Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality
Summary
- There are 75 posts — by 33 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Steven Clift at Sep 20 04:45 UTC
I know there are restrictions about fires in people's back yards, but it seems like since almost every one has a fire pit, the air quality has gone down in our neighborhood. Since we've been able to open up windows to bring in the nice cool air, my eyes and throat are itchy from the wood smoke in our hood. We have a fire pit, but we only use it a few times a season (just once or twice this year and not recently). When we use it, we burn two or three logs because it's small. What are the restrictions? How do they get enforced? Is there something we can do about this air quality problem?
Here's some language from the City Ordinances - Recreational fire. A small outdoor fire burning approved materials for pleasure, religious, ceremonial, cooking, warmth or similar purposes. Approved materials. Fuel for a recreational fire consisting solely of unpainted wood which has not been treated in any manner with chemicals or preservatives. (2003-Or-143, § 1, 12-15-03) 178.20. - Applicable rules. Every person starting, engaging in, conducting or hosting a recreational fire shall observe and comply with the following regulations, which are reflected in or are in addition to those imposed by the Minnesota State Fire Code: (1) The total fuel area being burned in any recreational fire shall not exceed three (3) feet in diameter and two (2) feet in height. (2) Recreational fires shall not be conducted within twenty-five (25) feet of a structure or combustible material. (3) A surrounding fire barrier of non-combustible material that is at least six (6) inches in height must be used. (4) Only approved materials may be burned in a recreational fire. (5) Recreational fires shall be constantly attended by at least one competent person eighteen (18) years of age or older and shall be completely extinguished before being abandoned. (6) On-site fire-extinguishing equipment - such as operable garden hoses, sand and shovels, water buckets or barrels, or a portable fire extinguisher with a minimum 4-A rating - shall be readily available for use at recreational fires. (7) Recreational fires shall only be conducted between the hours of 9:00 a.m. and 10:00 p.m. (8) Recreational fires shall not be conducted if prevailing wind conditions exceed ten m.p.h. (2003-Or-143, § 1, 12-15-03) 178.30. - Discontinuance. The fire chief, chief of police or any authorized member of the fire department, fire prevention bureau, or officer of the police department may order the immediate extinguishment or may themselves immediately extinguish any recreational fire which falls into any one of the following categories: (1) Creates a hazardous or unsafe condition. (2) Creates a nuisance or reasonably objectionable situation for any nearby resident. (3) Violates any provision of this chapter or of any other chapter of this Code. (4) Violates any provision of the Minnesota State Fire Code. (2003-Or-143, § 1, 12-15-03) 178.40. - Penalty. (a) Each violation of any provision of this chapter shall be a petty misdemeanor, for which the maximum fine shall be eighty dollars ($80.00). (b) The fire chief, chief of police or any authorized member of the fire department, fire prevention bureau, or officer of the police department shall have the power and duty to enforce this chapter through appropriate administrative and legal remedies, including but not limited to issuance of citation. (2003-Or-143, § 1, 12-15-03) You can find more at http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=11490&stateId=23&stateName=minnesota
My allergies are seriously out of control this season. Other allergy sufferers are telling me it's a horrendous year for them as well. Maybe it's not the fires?? Just a thought. Hope you get relief soon, whatever the cause. jenna scheetz howe
On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 10:06 PM, N. Jeanne Burns <email obscured>>wrote: > I know there are restrictions about fires in people's back yards, but it > seems like since almost every one has a fire pit, the air quality has gone > down in our neighborhood. Since we've been able to open up windows to bring > in the nice cool air, my eyes and throat are itchy from the wood smoke in > our hood. > > We have a fire pit, but we only use it a few times a season (just once or > twice this year and not recently). When we use it, we burn two or three logs > because it's small. > > What are the restrictions? How do they get enforced? Is there something we > can do about this air quality problem? > N. Jeanne Burns > Hiawatha, Longfellow, Minneapolis > About N. Jeanne Burns: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7le9iGbvGviuqz13CRFarU > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5VO9a8SjN6YOkZKAE5rIUe > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net >
I would like to see the City take a position on the pollution emitted by fires, so I have brought it up at CEAC meetings (Citizen's Environmental Advisory Committee) of which I am a sitting member. But I am just one voice. If you want to affect change around recreational fires such as: ~ requiring a permit to burn in your yard ~ requiring that all neighbors within a 2 block radius approve your permit (just like the chickens... you have to get neighbor approval before you can have them)... ~ limiting the number and frequency of fires allowed per permit ...call your Council Member and ask to meet with them. All city council members take time on the phone or in person to meet. They are interested in hearing from you. Because they don't get enough complaints about recreational fires, they don't do anything beyond what is recommended by the fire marshall. In this case, the squeaky wheel would get the grease. Complaints create legislation if enough people weigh in. A permit that would require neighborhood approval for recreational fires would eliminate fires all-together within a radius of your home if you have a severe allergy and can become sick.
