruiters and serving our country if they choose to do
so.

What I see here is an effort to recruit youth into the
anti-whatever activist movement.  Create little protesters
who can grow up into big protesters.

In this respect Cavlan and his ilk are no better, and
maybe worse, than military recruiters.

You'll not find any support from me with your arguments
Charley.  The kids should be in school.

--


Kevin Wynn, Dad
Minneapolis, MN
2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
Northern Bikers for Global Warming


On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:01 +1300 (NZDT)
  "Charley Underwood" <email obscured>>
wrote:
> Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students,
>minors, to leave school and attend this protest?  What an
>incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children are injured."
>
> I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening
>our Minneapolis schools to those who encourage children,
>minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway place
>where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
>presence with such force that many of our children end up
>dead and many more end up wounded for life, where they
>witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
>nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
>medication.
>
> If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website
>(http://www.yawr.org), you will find that many of their
>efforts are against the pervasive military recruitment in
>out public schools.
>
> So I ask you two questions:
>
>First, which do you think is the more dangerous
>situation, protesting on the streets of Minneapolis or
>attacking the streets of Fallujah?
>
> Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved
>in both activities.  Let us further assume that the brave
>individual will sometimes need to take risks in order to
>protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that
>Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our
>freedoms?  Or do you truly believe that our freedoms are
>only protected by killing those who disagree with our
>foreign policy?
>
> I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad
>happens to them at the hands of our local gendarmes.  But
>I truly believe that much, much worse will be happening
>to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
>squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the
>horrible cancer of war that is growing within us.
>
> Charley Underwood
> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
> Info about Charley Underwood:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
> -----------------------------------------
>  To post, send your message to:
<email obscured>
>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or
>"digest on,"
>  in subject line and send to:
<email obscured>
>
>  More info about Minneapolis Issues Forum:
>  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>  E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at
>http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at
>http://e-democracy.org/rules.
>   If you think a member is in violation, contact the
>forum manager at
>   <email obscured> before continuing it on the
>list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>

From: Jeane Moore Date: 2007 Nov 13 19:07 UTC Short link

Thank you, Ed, for this wonderful story.

Jeane Moore

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:33:10 -0600, you wrote:

>Please forgive a personal reminiscence from an old radical.
>
>When I was in the eighth grade at Folwell Junior High School in 1952 or '53, a
group of us were upset with the penny movie that we were all supposed to attend
after lunch.  It was a cheesy "Johnny Weissmuller is Tarzan" epic.  Some of us
talked it over and decided we should boycott the movie.  Since I was in charge
of stacking trays at one of the bussing stations, I could talk to a lot of the
students.  The guys at the other stations were in on it too, so we told
everyone that tomorrow we would all stay in the cafeteria and not go to the
movie.  Somehow, it worked.  No one told the teachers or principals and we all
just stayed in the cafeteria.  The assistant principal went nuts.  We were
perfectly well behaved, reading school books or talking to friends, but he was
running around blowing his whistle, and, then, he ordered everyone back to
their third period classes.  I didn't realize it at the time, but I'd witnessed
my first police riot.
>
>Two things about the Student Walkout:  First, Green Party Mike isn't
organizing the event.  It's being organized by students.  It's patronizing to
think students couldn't come up with the idea themselves.  Second, it would be
a mistake for authorities to over-react to the event, although it would be
amusing to see assistant principals running around ordering students back to
the their third period classes.
>
>My student boycott changed my life.  We won.  They changed the movie.  I came
to believe if people talked it over and organized they could change the world.
My experience taught me a lot.  I'm glad I didn't let school interfere with my
education.

From: Steve Kotvis Date: 2007 Nov 14 03:03 UTC Short link

I have contacted our high school principal about this. This is not a school
sanctioned activity. Without a note or call from home to the school, a
student leaving school for this is an unexcused absence.

From: Michael Thompson Date: 2007 Nov 14 13:58 UTC Short link

Like others, I'm with Kevin Wynn here.

A kids job is to go to school. All else, to include jobs and sports
and activism, are extras. When one of the extras impacts going to
school, then something is wrong. These kids are truants, regardless of
the notes they get from their parents.

As for the recruiters: they have a right to be in school as much as
anybody. Ed Felien chastises us for assuming that the students
couldn't come up with such a march idea on their own. But are not the
same students capable of rejecting a message from a prospective
employer with as much resolve? Banning recruiters, which is the
ultimate aim, is the typical liberal strategy: ban something we don't
like under the cloak of righteousness. Bans are in, often promoted by
people considering themselves free-thinkers (though bans are as
repressive a public policy tool as we have, but that's another
thread). Anyway, I would think that students who are so inspired and
enlightened as to take to the streets during school would have no
problem rejecting the message of military recruiters, and encouraging
their peers to do the same. without being threatened by their presence
in their school.

And I sincerely hope that the students choosing truancy today realize
that military recruiters play a large role in their ability to
"march." The military, staffed through the work of recruiters,
ultimately protects their ability to assemble and speak. I have little
doubt that that is a lesson lost in the zeal to look all liberal and
trendy and neat-o, all whilst skipping class.

And impeachment? Bush and Cheney won, folks. I didn't vote for them,
either. But please consider getting over it. If the impeachment folks
put as much effort into doing something tangible like adopting a
highway or patrolling a  neighborhood or painting Dyna Sluyter's
house, things might actually begin to change, perhaps quickly. And Mr.
Cavlan's logic and commentary regarding elected is quite Bushesque: if
you're not against 'em, you're for 'em.

We're going down the tubes.

Mike Thompson
Windom



Quoting Kevin Wynn <email obscured>>:

> I don't find recruiting objectionable.  Nor would you if
> you supported the military actions we are involved in.
>  Just because one is opposed to the war in Iraq does not
> mean we do not a strong military.  Just because we are not
> defending our borders does not mean we are not protecting
> our country.
>
> In fact, I have serious regrets that I did not serve in
> the military or in some similar capacity when I was
> younger.  I will not discourage my children from talking
> to recruiters and serving our country if they choose to do
> so.
>
> What I see here is an effort to recruit youth into the
> anti-whatever activist movement.  Create little protesters
> who can grow up into big protesters.
>
> In this respect Cavlan and his ilk are no better, and
> maybe worse, than military recruiters.
>
> You'll not find any support from me with your arguments
> Charley.  The kids should be in school.
> --
>
>
> Kevin Wynn, Dad
> Minneapolis, MN
> 2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
> Northern Bikers for Global Warming
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:01 +1300 (NZDT)
>   "Charley Underwood" <email obscured>>
> wrote:
>> Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students,
>> minors, to leave school and attend this protest?  What an
>> incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children are injured."
>>
>> I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening
>> our Minneapolis schools to those who encourage children,
>> minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway place
>> where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
>> presence with such force that many of our children end up
>> dead and many more end up wounded for life, where they
>> witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
>> nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
>> medication.
>>
>> If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website
>> (http://www.yawr.org), you will find that many of their
>> efforts are against the pervasive military recruitment in
>> out public schools.
>>
>> So I ask you two questions:
>>
>> First, which do you think is the more dangerous
>> situation, protesting on the streets of Minneapolis or
>> attacking the streets of Fallujah?
>>
>> Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved
>> in both activities.  Let us further assume that the brave
>> individual will sometimes need to take risks in order to
>> protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that
>> Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our
>> freedoms?  Or do you truly believe that our freedoms are
>> only protected by killing those who disagree with our
>> foreign policy?
>>
>> I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad
>> happens to them at the hands of our local gendarmes.  But
>> I truly believe that much, much worse will be happening
>> to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
>> squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the
>> horrible cancer of war that is growing within us.
>>
>> Charley Underwood
>> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
>> Info about Charley Underwood:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood
>>
>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
>> -----------------------------------------
>>  To post, send your message to:
>> <email obscured>
>>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or
>> "digest on,"
>>  in subject line and send to:
>> <email obscured>
>>
>>  More info about Minneapolis Issues Forum:
>>  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>>
>>  E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at
>> http://OnlineGroups.Net
>>
>> 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at
>> http://e-democracy.org/rules.
>>   If you think a member is in violation, contact the
>> forum manager at
>>   <email obscured> before continuing it on the
>> list.
>>
>> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>>
>
> Kevin Wynn
> Audubon Park, NE Minneapolis
> Info about Kevin Wynn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/kevinwynn
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From: Steve Kotvis Date: 2007 Nov 14 14:06 UTC Short link

It's my belief that impeachment is not about who won or lost. It's about if
our administration (I didn't vote for them either, but since they won, it is
"ours") is breaking the law of the land, and that they are not above it.
Because someone won doesn't give them the right to break our laws. Separate
issues in my book.

