Minneapolis: National Review Poster Child
- 16 posts by 12 authors
- Last post by David Gutknecht at 11:33am, Feb 22, 2021
Keywords:
- police
- riot
- peaceful
- people
- protest
Steve, This is the Same Old, Same Old from Republicans, who think that any
city predominantly Democratic is going to hell in a handbasket A right-wing
screed.
I mean, this thing goes back to Hubert Humphrey and Paul Welstone!
Boooooring.
Connie Sullivan
Como, in DFL-leaning Southeast Minneapolis
Any city (most US cities are now Democratic, or headed that way, even in
Texas!)
On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 9:48 AM Steven Clift <<email obscured>> wrote:
> Enjoy:
>
>
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2021/03/08/minneapolis-is-a-nice-city-no-longer/
city predominantly Democratic is going to hell in a handbasket A right-wing
screed.
I mean, this thing goes back to Hubert Humphrey and Paul Welstone!
Boooooring.
Connie Sullivan
Como, in DFL-leaning Southeast Minneapolis
Any city (most US cities are now Democratic, or headed that way, even in
Texas!)
On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 9:48 AM Steven Clift <<email obscured>> wrote:
> Enjoy:
>
>
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2021/03/08/minneapolis-is-a-nice-city-no-longer/
>
>
> Steven Clift
> Ericsson, Minneapolis
> About/contact Steven Clift: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/stevenclift1
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6MESr0P24oH0yTYn7z40dA
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
>
>
> Steven Clift
> Ericsson, Minneapolis
> About/contact Steven Clift: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/stevenclift1
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6MESr0P24oH0yTYn7z40dA
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
>
Since you had a complaint, Connie, I am waiting to see what news stories
you have found and are going to post toda*y* that meet your standards of
being "post-worthy".
I'm sure other people will be looking for contributions that meet your
standards.
On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 10:04 AM sulli002 University of Minnesota <
<email obscured>> wrote:
> Steve, This is the Same Old, Same Old from Republicans, who think that any
> city predominantly Democratic is going to hell in a handbasket A right-wing
> screed.
>
> I mean, this thing goes back to Hubert Humphrey and Paul Welstone!
>
> Boooooring.
>
> Connie Sullivan
> Como, in DFL-leaning Southeast Minneapolis
>
> Any city (most US cities are now Democratic, or headed that way, even in
> Texas!)
>
> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 9:48 AM Steven Clift <<email obscured>>
> wrote:
>
> > Enjoy:
> >
> >
>
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2021/03/08/minneapolis-is-a-nice-city-no-longer/
you have found and are going to post toda*y* that meet your standards of
being "post-worthy".
I'm sure other people will be looking for contributions that meet your
standards.
On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 10:04 AM sulli002 University of Minnesota <
<email obscured>> wrote:
> Steve, This is the Same Old, Same Old from Republicans, who think that any
> city predominantly Democratic is going to hell in a handbasket A right-wing
> screed.
>
> I mean, this thing goes back to Hubert Humphrey and Paul Welstone!
>
> Boooooring.
>
> Connie Sullivan
> Como, in DFL-leaning Southeast Minneapolis
>
> Any city (most US cities are now Democratic, or headed that way, even in
> Texas!)
>
> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 9:48 AM Steven Clift <<email obscured>>
> wrote:
>
> > Enjoy:
> >
> >
>
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2021/03/08/minneapolis-is-a-nice-city-no-longer/
> >
> >
> > Steven Clift
> > Ericsson, Minneapolis
> > About/contact Steven Clift: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/stevenclift1
> >
> >
> > 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> > If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> > <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
> >
> > 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------
> > Reply: Reply-All or visit
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6MESr0P24oH0yTYn7z40dA
> > New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> > Digest: Subject: digest on
> > Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Connie Sullivan
> Southeast Como, Minneapolis
> About/contact Connie Sullivan:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/conniesullivan
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/bsZ3VtEkLmQEhw4hlLVd5
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
>
--
Emilie Quast
1819 Talmage Ave SE
Minneapolis MN 55414
<email obscured>
> >
> > Steven Clift
> > Ericsson, Minneapolis
> > About/contact Steven Clift: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/stevenclift1
> >
> >
> > 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> > If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> > <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
> >
> > 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------
> > Reply: Reply-All or visit
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6MESr0P24oH0yTYn7z40dA
> > New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> > Digest: Subject: digest on
> > Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Connie Sullivan
> Southeast Como, Minneapolis
> About/contact Connie Sullivan:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/conniesullivan
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/bsZ3VtEkLmQEhw4hlLVd5
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
>
--
Emilie Quast
1819 Talmage Ave SE
Minneapolis MN 55414
<email obscured>
I have said it before, but will repeat it: I have never been a huge fan of
Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey. In the case of the riots and arson following the
murder of George Floyd, however, I completely agree with his decision to pull
back the police from the 3rd precinct and not further engage the peaceful
protesters to that murder. I recognize that there were millions of dollars in
property damage, partly because of that decision. And I am deeply sorry for
those losses, especially including Black, People of Color and immigrant-owned
businesses. East Lake is my library. I ate in more than six of those
restaurants. I bought wine from one of those liquor stores. I shopped at that
Cub, that Aldis, that Target. I went to that post office. This is my
neighborhood.
I further want to acknowledge that the disorder of that time provided an
opening for truly nasty provocation by Proud Boys, Boogaloo Bois, and the like.
It was also probably inevitable that any number of local and not-so-local
people came to loot or just to have a nice time destroying things. If you
doubt who the true provocateurs were, please check out the press releases of
the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms as well as our local office of the U.S.
Attorney. I have been following these sites fairly closely and have found
almost no arrestees who could even possibly be called "antifa."; to date, I
have seen only a single arrest of one person who might have left-leaning
sympathies. If you look carefully, you will even notice practically no People
of Color among the actual rioters (though that is not true of the looters). A
very large number of the arrested so far, in fact, came from outside Minnesota
and nearly all of the serious crimes charged gave addresses outside the Twin
Cities. Check it out yourself, if you don't believe me.
On the other side, though, we have to consider how many lives would have been
lost if the 3rd precinct had NOT been abandoned, or if a more massive police
mobilization had occurred. As it was, two people died in or near pawn shops,
one burned to death and one shot by the manager (a killing which has not been
charged, as far as I know). Tragically, the initial police response to the
huge public outcry over their brutality was more brutality. People were shot
in the eye. Compliant people were thrown to the ground and suffered
concussions. Tires on parked cars were sliced by racist sheriff deputies from
Anoka county. Those who witnessed the initial police reaction inevitably
describe it as provocative. It can easily be argued that a continued police
presence would have resulted in more violence, more deaths, even more property
destruction. Let's say that we witnessed only a dozen additional deaths during
that time. How much was each of those lost lives worth? How much would it be
worth if it was your son, your mother, your friend? How much you be willing to
risk additional arsons and rioting if it involved your house, your neighbor's
house?
We can spend a lot of time speculating about whose blame this all is, but
frankly blaming Black people or some wild-eyed young anarchists is completely
unsupported by the facts so far. The problem under all of this is that the
murder of George Floyd made it quite clear that people do not trust the police
to "protect and serve" them. I am sorry that so many suburban officers were
traumatized by that realization and are now on PTSD disability. I am sorry
that other suburban police officers have engaged in a vindictive Blue Flu,
leaving our neighborhoods to the mercy of porch pirates, car-jackers and
catalytic converter thieves.
Isn't this better, however, than the bloodshed which would have occurred had
the police organized essential firing squads on us last June? Isn't it also
clear that we will see no improvement in our public safety until we completely
re-organize out response to urgent crises and until the police officers
themselves start treating ALL us us with the consideration we deserve, not just
white people.
Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey. In the case of the riots and arson following the
murder of George Floyd, however, I completely agree with his decision to pull
back the police from the 3rd precinct and not further engage the peaceful
protesters to that murder. I recognize that there were millions of dollars in
property damage, partly because of that decision. And I am deeply sorry for
those losses, especially including Black, People of Color and immigrant-owned
businesses. East Lake is my library. I ate in more than six of those
restaurants. I bought wine from one of those liquor stores. I shopped at that
Cub, that Aldis, that Target. I went to that post office. This is my
neighborhood.
I further want to acknowledge that the disorder of that time provided an
opening for truly nasty provocation by Proud Boys, Boogaloo Bois, and the like.