Please tell me you are kidding. It would royally suck if a tradition dating back to our ancestors sitting in caves and one of the best parts about this time of year was ruined by a few complainers. If you want to reduce pollution, replace coal plants with a green source. On Sep 9, 2011 7:33 AM, "Annette Rondano" <email obscured>> wrote: > I would like to see the City take a position on the pollution emitted by fires, so I have brought it up at CEAC meetings (Citizen's Environmental Advisory Committee) of which I am a sitting member. But I am just one voice. > > If you want to affect change around recreational fires such as: > ~ requiring a permit to burn in your yard > ~ requiring that all neighbors within a 2 block radius approve your permit (just like the chickens... you have to get neighbor approval before you can have them)... > ~ limiting the number and frequency of fires allowed per permit > > ...call your Council Member and ask to meet with them. All city council members take time on the phone or in person to meet. They are interested in hearing from you. Because they don't get enough complaints about recreational fires, they don't do anything beyond what is recommended by the fire marshall. > > In this case, the squeaky wheel would get the grease. Complaints create legislation if enough people weigh in. A permit that would require neighborhood approval for recreational fires would eliminate fires all-together within a radius of your home if you have a severe allergy and can become sick. > > Annette Rondano > Highland Park, St. Paul > About Annette Rondano: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5mjBTCMsU1lBmqSDAbEdni > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5y0BUdsD2fRwylfR7Ya7eR > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
Please keep it civil on this likely quite divisive topic. Since we cannot resolve it amongst ourselves, let's get the information on the table. Steven Clift - http://stevenclift.com Executive Director - http://E-Democracy.Org Follow me - http://twitter.com/democracy New Tel: +1.612.234.7072
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Andrew Johnson <email obscured>> wrote: > Please tell me you are kidding. It would royally suck if a tradition dating > back to our ancestors sitting in caves and one of the best parts about this > time of year was ruined by a few complainers. > > If you want to reduce pollution, replace coal plants with a green source. > On Sep 9, 2011 7:33 AM, "Annette Rondano" <email obscured>> > wrote: >> I would like to see the City take a position on the pollution emitted by > fires, so I have brought it up at CEAC meetings (Citizen's Environmental > Advisory Committee) of which I am a sitting member. But I am just one voice. >> >> If you want to affect change around recreational fires such as: >> ~ requiring a permit to burn in your yard >> ~ requiring that all neighbors within a 2 block radius approve your permit > (just like the chickens... you have to get neighbor approval before you can > have them)... >> ~ limiting the number and frequency of fires allowed per permit >> >> ...call your Council Member and ask to meet with them. All city council > members take time on the phone or in person to meet. They are interested in > hearing from you. Because they don't get enough complaints about > recreational fires, they don't do anything beyond what is recommended by the > fire marshall. >> >> In this case, the squeaky wheel would get the grease. Complaints create > legislation if enough people weigh in. A permit that would require > neighborhood approval for recreational fires would eliminate fires > all-together within a radius of your home if you have a severe allergy and > can become sick. >> >> Annette Rondano >> Highland Park, St. Paul >> About Annette Rondano: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5mjBTCMsU1lBmqSDAbEdni >> >> View full topic, share on Facebook and more: >> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5y0BUdsD2fRwylfR7Ya7eR >> >> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? >> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. >> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. >> >> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > Andrew Johnson > Howe, Minneapolis > About Andrew Johnson: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1LFMSxWBpXvvBrEFBJ9VXa > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7zmDfvPpl0VqwHsqxlywWI > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net >
I'm with Andrew on this one. When I look at the big picture, I feel that the chance to relax with friends and family, and enjoy the tiny parcels of land that we own while sitting around a small fire pit in the back yard outweighs the deminimis smoke/particulates generated by it. I'm not saying that there isn't some pollution associated with fire pits, but there's also pollution associated with burning logs in the fireplace in your living room. Annette, would you suggest that we approach our city council member about that too? I have many friends in Minneapolis, but I only know one guy who has a fire pit, and I doubt that it gets used more than 8 times per year. Is this *really* an issue that needs to be brought before City Council? I don't think so, but reasonable people can disagree. John Barron Cooper
-----Original Message----- From: <email obscured> <email obscured>] On Behalf Of Andrew Johnson Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 8:41 AM To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality Please tell me you are kidding. It would royally suck if a tradition dating back to our ancestors sitting in caves and one of the best parts about this time of year was ruined by a few complainers. If you want to reduce pollution, replace coal plants with a green source. On Sep 9, 2011 7:33 AM, "Annette Rondano" <email obscured>> wrote: > I would like to see the City take a position on the pollution emitted > by fires, so I have brought it up at CEAC meetings (Citizen's Environmental Advisory Committee) of which I am a sitting member. But I am just one voice. > > If you want to affect change around recreational fires such as: > ~ requiring a permit to burn in your yard ~ requiring that all > neighbors within a 2 block radius approve your permit (just like the chickens... you have to get neighbor approval before you can have them)... > ~ limiting the number and frequency of fires allowed per permit > > ...call your Council Member and ask to meet with them. All city > council members take time on the phone or in person to meet. They are interested in hearing from you. Because they don't get enough complaints about recreational fires, they don't do anything beyond what is recommended by the fire marshall. > > In this case, the squeaky wheel would get the grease. Complaints > create legislation if enough people weigh in. A permit that would require neighborhood approval for recreational fires would eliminate fires all-together within a radius of your home if you have a severe allergy and can become sick. > > Annette Rondano > Highland Park, St. Paul > About Annette Rondano: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5mjBTCMsU1lBmqSDAbEdni > elp? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