________________________
Steve Kotvis
Kenwood Minneapolis


> From: <email obscured>>
> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:57:49 -0600
> To: <email obscured>>
> Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
>
> Like others, I'm with Kevin Wynn here.
>
> A kids job is to go to school. All else, to include jobs and sports
> and activism, are extras. When one of the extras impacts going to
> school, then something is wrong. These kids are truants, regardless of
> the notes they get from their parents.
>
> As for the recruiters: they have a right to be in school as much as
> anybody. Ed Felien chastises us for assuming that the students
> couldn't come up with such a march idea on their own. But are not the
> same students capable of rejecting a message from a prospective
> employer with as much resolve? Banning recruiters, which is the
> ultimate aim, is the typical liberal strategy: ban something we don't
> like under the cloak of righteousness. Bans are in, often promoted by
> people considering themselves free-thinkers (though bans are as
> repressive a public policy tool as we have, but that's another
> thread). Anyway, I would think that students who are so inspired and
> enlightened as to take to the streets during school would have no
> problem rejecting the message of military recruiters, and encouraging
> their peers to do the same. without being threatened by their presence
> in their school.
>
> And I sincerely hope that the students choosing truancy today realize
> that military recruiters play a large role in their ability to
> "march." The military, staffed through the work of recruiters,
> ultimately protects their ability to assemble and speak. I have little
> doubt that that is a lesson lost in the zeal to look all liberal and
> trendy and neat-o, all whilst skipping class.
>
> And impeachment? Bush and Cheney won, folks. I didn't vote for them,
> either. But please consider getting over it. If the impeachment folks
> put as much effort into doing something tangible like adopting a
> highway or patrolling a  neighborhood or painting Dyna Sluyter's
> house, things might actually begin to change, perhaps quickly. And Mr.
> Cavlan's logic and commentary regarding elected is quite Bushesque: if
> you're not against 'em, you're for 'em.
>
> We're going down the tubes.
>
> Mike Thompson
> Windom
>
>
>
> Quoting Kevin Wynn <email obscured>>:
>
>> I don't find recruiting objectionable.  Nor would you if
>> you supported the military actions we are involved in.
>>  Just because one is opposed to the war in Iraq does not
>> mean we do not a strong military.  Just because we are not
>> defending our borders does not mean we are not protecting
>> our country.
>>
>> In fact, I have serious regrets that I did not serve in
>> the military or in some similar capacity when I was
>> younger.  I will not discourage my children from talking
>> to recruiters and serving our country if they choose to do
>> so.
>>
>> What I see here is an effort to recruit youth into the
>> anti-whatever activist movement.  Create little protesters
>> who can grow up into big protesters.
>>
>> In this respect Cavlan and his ilk are no better, and
>> maybe worse, than military recruiters.
>>
>> You'll not find any support from me with your arguments
>> Charley.  The kids should be in school.
>> --
>>
>>
>> Kevin Wynn, Dad
>> Minneapolis, MN
>> 2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
>> Northern Bikers for Global Warming
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:01 +1300 (NZDT)
>>   "Charley Underwood" <email obscured>>
>> wrote:
>>> Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students,
>>> minors, to leave school and attend this protest?  What an
>>> incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children are injured."
>>>
>>> I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening
>>> our Minneapolis schools to those who encourage children,
>>> minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway place
>>> where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
>>> presence with such force that many of our children end up
>>> dead and many more end up wounded for life, where they
>>> witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
>>> nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
>>> medication.
>>>
>>> If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website
>>> (http://www.yawr.org), you will find that many of their
>>> efforts are against the pervasive military recruitment in
>>> out public schools.
>>>
>>> So I ask you two questions:
>>>
>>> First, which do you think is the more dangerous
>>> situation, protesting on the streets of Minneapolis or
>>> attacking the streets of Fallujah?
>>>
>>> Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved
>>> in both activities.  Let us further assume that the brave
>>> individual will sometimes need to take risks in order to
>>> protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that
>>> Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our
>>> freedoms?  Or do you truly believe that our freedoms are
>>> only protected by killing those who disagree with our
>>> foreign policy?
>>>
>>> I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad
>>> happens to them at the hands of our local gendarmes.  But
>>> I truly believe that much, much worse will be happening
>>> to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
>>> squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the
>>> horrible cancer of war that is growing within us.
>>>
>>> Charley Underwood
>>> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
>>> Info about Charley Underwood:
>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood
>>>
>>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>  To post, send your message to:
>>> <email obscured>
>>>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or
>>> "digest on,"
>>>  in subject line and send to:
>>> <email obscured>
>>>
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>>>  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>>>
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>>> -----------------------------------------
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>>> http://OnlineGroups.Net
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>>> forum manager at
>>>   <email obscured> before continuing it on the
>>> list.
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>>>
>>
>> Kevin Wynn
>> Audubon Park, NE Minneapolis
>> Info about Kevin Wynn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/kevinwynn
>>
>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4TW6yKE4GAIesDHqBYhD8L
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>>
>
>
>
>
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>
> Michael Thompson
> Windom, Minneapolis
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From: Joe Nathan Date: 2007 Nov 14 14:26 UTC Short link

Not wanting to be difficult, I think part of what a young person needs
to learn is how to make thoughtful, informed decisions.  Another thing a
young person needs to learn is how to be an active, constructive,
involved citizen.  And a third thing that a student needs to learn (this
is not a complete list) is how to think carefully about the consequences
of her/his actions.

I can imagine a high school student doing all of the above and
concluding that the most important thing for her/him to do on a
particular day, at a particular time, is to join with others outside of
a school building, and challenging the Iraq war.  I can also an imagine
a young person doing all of the above and deciding there are other ways
to challenge the Iraq war (or being involved in another important issue)
that do not require leaving a school building during the day.

Hopefully, a student will have discussed these issues with her/his
parent(s) or guardians.  But sometimes there is significant
intergenerational conflict.  (Having participated in a variety of civil
rights and Vietnam era protests, I have seen how this played out in my
own family, and in families of good friends.  David Halberstram wrote a
marvelous book called "The Children."  One of the key themes of this
powerful presentation about civil rights struggles in Nashville
Tennessee was the conflict between college students, their families and
the colleges that they attended.  Students felt a strong need to protest
and challenge.  Their parents and colleges often vigorously opposed
their efforts.  Fortunately the students, with great courage,
persisted.  They thought carefully about the consequences of their
actions, and spoke out for civil rights that too often we now take for
granted.

We should not always equate schooling and learning.  There is a lot to
be learned  and accomplished outside a school building (whether at the
k-12, or higher ed level).

Sincerely

Joe Nathan
Center for School Change
Humphrey Institute
University of Minnesota

Steve Kotvis wrote:
> It's my belief that impeachment is not about who won or lost. It's about if
> our administration (I didn't vote for them either, but since they won, it is
> "ours") is breaking the law of the land, and that they are not above it.
> Because someone won doesn't give them the right to break our laws. Separate
> issues in my book.
> ________________________
> Steve Kotvis
> Kenwood Minneapolis
>
>
>
>> From: <email obscured>>
>> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:57:49 -0600
>> To: <email obscured>>
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
>>
>> Like others, I'm with Kevin Wynn here.
>>
>> A kids job is to go to school. All else, to include jobs and sports
>> and activism, are extras. When one of the extras impacts going to
>> school, then something is wrong. These kids are truants, regardless of
>> the notes they get from their parents.
>>
>> As for the recruiters: they have a right to be in school as much as
>> anybody. Ed Felien chastises us for assuming that the students
>> couldn't come up with such a march idea on their own. But are not the
>> same students capable of rejecting a message from a prospective
>> employer with as much resolve? Banning recruiters, which is the
>> ultimate aim, is the typical liberal strategy: ban something we don't
>> like under the cloak of righteousness. Bans are in, often promoted by
>> people considering themselves free-thinkers (though bans are as
>> repressive a public policy tool as we have, but that's another
>> thread). Anyway, I would think that students who are so inspired and
>> enlightened as to take to the streets during school would have no
>> problem rejecting the message of military recruiters, and encouraging
>> their peers to do the same. without being threatened by their presence
>> in their school.
>>
>> And I sincerely hope that the students choosing truancy today realize
>> that military recruiters play a large role in their ability to
>> "march." The military, staffed through the work of recruiters,
>> ultimately protects their ability to assemble and speak. I have little
>> doubt that that is a lesson lost in the zeal to look all liberal and
>> trendy and neat-o, all whilst skipping class.
>>
>> And impeachment? Bush and Cheney won, folks. I didn't vote for them,
>> either. But please consider getting over it. If the impeachment folks
>> put as much effort into doing something tangible like adopting a
>> highway or patrolling a  neighborhood or painting Dyna Sluyter's
>> house, things might actually begin to change, perhaps quickly. And Mr.
>> Cavlan's logic and commentary regarding elected is quite Bushesque: if
>> you're not against 'em, you're for 'em.
>>
>> We're going down the tubes.
>>
>> Mike Thompson
>> Windom
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Kevin Wynn <email obscured>>:
>>
>>
>>> I don't find recruiting objectionable.  Nor would you if
>>> you supported the military actions we are involved in.
>>>  Just because one is opposed to the war in Iraq does not
>>> mean we do not a strong military.  Just because we are not
>>> defending our borders does not mean we are not protecting
>>> our country.
>>>
>>> In fact, I have serious regrets that I did not serve in
>>> the military or in some similar capacity when I was
>>> younger.  I will not discourage my children from talking
>>> to recruiters and serving our country if they choose to do
>>> so.
>>>
>>> What I see here is an effort to recruit youth into the
>>> anti-whatever activist movement.  Create little protesters
>>> who can grow up into big protesters.
>>>
>>> In this respect Cavlan and his ilk are no better, and
>>> maybe worse, than military recruiters.
>>>
>>> You'll not find any support from me with your arguments
>>> Charley.  The kids should be in school.
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin Wynn, Dad
>>> Minneapolis, MN
>>> 2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
>>> Northern Bikers for Global Warming
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:01 +1300 (NZDT)
>>>   "Charley Underwood" <email obscured>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students,
>>>> minors, to leave school and attend this protest?  What an
>>>> incredibly bad idea!  I hope no children are injured."
>>>>
>>>> I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening
>>>> our Minneapolis schools to those who encourage children,
>>>> minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway place
>>>> where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
>>>> presence with such force that many of our children end up
>>>> dead and many more end up wounded for life, where they
>>>> witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
>>>> nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
>>>> medication.
>>>>
>>>> If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website
>>>> (http://www.yawr.org), you will find that many of their
>>>> efforts are against the pervasive military recruitment in
>>>> out public schools.
>>>>
>>>> So I ask you two questions:
>>>>
>>>> First, which do you think is the more dangerous
>>>> situation, protesting on the streets of Minneapolis or
>>>> attacking the streets of Fallujah?
>>>>
>>>> Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved
>>>> in both activities.  Let us further assume that the brave
>>>> individual will sometimes need to take risks in order to
>>>> protest all of our freedoms.  Don't you believe that
>>>> Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our
>>>> freedoms?  Or do you truly believe that our freedoms are
>>>> only protected by killing those who disagree with our
>>>> foreign policy?
>>>>
>>>> I salute these idealistic youth.  I hope nothing bad
>>>> happens to them at the hands of our local gendarmes.  But
>>>> I truly believe that much, much worse will be happening
>>>> to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
>>>> squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the
>>>> horrible cancer of war that is growing within us.
>>>>
>>>> Charley Underwood
>>>> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
>>>> Info about Charley Underwood:
>>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood
>>>>
>>>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>>  To post, send your message to:
>>>> <email obscured>
>>>>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or
>>>> "digest on,"
>>>>  in subject line and send to:
>>>> <email obscured>
>>>>
>>>>  More info about Minneapolis Issues Forum:
>>>>  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>>>>
>>>>  E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
>>>> -----------------------------------------
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>>>> http://OnlineGroups.Net
>>>>
>>>> 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at
>>>> http://e-democracy.org/rules.
>>>>   If you think a member is in violation, contact the
>>>> forum manager at
>>>>   <email obscured> before continuing it on the
>>>> list.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Kevin Wynn
>>> Audubon Park, NE Minneapolis
>>> Info about Kevin Wynn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/kevinwynn
>>>
>>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4TW6yKE4GAIesDHqBYhD8L
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> Michael Thompson
>> Windom, Minneapolis
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>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/michaelthompson
>>
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>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6W7GzGYNKZDTzpTwgSzj3f
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>>
>
>
> Steve Kotvis
>
> Info about Steve Kotvis: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/stevekotvis
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6q8roc40K1wdmyShKiY39Q
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>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>

From: Jessica Wicks Date: 2007 Nov 14 14:38 UTC Short link

I'm with Steve on this. I did not scream when Clinton was impeached
for lying in sworn testimony. The fact is that behavior is illegal.
This president has violated countless laws, and his exemption from
impeachment is a crying shame. But back to the kids. I love when I
hear cries that the kids are going "down the tubes." I'm 60 years old
now, and remember our own protests back when. This was before Vietnam
was quite the issue, and some of our protests were a bit frivolous in
retrospect, it was very much a passage of youth. And the adults of
that day shook their heads and decried the way the kids were going
down the tubes.