It was also probably inevitable that any number of local and not-so-local
people came to loot or just to have a nice time destroying things. If you
doubt who the true provocateurs were, please check out the press releases of
the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms as well as our local office of the U.S.
Attorney. I have been following these sites fairly closely and have found
almost no arrestees who could even possibly be called "antifa."; to date, I
have seen only a single arrest of one person who might have left-leaning
sympathies. If you look carefully, you will even notice practically no People
of Color among the actual rioters (though that is not true of the looters). A
very large number of the arrested so far, in fact, came from outside Minnesota
and nearly all of the serious crimes charged gave addresses outside the Twin
Cities. Check it out yourself, if you don't believe me.
On the other side, though, we have to consider how many lives would have been
lost if the 3rd precinct had NOT been abandoned, or if a more massive police
mobilization had occurred. As it was, two people died in or near pawn shops,
one burned to death and one shot by the manager (a killing which has not been
charged, as far as I know). Tragically, the initial police response to the
huge public outcry over their brutality was more brutality. People were shot
in the eye. Compliant people were thrown to the ground and suffered
concussions. Tires on parked cars were sliced by racist sheriff deputies from
Anoka county. Those who witnessed the initial police reaction inevitably
describe it as provocative. It can easily be argued that a continued police
presence would have resulted in more violence, more deaths, even more property
destruction. Let's say that we witnessed only a dozen additional deaths during
that time. How much was each of those lost lives worth? How much would it be
worth if it was your son, your mother, your friend? How much you be willing to
risk additional arsons and rioting if it involved your house, your neighbor's
house?
We can spend a lot of time speculating about whose blame this all is, but
frankly blaming Black people or some wild-eyed young anarchists is completely
unsupported by the facts so far. The problem under all of this is that the
murder of George Floyd made it quite clear that people do not trust the police
to "protect and serve" them. I am sorry that so many suburban officers were
traumatized by that realization and are now on PTSD disability. I am sorry
that other suburban police officers have engaged in a vindictive Blue Flu,
leaving our neighborhoods to the mercy of porch pirates, car-jackers and
catalytic converter thieves.
Isn't this better, however, than the bloodshed which would have occurred had
the police organized essential firing squads on us last June? Isn't it also
clear that we will see no improvement in our public safety until we completely
re-organize out response to urgent crises and until the police officers
themselves start treating ALL us us with the consideration we deserve, not just
white people.
I liked the National Review article and Charley Underwood's posts.
Kevin Williamson is well informed on Minneapolis and MN politics. The Twin
Cities don't dominate the state. There wasn't as much entertaining hyperbole as
in his well known Trump articles. Kevin WIlkinson welcomed Trump to the race
with a column "Witless Ape Rides Escalator" and "Witless Ape Rides Helicopter"
when he left office.
Minneapolis has already gone to hell in a handbasket.
Jacob Frey, Tim Walz and the National Guard learned from their mistakes. The
mobilization and deployment of the Guard was slow until Walz took direct
control.
I love time travel and alternative history. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. If only we
had known about Pearl Harbor, 9/11, Covid 19 and the riots in the Twin Cities
and the Capitol.
Seeing the Capitol riot reminded me of the riot back home. The never ending
nightmare. The Capitol riot was incited by Trump. Blue city officials didn't
do enough to stop riots, especially in Portland. But they didn't incite the
riots. Discrediting the police has so many terrible consequences. I've written
about THE CYCLE before. The cycle alternates between demands for more police
and complaints about police brutality.
The riots and the defunding movement had a really big effect on Congressional
races.
Ed Fesler <email obscured> Corcoran neighborhood
Kevin Williamson is well informed on Minneapolis and MN politics. The Twin
Cities don't dominate the state. There wasn't as much entertaining hyperbole as
in his well known Trump articles. Kevin WIlkinson welcomed Trump to the race
with a column "Witless Ape Rides Escalator" and "Witless Ape Rides Helicopter"
when he left office.
Minneapolis has already gone to hell in a handbasket.
Jacob Frey, Tim Walz and the National Guard learned from their mistakes. The
mobilization and deployment of the Guard was slow until Walz took direct
control.
I love time travel and alternative history. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. If only we
had known about Pearl Harbor, 9/11, Covid 19 and the riots in the Twin Cities
and the Capitol.
Seeing the Capitol riot reminded me of the riot back home. The never ending
nightmare. The Capitol riot was incited by Trump. Blue city officials didn't
do enough to stop riots, especially in Portland. But they didn't incite the
riots. Discrediting the police has so many terrible consequences. I've written
about THE CYCLE before. The cycle alternates between demands for more police
and complaints about police brutality.
The riots and the defunding movement had a really big effect on Congressional
races.
Ed Fesler <email obscured> Corcoran neighborhood
________________________________
From: Minneapolis Issues Forum <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org> on behalf of
Charley Underwood <<email obscured>>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 12:59 PM
To: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org>
Subject: Re: [Mpls] Minneapolis: National Review Poster Child
I have said it before, but will repeat it: I have never been a huge fan of
Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey. In the case of the riots and arson following the
murder of George Floyd, however, I completely agree with his decision to pull
back the police from the 3rd precinct and not further engage the peaceful
protesters to that murder. I recognize that there were millions of dollars in
property damage, partly because of that decision. And I am deeply sorry for
those losses, especially including Black, People of Color and immigrant-owned
businesses. East Lake is my library. I ate in more than six of those
restaurants. I bought wine from one of those liquor stores. I shopped at that
Cub, that Aldis, that Target. I went to that post office. This is my
neighborhood.
I further want to acknowledge that the disorder of that time provided an
opening for truly nasty provocation by Proud Boys, Boogaloo Bois, and the like.
It was also probably inevitable that any number of local and not-so-local
people came to loot or just to have a nice time destroying things. If you
doubt who the true provocateurs were, please check out the press releases of
the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms as well as our local office of the U.S.
Attorney. I have been following these sites fairly closely and have found
almost no arrestees who could even possibly be called "antifa."; to date, I
have seen only a single arrest of one person who might have left-leaning
sympathies. If you look carefully, you will even notice practically no People
of Color among the actual rioters (though that is not true of the looters). A
very large number of the arrested so far, in fact, came from outside Minnesota
and nearly all of the serious crimes charged gave addresses outside the Twin
Cities. Check it out yourself, if you don't believe me.
On the other side, though, we have to consider how many lives would have been
lost if the 3rd precinct had NOT been abandoned, or if a more massive police
mobilization had occurred. As it was, two people died in or near pawn shops,
one burned to death and one shot by the manager (a killing which has not been
charged, as far as I know). Tragically, the initial police response to the
huge public outcry over their brutality was more brutality. People were shot
in the eye. Compliant people were thrown to the ground and suffered
concussions. Tires on parked cars were sliced by racist sheriff deputies from
Anoka county. Those who witnessed the initial police reaction inevitably
describe it as provocative. It can easily be argued that a continued police
presence would have resulted in more violence, more deaths, even more property
destruction. Let's say that we witnessed only a dozen additional deaths during
that time. How much was each of those lost lives worth? How much would it be
worth if it was your son, your mother, your friend? How much you be willing to
risk additional arsons and rioting if it involved your house, your neighbor's
house?
We can spend a lot of time speculating about whose blame this all is, but
frankly blaming Black people or some wild-eyed young anarchists is completely
unsupported by the facts so far. The problem under all of this is that the
murder of George Floyd made it quite clear that people do not trust the police
to "protect and serve" them. I am sorry that so many suburban officers were
traumatized by that realization and are now on PTSD disability. I am sorry
that other suburban police officers have engaged in a vindictive Blue Flu,
leaving our neighborhoods to the mercy of porch pirates, car-jackers and
catalytic converter thieves.
Isn't this better, however, than the bloodshed which would have occurred had
the police organized essential firing squads on us last June? Isn't it also
clear that we will see no improvement in our public safety until we completely
re-organize out response to urgent crises and until the police officers
themselves start treating ALL us us with the consideration we deserve, not just
white people.