So John are you saying consideration isnt one of yur strongest areas? Did you read the city regulations and suggestions for consideration of neghbors? > From: <email obscured> > To: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 14:33:20 +0000 > > I'm with Andrew on this one. > > When I look at the big picture, I feel that the chance to relax with friends and family, and enjoy the tiny parcels of land that we own while sitting around a small fire pit in the back yard outweighs the deminimis smoke/particulates generated by it. I'm not saying that there isn't some pollution associated with fire pits, but there's also pollution associated with burning logs in the fireplace in your living room. > > Annette, would you suggest that we approach our city council member about that too? > > I have many friends in Minneapolis, but I only know one guy who has a fire pit, and I doubt that it gets used more than 8 times per year. > > Is this *really* an issue that needs to be brought before City Council? I don't think so, but reasonable people can disagree. > > John Barron > Cooper > > -----Original Message----- > From: <email obscured> <email obscured>] On Behalf Of Andrew Johnson > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 8:41 AM > To: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > > Please tell me you are kidding. It would royally suck if a tradition dating back to our ancestors sitting in caves and one of the best parts about this time of year was ruined by a few complainers. > > If you want to reduce pollution, replace coal plants with a green source. > On Sep 9, 2011 7:33 AM, "Annette Rondano" <email obscured>> > wrote: > > I would like to see the City take a position on the pollution emitted > > by > fires, so I have brought it up at CEAC meetings (Citizen's Environmental Advisory Committee) of which I am a sitting member. But I am just one voice. > > > > If you want to affect change around recreational fires such as: > > ~ requiring a permit to burn in your yard ~ requiring that all > > neighbors within a 2 block radius approve your permit > (just like the chickens... you have to get neighbor approval before you can have them)... > > ~ limiting the number and frequency of fires allowed per permit > > > > ...call your Council Member and ask to meet with them. All city > > council > members take time on the phone or in person to meet. They are interested in hearing from you. Because they don't get enough complaints about recreational fires, they don't do anything beyond what is recommended by the fire marshall. > > > > In this case, the squeaky wheel would get the grease. Complaints > > create > legislation if enough people weigh in. A permit that would require neighborhood approval for recreational fires would eliminate fires all-together within a radius of your home if you have a severe allergy and can become sick.
> > > > Annette Rondano > > Highland Park, St. Paul > > About Annette Rondano: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5mjBTCMsU1lBmqSDAbEdni > > > elp? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net > > John Barron > Cooper (Longfellow), Minneapolis > About John Barron: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/xbY7IHAK0fP8RunowiZCl > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/27ztrJdPciro1J2r5BERMk > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
A few questions: 1. Who do you call if a recreational fire is seriously outside of the guidelines (assuming that if possible nearest neighbors can talk to each others about this)? 2. Aren't inversion conditions a problem? Meaning, without a bit of breeze, the smoke seems to float around rather than lift off. Steve Here are some information links about the laws, etc. http://www.minneapolismn.gov/news/20110503RecFires.asp Enjoy recreational fires by obeying City laws and being a considerate neighbor Share It’s getting to be the time of year when many Minneapolis residents enjoy a small outdoor fire. Residents who like to have a fire in their yards should keep these City ordinances in mind to keep Minneapolis safe and livable: Outdoor fires are permitted between 9 a.m. and 10 p.m. Keep fire small, less than three feet in diameter and two feet high. Burn only untreated, unpainted, dry wood. Never burn cardboard boxes, trash or debris — the smoke can be toxic. Fire must be at least 25 feet away from a structure or combustible material and in a fire ring or pit with edges more than six inches high. Have a hose or fire extinguisher present. Postpone the fire when the wind exceeds 10 mph. To report an illegal or unsafe fire, call 911. For more Minneapolis law on recreational fires, visit the Minneapolis Code of Ordinances, Chapter 178. Be a good neighbor When you’re planning to have a recreational fire, these simple suggestions could help make sure you’re being a considerate neighbor: Postponing a fire when Minneapolis is under an air pollution advisory or alert. Fires release fine particles that contribute to air pollution and can aggravate a number of health problems, including asthma. Sign up for air quality alerts at http://mn.enviroflash.info. Letting neighbors know when planning a fire. Postponing a fire when smoke will blow directly at a neighbor’s house. For more information on recreational fires or to register a complaint about a recreational fire, call 311 or email <email obscured>. For more information on Minneapolis air quality, visit http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/sustainability/air-quality.asp. May 3, 2011 http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/sustainability/air-quality.asp The code: CHAPTER 178. - RECREATIONAL FIRES 178.10. - Definitions. 178.20. - Applicable rules. 178.30. - Discontinuance. 178.40. - Penalty. 178.50. - Applicability. 178.60. - Conflict. 178.10. - Definitions. Recreational fire. A small outdoor fire burning approved materials for pleasure, religious, ceremonial, cooking, warmth or similar purposes. Approved materials. Fuel for a recreational fire consisting solely of unpainted wood which has not been treated in any manner with chemicals or preservatives. (2003-Or-143, § 1, 12-15-03) 178.20. - Applicable rules. Every person starting, engaging in, conducting or hosting a recreational fire shall observe and comply with the following regulations, which are reflected in or are in addition to those imposed by the Minnesota State Fire Code: (1) The total fuel area being burned in any recreational fire shall not exceed three (3) feet in diameter and two (2) feet in height. (2) Recreational fires shall not be conducted within twenty-five (25) feet of a structure or combustible material. (3) A surrounding fire barrier of non-combustible material that is at least six (6) inches in height must be used. (4) Only approved materials may be burned in a recreational fire. (5) Recreational fires shall be constantly attended by at least one competent person eighteen (18) years of age or older and shall be completely extinguished before being abandoned. (6) On-site fire-extinguishing equipment - such as operable garden hoses, sand and shovels, water buckets or barrels, or a portable fire extinguisher with a minimum 4-A rating - shall be readily available for use at recreational fires. (7) Recreational fires shall only be conducted between the hours of 9:00 a.m. and 10:00 p.m. (8) Recreational fires shall not be conducted if prevailing wind conditions exceed ten m.p.h. (2003-Or-143, § 1, 12-15-03) 178.30. - Discontinuance. The fire chief, chief of police or any authorized member of the fire department, fire prevention bureau, or officer of the police department may order the immediate extinguishment or may themselves immediately extinguish any recreational fire which falls into any one of the following categories: (1) Creates a hazardous or unsafe condition. (2) Creates a nuisance or reasonably objectionable situation for any nearby resident. (3) Violates any provision of this chapter or of any other chapter of this