Despite rumors to the contrary, many young people today are well
informed and care about the world they live in. Frankly, recruiters
have no place on a high school campus. It's not been done before. But
now in an immoral war many of the usual understandings have gone by
the wayside.

You know, I honor the folks who choose to serve our nation. They are
just ordinary folks like you and me. But the notion that what they
are doing in Iraq is making my life safer in Minneapolis is
ludicrous. That is the delusion of a delusional leadership. We have
military power to literally wipe out all living beings, or at least
most of them. War torn Iraq poses no real threat. Other than the new
terrorists we are breeding because we are trying to spread our empire
based on neo-conservative theories and pipe dreams.

Our youth will make mistakes. We did as well. But at least they have
the willingness and gumption to speak out in a serious way. I think
they are also serving our nation well. It is that power of the people
that has made our country great. I applaud their efforts!


Peace;

Jessi (Jessica Wicks)
Sheridan, N.E. Mpls

"I should like to be able to love my country and still love justice."
Albert Camus

From: Michael Jensvold Date: 2007 Nov 14 15:09 UTC Short link

Recruiters tell young men (yes, mostly men) whatever they want to hear,
promises of glory, college money, success with women... are they really looking
for people to serve their country or for fresh meat?
Neverending war is far worse than one missed day of school... but I question
the timing.
However, I'm skeptical about the "student-led" claim.
Youth Against War and Racism sounds alot like Act Now to Stop War and End
Racism or A.N.S.W.E.R. the un-reconstructed radicals who led the big protests 4
years ago.
We need more protests, but I wish they were led by people that ordinary
non-radical folk could get behind.
Mike Jensvold
East Isles

From: Michael Cavlan Date: 2007 Nov 14 17:43 UTC Short link

I can personally guarentee you that YAWR has nothing to do with ANSWER. I agree
with you about ANSWER and in fact have no real time for them as they constantly
prove Cindy Sheehan right. You know, in the fact so many of the "peace"
community refuse to hold the Democratic Party just as complicit and responsible
for the mess we are in as the Bush Administration. They are a glorified version
of MoveOn.Org. That is an observation and critique made on a local as well as
national level. I have seen this evident by local activists constant protests
and calls to action against, say Senator Coleman while refusing to organize the
same thing with Senator Klobuchar.

YAWR, on the other hand are local and youth organized and led. I have the
utmost respect for YAWR. They also have no problem in holding the Democrats
just as accountable for the mess we are in in Iraq, lack of Impeachment and
pending war on Iran.

As for the Military Recruiters, I also agree. Recruiters lie, flat out lie to
our kids and take advantage of their nievete, poverty, desire for college and
sense of invincibility. They also flat out lie to kids about "oh, you will
never go to Iraq, we need you more in ...." Kids sign up and bang, they are on
the way to Iraq. YAWR have done a wonderful job of confronting there liars, on
campus and exposing their lies.

I am very proud of YAWR and what they are doing. Meanwhile, as usual they are
attacked by the usual assortment of "chickenhawks" and/or upper middle-class,
priviledged white "liberals" peddling cyclists for global warming.

Same old story, different day.

Michael Cavlan
Powderhorn

From: Jennifer Rubenzer Date: 2007 Nov 14 21:44 UTC Short link

Please correct me if I am wrong, but...

It seems a Socialist by the name of Ty Moore is the local mastermind behind
YAWR.  He's been vocal on the Socialist scene since 2003.  Is he in High
School?  Did he start writing down his Socialist thoughts when he was in
Middle School?  Or is the truth that politically RADICAL local adults are
behind the movement and the walk out?

Again, I pray no one is hurt, but should that occur, Ty Moore, Michael
Cavlan and their ilk should be held responsible.  And let's be real here,
anyone who is publishing information and encouraging support and
participation, like Mike, is by default a promoter.

As I am having a get real moment, let me also say Tom that leaving school,
marching down the street screaming at the top of your lungs and throwing the
same red paint you have smeared across your face on buildings, is hardly
skipping a movie and reading quietly in the lunch room.  I mean HELLO
people!  As you flash back to your days of civil disobedience, would you
really want your kids to act as you did (barring the harmless movie
boycott)?

We're all smarter now than we were then.  These kids are being brainwashed
by the "other" man.  They're moving along the same train of thought as
Hollywood.  They're expressing the pop culture opinion.  It's not wisdom or
bravery, its popularity--pure and simple.

All of that without insulting the people I disagree with...I guess you could
take Socialist as an insult. :)


           Jennifer Rubenzer, Maple Grove

From: Guy Gambill Date: 2007 Nov 14 21:48 UTC Short link

Greetings,

     This is an interesting thread which raises many, many issues. First of
all, I think people
  need to understand how recruiters operate. They operate based on a targeted
quota system-each recruiter must sign up a set number per period. Therefore,
being reasonably intelligent,
  where would you recruit if you were in the military and living in the Metro?
If you were a
  Marine or Army recruiter would you go to areas where you had a better chance
of success?
  Would you focus 90% of your time in Eagan or Wayzata or in areas where
children had
  fewer economic and social possibilities? The Air Force is, by far and away,
the branch
  of the service that takes the recruits with the highest test scores, the
prospects with
  the highest abilities. The men and women who end up being in combat arms in
the Corps
  and Army tend to be folks who have lesser options in our society. I am sure
that many
  would object to this assertion....but then most of them never did a day in
uniform themselves. I cannot assist them in their struggle with reality.I can
tell you that, over 25 years ago when I was in combat arms, the vast majority
of my company were young men
  coming from places like inner city Detroit, Compton, Newark, Kansas
City....35-40% were
  black, another 10% Latino or Native....in short, most combat line units were
not (and are
  not) representative of the demographics in America. What this means is that
the military
  recruits disproportionately in areas lacking in economic
opportunities....that would
  be my objection.
     In terms of what thoughts arise on the anti-war initiatives: Many proceed
from an
  assumption that Iraq-Afghanistan vets are against the War...many aren't, some
are.
  To choose to not listen to their views is to not engage in balanced
policy-making
  decisions.
      For those who support the war, all too often the folks in this camp
assume ultra-patriotic
  stances while never seeming to willing to ante up anything of their own
accord. For these
  people, there are many opportunities for you in Iraq...if you feel that
strongly, by all means
  put your keester where your mouth is...and quit asking the poor and people of
color to
  do your dying...yes, the Majority of our Guard and Reserve Contingents in
Iraq and Afghanistan look more like mainstream Minnnesotans....but remember
that the Ranger
  Battalions, Airborne Units, the mainstream Corps and the line units are
mostly regulars....
  they do the bulk of the dying...really.
       I think folks on both sides assume a great deal, without checking things
out fully.
  At the end of the day recruiters target poor kids more frequently...that is
simply how
  it is. I have a bit of a problem with that. The folks in YAWR that I have
encountered
  often speak for Vets as a whole but only talk to a few people from
VFP....that is
  as mis-leading as what the pro-war folks do. I would also indicate that for
all the concern
  for vets coming up during an election year....I never see 95% of any of these
folks (from
  either side) showing up at any facility to talk to the vets they proclaim to
care about.
  It's a case of inflated rhetoric to fit a personal agenda....an agenda not
thought out
  fully.

  Guy Gambill
  Northeast




Joe Nathan <email obscured>> wrote:
  Not wanting to be difficult, I think part of what a young person needs
to learn is how to make thoughtful, informed decisions. Another thing a
young person needs to learn is how to be an active, constructive,
involved citizen. And a third thing that a student needs to learn (this
is not a complete list) is how to think carefully about the consequences
of her/his actions.

I can imagine a high school student doing all of the above and
concluding that the most important thing for her/him to do on a
particular day, at a particular time, is to join with others outside of
a school building, and challenging the Iraq war. I can also an imagine
a young person doing all of the above and deciding there are other ways
to challenge the Iraq war (or being involved in another important issue)
that do not require leaving a school building during the day.

Hopefully, a student will have discussed these issues with her/his
parent(s) or guardians. But sometimes there is significant
intergenerational conflict. (Having participated in a variety of civil
rights and Vietnam era protests, I have seen how this played out in my
own family, and in families of good friends. David Halberstram wrote a
marvelous book called "The Children." One of the key themes of this
powerful presentation about civil rights struggles in Nashville
Tennessee was the conflict between college students, their families and
the colleges that they attended. Students felt a strong need to protest
and challenge. Their parents and colleges often vigorously opposed
their efforts. Fortunately the students, with great courage,
persisted. They thought carefully about the consequences of their
actions, and spoke out for civil rights that too often we now take for
granted.

We should not always equate schooling and learning. There is a lot to
be learned and accomplished outside a school building (whether at the
k-12, or higher ed level).