Charley Underwood
Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
About/contact Charley Underwood:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charleyunderwood
1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
<email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
------------------------
Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/91qATJBmGeKxuqLRikpFj
New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
Digest: Subject: digest on
Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
From: Minneapolis Issues Forum <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org> on behalf of
Charley Underwood <<email obscured>>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 12:59 PM
To: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org>
Subject: Re: [Mpls] Minneapolis: National Review Poster Child
I have said it before, but will repeat it: I have never been a huge fan of
Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey. In the case of the riots and arson following the
murder of George Floyd, however, I completely agree with his decision to pull
back the police from the 3rd precinct and not further engage the peaceful
protesters to that murder. I recognize that there were millions of dollars in
property damage, partly because of that decision. And I am deeply sorry for
those losses, especially including Black, People of Color and immigrant-owned
businesses. East Lake is my library. I ate in more than six of those
restaurants. I bought wine from one of those liquor stores. I shopped at that
Cub, that Aldis, that Target. I went to that post office. This is my
neighborhood.
I further want to acknowledge that the disorder of that time provided an
opening for truly nasty provocation by Proud Boys, Boogaloo Bois, and the like.
It was also probably inevitable that any number of local and not-so-local
people came to loot or just to have a nice time destroying things. If you
doubt who the true provocateurs were, please check out the press releases of
the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms as well as our local office of the U.S.
Attorney. I have been following these sites fairly closely and have found
almost no arrestees who could even possibly be called "antifa."; to date, I
have seen only a single arrest of one person who might have left-leaning
sympathies. If you look carefully, you will even notice practically no People
of Color among the actual rioters (though that is not true of the looters). A
very large number of the arrested so far, in fact, came from outside Minnesota
and nearly all of the serious crimes charged gave addresses outside the Twin
Cities. Check it out yourself, if you don't believe me.
On the other side, though, we have to consider how many lives would have been
lost if the 3rd precinct had NOT been abandoned, or if a more massive police
mobilization had occurred. As it was, two people died in or near pawn shops,
one burned to death and one shot by the manager (a killing which has not been
charged, as far as I know). Tragically, the initial police response to the
huge public outcry over their brutality was more brutality. People were shot
in the eye. Compliant people were thrown to the ground and suffered
concussions. Tires on parked cars were sliced by racist sheriff deputies from
Anoka county. Those who witnessed the initial police reaction inevitably
describe it as provocative. It can easily be argued that a continued police
presence would have resulted in more violence, more deaths, even more property
destruction. Let's say that we witnessed only a dozen additional deaths during
that time. How much was each of those lost lives worth? How much would it be
worth if it was your son, your mother, your friend? How much you be willing to
risk additional arsons and rioting if it involved your house, your neighbor's
house?
We can spend a lot of time speculating about whose blame this all is, but
frankly blaming Black people or some wild-eyed young anarchists is completely
unsupported by the facts so far. The problem under all of this is that the
murder of George Floyd made it quite clear that people do not trust the police
to "protect and serve" them. I am sorry that so many suburban officers were
traumatized by that realization and are now on PTSD disability. I am sorry
that other suburban police officers have engaged in a vindictive Blue Flu,
leaving our neighborhoods to the mercy of porch pirates, car-jackers and
catalytic converter thieves.
Isn't this better, however, than the bloodshed which would have occurred had
the police organized essential firing squads on us last June? Isn't it also
clear that we will see no improvement in our public safety until we completely
re-organize out response to urgent crises and until the police officers
themselves start treating ALL us us with the consideration we deserve, not just
white people.
Charley Underwood
Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
About/contact Charley Underwood:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charleyunderwood
1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
<email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
------------------------
Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/91qATJBmGeKxuqLRikpFj
New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
Digest: Subject: digest on
Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
The National Review site, which I haven't visited in months, is telling me I'm
out of free articles. As much or as little as I'd like to, a subscription to
the National Review isn't in my budget.
Maybe a good definition of "post-worthy" is something that doesn't require a
subscription to The National Review.
out of free articles. As much or as little as I'd like to, a subscription to
the National Review isn't in my budget.
Maybe a good definition of "post-worthy" is something that doesn't require a
subscription to The National Review.
Charley Underwood wrote: "I have never been a huge fan of Minneapolis mayor
Jacob Frey. In the case of the riots and arson following the murder of George
Floyd, however, I completely agree with his decision to pull back the police
from the 3rd precinct and not further engage the peaceful protesters to that
murder."
Me: If the protestors were peaceful, why was there a need to abandon the 3rd
precinct?
Jacob Frey. In the case of the riots and arson following the murder of George
Floyd, however, I completely agree with his decision to pull back the police
from the 3rd precinct and not further engage the peaceful protesters to that
murder."
Me: If the protestors were peaceful, why was there a need to abandon the 3rd
precinct?
Many of my daily feeds from the Star Tribune sit behind paywalls. We have been
paper copy subscribers for years but that subscription does not include the
digital copy. Rip off.
Sent from iPad
John Ferman
Minneapolis, MN
My doctor says I have a malformed public-duty gland and as a result have a
severe morale fibre deficiency, so I should not be expected to save the world."
> On Feb 19, 2021, at 8:54 PM, Sheldon Gitis <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> The National Review site, which I haven't visited in months, is telling me
I'm out of free articles. As much or as little as I'd like to, a subscription
to the National Review isn't in my budget.
>
> Maybe a good definition of "post-worthy" is something that doesn't require a
subscription to The National Review.
>
> Sheldon Gitis
> Roseville
> About/contact Sheldon Gitis: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/sheldongitis1
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/44sEaBUUdnKymGyMe6CPfR
paper copy subscribers for years but that subscription does not include the
digital copy. Rip off.
Sent from iPad
John Ferman
Minneapolis, MN
My doctor says I have a malformed public-duty gland and as a result have a
severe morale fibre deficiency, so I should not be expected to save the world."
> On Feb 19, 2021, at 8:54 PM, Sheldon Gitis <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> The National Review site, which I haven't visited in months, is telling me
I'm out of free articles. As much or as little as I'd like to, a subscription
to the National Review isn't in my budget.
>
> Maybe a good definition of "post-worthy" is something that doesn't require a
subscription to The National Review.
>
> Sheldon Gitis
> Roseville
> About/contact Sheldon Gitis: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/sheldongitis1
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/44sEaBUUdnKymGyMe6CPfR
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
I agree with Brian. If you are standing there peacefully protesting but the
person next to you is shooting fireworks at a cop, are you a peaceful
protester? No you are not.
Frey did not abandon the Third Precinct to peaceful protesters - he abandoned
it to a mob who violently chased the police several blocks, ransacked the
building and then burned it. That is not “peaceful” by any stretch of the
imagination. I believe they would have killed those cops if they caught them.
Progressives like you need to own that.
As to the “provocateurs” all being white, that is also false. I can say at the
HiLake Mall, virtually everyone I saw on the first day and everyone on the
second day except the guys who hauled in the propane tanks were people of
color. I have pictures if you want them. I know none of them got arrested.
As to how many more lives would have been lost had the Third Precinct not been
abandoned, I guess I dont get the reasoning. What I saw when I went to the
Third Precinct was not peaceful protest - I saw people being violent - violence
that ended up in an attempt to physically harm the police, which didnt happen
because they literally ran for their lives. Right before that, they literally
had called their families and said their last goodbyes because they were sure
they would have been killed. It is simply a false narrative that the people at
the Third Precinct were peaceful. And again, I have pictures. I am happy to
show them. I am deeply sorry that people got hurt when they were attempting to
do harm to those police and their building but there is no way to call that a
peaceful protest.
What would have been best would have been effective crowd control like we saw
at subsequent protests. They didnt deevolve into riots because police were
there. The riots happened because people believed that there would be no
consequences to their actions. Literally one looter said to his companions “So
where do you want to loot next?” Because there were no consequences because the
police were understaffed. If we had effective policing, where people knew
there would be consequences, there wouldnt have been the arson, there wouldnt
have been some guy shooting a guy breaking into his store, etc. And no, having
over 2,000 businesses harmed - that isnt an acceptable tradeoff. Effective
crowd control keeps everyone safe.
I am not sure how you get to firing squads in all of this but your basic
premise is just wrong. This isnt a debate between a peaceful, almost pastoral
populace and a violent evil police force. I believe you, Charlie, are an
eminently peaceful person and think that everyone is like you. But they just
are not. There are bad people in the world. And there are good people who do
bad things in the moment. And no amount of social workers and mental health
professionals will stop them. That is the real debate here. Progressives who
do not experience much crime, dont acknowledge that there are bad people out
there. They offer no solutions on how to deal with these people. The guy who
has come to my house three times to steal from me is violent and has been a
thief for at least 15 years, from what I have been able to google. I am not
safe because there are not enough police officers to remove him from the
streets. Charlie, what alternative do you offer to deal with him?