Code. (4) Violates any provision of the Minnesota State Fire Code. (2003-Or-143, § 1, 12-15-03) 178.40. - Penalty. (a) Each violation of any provision of this chapter shall be a petty misdemeanor, for which the maximum fine shall be eighty dollars ($80.00). (b) The fire chief, chief of police or any authorized member of the fire department, fire prevention bureau, or officer of the police department shall have the power and duty to enforce this chapter through appropriate administrative and legal remedies, including but not limited to issuance of citation. (2003-Or-143, § 1, 12-15-03) 178.50. - Applicability. This chapter shall apply solely to recreational fires (including portable freestanding fireplaces and "chimineas") but shall not apply to barbeque grills, incinerators, barbeque pits or any other appliances or burning otherwise specifically regulated by the Minnesota State Fire Code. (2003-Or-143, § 1, 12-15-03) 178.60. - Conflict. In the event that any provisions of this chapter conflict with the Minnesota State Fire Code or any other federal or Minnesota statute, rule, or law, the more restrictive provision shall prevail. (2003-Or-143, § 1, 12-15-03) Steven Clift - http://stevenclift.com Executive Director - http://E-Democracy.Org Follow me - http://twitter.com/democracy New Tel: +1.612.234.7072
I have a fire pit and want to continue to be able to use it. No one is suggesting that fire pits be banned. I'm asking for a civil dialog about a real issue. There have been several nights when I haven't been able to breathe because of the NUMBER of fires and SIZE of fires. I really like the idea of permits. They should be fairly easy to get, and allow people to have them. But we could limit them by date or by region or both. This is a health issue as well as a pollution issue. Before gas and oil heated homes, wood did, and cities were not a very pleasant place to be because of the concentration of wood smoke. Concentration is the problem. Not the fact of burning. The health impacts of wood smoke have been studied. You can see info about that here: http://www.ecy.wa.gov/pubs/92046.pdf Many California cities have adopted guidelines about wood burning including some outright bans when air quality is low. That's generally when I've had the worst problems here in the Twin Cities. See more on that here: http://1.usa.gov/pvxJbU In Australia, studies have shown that cancer rates go up when there's a concentration of woodsmoke. http://www.3sc.net/airqual/mapping.html It is not just about being good neighbors, but a real balance of individual freedoms and the public good. Let's consider the public good as well as what we want as individuals.
andrea schaerf: "So John are you saying consideration isnt one of yur strongest areas?" I found John's posting considerate and also thoughtful: Smoke emission from wood fires will be about the same for fires indoors and outdoors. To regulate one but not the other makes little sense. Jeane's posting contains some links about smoke, but they point mostly to dangers from wood fires in houses, not the (rarer) recreational fires, for example, in the pdf-file from Washington: "Particulate pollution from wood stoves is produced mostly in the winter when stagnant air and temperature inversion limit air movement, "trapping" the pollution close to the ground and keeping it in our breathing space." In the summer, when recreational fires are most common, inversion weather is rare. I am skeptical to require permits for small recreational fires in the own backyard. Processing permits requires money that the city doesn't have and that has to be recovered by fees. It seems better to respond to individual fires that produce too much smoke, because they are too large or use wrong wood, or to give a city-wide warning if inversion weather limits how fast the smoke can go away.
Nothing thoughtful about erring on the side of injuring people. It doesn't matter that the number of people who are painfully aware of the injury may be relatively "few." Your reading of the data is highly biased and selective. To regulate all wood smoke in cities would indeed make more sense than excusing recreational fires on the basis that fireplaces or wood stoves are more entrenched and there is a stubborn cultural habit of accepting them. Wood burning of any kind is an archaic behavior that makes no more sense in a concentrated, populated area than burning buffalo chips for heating. Every stupid behavior has been defended at first on the foundation that it is what we are used to and it is what we have done in the past. This argument is even dopier than the behavior. Pete Wagner
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Tobias" <email obscured>> To: <> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > andrea schaerf: > "So John are you saying consideration isnt one of yur strongest areas?" > > I found John's posting considerate and also thoughtful: Smoke emission > from wood fires will be about the same for fires indoors and outdoors. To > regulate one but not the other makes little sense. > > Jeane's posting contains some links about smoke, but they point mostly to > dangers from wood fires in houses, not the (rarer) recreational fires, for > example, in the pdf-file from Washington: > "Particulate pollution from wood stoves is produced mostly in the winter > when stagnant air and temperature inversion limit air movement, "trapping" > the pollution close to the ground and keeping it in our breathing space." > In the summer, when recreational fires are most common, inversion weather > is rare. > > I am skeptical to require permits for small recreational fires in the own > backyard. Processing permits requires money that the city doesn't have > and that has to be recovered by fees. It seems better to respond to > individual fires that produce too much smoke, because they are too large > or use wrong wood, or to give a city-wide warning if inversion weather > limits how fast the smoke can go away. > > > Peter Tobias > Powderhorn Park, Minneapolis > About Peter Tobias: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/2ChkPgtdoq8T77sg8eTXQU > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7k4rMh46zhA3dF4x3Vwqro > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > > > > ======= > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18290) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= ======= Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18290) http://www.pctools.com/ =======
Here's one of the problems I thought about too. If each person only had five or six or seven fires a year (we've only used ours twice this year, and may only use it one more time if even then), it would be okay if they were evenly distributed during the summer and throughout the city. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Almost all of them happen at night, they all happen on rain-free nights, most of them happen on the weekends, and many of them happen on holiday weekends. So the problem is not just the wood smoke. It's the clustering of them geographically and in time. I don't mind one neighbor burning their leaves or having a party with a fire. The problem is that many numbers of people do this on weekend nights. I'm happy to talk with a neighbor whose fire is too big and/or they're producing too much smoke. That's also not the problem, which is when fifteen fires are happening in the surrounding ten blocks. It's like one house being on fire, which is very unpleasant. Then to have that four nights a week, each night with different neighbors? Also very unpleasant. We've got to deal with this in a city-wide fashion.