Sincerely

Joe Nathan
Center for School Change
Humphrey Institute
University of Minnesota

Steve Kotvis wrote:
> It's my belief that impeachment is not about who won or lost. It's about if
> our administration (I didn't vote for them either, but since they won, it is
> "ours") is breaking the law of the land, and that they are not above it.
> Because someone won doesn't give them the right to break our laws. Separate
> issues in my book.
> ________________________
> Steve Kotvis
> Kenwood Minneapolis
>
>
>
>> From:
>> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:57:49 -0600
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
>>
>> Like others, I'm with Kevin Wynn here.
>>
>> A kids job is to go to school. All else, to include jobs and sports
>> and activism, are extras. When one of the extras impacts going to
>> school, then something is wrong. These kids are truants, regardless of
>> the notes they get from their parents.
>>
>> As for the recruiters: they have a right to be in school as much as
>> anybody. Ed Felien chastises us for assuming that the students
>> couldn't come up with such a march idea on their own. But are not the
>> same students capable of rejecting a message from a prospective
>> employer with as much resolve? Banning recruiters, which is the
>> ultimate aim, is the typical liberal strategy: ban something we don't
>> like under the cloak of righteousness. Bans are in, often promoted by
>> people considering themselves free-thinkers (though bans are as
>> repressive a public policy tool as we have, but that's another
>> thread). Anyway, I would think that students who are so inspired and
>> enlightened as to take to the streets during school would have no
>> problem rejecting the message of military recruiters, and encouraging
>> their peers to do the same. without being threatened by their presence
>> in their school.
>>
>> And I sincerely hope that the students choosing truancy today realize
>> that military recruiters play a large role in their ability to
>> "march." The military, staffed through the work of recruiters,
>> ultimately protects their ability to assemble and speak. I have little
>> doubt that that is a lesson lost in the zeal to look all liberal and
>> trendy and neat-o, all whilst skipping class.
>>
>> And impeachment? Bush and Cheney won, folks. I didn't vote for them,
>> either. But please consider getting over it. If the impeachment folks
>> put as much effort into doing something tangible like adopting a
>> highway or patrolling a neighborhood or painting Dyna Sluyter's
>> house, things might actually begin to change, perhaps quickly. And Mr.
>> Cavlan's logic and commentary regarding elected is quite Bushesque: if
>> you're not against 'em, you're for 'em.
>>
>> We're going down the tubes.
>>
>> Mike Thompson
>> Windom
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Kevin Wynn :
>>
>>
>>> I don't find recruiting objectionable. Nor would you if
>>> you supported the military actions we are involved in.
>>> Just because one is opposed to the war in Iraq does not
>>> mean we do not a strong military. Just because we are not
>>> defending our borders does not mean we are not protecting
>>> our country.
>>>
>>> In fact, I have serious regrets that I did not serve in
>>> the military or in some similar capacity when I was
>>> younger. I will not discourage my children from talking
>>> to recruiters and serving our country if they choose to do
>>> so.
>>>
>>> What I see here is an effort to recruit youth into the
>>> anti-whatever activist movement. Create little protesters
>>> who can grow up into big protesters.
>>>
>>> In this respect Cavlan and his ilk are no better, and
>>> maybe worse, than military recruiters.
>>>
>>> You'll not find any support from me with your arguments
>>> Charley. The kids should be in school.
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin Wynn, Dad
>>> Minneapolis, MN
>>> 2005 Ural Tourist "Tpehora"
>>> Northern Bikers for Global Warming
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:01 +1300 (NZDT)
>>> "Charley Underwood"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kevin Wynn says: "Encouraging high school students,
>>>> minors, to leave school and attend this protest? What an
>>>> incredibly bad idea! I hope no children are injured."
>>>>
>>>> I suppose, Kevin, but what do you think about opening
>>>> our Minneapolis schools to those who encourage children,
>>>> minors, to take up arms and fight in a faraway place
>>>> where they are not wanted, where the locals oppose their
>>>> presence with such force that many of our children end up
>>>> dead and many more end up wounded for life, where they
>>>> witness scenes of death and ugliness so profound that the
>>>> nightmares last forever, barely dulled by drink or
>>>> medication.
>>>>
>>>> If you read the Youth Against War and Racism website
>>>> (http://www.yawr.org), you will find that many of their
>>>> efforts are against the pervasive military recruitment in
>>>> out public schools.
>>>>
>>>> So I ask you two questions:
>>>>
>>>> First, which do you think is the more dangerous
>>>> situation, protesting on the streets of Minneapolis or
>>>> attacking the streets of Fallujah?
>>>>
>>>> Second, let us assume that these is some risk involved
>>>> in both activities. Let us further assume that the brave
>>>> individual will sometimes need to take risks in order to
>>>> protest all of our freedoms. Don't you believe that
>>>> Friday's protest is very much designed to protect our
>>>> freedoms? Or do you truly believe that our freedoms are
>>>> only protected by killing those who disagree with our
>>>> foreign policy?
>>>>
>>>> I salute these idealistic youth. I hope nothing bad
>>>> happens to them at the hands of our local gendarmes. But
>>>> I truly believe that much, much worse will be happening
>>>> to our children if we strip them of their freedoms,
>>>> squelch their dissent and punish them for recognizing the
>>>> horrible cancer of war that is growing within us.
>>>>
>>>> Charley Underwood
>>>> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
>>>> Info about Charley Underwood:
>>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/charleyunderwood
>>>>
>>>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
>>>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HMO0uk0tQc4V0Ev7CoFOf
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>>>> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
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>>>>
>>> Kevin Wynn
>>> Audubon Park, NE Minneapolis
>>> Info about Kevin Wynn: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/kevinwynn
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>>
>>
>> Michael Thompson
>> Windom, Minneapolis
>> Info about Michael Thompson:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/michaelthompson
>>
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>
>
> Steve Kotvis
>
> Info about Steve Kotvis: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/stevekotvis
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Joe Nathan
Highland Park, St Paul
Info about Joe Nathan: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/joenathan

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now.

From: Mark Snyder Date: 2007 Nov 14 22:31 UTC Short link

Actually, YAWR was started in 2004 when three high school members of Socialist
Alternative started to organize against military recruiters at Kennedy High in
Bloomington.

Ty Moore is an organizer for Socialist Alternative, so I wouldn't be surprised
if he played some role in advising them.

People can learn more about YAWR at http://www.yawr.org/

For those who are supportive of what YAWR is doing, you might want to check out
the spaghetti dinner fundraiser they are holding on December 1st.

Mark Snyder
Windom Park

From: Jessica Wicks Date: 2007 Nov 14 23:15 UTC Short link

Well I don't know. I am very comfortable with European style
socialism myself,though most spit the word out. But for a little
history, I had read Das Kapital and many of the works of Lenin by the
time I was 14. I began inquiring by the time I was 12. That would
have been 1959. We were in the middle of the great Red Scare and I
wanted to understand what the big deal was. I rejected communism, but
then that is but one form of socialism. So why do people always
equate it with the most radical and violent form? Perhaps for the
same reasons that Muslims get pigeonholed in our intolerant age. For
the record, I also researched Jefferson and Locke and others to try
to make sense of all the irrational jabbering of that time.

The capitalization of "Socialist" as well as all caps RADICAL belies
assumptions that just simply are not true. One can be socialist and
totally democratic, and opposition to this war is not radical at all
unless you are ready to assume that the majority of people in this
country are radical. You know last time there was a student protest,
the son of one of the leaders of my church went to his parents,
explained what he planned to do. They discussed consequences, and the
basis for his feelings regarding the war. After knowing he
understood  the ramifications of his actions, they sent him on with
their blessings and their support.

Anyway, I would be hesitant to talk about this young man unless you
have an understanding of just what he has been vocal about. It seems
terribly unfair to have him painted with such a broad brush when he
can't even respond.

Peace;

Jessi (Jessica Wicks)
Sheridan, NE Mpls

"A mind is like a parachute. It doesnt work if it's not open."

~Frank Zappa

From: Wizard Marks Date: 2007 Nov 14 23:35 UTC Short link

I read the fear, presumably from parents, about teens going to/holding a
demonstration against military recruiters on their school campuses. I think
that fear is overblown, though eminently understandable. However, having gone
on way too many peace marches and attended way too many demonstrations, I can
attest to the fact that there are far more dangerous things teens could be
doing (motorcycles, alcohol, and drugs come to mind immediately).

Some things they might learn: to handle themselves in a big crowd and steer
clear of those using the occasion to behave like fools (e.g., skin heads). Some
will be learning that they are still too short to be in the middle of a crowd.
If it comes to that, though the odds are not that good, they might also learn
that tear gas is not fun, but not lethal either.

Had I a teen in school, I would be incensed to have military recruiters on a
high school campus and would want to go to the demonstration with my teen to
voice my disgust, forcefully, at the practice. (I doubt teens would want a mom
along, it might actively discourage participation.)

Armed Forces Recruiters on campus is, a huge teen issue since the recruiters
are on the campus for fresh meat for the grinder. Recruiters are no different
that erstwhile conscriptors who pulled people off the streets (in Europe) for
the endless European wars, current recruiters just have better advertizing
tools.

During those teen years, it is really important to ferret out ones own feelings
and argument for and against customs which directly impact their lives. It was
one of the big failings of my generational parents (the 50s as a teen), that
teens not only were not asked to formulate opinions about real life impacts,
but were actively discouraged from doing so. The end result is to keep teens
from growing up and learning to be sensible so as to have the possibility of a
better future. It sets them up to be couch potatoes without actively
participating in the important events of their lives.

From: Michael Cavlan Date: 2007 Nov 15 00:42 UTC Short link

Wizard,

First, you or any other adults would be welcome at this event as YAWR are
asking for adults to be Peace Marshals, to decrease the likelihood of problems
with the police and others. In other words to help protect the kids.

Second, I am going as a father and I think my kid will live. Hell he wants me
to be there although he would never admit to it to his friends. You could join
me as one of those goofy parents. You could even join us working to pressure
our elected officials to stop protecting the Bush Administration and start
pushing for Impeachment.

Michael Cavlan
Powderhorn

-----Original Message-----
>From: wizard marks <email obscured>>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 5:35 PM
>To: AAMpls <email obscured>>
>Subject: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
>
>I read the fear, presumably from parents, about teens going to/holding a
demonstration against military recruiters on their school campuses. I think
that fear is overblown, though eminently understandable. However, having gone
on way too many peace marches and attended way too many demonstrations, I can
attest to the fact that there are far more dangerous things teens could be
doing (motorcycles, alcohol, and drugs come to mind immediately).
>
>Some things they might learn: to handle themselves in a big crowd and steer
clear of those using the occasion to behave like fools (e.g., skin heads). Some
will be learning that they are still too short to be in the middle of a crowd.
If it comes to that, though the odds are not that good, they might also learn
that tear gas is not fun, but not lethal either.
>
>Had I a teen in school, I would be incensed to have military recruiters on a
high school campus and would want to go to the demonstration with my teen to
voice my disgust, forcefully, at the practice. (I doubt teens would want a mom
along, it might actively discourage participation.)
>
>Armed Forces Recruiters on campus is, a huge teen issue since the recruiters
are on the campus for fresh meat for the grinder. Recruiters are no different
that erstwhile conscriptors who pulled people off the streets (in Europe) for
the endless European wars, current recruiters just have better advertizing
tools.
>
>During those teen years, it is really important to ferret out ones own
feelings and argument for and against customs which directly impact their
lives. It was one of the big failings of my generational parents (the 50s as a
teen), that teens not only were not asked to formulate opinions about real life
impacts, but were actively discouraged from doing so. The end result is to keep
teens from growing up and learning to be sensible so as to have the possibility
of a better future. It sets them up to be couch potatoes without actively
participating in the important events of their lives.
>
>
>
>Wizard Marks
>Central
>Info about Wizard Marks: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/wizardmarks
>
>This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4U8IQeOqsrpsCjurCs90M1
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>
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>-----------------------------------------
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>2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.

From: Ronald Leurquin Date: 2007 Nov 15 15:22 UTC Short link

Please correct me if I am wrong, but...

This event has not happened yet, so where the heck is the 'red paint'
comment coming from?
Why do you need to paint a whole new 'red scare' from the 50's all over
again because a group of students have a brain and have figured out that
this war is wrong, wrong, wrong.
If any of these students get hurt, lets figure out the facts and hold
the harmers responsible.  It will not necessarily be the parents that
allowed their child to participate, it might be some closeted fascist
posing as a peace officer, or it may be some Bushite war supporter that
doesn't like having someone disagree with them about this war.

Let these students have their march, and maybe they can even teach a few
of us about civility in protesting.   Are we afraid they may be able to
peacefully protest and put the adults to shame?  Keep in mind its them
and their children that are going to be paying for this idiotic war for
oil.

I suppose those of you against YAWR will also be against anyone
protesting the FNC convention next year in St Paul?

Enough of my ranting.
Ron Leurquin
Nokomis East



Jenifer wrote:
As I am having a get real moment, let me also say Tom that leaving
school, marching down the street screaming at the top of your lungs and
throwing the same red paint you have smeared across your face on
buildings, is hardly skipping a movie and reading quietly in the lunch
room.  I mean HELLO people!  As you flash back to your days of civil
disobedience, would you really want your kids to act as you did (barring
the harmless movie boycott)?