Carol Becker
person next to you is shooting fireworks at a cop, are you a peaceful
protester? No you are not.
Frey did not abandon the Third Precinct to peaceful protesters - he abandoned
it to a mob who violently chased the police several blocks, ransacked the
building and then burned it. That is not “peaceful” by any stretch of the
imagination. I believe they would have killed those cops if they caught them.
Progressives like you need to own that.
As to the “provocateurs” all being white, that is also false. I can say at the
HiLake Mall, virtually everyone I saw on the first day and everyone on the
second day except the guys who hauled in the propane tanks were people of
color. I have pictures if you want them. I know none of them got arrested.
As to how many more lives would have been lost had the Third Precinct not been
abandoned, I guess I dont get the reasoning. What I saw when I went to the
Third Precinct was not peaceful protest - I saw people being violent - violence
that ended up in an attempt to physically harm the police, which didnt happen
because they literally ran for their lives. Right before that, they literally
had called their families and said their last goodbyes because they were sure
they would have been killed. It is simply a false narrative that the people at
the Third Precinct were peaceful. And again, I have pictures. I am happy to
show them. I am deeply sorry that people got hurt when they were attempting to
do harm to those police and their building but there is no way to call that a
peaceful protest.
What would have been best would have been effective crowd control like we saw
at subsequent protests. They didnt deevolve into riots because police were
there. The riots happened because people believed that there would be no
consequences to their actions. Literally one looter said to his companions “So
where do you want to loot next?” Because there were no consequences because the
police were understaffed. If we had effective policing, where people knew
there would be consequences, there wouldnt have been the arson, there wouldnt
have been some guy shooting a guy breaking into his store, etc. And no, having
over 2,000 businesses harmed - that isnt an acceptable tradeoff. Effective
crowd control keeps everyone safe.
I am not sure how you get to firing squads in all of this but your basic
premise is just wrong. This isnt a debate between a peaceful, almost pastoral
populace and a violent evil police force. I believe you, Charlie, are an
eminently peaceful person and think that everyone is like you. But they just
are not. There are bad people in the world. And there are good people who do
bad things in the moment. And no amount of social workers and mental health
professionals will stop them. That is the real debate here. Progressives who
do not experience much crime, dont acknowledge that there are bad people out
there. They offer no solutions on how to deal with these people. The guy who
has come to my house three times to steal from me is violent and has been a
thief for at least 15 years, from what I have been able to google. I am not
safe because there are not enough police officers to remove him from the
streets. Charlie, what alternative do you offer to deal with him?
Carol Becker
> On Feb 19, 2021, at 1:00 PM, Charley Underwood <<email obscured>>
wrote:
>
> I have said it before, but will repeat it: I have never been a huge fan of
Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey. In the case of the riots and arson following the
murder of George Floyd, however, I completely agree with his decision to pull
back the police from the 3rd precinct and not further engage the peaceful
protesters to that murder. I recognize that there were millions of dollars in
property damage, partly because of that decision. And I am deeply sorry for
those losses, especially including Black, People of Color and immigrant-owned
businesses. East Lake is my library. I ate in more than six of those
restaurants. I bought wine from one of those liquor stores. I shopped at that
Cub, that Aldis, that Target. I went to that post office. This is my
neighborhood.
>
> I further want to acknowledge that the disorder of that time provided an
opening for truly nasty provocation by Proud Boys, Boogaloo Bois, and the like.
It was also probably inevitable that any number of local and not-so-local
people came to loot or just to have a nice time destroying things. If you
doubt who the true provocateurs were, please check out the press releases of
the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms as well as our local office of the U.S.
Attorney. I have been following these sites fairly closely and have found
almost no arrestees who could even possibly be called "antifa."; to date, I
have seen only a single arrest of one person who might have left-leaning
sympathies. If you look carefully, you will even notice practically no People
of Color among the actual rioters (though that is not true of the looters). A
very large number of the arrested so far, in fact, came from outside Minnesota
and nearly all of the serious crimes charged gave addresses outside the Twin
Cities. Check it out yourself, if you don't believe me.
>
> On the other side, though, we have to consider how many lives would have been
lost if the 3rd precinct had NOT been abandoned, or if a more massive police
mobilization had occurred. As it was, two people died in or near pawn shops,
one burned to death and one shot by the manager (a killing which has not been
charged, as far as I know). Tragically, the initial police response to the
huge public outcry over their brutality was more brutality. People were shot
in the eye. Compliant people were thrown to the ground and suffered
concussions. Tires on parked cars were sliced by racist sheriff deputies from
Anoka county. Those who witnessed the initial police reaction inevitably
describe it as provocative. It can easily be argued that a continued police
presence would have resulted in more violence, more deaths, even more property
destruction. Let's say that we witnessed only a dozen additional deaths during
that time. How much was each of those lost lives worth? How much would it be
worth if it was your son, your mother, your friend? How much you be willing to
risk additional arsons and rioting if it involved your house, your neighbor's
house?
>
> We can spend a lot of time speculating about whose blame this all is, but
frankly blaming Black people or some wild-eyed young anarchists is completely
unsupported by the facts so far. The problem under all of this is that the
murder of George Floyd made it quite clear that people do not trust the police
to "protect and serve" them. I am sorry that so many suburban officers were
traumatized by that realization and are now on PTSD disability. I am sorry
that other suburban police officers have engaged in a vindictive Blue Flu,
leaving our neighborhoods to the mercy of porch pirates, car-jackers and
catalytic converter thieves.
>
> Isn't this better, however, than the bloodshed which would have occurred had
the police organized essential firing squads on us last June? Isn't it also
clear that we will see no improvement in our public safety until we completely
re-organize out response to urgent crises and until the police officers
themselves start treating ALL us us with the consideration we deserve, not just
white people.
>
> Charley Underwood
> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
> About/contact Charley Underwood:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charleyunderwood
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/91qATJBmGeKxuqLRikpFj
wrote:
>
> I have said it before, but will repeat it: I have never been a huge fan of
Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey. In the case of the riots and arson following the
murder of George Floyd, however, I completely agree with his decision to pull
back the police from the 3rd precinct and not further engage the peaceful
protesters to that murder. I recognize that there were millions of dollars in
property damage, partly because of that decision. And I am deeply sorry for
those losses, especially including Black, People of Color and immigrant-owned
businesses. East Lake is my library. I ate in more than six of those
restaurants. I bought wine from one of those liquor stores. I shopped at that
Cub, that Aldis, that Target. I went to that post office. This is my
neighborhood.
>
> I further want to acknowledge that the disorder of that time provided an
opening for truly nasty provocation by Proud Boys, Boogaloo Bois, and the like.
It was also probably inevitable that any number of local and not-so-local
people came to loot or just to have a nice time destroying things. If you
doubt who the true provocateurs were, please check out the press releases of
the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms as well as our local office of the U.S.
Attorney. I have been following these sites fairly closely and have found
almost no arrestees who could even possibly be called "antifa."; to date, I
have seen only a single arrest of one person who might have left-leaning
sympathies. If you look carefully, you will even notice practically no People
of Color among the actual rioters (though that is not true of the looters). A
very large number of the arrested so far, in fact, came from outside Minnesota
and nearly all of the serious crimes charged gave addresses outside the Twin
Cities. Check it out yourself, if you don't believe me.
>
> On the other side, though, we have to consider how many lives would have been
lost if the 3rd precinct had NOT been abandoned, or if a more massive police
mobilization had occurred. As it was, two people died in or near pawn shops,
one burned to death and one shot by the manager (a killing which has not been
charged, as far as I know). Tragically, the initial police response to the
huge public outcry over their brutality was more brutality. People were shot
in the eye. Compliant people were thrown to the ground and suffered
concussions. Tires on parked cars were sliced by racist sheriff deputies from
Anoka county. Those who witnessed the initial police reaction inevitably
describe it as provocative. It can easily be argued that a continued police
presence would have resulted in more violence, more deaths, even more property
destruction. Let's say that we witnessed only a dozen additional deaths during
that time. How much was each of those lost lives worth? How much would it be
worth if it was your son, your mother, your friend? How much you be willing to
risk additional arsons and rioting if it involved your house, your neighbor's
house?