With this topic going into city-wide policy and attracting posts from outside our primary geographic focus, this topic has been moved to the Minneapolis Issues Forum: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls/messages/topic/4tSEWkZd5HvDIb8EQs091b Posts with a specific Longellow connection are of course welcome here, but clearly this hot topic needs a larger venue. To join the city-wide forum, login at http://e-democracy.org/mpls I recommend the digest version.
I think it's great to see this conversation happening, even those that are predominantly emotional and lack statistical merit. If recreational fires make you happy, that is a valid point in and of itself - slamming someone else is unnecessary. My original point in suggesting that permits may make sense was to encourage everyone to contact their council member to weigh in. Since City Council would be making the decision to permit or not to permit, your input will help them to make the decision (if they are even going to make it ~ Pete is right, permitting costs something, so the City will be loathe to add another costly permitting process). Either way, this topic would have to have plenty of input for them to even put it on their agenda for discussion. With so many people weighing in here, it is easy to see that once it hits the City Council, hundreds of community members would weigh in. Here's a quote and a link for those who think recreational fires are benign: "The largest single source of outdoor fine particles entering into our homes in many American cities is our neighbor's fireplace or wood stove," says Dr. Wayne Ott of Stanford University. http://www.epa.gov/region1/communities/woodcombustion.html
What has kept this from happening? Has the Council considered this in the past? Sincerely, Andrea > From: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > To: <email obscured> > Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:15:01 +1200 > > I think it's great to see this conversation happening, even those that are predominantly emotional and lack statistical merit. If recreational fires make you happy, that is a valid point in and of itself - slamming someone else is unnecessary. > > My original point in suggesting that permits may make sense was to encourage everyone to contact their council member to weigh in. Since City Council would be making the decision to permit or not to permit, your input will help them to make the decision (if they are even going to make it ~ Pete is right, permitting costs something, so the City will be loathe to add another costly permitting process). > > Either way, this topic would have to have plenty of input for them to even put it on their agenda for discussion. With so many people weighing in here, it is easy to see that once it hits the City Council, hundreds of community members would weigh in. > > Here's a quote and a link for those who think recreational fires are benign: > > "The largest single source of outdoor fine particles entering into our homes in many American cities is our neighbor's fireplace or wood stove," says Dr. Wayne Ott of Stanford University.
> > http://www.epa.gov/region1/communities/woodcombustion.html > Annette Rondano > Highland Park, St. Paul > About Annette Rondano: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5mjBTCMsU1lBmqSDAbEdni > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2WpMecDaqVJhHYTNKHRYvO > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
As already stated above, the city already has in place rules and regulations concerning outdoor fires. We can be responsible with these rules when we have our own fires, and help educate our neighbors about the rules too. I feel there is no need for more regulation or permits. Maybe this is something your block club can take on as an educational/fun thing to do. You could have a block party and at the same time demonstrate the proper use of a fire pit! Rachel Guerrero 44th & Minnehaha
So Rachel, you're a neighbor of mine, you're saying that there's no place for public debate and public policy around wood burning at all? Then why have any sort of rules? Last weekend, when I couldn't breathe because of the concentration of wood smoke in our neighborhood, I couldn't find the fires in my immediate neighbors' yards. Are you saying I should patrol the entire neighborhood looking for the offenders? I'm clearly not the only one here who is having trouble. I'll take all the research I've done to city council. Even if they don't do anything now, perhaps we can build awareness among citizens about air quality and the increased deaths in regions that don't consider air quality in their fire regulations. Thanks for all the thoughtful posts and helping me think about this. Jeanne Hiawatha Neighborhood
Jeanne, I had understood that this discussion was being taken over to the Minneapolis Issues Forum, since all the points seemed to involve a city-wide scope. So I posted the link on that wider forum to the StarTribune story that explained where all the smoke was coming from. Here it is: http://www.startribune.com/local/east/129542788.html According to the article, the smoke is coming from the BWCA, not necessarily from your neighbors. Charley Underwood, Longfellow > From: jeanne > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > To: <email obscured> > Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 09:48:03 +1200 > > So Rachel, you're a neighbor of mine, you're saying that there's no place for public debate and public policy around wood burning at all? Then why have any sort of rules? > > Last weekend, when I couldn't breathe because of the concentration of wood smoke in our neighborhood, I couldn't find the fires in my immediate neighbors' yards. Are you saying I should patrol the entire neighborhood looking for the offenders? > > I'm clearly not the only one here who is having trouble. I'll take all the research I've done to city council. Even if they don't do anything now, perhaps we can build awareness among citizens about air quality and the increased deaths in regions that don't consider air quality in their fire regulations.