From: Steve Kotvis Date: 2007 Nov 15 16:00 UTC Short link

I don't understand why this protest has to be made during the school hours.
It seems to be to be an exclusive rather than inclusive approach.

Doesn't this approach primarily include only:
* kids who reflect their parents POV and whose parents will take the time
to write in or calling in an excuse
* kids whose parents don't know what they are doing
* kids whose parents dont agree with their kids but the kids are going to
break the truancy laws regardless

This approach seems to exclude:
* kids who are thinking independent of their parents and may not get the
permission from their parents for an excused absence, but wont break the
truancy laws
* kids who may wish to participate, but based on the choice between
attending class and attending an event, treasure their time in class and
don't see the trade off between missing a class or a test or a lecture or a
project worth an activist event.

I think were giving this group too much credit for creating an event thats
supposed to be so radical. Rather, it seems it will attract an exclusive
group of like minded kids who reflect their parents POV and a lot of kids
who dont care about the cause but see attending such an event cool just
because it creates a cause to break some kind of rule, regardless of what
the rule is.

Personally, if I was to learn something about civility of protesting, Id
start by being inclusive.

________________________
Steve Kotvis
Kenwood, Minneapolis



> From: "Leurquin, Ronald" <email obscured>>
> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:09:56 -0500
> To: Jennifer Rubenzer <email obscured>>, Minneapolis Issues
Forum
> <email obscured>>
> Conversation: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
> Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
>
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but...
>
> This event has not happened yet, so where the heck is the 'red paint'
> comment coming from?
> Why do you need to paint a whole new 'red scare' from the 50's all over
> again because a group of students have a brain and have figured out that
> this war is wrong, wrong, wrong.
> If any of these students get hurt, lets figure out the facts and hold
> the harmers responsible.  It will not necessarily be the parents that
> allowed their child to participate, it might be some closeted fascist
> posing as a peace officer, or it may be some Bushite war supporter that
> doesn't like having someone disagree with them about this war.
>
> Let these students have their march, and maybe they can even teach a few
> of us about civility in protesting.   Are we afraid they may be able to
> peacefully protest and put the adults to shame?  Keep in mind its them
> and their children that are going to be paying for this idiotic war for
> oil.
>
> I suppose those of you against YAWR will also be against anyone
> protesting the FNC convention next year in St Paul?
>
> Enough of my ranting.
> Ron Leurquin
> Nokomis East
>
>
>
> Jenifer wrote:
> As I am having a get real moment, let me also say Tom that leaving
> school, marching down the street screaming at the top of your lungs and
> throwing the same red paint you have smeared across your face on
> buildings, is hardly skipping a movie and reading quietly in the lunch
> room.  I mean HELLO people!  As you flash back to your days of civil
> disobedience, would you really want your kids to act as you did (barring
> the harmless movie boycott)?
>
>
> Ronald Leurquin
> Nokomis East, Minneapolis
> Info about Ronald Leurquin:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/ronaldleurquin
>
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> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2vk2oYyl6Pb1l1Aeob4Gtb
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>    <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.

From: Jennifer Rubenzer Date: 2007 Nov 15 16:58 UTC Short link

The red paint was used in last year's YAWR protest.  Check YouTube for more
info.

Jennifer Rubenzer, Maple Grove
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Leurquin, Ronald" <email obscured>>

Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:09:56
To:"Jennifer Rubenzer" <email obscured>>,"Minneapolis Issues
Forum" <email obscured>>
Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment

Please correct me if I am wrong, but...

This event has not happened yet, so where the heck is the 'red paint'
comment coming from?
Why do you need to paint a whole new 'red scare' from the 50's all over
again because a group of students have a brain and have figured out that
this war is wrong, wrong, wrong.
If any of these students get hurt, lets figure out the facts and hold
the harmers responsible.  It will not necessarily be the parents that
allowed their child to participate, it might be some closeted fascist
posing as a peace officer, or it may be some Bushite war supporter that
doesn't like having someone disagree with them about this war.

Let these students have their march, and maybe they can even teach a few
of us about civility in protesting.   Are we afraid they may be able to
peacefully protest and put the adults to shame?  Keep in mind its them
and their children that are going to be paying for this idiotic war for
oil.

I suppose those of you against YAWR will also be against anyone
protesting the FNC convention next year in St Paul?

Enough of my ranting.
Ron Leurquin
Nokomis East

Jenifer wrote:
As I am having a get real moment, let me also say Tom that leaving
school, marching down the street screaming at the top of your lungs and
throwing the same red paint you have smeared across your face on
buildings, is hardly skipping a movie and reading quietly in the lunch
room.  I mean HELLO people!  As you flash back to your days of civil
disobedience, would you really want your kids to act as you did (barring
the harmless movie boycott)?

Ronald Leurquin
Nokomis East, Minneapolis
Info about Ronald Leurquin:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/ronaldleurquin

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From: Ed Felien Date: 2007 Nov 15 17:01 UTC Short link

Two points in response to Steve:

First, it's a protest.  It's meant to protest business as usual.  Do you
remember how Hannah Ahrendt talked about the banality of evil.  How, in Nazi
Germany, everyone went about their jobs.  Nobody really supported the Nazis.
Nobody knew about the concentration camps.  Nobody supported torture.  And
nobody did anything about it.  These kids are saying, "That's not acceptable."

Second, the action is meant to be inclusive, but it is also an act of civil
disobedience.  For this one day the banality of civil order will be disrupted
by students demanding action from the rest of us to stop this murderous theft
of oil from a foreign land.  When I graduated from Roosevelt High School there
was a Senior Skip Day.  It was meant to include everyone in the senior class,
but there were some who resisted the allure of truancy and stayed behind.  It
takes a measure of courage and some sense of commitment to step outside
society's parameters.  Let the students lead.  Let's listen to them.

Ed Felien
Powderhorn


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Kotvis <email obscured>]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:00 AM
To: Leurquin, Ronald; Jennifer Rubenzer; Minneapolis Issues Forum
Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment


I don't understand why this protest has to be made during the school hours.
It seems to be to be an exclusive rather than inclusive approach.

Doesn't this approach primarily include only:
* kids who reflect their parents POV and whose parents will take the time
to write in or calling in an excuse
* kids whose parents don't know what they are doing
* kids whose parents dont agree with their kids but the kids are going to
break the truancy laws regardless

This approach seems to exclude:
* kids who are thinking independent of their parents and may not get the
permission from their parents for an excused absence, but wont break the
truancy laws
* kids who may wish to participate, but based on the choice between
attending class and attending an event, treasure their time in class and
don't see the trade off between missing a class or a test or a lecture or a
project worth an activist event.

I think were giving this group too much credit for creating an event thats
supposed to be so radical. Rather, it seems it will attract an exclusive
group of like minded kids who reflect their parents POV and a lot of kids
who dont care about the cause but see attending such an event cool just
because it creates a cause to break some kind of rule, regardless of what
the rule is.

Personally, if I was to learn something about civility of protesting, Id
start by being inclusive.
________________________
Steve Kotvis
Kenwood, Minneapolis



> From: "Leurquin, Ronald" <email obscured>>
> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:09:56 -0500
> To: Jennifer Rubenzer <email obscured>>, Minneapolis Issues
Forum
> <email obscured>>
> Conversation: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
> Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
>
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but...
>
> This event has not happened yet, so where the heck is the 'red paint'
> comment coming from?
> Why do you need to paint a whole new 'red scare' from the 50's all over
> again because a group of students have a brain and have figured out that
> this war is wrong, wrong, wrong.
> If any of these students get hurt, lets figure out the facts and hold
> the harmers responsible.  It will not necessarily be the parents that
> allowed their child to participate, it might be some closeted fascist
> posing as a peace officer, or it may be some Bushite war supporter that
> doesn't like having someone disagree with them about this war.
>
> Let these students have their march, and maybe they can even teach a few
> of us about civility in protesting.   Are we afraid they may be able to
> peacefully protest and put the adults to shame?  Keep in mind its them
> and their children that are going to be paying for this idiotic war for
> oil.
>
> I suppose those of you against YAWR will also be against anyone
> protesting the FNC convention next year in St Paul?
>
> Enough of my ranting.
> Ron Leurquin
> Nokomis East
>
>
>
> Jenifer wrote:
> As I am having a get real moment, let me also say Tom that leaving
> school, marching down the street screaming at the top of your lungs and
> throwing the same red paint you have smeared across your face on
> buildings, is hardly skipping a movie and reading quietly in the lunch
> room.  I mean HELLO people!  As you flash back to your days of civil
> disobedience, would you really want your kids to act as you did (barring
> the harmless movie boycott)?
>
>
> Ronald Leurquin
> Nokomis East, Minneapolis
> Info about Ronald Leurquin:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/ronaldleurquin
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2vk2oYyl6Pb1l1Aeob4Gtb
> -----------------------------------------
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>   To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
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>
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>
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> -----------------------------------------
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> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.


Steve Kotvis

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From: Charley Underwood Date: 2007 Nov 15 17:44 UTC Short link

Steve Kotvis asks an excellent question: Why not have your protest outside
school hours?  Why do a walkout?

Well, Steve, lots of young people have already done all that.  They went to the
vigils, the rallies, the talks, the meetings.  They volunteered in the antiwar
candidate’s phonebank and wrote letters to the editor and they blogged and sent
emails and signed online petitions.  But somehow the damned war keeps going on
and that military recruiter keeps showing up in the lunchroom and the bill for
all this tragic foolishness is climbing above two trillion dollars.  And
somehow it is all put on the young person’s credit card without permission.
(Talk about identity theft!)

The war has been going on for a long time and nothing has worked so far to stop
it.  It is only natural that an intelligent and well-informed young person
would want to crank up the pressure a bit by doing something a bit more
dramatic.  Like walking out of school on a Friday afternoon in November.

This is actually our fault, Steve.  Yours and mine.  The electoral process has
become corrupted by money, so those volunteer hours don’t work as well as they
used to back in Wellstone’s day.  The press seems determined to be trivial and
uninformative, so most adults don’t even know what’s going on.  The public
institutions like schools and libraries are chronically underfunded, so there
are fewer and fewer supports for positive change.  And in the meantime, the
cost in lives and money is being put on the young people.  It is quite certain
that neither you nor I, Steve, are going to die in this war.  And it is quite
certain that we are not going to be paying for it with our taxes either.

Wouldn’t you start to feel a bit impatient, if you had been trying to stop a
war since you were in the fifth grade?

If we don’t want students walking out of classes, then we owe it to them to
nurture other, more acceptable mechanisms for change.  That means that our
elected officials need to start standing up for a better society, instead of
caving into Bushite bullies.  That means spending a bit of money on their
schools and libraries, and perhaps paying for this stupid war ourselves, if we
want it so much.  That means that Kevin Wynn should go ahead and volunteer to
fight in Iraq, if he believes in that fight so much, and not try to dupe
unsuspecting kids into dying for a cause that only he believes in.

This situation is getting worse, folks, but most of us are too insulated to
know.  We are at a crossroads in our democracy, in my opinion.  We have taken
the wrong turn and our institutions aren’t helping us correct that mistake.
The need for change is constant.  Either we support the institutions that allow
that change to be peaceful and orderly, or the demand for change will come in
ways that none of us would want.