>
> We can spend a lot of time speculating about whose blame this all is, but
frankly blaming Black people or some wild-eyed young anarchists is completely
unsupported by the facts so far. The problem under all of this is that the
murder of George Floyd made it quite clear that people do not trust the police
to "protect and serve" them. I am sorry that so many suburban officers were
traumatized by that realization and are now on PTSD disability. I am sorry
that other suburban police officers have engaged in a vindictive Blue Flu,
leaving our neighborhoods to the mercy of porch pirates, car-jackers and
catalytic converter thieves.
>
> Isn't this better, however, than the bloodshed which would have occurred had
the police organized essential firing squads on us last June? Isn't it also
clear that we will see no improvement in our public safety until we completely
re-organize out response to urgent crises and until the police officers
themselves start treating ALL us us with the consideration we deserve, not just
white people.
>
> Charley Underwood
> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
> About/contact Charley Underwood:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charleyunderwood
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/91qATJBmGeKxuqLRikpFj
In a preview of the outrageous attempt to interfere with Congress a few weeks
later, protests of racist policing and peaceful demonstration for or against
the idea that Trump won the election, police and demonstrators were infiltrated
by violent white supremist conspirators. In Mpls there were
counter-protestors.
At this point, we still do not know the whole story about Chauvin and Floyd,
and one reason is that some details are missing that were likely destroyed in
the precinct house fire. I hope Atty Gen Ellison has at least some evidence ...
I do not know who may have advised Mayor Frey to withdraw the Minneapolis
Police or their or his reasoning. I do see some logic in the idea that if the
mob had not intended violence and no capitol police expected it, or if the
demonstrators were not infiltrated and no Minneapolis police expected fires and
damage, looting or injury --well things would have been different. in both
incidents.
later, protests of racist policing and peaceful demonstration for or against
the idea that Trump won the election, police and demonstrators were infiltrated
by violent white supremist conspirators. In Mpls there were
counter-protestors.
At this point, we still do not know the whole story about Chauvin and Floyd,
and one reason is that some details are missing that were likely destroyed in
the precinct house fire. I hope Atty Gen Ellison has at least some evidence ...
I do not know who may have advised Mayor Frey to withdraw the Minneapolis
Police or their or his reasoning. I do see some logic in the idea that if the
mob had not intended violence and no capitol police expected it, or if the
demonstrators were not infiltrated and no Minneapolis police expected fires and
damage, looting or injury --well things would have been different. in both
incidents.
When thousands of people are at the precinct, chanting "say his name" and
holding signs and generally just protesting, and a few people are doing illegal
things, I think it is unfair hyperbole to say they are not peaceful.
The crowd had limited ability (to control what the more militant you g people
were doing in the heat of the moment. Were there provocateurs? Possibly, even
probably, but I don’t see how that changes the calculus.
Watch the beginning of the video scenes from the third precinct.
David Tilsen
612-281-8576
holding signs and generally just protesting, and a few people are doing illegal
things, I think it is unfair hyperbole to say they are not peaceful.
The crowd had limited ability (to control what the more militant you g people
were doing in the heat of the moment. Were there provocateurs? Possibly, even
probably, but I don’t see how that changes the calculus.
Watch the beginning of the video scenes from the third precinct.
David Tilsen
612-281-8576
________________________________
From: Minneapolis Issues Forum <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org> on behalf of
BeckerMpls <<email obscured>>
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2021 9:56:05 AM
To: <email obscured> <<email obscured>>
Cc: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org>
Subject: Re: [Mpls] Minneapolis: National Review Poster Child
I agree with Brian. If you are standing there peacefully protesting but the
person next to you is shooting fireworks at a cop, are you a peaceful
protester? No you are not.
Frey did not abandon the Third Precinct to peaceful protesters - he abandoned
it to a mob who violently chased the police several blocks, ransacked the
building and then burned it. That is not “peaceful” by any stretch of the
imagination. I believe they would have killed those cops if they caught them.
Progressives like you need to own that.
As to the “provocateurs” all being white, that is also false. I can say at the
HiLake Mall, virtually everyone I saw on the first day and everyone on the
second day except the guys who hauled in the propane tanks were people of
color. I have pictures if you want them. I know none of them got arrested.
As to how many more lives would have been lost had the Third Precinct not been
abandoned, I guess I dont get the reasoning. What I saw when I went to the
Third Precinct was not peaceful protest - I saw people being violent - violence
that ended up in an attempt to physically harm the police, which didnt happen
because they literally ran for their lives. Right before that, they literally
had called their families and said their last goodbyes because they were sure
they would have been killed. It is simply a false narrative that the people at
the Third Precinct were peaceful. And again, I have pictures. I am happy to
show them. I am deeply sorry that people got hurt when they were attempting to
do harm to those police and their building but there is no way to call that a
peaceful protest.
What would have been best would have been effective crowd control like we saw
at subsequent protests. They didnt deevolve into riots because police were
there. The riots happened because people believed that there would be no
consequences to their actions. Literally one looter said to his companions “So
where do you want to loot next?” Because there were no consequences because the
police were understaffed. If we had effective policing, where people knew
there would be consequences, there wouldnt have been the arson, there wouldnt
have been some guy shooting a guy breaking into his store, etc. And no, having
over 2,000 businesses harmed - that isnt an acceptable tradeoff. Effective
crowd control keeps everyone safe.
I am not sure how you get to firing squads in all of this but your basic
premise is just wrong. This isnt a debate between a peaceful, almost pastoral
populace and a violent evil police force. I believe you, Charlie, are an
eminently peaceful person and think that everyone is like you. But they just
are not. There are bad people in the world. And there are good people who do
bad things in the moment. And no amount of social workers and mental health
professionals will stop them. That is the real debate here. Progressives who
do not experience much crime, dont acknowledge that there are bad people out
there. They offer no solutions on how to deal with these people. The guy who
has come to my house three times to steal from me is violent and has been a
thief for at least 15 years, from what I have been able to google. I am not
safe because there are not enough police officers to remove him from the
streets. Charlie, what alternative do you offer to deal with him?
Carol Becker
> On Feb 19, 2021, at 1:00 PM, Charley Underwood <<email obscured>>
wrote:
>
> I have said it before, but will repeat it: I have never been a huge fan of
Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey. In the case of the riots and arson following the
murder of George Floyd, however, I completely agree with his decision to pull
back the police from the 3rd precinct and not further engage the peaceful
protesters to that murder. I recognize that there were millions of dollars in
property damage, partly because of that decision. And I am deeply sorry for
those losses, especially including Black, People of Color and immigrant-owned
businesses. East Lake is my library. I ate in more than six of those
restaurants. I bought wine from one of those liquor stores. I shopped at that
Cub, that Aldis, that Target. I went to that post office. This is my
neighborhood.
>
> I further want to acknowledge that the disorder of that time provided an
opening for truly nasty provocation by Proud Boys, Boogaloo Bois, and the like.
It was also probably inevitable that any number of local and not-so-local
people came to loot or just to have a nice time destroying things. If you
doubt who the true provocateurs were, please check out the press releases of
the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms as well as our local office of the U.S.
Attorney. I have been following these sites fairly closely and have found
almost no arrestees who could even possibly be called "antifa."; to date, I
have seen only a single arrest of one person who might have left-leaning
sympathies. If you look carefully, you will even notice practically no People
of Color among the actual rioters (though that is not true of the looters). A
very large number of the arrested so far, in fact, came from outside Minnesota
and nearly all of the serious crimes charged gave addresses outside the Twin
Cities. Check it out yourself, if you don't believe me.
>
> On the other side, though, we have to consider how many lives would have been
lost if the 3rd precinct had NOT been abandoned, or if a more massive police
mobilization had occurred. As it was, two people died in or near pawn shops,
one burned to death and one shot by the manager (a killing which has not been
charged, as far as I know). Tragically, the initial police response to the
huge public outcry over their brutality was more brutality. People were shot
in the eye. Compliant people were thrown to the ground and suffered
concussions. Tires on parked cars were sliced by racist sheriff deputies from
Anoka county. Those who witnessed the initial police reaction inevitably
describe it as provocative. It can easily be argued that a continued police
presence would have resulted in more violence, more deaths, even more property
destruction. Let's say that we witnessed only a dozen additional deaths during
that time. How much was each of those lost lives worth? How much would it be
worth if it was your son, your mother, your friend? How much you be willing to
risk additional arsons and rioting if it involved your house, your neighbor's
house?