> > Thanks for all the thoughtful posts and helping me think about this. > > Jeanne > Hiawatha Neighborhood > N. Jeanne Burns > Hiawatha, Longfellow, Minneapolis > About N. Jeanne Burns: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7le9iGbvGviuqz13CRFarU > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/71tIZOPAtNwMQAbxGAWdrq > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Annette Rondano
<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> Here's a quote and a link for those who think recreational fires are benign:
>
> "The largest single source of outdoor fine particles entering into our homes
in many American cities is our neighbor's fireplace or wood stove," says Dr.
Wayne Ott of Stanford University.
Wood stoves and fireplaces are totally different situations compared
to outdoor fireplaces: Fireplaces are fired mostly in the winter, in
a more continuous manner compared to summer outdoor fires.
I don't burn outside, but most of my neighbors do it as a sort of
neighborhood activity. It is the only way I experience it is an
opportunity to visit with the neighbors.
I am afraid if we head down this road, we won't be able to hang
laundry outside and neighbors will be telling us what color our houses
have to be.
Please try to talk to your neighbors and do like I have to
do with my allergies. I can't tell my neighbors not to plant the
flowers that cause my allergies. I have to seal up the house and
turn the air conditioner on. This cooler weather has helped my
allergies!
Remember the old saying, "It is easier to put on moccasins than
it is to cover the Earth with leather."
-- Lee 李 Love in Minneapolis http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/ "Ta tIr na n-óg ar chul an tI—tIr dlainn trina chéile"—that is, "The land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent within itself." -- John O'Donohue
I appreciate the information about inversion and the air quality index. It reminds me that there are often more factors to any single issue than just the factors we ourselves immediately respond with (eg the health concerns for some of us when there's smoke of concurrent neighborhood recreational fires; the enjoyment of those same fires by others). Unless you know someone who has health concerns--or you have them yourself--that are aggravated by air pollution, fragrances, chemical sensitivities, etc., it is hard to imagine that something as "small" as a few fires can actually cause a bit of harm to anyone. I'd like to think that none of us would *choose* to start a a fire in the backyard if we knew ahead of time that it might cause a real health problem--not just an inconvenience--for one of our neighbors... unless we were on *really* bad terms with them! Thanks to those of you who are wanting to understand the concern at a deeper level.
Really, you all should have been here by our house about an hour ago. It was like a fog had descended onto our street. I couldn't breathe. If this were the Ely fire, it would be here during the day, during the week. Just so happens that today's air quality was not "good", which means there was no wind to disperse particulates of pollution, including wood smoke. We had to close our windows. To the person who suggest we close our windows and turn on AC...you're assuming we have AC! We do, and we also have solar panels. We're very conscious about when, where and how we turn on the AC. When we turn it on at night, the pollution we're keeping out of our house means more pollution for poor neighborhoods with the coal fired plant upstream. With natural cooling in the air outside, I'm resenting having to have our windows closed. Now for the second week. It's really bad tonight, and has me in tears. My throat hurts and I can't keep my eyes open. This is horrible. I'm leaving this comment in this forum because 1) I'm not a member of the Minneapolis forum and don't want to be and 2) I don't know if this is impacting anyone outside of our block even! So far no one else seems to be complaining.
I went on a nearly 2 hour walk last night starting at 9pm, an hour walk the night before, and not once did I smell wood smoke, just someone BBQing at one point. You or someone else mentioned leaf burning, which may be the culprit. Leaf smoke is awful and can easily spread across a block. And I'm guessing they're illegal to burn for that reason. If your block is filled with smoke I would call 911 because that's not normal and shouldn't be happening even if a few bonfires were going. On Sep 10, 2011 10:33 PM, "N. Jeanne Burns" <email obscured>> wrote: > Really, you all should have been here by our house about an hour ago. It was like a fog had descended onto our street. I couldn't breathe. If this were the Ely fire, it would be here during the day, during the week. Just so happens that today's air quality was not "good", which means there was no wind to disperse particulates of pollution, including wood smoke. We had to close our windows. > > To the person who suggest we close our windows and turn on AC...you're assuming we have AC! > > We do, and we also have solar panels. We're very conscious about when, where and how we turn on the AC. When we turn it on at night, the pollution we're keeping out of our house means more pollution for poor neighborhoods with the coal fired plant upstream. With natural cooling in the air outside, I'm resenting having to have our windows closed. Now for the second week. It's really bad tonight, and has me in tears. My throat hurts and I can't keep my eyes open. > > This is horrible. > > I'm leaving this comment in this forum because 1) I'm not a member of the Minneapolis forum and don't want to be and 2) I don't know if this is impacting anyone outside of our block even! So far no one else seems to be complaining. > N. Jeanne Burns > Hiawatha, Longfellow, Minneapolis > About N. Jeanne Burns: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7le9iGbvGviuqz13CRFarU > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4jExEk90b2rhbv0kyoS5Qb > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
This may be funny to some of you. When I moved into this neighborhood five years ago, every once in awhile I would smell something burning. The first several times this happened I ran all over my house, then to the garage, thinking something was surely burning down. As it continues over the years, I become less alarmed that my (or a nearby) house is on fire. Beyond that I didn't give it much thought, I like the smell of woodsmoke and it was enjoyable in a kind of uneasy out-of-place kind of way. And so I read this thread and find out it is outdoor fires! I had never even thought of it. So. Good to know there are no worries when I smell the woodfire. Surprises me hugely, though--we quit burning outdoors in my rural hometown more than 30 years ago. I have always missed that smell of the burning leaves and the summer fires (marshmallows, hotdogs) and it is a fond nostalgia for me. And I have to say I am shocked that it is alive and well in urban areas. I will look into the pollution pros and cons, now that I know this is an option. Maybe I'll have that hotdog roast again! Anyway, good to know the neighborhood isn't burning down.