Do you think that a nonviolent student walkout is too extreme?  Try reading the
Declaration of Independence, or the writings of Tom Paine, for that matter.

From: John Harris Date: 2007 Nov 15 17:57 UTC Short link

> That means that our elected officials need to start standing up for a better
society

this would assume that you are the sole judge and jury on what a
better society is.  This doesn't seem very fair in a democratic
society.

>That means spending a bit of money on their schools and libraries

You mean a bit more.  Half of minnesota's budget goes to schools.
They have billions.

>and not try to dupe unsuspecting kids into dying...

Couple of questions here.  How they duping unsuspecting kids?  it is
the military after all and the military fights wars.

How many active military are there?  How many have died in the last 5
years?  is it more than 5%?

John Harris
webber-camden

From: Jim Graham Date: 2007 Nov 15 18:59 UTC Short link

Great post Guy.

  In past wars the recruiting was also among the poor.  It was viewed as the
only escape and opportunity for generations of the poor and under-educated to
find a better life.

  You are correct Guy; you never see either side when it comes to actual work
with vets. In fact some of the strong protesters, and advocates, of war who say
they are concerned for Vets do not seem to care when the Vet comes home.  How
many of both sides support the ordinances aimed at the homeless?  How many do
anything for the homeless Vet who might suffer from depression and self
medicate with alcohol and street drugs? Not many!

  It sort of reminds me of Viet Nam, and that wars vets, supporters, and
protesters.  Many of the pro-war certainly treated Vets badly when they
returned, and did so for the next twenty years, cause they lost a war.  And the
protesters, supposedly caring about the poor people and veterans?  I never
remember any protests when 3 million South-East Asians were murdered after we
pulled out.  I never remember any of them down at Catholic Charities working
with homeless Vets.

  It seemed that the only people who gave a damn about any of those things were
returning Vets themselves, and a little protester named Paul Wellstone.  Vets,
many of who absolutely hated Pauls politics, mostly supported Paul and agree
that he was the leading elected official in attempting to help Vets. The saber
rattling cowards who wanted wars but only if they could stay home, and the
protesters who were against wars so they could stay out of harms way, (I
believe that accurately describes our last two Presidents) never did half as
much or cared half as much for Vets as Paul did.

  I can remember those times, and remember only the Native communities honoring
and welcoming Vets.  The parade that honored returning Vets did not take place
in any City until the middle 1980s.  There were parades but they were pretty
much only organized by Vet organizations.  I very clearly remember standing in
amazement when New York gave that parade.  I also remember a large group of
Native people (all strangers) standing, shacking my hand, and saying, Welcome
home brother.

  So my opinion is that kids will be kids, and this is their generation to do
protests.  We had the Riders, the sit-ins, and the war protesters.  It helps
form social conscience and activism.  But hopefully these young Minneapolis
people will be much less hypocritical than our generations were, and actually
care about what they are protesting after it stops being cool.  If they really
care.

  Jim Graham,
  Ventura Village

From: Guy Gambill Date: 2007 Nov 16 04:24 UTC Short link

Interesting parallel to draw...yet also interesting for the parallels it fails
to draw. The
  National Socialists had plenty of active support. The concepts of Lebensraum,
of
  a militaristic Teutonic order standing as a bulwark against the hordes from
the East,
  the hatred of Die Juden, the nearly animistic adoration of natural
force...these things
  long antedated Hitler and his hacks...in fact, Hitler was most notable for
never coming
  up with a single original thought. The sins of the denizens of the Weimar
Republic
  and the haughty Prussian military caste were sins of arrogance and omission.

  Our great sin of omission is that we presume to sit in judgement while fully
benefiting
  from the exploitation of the vast majority of the earth's population. We want
it all without
  sacrificing anything, personally. You want to see something that resembles
many things
  but not hardly a "banality of civil order" drive down Penn Avenue...the
banality may be
  pried up, just beneath the service. In a City with a North Side that has the
one of the
  highest STD\HIV infection rates in the Nation, where the literacy rate
plummets, schools
  close, the incarceration rate is utterly astounding, where the most notable
sign of
  public service is the constantly roaming squad cars, where parks are unsafe
and
  children live with relatives because their parents are dead or on dope or are
locked away--
  for lack of opportunity, for lack of hope, for the sake of those who reside
15 miles away
  on the shores of Lake Minnetonka culling out millions of bucks for strategic
plans from
  large foundations that, for all the spending, somehow avoid sinking anything
resembling
  a measurable impact into the sectors of the City that need it most....where
the only escape
  for a young man is either to sell enough crack to get the Hell out or join
the Army and end
  up in Fallujah...we don't have to protest a war zone 8,000 miles away....we
have one right
  here...only the methodology of demise differs.

  Going into Iraq was a colossal mistake...an utterly preposterous military
decision with
  no hope of success....yet how reflective of our own cultural arrogance. It is
always a good
  idea when you seek to impose Democracy upon another people to ensure that you
are
  practicing it yourself first. We began our journey with one King George and
we are ending
  it with an even more monumentally dense George who has crowned
himself...while the
  wife of a former Executive lines up for the seat and a third member of our
own domestic
  House of Hanover squats in Florida waiting his turn...Iraq was a gargantuan
undertaking,
  doomed to failure...so is our great domestic experiment. It is only a matter
of time before
  we get what we deserve. The disparities in wealth, opportunity, race....we
began in a fight
  against these precepts and, in the end, we have ended up in the same state of
affairs.
  If anyone can tell me how in the Hell half of our City Council can possibly
claim to be
  even remotely based in the DFL tradition founded here I'd love to hear it.
The biggest
  joke of all---on all of us--is that we allow the nametag to be worn without
requiring any
  proof whatsoever of a fundamental core set of beliefs and political actions
that do anything
  to serve our average citizens. Minneapolis has succumbed to rent a politician
syndrome
  just like the rest of the country...make no mistake...nary an original idea
dares rear its
  head...now that is banal.

  Back to Nazi Germany....Hannah was great, but read Peter Viereck's "The Roots
of
  Cultural Despair"....draw the parallels with our own society...the parallels
are there.
  Wanna end this war quickly? Follow Charles Rangel's suggestion: Universal
draft for
  all Americans...the war would end next month.

  Guy Gambill
  Northeast

<email obscured> wrote:
  Two points in response to Steve:

First, it's a protest. It's meant to protest business as usual. Do you remember
how Hannah Ahrendt talked about the banality of evil. How, in Nazi Germany,
everyone went about their jobs. Nobody really supported the Nazis. Nobody knew
about the concentration camps. Nobody supported torture. And nobody did
anything about it. These kids are saying, "That's not acceptable."

Second, the action is meant to be inclusive, but it is also an act of civil
disobedience. For this one day the banality of civil order will be disrupted by
students demanding action from the rest of us to stop this murderous theft of
oil from a foreign land. When I graduated from Roosevelt High School there was
a Senior Skip Day. It was meant to include everyone in the senior class, but
there were some who resisted the allure of truancy and stayed behind. It takes
a measure of courage and some sense of commitment to step outside society's
parameters. Let the students lead. Let's listen to them.

Ed Felien
Powderhorn


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Kotvis <email obscured>]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:00 AM
To: Leurquin, Ronald; Jennifer Rubenzer; Minneapolis Issues Forum
Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment


I don't understand why this protest has to be made during the school hours.
It seems to be to be an exclusive rather than inclusive approach.

Doesn't this approach primarily include only:
* kids who reflect their parents POV and whose parents will take the time
to write in or calling in an excuse
* kids whose parents don't know what they are doing
* kids whose parents dont agree with their kids but the kids are going to
break the truancy laws regardless

This approach seems to exclude:
* kids who are thinking independent of their parents and may not get the
permission from their parents for an excused absence, but wont break the
truancy laws
* kids who may wish to participate, but based on the choice between
attending class and attending an event, treasure their time in class and
don't see the trade off between missing a class or a test or a lecture or a
project worth an activist event.

I think were giving this group too much credit for creating an event thats
supposed to be so radical. Rather, it seems it will attract an exclusive
group of like minded kids who reflect their parents POV and a lot of kids
who dont care about the cause but see attending such an event cool just
because it creates a cause to break some kind of rule, regardless of what
the rule is.

Personally, if I was to learn something about civility of protesting, Id
start by being inclusive.
________________________
Steve Kotvis
Kenwood, Minneapolis



> From: "Leurquin, Ronald"
> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:09:56 -0500
> To: Jennifer Rubenzer , Minneapolis Issues Forum
>
> Conversation: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
> Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
>
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but...
>
> This event has not happened yet, so where the heck is the 'red paint'
> comment coming from?
> Why do you need to paint a whole new 'red scare' from the 50's all over
> again because a group of students have a brain and have figured out that
> this war is wrong, wrong, wrong.
> If any of these students get hurt, lets figure out the facts and hold
> the harmers responsible. It will not necessarily be the parents that
> allowed their child to participate, it might be some closeted fascist
> posing as a peace officer, or it may be some Bushite war supporter that
> doesn't like having someone disagree with them about this war.
>
> Let these students have their march, and maybe they can even teach a few
> of us about civility in protesting. Are we afraid they may be able to
> peacefully protest and put the adults to shame? Keep in mind its them
> and their children that are going to be paying for this idiotic war for
> oil.
>
> I suppose those of you against YAWR will also be against anyone
> protesting the FNC convention next year in St Paul?
>
> Enough of my ranting.
> Ron Leurquin
> Nokomis East
>
>
>
> Jenifer wrote:
> As I am having a get real moment, let me also say Tom that leaving
> school, marching down the street screaming at the top of your lungs and
> throwing the same red paint you have smeared across your face on
> buildings, is hardly skipping a movie and reading quietly in the lunch
> room. I mean HELLO people! As you flash back to your days of civil
> disobedience, would you really want your kids to act as you did (barring
> the harmless movie boycott)?
>
>
> Ronald Leurquin
> Nokomis East, Minneapolis
> Info about Ronald Leurquin:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/ronaldleurquin
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2vk2oYyl6Pb1l1Aeob4Gtb
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
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>
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> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.


Steve Kotvis

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Ed Felien

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---------------------------------
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From: Eric Oines Date: 2007 Nov 18 02:52 UTC Short link

As Joe Nathan points out, there is a history of in-school and out of school
protest in this country.  This is a continuation of that fione American
tradition.

Part of being a teen is learning about the responsibilities that come with
rights.  Often, the excercising of our basic civic rights (and some say duties)
leads to consequences - tear gas, arrest, tasering, beating, unexcused absence,
perhaps even a note in the dreaded "permanent student record".

I saw a large group of the students marching down Franklin Ave. on Friday. They
had a great deal of support from the passing cars and people on the street.
Their righteous indignation at being lied to, and having their futures
mortgaged via the hubris of old rich men was contageous; something that boils
just below the surface in many of us in these times.  I was proud that I live
in a country where the citizenry can express their political grudges.