>
> We can spend a lot of time speculating about whose blame this all is, but
frankly blaming Black people or some wild-eyed young anarchists is completely
unsupported by the facts so far. The problem under all of this is that the
murder of George Floyd made it quite clear that people do not trust the police
to "protect and serve" them. I am sorry that so many suburban officers were
traumatized by that realization and are now on PTSD disability. I am sorry
that other suburban police officers have engaged in a vindictive Blue Flu,
leaving our neighborhoods to the mercy of porch pirates, car-jackers and
catalytic converter thieves.
>
> Isn't this better, however, than the bloodshed which would have occurred had
the police organized essential firing squads on us last June? Isn't it also
clear that we will see no improvement in our public safety until we completely
re-organize out response to urgent crises and until the police officers
themselves start treating ALL us us with the consideration we deserve, not just
white people.
>
> Charley Underwood
> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
> About/contact Charley Underwood:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charleyunderwood
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/91qATJBmGeKxuqLRikpFj
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
Carol Becker
Longfellow, Minneapolis
About/contact Carol Becker: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/carolbecker
1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
<email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
------------------------
Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1G3YhjTzwwKp2c5SzqwU72
New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
Digest: Subject: digest on
Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
From: Minneapolis Issues Forum <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org> on behalf of
BeckerMpls <<email obscured>>
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2021 9:56:05 AM
To: <email obscured> <<email obscured>>
Cc: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org <mpls@forums.e-democracy.org>
Subject: Re: [Mpls] Minneapolis: National Review Poster Child
I agree with Brian. If you are standing there peacefully protesting but the
person next to you is shooting fireworks at a cop, are you a peaceful
protester? No you are not.
Frey did not abandon the Third Precinct to peaceful protesters - he abandoned
it to a mob who violently chased the police several blocks, ransacked the
building and then burned it. That is not “peaceful” by any stretch of the
imagination. I believe they would have killed those cops if they caught them.
Progressives like you need to own that.
As to the “provocateurs” all being white, that is also false. I can say at the
HiLake Mall, virtually everyone I saw on the first day and everyone on the
second day except the guys who hauled in the propane tanks were people of
color. I have pictures if you want them. I know none of them got arrested.
As to how many more lives would have been lost had the Third Precinct not been
abandoned, I guess I dont get the reasoning. What I saw when I went to the
Third Precinct was not peaceful protest - I saw people being violent - violence
that ended up in an attempt to physically harm the police, which didnt happen
because they literally ran for their lives. Right before that, they literally
had called their families and said their last goodbyes because they were sure
they would have been killed. It is simply a false narrative that the people at
the Third Precinct were peaceful. And again, I have pictures. I am happy to
show them. I am deeply sorry that people got hurt when they were attempting to
do harm to those police and their building but there is no way to call that a
peaceful protest.
What would have been best would have been effective crowd control like we saw
at subsequent protests. They didnt deevolve into riots because police were
there. The riots happened because people believed that there would be no
consequences to their actions. Literally one looter said to his companions “So
where do you want to loot next?” Because there were no consequences because the
police were understaffed. If we had effective policing, where people knew
there would be consequences, there wouldnt have been the arson, there wouldnt
have been some guy shooting a guy breaking into his store, etc. And no, having
over 2,000 businesses harmed - that isnt an acceptable tradeoff. Effective
crowd control keeps everyone safe.
I am not sure how you get to firing squads in all of this but your basic
premise is just wrong. This isnt a debate between a peaceful, almost pastoral
populace and a violent evil police force. I believe you, Charlie, are an
eminently peaceful person and think that everyone is like you. But they just
are not. There are bad people in the world. And there are good people who do
bad things in the moment. And no amount of social workers and mental health
professionals will stop them. That is the real debate here. Progressives who
do not experience much crime, dont acknowledge that there are bad people out
there. They offer no solutions on how to deal with these people. The guy who
has come to my house three times to steal from me is violent and has been a
thief for at least 15 years, from what I have been able to google. I am not
safe because there are not enough police officers to remove him from the
streets. Charlie, what alternative do you offer to deal with him?
Carol Becker
> On Feb 19, 2021, at 1:00 PM, Charley Underwood <<email obscured>>
wrote:
>
> I have said it before, but will repeat it: I have never been a huge fan of
Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey. In the case of the riots and arson following the
murder of George Floyd, however, I completely agree with his decision to pull
back the police from the 3rd precinct and not further engage the peaceful
protesters to that murder. I recognize that there were millions of dollars in
property damage, partly because of that decision. And I am deeply sorry for
those losses, especially including Black, People of Color and immigrant-owned
businesses. East Lake is my library. I ate in more than six of those
restaurants. I bought wine from one of those liquor stores. I shopped at that
Cub, that Aldis, that Target. I went to that post office. This is my
neighborhood.
>
> I further want to acknowledge that the disorder of that time provided an
opening for truly nasty provocation by Proud Boys, Boogaloo Bois, and the like.
It was also probably inevitable that any number of local and not-so-local
people came to loot or just to have a nice time destroying things. If you
doubt who the true provocateurs were, please check out the press releases of
the Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms as well as our local office of the U.S.
Attorney. I have been following these sites fairly closely and have found
almost no arrestees who could even possibly be called "antifa."; to date, I
have seen only a single arrest of one person who might have left-leaning
sympathies. If you look carefully, you will even notice practically no People
of Color among the actual rioters (though that is not true of the looters). A
very large number of the arrested so far, in fact, came from outside Minnesota
and nearly all of the serious crimes charged gave addresses outside the Twin
Cities. Check it out yourself, if you don't believe me.
>
> On the other side, though, we have to consider how many lives would have been
lost if the 3rd precinct had NOT been abandoned, or if a more massive police
mobilization had occurred. As it was, two people died in or near pawn shops,
one burned to death and one shot by the manager (a killing which has not been
charged, as far as I know). Tragically, the initial police response to the
huge public outcry over their brutality was more brutality. People were shot
in the eye. Compliant people were thrown to the ground and suffered
concussions. Tires on parked cars were sliced by racist sheriff deputies from
Anoka county. Those who witnessed the initial police reaction inevitably
describe it as provocative. It can easily be argued that a continued police
presence would have resulted in more violence, more deaths, even more property
destruction. Let's say that we witnessed only a dozen additional deaths during
that time. How much was each of those lost lives worth? How much would it be
worth if it was your son, your mother, your friend? How much you be willing to
risk additional arsons and rioting if it involved your house, your neighbor's
house?
>
> We can spend a lot of time speculating about whose blame this all is, but
frankly blaming Black people or some wild-eyed young anarchists is completely
unsupported by the facts so far. The problem under all of this is that the
murder of George Floyd made it quite clear that people do not trust the police
to "protect and serve" them. I am sorry that so many suburban officers were
traumatized by that realization and are now on PTSD disability. I am sorry
that other suburban police officers have engaged in a vindictive Blue Flu,
leaving our neighborhoods to the mercy of porch pirates, car-jackers and
catalytic converter thieves.
>
> Isn't this better, however, than the bloodshed which would have occurred had
the police organized essential firing squads on us last June? Isn't it also
clear that we will see no improvement in our public safety until we completely
re-organize out response to urgent crises and until the police officers
themselves start treating ALL us us with the consideration we deserve, not just
white people.
>
> Charley Underwood
> Longfellow (SD 62 A), Minneapolis
> About/contact Charley Underwood:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charleyunderwood
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/91qATJBmGeKxuqLRikpFj
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
Carol Becker
Longfellow, Minneapolis
About/contact Carol Becker: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/carolbecker
1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
<email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
------------------------
Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1G3YhjTzwwKp2c5SzqwU72
New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
Digest: Subject: digest on
Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
To begin, I want to be completely clear that I am not challenging Carol
Becker's integrity. She and I may come to different conclusions, but I believe
that she saw what she saw and is being truthful about it. Our different
interpretations, I believe, is because we are looking at very different sources
of evidence. Let me begin instead by slamming that I DO believe is a suspect
narrative about the disturbances following the George Floyd murder .