The smoke doesn't bother me to the extent it does Jeanne - however, having been out of the city all day and then driving home tonight around 9 pm what I noticed all through our neighborhood on the way home was a lot of fires, to the extent it smelled like a house fire as I drove through. I also found myself wondering how "safe" it was for all these fires after over a week of no rain. I was also thinking about the regulations which indicated at least 25 feet from a structure (house, garage, fence, etc) and wondered how many people truly have a backyard big enough to have a fire. I truly enjoy backyard fires, but it did make me wonder. Also the other problem with rules on fires and permits and such is enforcement. Jaxi the Scuba Diva :-)
--- On Sat, 9/10/11, N. Jeanne Burns <email obscured>> wrote: From: N. Jeanne Burns <email obscured>> Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality To: <email obscured> Date: Saturday, September 10, 2011, 10:33 PM Really, you all should have been here by our house about an hour ago. It was like a fog had descended onto our street. I couldn't breathe. If this were the Ely fire, it would be here during the day, during the week. Just so happens that today's air quality was not "good", which means there was no wind to disperse particulates of pollution, including wood smoke. We had to close our windows. To the person who suggest we close our windows and turn on AC...you're assuming we have AC! We do, and we also have solar panels. We're very conscious about when, where and how we turn on the AC. When we turn it on at night, the pollution we're keeping out of our house means more pollution for poor neighborhoods with the coal fired plant upstream. With natural cooling in the air outside, I'm resenting having to have our windows closed. Now for the second week. It's really bad tonight, and has me in tears. My throat hurts and I can't keep my eyes open. This is horrible. I'm leaving this comment in this forum because 1) I'm not a member of the Minneapolis forum and don't want to be and 2) I don't know if this is impacting anyone outside of our block even! So far no one else seems to be complaining. N. Jeanne Burns Hiawatha, Longfellow, Minneapolis About N. Jeanne Burns: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7le9iGbvGviuqz13CRFarU View full topic, share on Facebook and more: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4jExEk90b2rhbv0kyoS5Qb Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
Thats part of my worry. Our lots are only 40 feet wide here andI have lots of shrubs. Once I stayed up until midnight due to having seen so many sparks from a neighbors going higher than my house. I doubt many lots have the room when the garages are separate at the rear. I was worried about a house fire. Sincerely, Andrea > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:25:45 -0700 > From: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > To: <email obscured> > > The smoke doesn't bother me to the extent it does Jeanne - however, having been out of the city all day and then driving home tonight around 9 pm what I noticed all through our neighborhood on the way home was a lot of fires, to the extent it smelled like a house fire as I drove through. I also found myself wondering how "safe" it was for all these fires after over a week of no rain. > I was also thinking about the regulations which indicated at least 25 feet from a structure (house, garage, fence, etc) and wondered how many people truly have a backyard big enough to have a fire. I truly enjoy backyard fires, but it did make me wonder. > Also the other problem with rules on fires and permits and such is enforcement. > Jaxi the Scuba Diva :-) > > --- On Sat, 9/10/11, N. Jeanne Burns <email obscured>> wrote: > > From: N. Jeanne Burns <email obscured>> > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > To: <email obscured> > Date: Saturday, September 10, 2011, 10:33 PM > > Really, you all should have been here by our house about an hour ago. It was like a fog had descended onto our street. I couldn't breathe. If this were the Ely fire, it would be here during the day, during the week. Just so happens that today's air quality was not "good", which means there was no wind to disperse particulates of pollution, including wood smoke. We had to close our windows. > > To the person who suggest we close our windows and turn on AC...you're assuming we have AC! > > We do, and we also have solar panels. We're very conscious about when, where and how we turn on the AC. When we turn it on at night, the pollution we're keeping out of our house means more pollution for poor neighborhoods with the coal fired plant upstream. With natural cooling in the air outside, I'm resenting having to have our windows closed. Now for the second week. It's really bad tonight, and has me in tears. My throat hurts and I can't keep my eyes open. > > This is horrible. > > I'm leaving this comment in this forum because 1) I'm not a member of the Minneapolis forum and don't want to be and 2) I don't know if this is impacting anyone outside of our block even! So far no one else seems to be complaining.
> N. Jeanne Burns > Hiawatha, Longfellow, Minneapolis > About N. Jeanne Burns: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7le9iGbvGviuqz13CRFarU > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4jExEk90b2rhbv0kyoS5Qb > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net > > Jacqueline Schulz > Longfellow, Minneapolis > About Jaxi Schulz: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7E4mBgFPDcjzN59w2C0mOP > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3susyOM5xz1Xexu8PXhTCP > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
WCCO tv ran a short story on this issue earlier this summer: http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/06/20/writer-authorities-should-ban-backyard-fire-pits/ Like most TV news stories it does not delve too deeply into the issue but it is interesting to hear the opinion of the MPCAs air policy supervisor.