As a father, if my daughters ever come to me and ask to join a similar protest,
I would seek some information and then probably give my blessing.  They have
both participated in previous protest marches and sit-ins.

We are attempting to raise healthy, responsible adults...  not sheep.

Eric Oines
Lind-Bohanon

From: Jennifer Rubenzer Date: 2007 Nov 18 13:32 UTC Short link

In response to Eric, I exercise my civil rights daily and have managed to avoid
"tear gas, arrest, tasering, beating, unexcused absense" and any blemish on my
student record was not due to exercising my student rights, but abusing the
priveledges I was given.  Am I doing something wrong to go through life happy,
politically active and yet unscathed?

Do we not expect civility out of those exercising their rights?

Not much enjoying our fine country's slow ride to hell in a hand basket--
Jennifer Rubenzer, Maple Grove

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Eric Oines" <email obscured>>

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:54:02
To:"Minneapolis Issues Forum" <email obscured>>
Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment

As Joe Nathan points out, there is a history of in-school and out of school
protest in this country.  This is a continuation of that fione American
tradition.

Part of being a teen is learning about the responsibilities that come with
rights.  Often, the excercising of our basic civic rights (and some say duties)
leads to consequences - tear gas, arrest, tasering, beating, unexcused absence,
perhaps even a note in the dreaded "permanent student record".

I saw a large group of the students marching down Franklin Ave. on Friday. They
had a great deal of support from the passing cars and people on the street.
Their righteous indignation at being lied to, and having their futures
mortgaged via the hubris of old rich men was contageous; something that boils
just below the surface in many of us in these times.  I was proud that I live
in a country where the citizenry can express their political grudges.

As a father, if my daughters ever come to me and ask to join a similar protest,
I would seek some information and then probably give my blessing.  They have
both participated in previous protest marches and sit-ins.

We are attempting to raise healthy, responsible adults...  not sheep.

Eric Oines
Lind-Bohanon

Eric Oines
Lind-Bohanon, Minneapolis
Info about Eric Oines: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/ericoines

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From: Dave Garland Date: 2007 Nov 18 17:04 UTC Short link

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:32:24 +0000, Jennifer Rubenzer from Maple Grove
wrote:

>I exercise my civil rights daily and have managed to avoid "tear gas, arrest,
tasering, beating, unexcused absense"... Am I doing something wrong to go
through life happy, politically active and yet unscathed?

From: Eric Oines Date: 2007 Nov 18 18:28 UTC Short link

I think it's fair to say that oftentimes, especially when defying the
conventions of the time, civility has little to do with whether or not you are
abused for exercising your civil rights.

In Minneapolis, one need merely to look at the recent Critical Mass debacle or
the Gentics Conference in 2000(?) when Nicollet Mall was turned into a virtual
concentration camp style ghetto with 8 foot fences and wandering plain clothes
FBI snapping pictures of passers-by.

It will be very interesting to see how peaceful demonstration and civil
disobedience is handled at next year's GOP convention.

In an era of "free speech zones" cordoned often miles from an event site, and
chain link barriers, how do we reconcile "Congress shall make no law respecting
an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people
peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of
grievances."?

Just wondering...

Eric Oines
Lind-Bohanon

From: Mark V Anderson Date: 2007 Nov 19 14:46 UTC Short link

Eric Oines wrote:
> It will be very interesting to see how peaceful demonstration and civil
disobedience is handled at next year's GOP convention.
>
>
Mark Anderson:
I doubt that we'll find out, because I doubt that the demonstrations
will be peaceful.

From: Michael Thompson Date: 2007 Nov 19 15:50 UTC Short link

I agree with Mr. Anderson's comments. I believe that the
demonstrations will rival Chicago of 1968. Arrests will be the
benchmark of proof that an argument has relevancy and many protesters,
I predict, will do whatever it takes to get cuffed and booked.

It is easy NOT to get arrested whilst protesting. It doesn't just
happen to those peacefully assembling for their redress of grievances.
Those who >will< be arrested will do so to make a point(s). What's
interesting is that if we took the money that >will< be spent on
arrests and transport and detention and the eventual lawsuits by those
arrested and spent it on the arrestee's pet cause, their cause would
benefit far more than any arrest would. Of course, this will prove
that the entire exercise for those arrested is about the statement of
the arrest, not the cause for which they were protesting.

I intend on apologizing to the rest of the country prior to the
convention on behalf of Minneapolis and St. Paul.

Mike Thompson
Windom


Quoting Anderson&Turpin <email obscured>>:

From: Jim Graham Date: 2007 Nov 19 20:37 UTC Short link

2008 like 1968?  Yes, in part I agree, I fear this will be like Chicago in 68.
There will be a key difference though.  In 68 you had liberal young people who
by and large were demonstrating against their own "Party" and its convention.
The same people helped organize the McGovern success four years later.

  This convention will mark a completely different scenario.  You will have
what are by and large liberal democrats seeking to destroy the opposing party's
convention.  You will also have the demonstration applauded by some who would
be horrified and screaming bloody murder if it was a throng of crew-cut
conservative youth seeking to shut down the Democratic National Convention.

  For those who might care, I personally think all those who participated in
the 68 fiasco should hang their heads in SHAME.  They have the honor of being
responsible for continuing the Viet Nam War by at least four additional years,
and are personally responsible for electing Richard Nixon to being President.

  So thank you very much, the United States because of your actions failed to
elect one of the two or three greatest statesmen of the 20th century.  Hubert H
Humphrey.  What could the world have been like without your efforts and with
eight years of Hubert Humphrey as President?  Certainly a much better place.

  I just hope the effort to disrupt a convention, and the possible backlash
against it, does not have the same effect this time. Elect someone we do not
need.  Right now not many people really care about ANY of the people running on
either side, and it is pretty sure we will have a Democratic President and
possibly both houses of Congress.  We do NOT need a huge grown swell of
motivated opposition organizing to change that.

  We do not need pictures of riots and "horrible Twin Cities cops" from the
"Liberal" Minnesota fighting with demonstrators.  Ask Chicago how much that
helped their public image for the next several years.  What we need is a lot of
coverage about how cool Minneapolis is, and not much real interest in the
convention itself, other than the fights between Republicans smearing each
other, drinking parties, and rich Conservatives spending their money in the
Twin Cities. You know, all that good positive stuff!

  Jim Graham
  Ventura Village

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment."

From: Jim McGuire Date: 2007 Nov 19 21:06 UTC Short link

Mike Thompson wrote:
> I agree with Mr. Anderson's comments. I believe that the
> demonstrations will rival Chicago of 1968. Arrests will be the
> benchmark of proof that an argument has relevancy and many protesters,
> I predict, will do whatever it takes to get cuffed and booked.
>

I fail to see how a police riot in Chicago has anything to do with people
doing "whatever takes to get cuffed and booked"

Jim McGuire
Como

From: Jim McGuire Date: 2007 Nov 19 21:07 UTC Short link

Mike Thompson wrote:
> I agree with Mr. Anderson's comments. I believe that the
> demonstrations will rival Chicago of 1968. Arrests will be the
> benchmark of proof that an argument has relevancy and many protesters,
> I predict, will do whatever it takes to get cuffed and booked.
>

I fail to see how a police riot in Chicago has anything to do with people
doing "whatever takes to get cuffed and booked"

Jim McGuire
Como

From: Wizard Marks Date: 2007 Nov 19 23:33 UTC Short link

Jim Graham: "For those who might care, I personally think all those who
participated in the 68 fiasco should hang their heads in SHAME.  They have the
honor of being responsible for continuing the Viet Nam War by at least four
additional years, and are personally responsible for electing Richard Nixon to
being President."

In the end, the 68 Democratic National Convention was judged to be the result
of a police riot. While there were demonstrators, it was the delegates to the
convention who got their heads bashed in by the Chicago Police Department while
trying to get to and into the convention hall.

If you want to assign blame, though it's 40 years ago, the blame must be put on
the Chicago Police. Hubert H. Humphrey, like Nixon, backed the Vietnam War.
Eugene McCarthy was the anti-war candidate who wanted to pressure his party
into an anti-war stance.

Wikipedia: "At the time, the Dems were split into four factions: first and
largest, the big-city party bosses and labor unions, headed by Richard Daley,
mayor of Chicago. They had held sway with the Dems since FDR and feared their
loss of control over the party. They only backed Humphrey after Johnson
withdrew.

"The second group, which rallied behind Senator McCarthy, was composed of
students and intellectuals who had been the early spokespeople against the war
in Vietnam; they perceived themselves as the future of the Democratic Party.

"The third group was primarily composed of Catholics, African-Americans, and
other racial and ethnic minorities; these groups rallied behind Senator Robert
Kennedy, who was assassinated by Sirhan Sirhan before the election.

"The fourth group consisted of conservative white Southern Democrats, or
"Dixiecrats." Some members (probably older ones remembering the New Deal's
positive impact upon rural areas) of this group supported Vice-President
Humphrey, but most of them would rally behind George C. Wallace and the Alabama
governor's third-party campaign in the general election."

The delegate totals were: Humphrey, 561; Kennedy, 393; McCarthy, 258. When
Kennedy died, his bloc split between McCarthy and McGovern, a late entry. In
the end, Humphrey won on the first ballot.

The riots were covered on TV and America watched as the Chicago Police beat,
tear-gassed, and generally ran amok against anti-war protestors and convention
delegates alike.

It was not the anti-war protesters, but the Democratic Machine which made the
mess in which Nixon got elected. It was, however, the anti-war protestors who
drummed Nixon out of office.

Don't go blaming the anti-war protesters in some revisionist history exercise.
it was the Democratic machine with Mayor Richard Daley as leader, who got Nixon
elected.

From: Eric Oines Date: 2007 Nov 20 03:04 UTC Short link

Well said and true, Wizard.

My Dad was in that crowd in '68 as a "clean Gene" McCarthy supporter.  The
Chicago PD hiararchy was ruled to have instigated a police riot.  Humphrey was
pro-war to the core - hook, line and sinker.

I attended my first political rally that year, watching RFK speak in Rapid
City.

Here is my prediction for next year:

* The vast, vast majority of protesters will be peacesful, will file for
permits, and will stay in their "free speech zone", just as they did in NYC 3
years ago (frustrating and Constitutionally questionable as that is).

* A very small minority of people will cause some trouble.  They will refuse to
be coraled, will knock down a few barricades, maybe break some windows, etc.

* The major media will spend the majority of their time covering the 20 people
who break stuff (showing them being hauled off by St.P./Mpls PD several times
an hour for the duration of the news cycle) instead of the thousands who don't
do anything but follow the rules.

* The major media will also give equal time to the 20 peaceful Republicans who
set up shop across the street in the interest of "fair and balanced".