Even as our neighborhood stores were being burned to the ground, Donald Trump
ascribed our troubles to "antifa." Others said it was a natural response to
decades, even centuries, of racism, particularly by the police and particularly
by the Minneapolis police. Some saw it as criminal greed, particularly in
looting, done by local Minneapolis citizens, particularly BIPOC citizens Those
with a Left perspective, like me, figured that white supremacists and
gun-worshipers would join the protests here in order to "accelerate" an
inevitable new civil war. As I said, I tended toward blaming the right-wing,
but even more I wanted to be truthful. So I started doing research,
obsessively reading news accounts online, pouring over the press releases of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and checking the details from our regional office
of the U.S. Attorney.
What I have found has been mixed. By June 26, I had found 19 cases that had
been charged with arson, rioting or property destruction. Of those 19, ten
appear white, 5 as Black (including 2 from Liberia), one Latinx, one Arab (in
hijab), and one Asian. Ten were from the suburbs, 5 from small towns and only
4 from either Minneapolis or St. Paul. All were between the ages of 19 and 33,
with one unnamed juvenile arrested with his mother and uncle. At that point, I
couldn't find a single person with a clear ideological motive, either left or
right. That has changed, however, one guilty plea was a Black man (from MN
Republican Senator Paul Gazelka's district, ironically) who may have had an
anti-racist intent. More recent news articles have also cited clear Boogaloo
Bois connections and one cited ties to a white prison gang called the Aryan
Cowboy Brotherhood, also affiliated with Hells Angels (the so-called "umbrella
man").
I want to end this particular post by stating that some of my conclusions are
also suspect. First, my own research is not up-to-date; this sort of computer
work takes hours and hours, and I haven't been as thorough since July or
August. That work has been on the back-burner now for months, since my
attention shifted to the next riot, the one fomented by Trump which culminated
on January 6. I will again try to gird my loins and dive into the post-Floyd
research again, especially since our news outlets are doing a very good job in
identifying the Oath Keepers and others who invaded the Capitol.
Second, the initial arrests are not necessarily a true picture. Most of those
arrested in the early days were identified by their own Facebook posts or other
live-feeds. That is pretty stupid and clearly no self-respecting arsonist or
rioter would do that. So those arrestees came from Coon Rapids, Maple Plains,
St. Cloud, Brainerd, and so on. Over the following weeks or months, it took
reward offers from the ATF and some serious investigating to ID the more
intelligent criminals Boogaloo Bois were arrested from suburbs of San Antonio
and elsewhere. The details that continue to immerge will certainly give a more
complex picture, even as we may gain insights in understanding the motivations
behind all that destruction.
Closing, I want to again stress that my intention here is not to defame anyone
citing their own observations. What I instead mean to say is that our own eyes
only first see what is obvious. Take the case of the "umbrella man," whose
action in shattering the Auto Zone windows was arguably the impetus for our
looting in Minneapolis, across the river and in fact in cities around the
world. He was all dressed in black, wearing body armor and a gas mask. Only
his height, build and (white) race were evident. After a demonstrably-false
claim that it was an undercover St. Paul police officer, a Star Tribune later
identified a man from a leaked search warrant. That was the prison-gang white
supremacist from the suburbs that I mentioned earlier. I don't know if he was
even charged, however, since that charge is apparently "under seal." How can
we know his motivation if we can't even find out if he was charged?
There were so many rumors during that time, some of which we may trust more
than others. On my own block, for example, a bicycle rider was hit-and-run
injured by a stolen truck that was speeding by. I have a very good friend who
personally found a gas can near his house, likely intended for later arson, but
who really knows? How many of those stolen cars without license plates have
had their drivers arrested and who knows whether they were riot
"accelerationists" or just joy-riding during the chaos?
I will again try to get back to work on this story, sending my results (if any)
to any and all interested. My guess, at this point, is that the story is more
complex than any of us imagined, including me. One thing is simple, however,
at least for me: We will not see improvement in public safety until we rebuild
our crisis response to the point that we have more trust. We won't have safety
if every response to a problem is armed and potentially lethal. We won't have
trust in our police until we absolutely know that they don't treat citizens
like enemies in a war, are not more dangerous in their presence than in their
absence.
Becker's integrity. She and I may come to different conclusions, but I believe
that she saw what she saw and is being truthful about it. Our different
interpretations, I believe, is because we are looking at very different sources
of evidence. Let me begin instead by slamming that I DO believe is a suspect
narrative about the disturbances following the George Floyd murder .
Even as our neighborhood stores were being burned to the ground, Donald Trump
ascribed our troubles to "antifa." Others said it was a natural response to
decades, even centuries, of racism, particularly by the police and particularly
by the Minneapolis police. Some saw it as criminal greed, particularly in
looting, done by local Minneapolis citizens, particularly BIPOC citizens Those
with a Left perspective, like me, figured that white supremacists and
gun-worshipers would join the protests here in order to "accelerate" an
inevitable new civil war. As I said, I tended toward blaming the right-wing,
but even more I wanted to be truthful. So I started doing research,
obsessively reading news accounts online, pouring over the press releases of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and checking the details from our regional office
of the U.S. Attorney.
What I have found has been mixed. By June 26, I had found 19 cases that had
been charged with arson, rioting or property destruction. Of those 19, ten
appear white, 5 as Black (including 2 from Liberia), one Latinx, one Arab (in
hijab), and one Asian. Ten were from the suburbs, 5 from small towns and only
4 from either Minneapolis or St. Paul. All were between the ages of 19 and 33,
with one unnamed juvenile arrested with his mother and uncle. At that point, I
couldn't find a single person with a clear ideological motive, either left or
right. That has changed, however, one guilty plea was a Black man (from MN
Republican Senator Paul Gazelka's district, ironically) who may have had an
anti-racist intent. More recent news articles have also cited clear Boogaloo
Bois connections and one cited ties to a white prison gang called the Aryan
Cowboy Brotherhood, also affiliated with Hells Angels (the so-called "umbrella
man").
I want to end this particular post by stating that some of my conclusions are
also suspect. First, my own research is not up-to-date; this sort of computer
work takes hours and hours, and I haven't been as thorough since July or
August. That work has been on the back-burner now for months, since my
attention shifted to the next riot, the one fomented by Trump which culminated
on January 6. I will again try to gird my loins and dive into the post-Floyd
research again, especially since our news outlets are doing a very good job in
identifying the Oath Keepers and others who invaded the Capitol.
Second, the initial arrests are not necessarily a true picture. Most of those
arrested in the early days were identified by their own Facebook posts or other
live-feeds. That is pretty stupid and clearly no self-respecting arsonist or
rioter would do that. So those arrestees came from Coon Rapids, Maple Plains,
St. Cloud, Brainerd, and so on. Over the following weeks or months, it took
reward offers from the ATF and some serious investigating to ID the more
intelligent criminals Boogaloo Bois were arrested from suburbs of San Antonio
and elsewhere. The details that continue to immerge will certainly give a more
complex picture, even as we may gain insights in understanding the motivations
behind all that destruction.
Closing, I want to again stress that my intention here is not to defame anyone
citing their own observations. What I instead mean to say is that our own eyes
only first see what is obvious. Take the case of the "umbrella man," whose
action in shattering the Auto Zone windows was arguably the impetus for our
looting in Minneapolis, across the river and in fact in cities around the
world. He was all dressed in black, wearing body armor and a gas mask. Only
his height, build and (white) race were evident. After a demonstrably-false
claim that it was an undercover St. Paul police officer, a Star Tribune later
identified a man from a leaked search warrant. That was the prison-gang white
supremacist from the suburbs that I mentioned earlier. I don't know if he was
even charged, however, since that charge is apparently "under seal." How can
we know his motivation if we can't even find out if he was charged?
There were so many rumors during that time, some of which we may trust more
than others. On my own block, for example, a bicycle rider was hit-and-run
injured by a stolen truck that was speeding by. I have a very good friend who
personally found a gas can near his house, likely intended for later arson, but
who really knows? How many of those stolen cars without license plates have
had their drivers arrested and who knows whether they were riot
"accelerationists" or just joy-riding during the chaos?
I will again try to get back to work on this story, sending my results (if any)
to any and all interested. My guess, at this point, is that the story is more
complex than any of us imagined, including me. One thing is simple, however,
at least for me: We will not see improvement in public safety until we rebuild
our crisis response to the point that we have more trust. We won't have safety
if every response to a problem is armed and potentially lethal. We won't have
trust in our police until we absolutely know that they don't treat citizens
like enemies in a war, are not more dangerous in their presence than in their
absence.