Eric Oines
Lind-Bohanon

From: Jon Gorder Date: 2007 Nov 20 04:46 UTC Short link

Jim,

    The Hube effectively had his gonads removed by LBJ in 1964 (read Caro's
excellent biography of Johnson). He was strong on civil rights, with one
prescient speech in 1948. Other than that he caved to almost every single cold
war paranoia.
    He could have been president in '68 if he'd walked in his own shoes,
disavowing LBJ's Nam policies but the Happy Warrior talked mush and nonsense
about our "great adventure". He killed his candidacy not a bunch of punks like
me who weren't allowed to vote yet.
    To keep this vaguely on thread---he did make an excellent Mayor.

                                                Jon Gorder
                                                Cathedral Hill
 failed to elect one of the two or three greatest statesmen of the 20th
century.  Hubert H Humphrey.  What could the world have been like without your
efforts and with eight years of Hubert Humphrey as President?

From: Bruce Leier Date: 2007 Nov 20 05:33 UTC Short link

Why Mark, do you plan to make it violent?

Bruce Leier
Powderhorn

Commit random acts of literacy! Read & Release at
http://www.bookcrossing.com/friend/agitator

From: Doug Walter Date: 2007 Nov 20 06:50 UTC Short link

Wizard quotes Wikipedia: "At the time, the Dems [protesters] were split into
four factions:"

Well, I submit that there was a fifth faction; a less committed subgroup, if
you will, of the McCarthy anti-war supporters.  Thousands of young people
like myself that were drawn not primarily for the anti-war protests, but to
the heavily promoted music, the festivals and the general circus it
promised.  I was there as a 17-year old high-school photographer, skipping
out of late summer football camp to join the action.  I _was_ not a fan of
HHH in those days, having serious opposition to his support of LBJ's
policies.  I was more a McCarthy fan by default, and a sorta Nixon type (oh,
the follies of growing up in a solidly Republican family.)

I wasn't even close to the Amphitheatre and the convention when all hell
broke loose. I was with friends and none of us knew Chicago well, but I
think we were in Grant Park, a ways north of Downtown.  I was wandering
around taking pictures when National Guardsmen and police with clubs closed
in on at least 1,000 of us from two sides. (No one at our end of the Park
had been protesting much of anything yet except griping that transit wasn't
running.) We started moving backwards--way too slowly.  A Guardsman ripped
the school's Pentax from me, smashing it on the ground so he could expose
the film. I remember trying to rinse the teargas off my face in a public
fountain before getting whacked and shoved away. Panicked and scared
sh****ss, hundreds of us broke loose and ran for blocks (and right into some
Puerto Rican gang that wisely scrambled out of the way as the herd passed.)


In the next few hours, many of us turned into protesters. That long day and
night not only elevated my political awareness, but built a mistrust of
powerful political dynasties and machines that lasts to this day.

No, It won't be like that here.  We do not have a Richard Daley. And while
we may have a wannabe dynasty in the wings, we have no one with such a
powerful lock on City Hall and national politics at the same time.  We have
our share of incompetence and huff-n-puff, but not that level of power and
corruption.

And Jim, I THANK those protesters, Daley's meltdown, and the damage that it
took Chicago and the Democratic party years to repair.  Because of that
horrendous debacle, the Machine was kicked back, and we will likely never
face such a violation of civil liberties and free speech like that again.

From: Mark V Anderson Date: 2007 Nov 20 15:30 UTC Short link

No, are you?  I hope to stay out of St Paul for those days.  But the
extreme language of the anti-Bushies and the high visibility of the
convention convinces me that there will be plenty of folks there who
want to take "direct action," along with the vast, vast majority of
"non-violent" protesters supporting them all the way.

From: David Brauer Date: 2007 Nov 20 15:57 UTC Short link

OK, folks, we've drifted to Chicago and St. Paul. Time to end the thread. It's
also getting personal.

From: Michael Cavlan Date: 2007 Nov 20 15:58 UTC Short link

I give you all the Twin Cities Indy Media Report of the event. Since the
corporate media is so trustworthy and does such a fine job in informing the
public <note sarcasm>. I did note that Twin Cities Planet did a decent job of
reporting it.

I was proud to be a Peace Marshall there and I was proud of the kids there.
The thing that struck me, given the attacks by some about kids only wanting to
skip class was that they talked about how this war was affecting them, their
schools and their funding. They actually talked about wanting more and better
schools.

Michael Cavlan
Powderhorn

LOCAL News :: Protest / Direct Action : War & Peace
Twin Cities Participates in November Iraq War Moratorium
Author
Anonymous
Date Created
19 Nov 2007
More details...
Youth Against War and Racism and Macalester Students for a Democratic Society
staged anti-war actions in the Twin Cities on November 16th, participating in
the third Iraq War Moratorium. Here are reports from the streets:
Click on image for a larger version

Youth Against War and Racism Walkout

from an organizer:
The Twin Cities area antiwar student walkout yesterday was an inspiring moment.
The energy and loud chants lasted for the entire two mile march and enthusiasm
remained strong until the end the big indoor teach-in at Ausburg College. The
main rally started just after 1pm, but students from across the region kept
pouring into Government Plaza up until the 2pm march, when our counters
estimate between 700-900 students took to the streets (scandalously, the police
told the media there were only 200 of us!). Check out the media reports, video,
and pictures below.

In all, students walked out of over 40 high schools (and middles schools!), as
well as 15 colleges participated in the walkout, with several holding local
rallies or events of their own (at Macalester College, students held antiwar
workshops all day long). The indoor teach-in at Augsburg College started with
students from each school represented giving short, inspired speeches. A lot of
students from outlying areas who walked out were not able to make it to the
main rally and march.

The speeches from the the students were stunning. Magdalena Kaluza from South
High and Tyrus A, YAWR's new staff organizer, MCed the rally. Kelsey Groenke
from Perpich YAWR started spoke first, demanding "Troops Home Now," and
pointing to the growing death toll in Iraq and among soldiers. She was followed
by Mart Banks from Central High YAWR, who spoke to YAWR's demand for "Money for
Jobs and Education, Not War," explaining how the massive military spending is
putting strains on our social programs and putting our generation in debt. Then
Peter Karns from Como High, who recently "un-recrutied" himself, told about the
under-handed tactics military recruiters use, the poverty draft, motivating
YAWR's call for "Military Recruiters Out of Our Schools."

Brandon Day of Iraq Veterans Against the War gave powerful testimony of his
personal experience in combat, the needless death of his friends, and the
criminal lies of the Bush administration. The Ty Moore (yours truly!) of
Socialist Alternative spoke last, explaining the failure of the Democratic
Congress to cut the war funds, and the importance of the walkouts as a pointer
to moving the antiwar movement into active resistance to the war machine. The
indoor teach-in at Augsburg also featured other student speakers, spoken word,
and former military recruiter Mary Horgan who recently joined Iraq Veterans
Against the War.

Out of the walkout, we expect to build several new chapters of Youth Against
War & Racism and step up our campaign to end military recruitment in schools -
through both direct action inside individual schools when recruiters set up
shop, and at the same time, through pressure campaigns on area school boards to
pass restrictions on their access.

Hopefully we will be able to send more reports out in the coming days!
- Ty Moore
for Youth Against War & Racism
www.YAWR.org | myspace.com/yawrMN

MEDIA REPORTS:
Over-all, the much of the mainstream media seems to have really blacked out the
walkout this time. The past two walkouts received prominent coverage on TV
evening news, front page stories in local sections of the two big papers, and
prominent radio coverage. This time, despite a press conference a month in
advance to announce the walkout, the coverage was extremely skimpy. We'll leave
it to you to speculate the reasons for this shift!

Video report for Twin Cities Daily Planet
tcdailyplanet.net/article/2007/11/16/high-school-students-stage-walk-out-demonstration.html

Minnesota Public Radio article
minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/11/16/studentprotest/

Pioneer Press article:
www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_7485882

Photos by Amit (SA activist):
picasaweb.google.com/funwthaks/Nov16AntiWarWalkout

Seattle area YAWR media reports:

Seattle TV news:
www.komotv.com/news/local/11495306.html

TV news from Tacoma counter-recruitment protest:
www.komotv.com/news/11396546.html

The Olympian article:
www.theolympian.com/southsound/story/274032.html

Macalester Students for a Democratic Society Organizes Student Strike

At Macalester College in St. Paul, around 150 students walked out of class at
11am to assemble for a "speakout" against the war. For the rest of the
afternoon students participated in workshops led by faculty, staff, other
students, and community activists. Topics included Anti-War Feminisms, Twin
Cities Anti-War activism, Philosophies of War, Geopolitics, and art.

The strike was the first large-scale action organized by the new Macalester
chapter of Students for a Democratic Society.

After reuniting for a general assembly at 3pm, around 100 strikers decided to
take to the streets at Grand and Snelling during rush hour to achieve the
strike's goal of disrupting "business as usual". Traffic was blocked
intermittently for about 30 minutes as protesters linked arms forming human
barricades and held banners in front of cars.

The Moratorium Continues
Both actions on the 16th were taken as part of the National Iraq War
Moratorium. Participants in the moratorium actions "make a commitment that on
the Third Friday of each and every month, I will break my daily routine and
take some action, by myself or with others, to end the War in Iraq."
(iraqmoratorium.org/)

Related
http://minnesotasds.org
http://www.yawr.org/

From: Bruce Leier Date: 2007 Nov 20 18:10 UTC Short link

I'm just curious about how much you have invested in your predictions.  In
my experience, I have observed that those who make predictions will usually
work hard to see that they are correct.  That is, unless they are just
armchair pundits.  You do strike me as an actor; so what are you going to do
to see that your prognostication is accurate?

Bruce Leier
Powderhorn

Commit random acts of literacy! Read & Release at
http://www.bookcrossing.com/friend/agitator

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anderson&Turpin <email obscured>]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 09:30 AM
> To: 'Minneapolis Issues Forum'
> Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
>
> No, are you?  I hope to stay out of St Paul for those days.  But the
> extreme language of the anti-Bushies and the high visibility of the
> convention convinces me that there will be plenty of folks there who
> want to take "direct action," along with the vast, vast majority of
> "non-violent" protesters supporting them all the way.
>
> Bruce Leier wrote:
> > Why Mark, do you plan to make it violent?
> >
> > Bruce Leier
> > Powderhorn
> >
> > Commit random acts of literacy! Read & Release at
> > http://www.bookcrossing.com/friend/agitator
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Anderson&Turpin <email obscured>]
> >> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 08:45 AM
> >> To: Minneapolis Issues Forum
> >> Subject: Re: [Mpls] YAWR School Walk Out and Impeachment
> >>
> >> Eric Oines wrote:
> >>
> >>> It will be very interesting to see how peaceful demonstration and
> civil
> >>>
> >> disobedience is handled at next year's GOP convention.
> >>
> >>>
> >> Mark Anderson:
> >> I doubt that we'll find out, because I doubt that the demonstrations
> >> will be peaceful.
> >>
> >>
>
>
> Mark V Anderson
> Bancroft, Minneapolis
> Info about Mark V Anderson: http://forums.e-
> democracy.org/contacts/markanderson
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at: http://forums.e-
> democracy.org/r/topic/5KIynpcoKgOVEl9JZOXotj
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