Charley - I deeply respect that you care about our city and care about who
did this. I honor your desire to talk about what happened and why.
I think one of the fundamental conclusions that I came to was that there
was not one person, not one group, not one race, not one anyone
responsible. I know from my own eyes at least at my one corner of the city
that there were people of color calling other people of color to loot.
There were organized gangs who went after high value items. Some of these
appeared to be Hispanic. I know that the pickup throwing Molotov cocktails
had Ojibwe across the back window. I know the guys toting propane tanks
were white. I know that most of the people looting the liquor store next to
us were people of color. The people looting the 7 Mile Beauty Store seemed
to me to be customers. The people looting Urban Trends also seemed to be
customers, at least until the gangs pulled up in pickups and basically
outloaded the whole store. The liquor store looters were calling their
friends. The people that put up graffiti on our building were two black
people, one male and one female. The woman with bottles of water going
around putting out fires was black. People want a simple answer but there
is no simple answer. What I saw was lots and lots of groups, with
different agendas. The story is a mosaic, not a single story and that is
hard for people to understand. What I wish is that someone would go talk to
all the different people who were part of this and do an oral history so we
better understand this mosaic.
I also know that there are lots and lots of individuals who were never
charged. So reading won't give you the picture of what happened. You had
to be there.
I think antifa is a boogeyman created by the right to scare people. I do
believe that most of the fires and the largest devastation was done by a
tiny number of white men, maybe as few as six. I saw four men haul in
propane tanks and they were supported by a vehicle. I watched them
methodically business by business set the mall on fire. Antifia? I don't
know. I do know they were spraying the Anarchist A so I believe they were
anarchists. But it isn't like there is a card-carrying membership or
anything so I don't know what that means. I also know they were smart
enough to set cars on fire parked under power lines with transformers to
kill the power in an area. That said to me they had training. I do believe
that destruction was a tiny number of white men. At least where I was. I
don't know the affiliation.
I also know there were organized gangs. I watched them. They hit high value
places like pawn shops, shoe stores, phone stores, pharmacies, etc.
I know there were racists, who hit all the Hispanic businesses, even up on
Central where nothing else happened.
I believe some property owners torched their businesses because they were
able to get sizable settlements and then sell to developers. We will see
all those developments mushroom up over the next several years.
It is a complicated story.
I do agree with you that we need to rebuilt trust between the police and
the community. What I hear from all sides (both keep cops and cut cups) is
a core thing - they all want accountability. In that, we are united.
Political namaste (I honor the political spirit in you which is also in
me.)
Carol Becker
Longfellow
did this. I honor your desire to talk about what happened and why.
I think one of the fundamental conclusions that I came to was that there
was not one person, not one group, not one race, not one anyone
responsible. I know from my own eyes at least at my one corner of the city
that there were people of color calling other people of color to loot.
There were organized gangs who went after high value items. Some of these
appeared to be Hispanic. I know that the pickup throwing Molotov cocktails
had Ojibwe across the back window. I know the guys toting propane tanks
were white. I know that most of the people looting the liquor store next to
us were people of color. The people looting the 7 Mile Beauty Store seemed
to me to be customers. The people looting Urban Trends also seemed to be
customers, at least until the gangs pulled up in pickups and basically
outloaded the whole store. The liquor store looters were calling their
friends. The people that put up graffiti on our building were two black
people, one male and one female. The woman with bottles of water going
around putting out fires was black. People want a simple answer but there
is no simple answer. What I saw was lots and lots of groups, with
different agendas. The story is a mosaic, not a single story and that is
hard for people to understand. What I wish is that someone would go talk to
all the different people who were part of this and do an oral history so we
better understand this mosaic.
I also know that there are lots and lots of individuals who were never
charged. So reading won't give you the picture of what happened. You had
to be there.
I think antifa is a boogeyman created by the right to scare people. I do
believe that most of the fires and the largest devastation was done by a
tiny number of white men, maybe as few as six. I saw four men haul in
propane tanks and they were supported by a vehicle. I watched them
methodically business by business set the mall on fire. Antifia? I don't
know. I do know they were spraying the Anarchist A so I believe they were
anarchists. But it isn't like there is a card-carrying membership or
anything so I don't know what that means. I also know they were smart
enough to set cars on fire parked under power lines with transformers to
kill the power in an area. That said to me they had training. I do believe
that destruction was a tiny number of white men. At least where I was. I
don't know the affiliation.
I also know there were organized gangs. I watched them. They hit high value
places like pawn shops, shoe stores, phone stores, pharmacies, etc.
I know there were racists, who hit all the Hispanic businesses, even up on
Central where nothing else happened.
I believe some property owners torched their businesses because they were
able to get sizable settlements and then sell to developers. We will see
all those developments mushroom up over the next several years.
It is a complicated story.
I do agree with you that we need to rebuilt trust between the police and
the community. What I hear from all sides (both keep cops and cut cups) is
a core thing - they all want accountability. In that, we are united.
Political namaste (I honor the political spirit in you which is also in
me.)
Carol Becker
Longfellow
On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 12:24 PM Charley Underwood <
Yesterday, in posting about possible racial or ideological motivations for the
arson and rioting that occurred after the George Floyd murder, I mentioned that
I had initially found only a single person as even a possibility, "... one
guilty plea was a Black man (from MN
Republican Senator Paul Gazelka's district, ironically) who may have had an
anti-racist intent." The person I was talking about was Bryce Williams, a
mixed race young adult from Staples, just west of Brainerd (Republican Paul
Gazelka's district). By odd circumstances, there was a lengthy, nuanced and (I
believe) balanced story about him in this morning's Star Tribune. You can find
it at
https://www.startribune.com/george-floyd-protests-gave-him-purpose-but-third-precinct-arson-plea-comes-with-a-price/600025528/
arson and rioting that occurred after the George Floyd murder, I mentioned that
I had initially found only a single person as even a possibility, "... one
guilty plea was a Black man (from MN
Republican Senator Paul Gazelka's district, ironically) who may have had an
anti-racist intent." The person I was talking about was Bryce Williams, a
mixed race young adult from Staples, just west of Brainerd (Republican Paul
Gazelka's district). By odd circumstances, there was a lengthy, nuanced and (I
believe) balanced story about him in this morning's Star Tribune. You can find
it at
https://www.startribune.com/george-floyd-protests-gave-him-purpose-but-third-precinct-arson-plea-comes-with-a-price/600025528/
Yes, the Strib piece is revealing. I think one often overlooked nuance is that
it appears military training and religious zealotry, along with a dash of
“cause celeb” tiktok stupidity, seem to be a part of the Molotov cocktail
recipe.
it appears military training and religious zealotry, along with a dash of
“cause celeb” tiktok stupidity, seem to be a part of the Molotov cocktail
recipe.
Strangely, this “nuance” also loosely describes U.S. militaristic posture and
assumptions of U.S. exceptionalism, along with some of the religious zealots we
sponsor to further our wars. Chickens coming home to roost, etc.
Dave Gutknecht
> On Feb 21, 2021, at 12:58 PM, Sheldon Gitis <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> Yes, the Strib piece is revealing. I think one often overlooked nuance is
that it appears military training and religious zealotry, along with a dash of
“cause celeb” tiktok stupidity, seem to be a part of the Molotov cocktail
recipe.
>
> Sheldon Gitis
> Roseville
> About/contact Sheldon Gitis: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/sheldongitis1
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7ANTU5DOVfS4o0b1kS3zOZ
assumptions of U.S. exceptionalism, along with some of the religious zealots we
sponsor to further our wars. Chickens coming home to roost, etc.
Dave Gutknecht
> On Feb 21, 2021, at 12:58 PM, Sheldon Gitis <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> Yes, the Strib piece is revealing. I think one often overlooked nuance is
that it appears military training and religious zealotry, along with a dash of
“cause celeb” tiktok stupidity, seem to be a part of the Molotov cocktail
recipe.
>
> Sheldon Gitis
> Roseville
> About/contact Sheldon Gitis: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/sheldongitis1
>
>
> 1. Be civil! Please read the rules at http://e-democracy.org/rules.
> If you think a member is in violation, contact the forum manager at
> <email obscured> before continuing it on the list.
>
> 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7ANTU5DOVfS4o0b1kS3zOZ
> New Topic: mpls@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls
>
>
>
>
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
Hide the post
Loading…