Those pit things don't control cinders from flying away? I do think the city should require that fire pits control the fire danger part. It gets dry in the city here sometimes. A fire danger should not be allowed. Jim Mork, Cooper
The Health Effects of Wood Smoke § Although wood smoke conjures up fond memories of sitting by a cozy fire, it is important to know that the components of wood smoke and cigarette smoke are quite similar, and that many components of both are carcinogenic. Wood smoke contains fine particulate matter, carbon monoxide, formaldehyde, sulfur dioxide and various irritant gases such as nitrogen oxides that can scar the lungs. Wood smoke also contains chemicals known or suspected to be carcinogens, such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and dioxin. § Wood smoke interferes with normal lung development in infants and children. It also increases children’s risk of lower respiratory infections such as bronchitis and pneumonia. § Wood smoke exposure can depress the immune system and damage the layer of cells in the lungs that protect and cleanse the airways. § According to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), toxic air pollutants are components of wood smoke. Wood smoke can cause coughs, headaches, eye, and throat irritation in otherwise healthy people. § For vulnerable populations, such as people with asthma, chronic respiratory disease and those with cardiovascular disease, wood smoke is particularly harmful— even short exposures can prove dangerous. § The particles of wood smoke are extremely small and therefore are not filtered out by the nose or the upper respiratory system. Instead, these small particles end up deep in the lungs where they remain for months, causing structural damage and chemical changes. Wood smoke’s carcinogenic chemicals adhere to these tiny particles, which enter deep into the lungs. § Recent studies show that fine particles that go deep into the lungs increase the risk of heart attacks and strokes. EPA warns that for people with heart disease, short- term exposures have been linked to heart attacks and arrhythmias. If you have heart disease, these tiny particles may cause you to experience chest pain, palpitations, shortness of breath, and fatigue. § The particulate matter in wood smoke is so small that windows and doors cannot keep it out—even the newer energy-efficient weather-tight homes cannot keep out wood smoke. § The EPA estimates that a single fireplace operating for an hour and burning 10 pounds of wood will generate 4,300 times more PAHs than 30 cigarettes. PAHs are carcinogenic. http://www.ehhi.org/woodsmoke/health_effects.shtml Eileen Shore Eileen Shore
-----Original Message----- From: <email obscured> <email obscured>] On Behalf Of andrea schaerf Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 12:05 AM To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality Thats part of my worry. Our lots are only 40 feet wide here andI have lots of shrubs. Once I stayed up until midnight due to having seen so many sparks from a neighbors going higher than my house. I doubt many lots have the room when the garages are separate at the rear. I was worried about a house fire. Sincerely, Andrea > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:25:45 -0700 > From: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > To: <email obscured> > > The smoke doesn't bother me to the extent it does Jeanne - however, having been out of the city all day and then driving home tonight around 9 pm what I noticed all through our neighborhood on the way home was a lot of fires, to the extent it smelled like a house fire as I drove through. I also found myself wondering how "safe" it was for all these fires after over a week of no rain. > I was also thinking about the regulations which indicated at least 25 feet from a structure (house, garage, fence, etc) and wondered how many people truly have a backyard big enough to have a fire. I truly enjoy backyard fires, but it did make me wonder. > Also the other problem with rules on fires and permits and such is enforcement. > Jaxi the Scuba Diva :-) > > --- On Sat, 9/10/11, N. Jeanne Burns <email obscured>> wrote: > > From: N. Jeanne Burns <email obscured>> > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > To: <email obscured> > Date: Saturday, September 10, 2011, 10:33 PM > > Really, you all should have been here by our house about an hour ago. It was like a fog had descended onto our street. I couldn't breathe. If this were the Ely fire, it would be here during the day, during the week. Just so happens that today's air quality was not "good", which means there was no wind to disperse particulates of pollution, including wood smoke. We had to close our windows. > > To the person who suggest we close our windows and turn on AC...you're assuming we have AC! > > We do, and we also have solar panels. We're very conscious about when, where and how we turn on the AC. When we turn it on at night, the pollution we're keeping out of our house means more pollution for poor neighborhoods with the coal fired plant upstream. With natural cooling in the air outside, I'm resenting having to have our windows closed. Now for the second week. It's really bad tonight, and has me in tears. My throat hurts and I can't keep my eyes open. > > This is horrible. > > I'm leaving this comment in this forum because 1) I'm not a member of the Minneapolis forum and don't want to be and 2) I don't know if this is impacting anyone outside of our block even! So far no one else seems to be complaining. > N. Jeanne Burns > Hiawatha, Longfellow, Minneapolis > About N. Jeanne Burns: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7le9iGbvGviuqz13CRFarU > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4jExEk90b2rhbv0kyoS5Qb > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net > > Jacqueline Schulz > Longfellow, Minneapolis > About Jaxi Schulz: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7E4mBgFPDcjzN59w2C0mOP > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3susyOM5xz1Xexu8PXhTCP > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net andrea schaerf longfellow, minneapolis About andrea schaerf: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/andreaschaerf View full topic, share on Facebook and more: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4lJXmL49v0XsX2PbS5tGrk Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
I've approved a few posts from first time posters (everyone is moderated temporarily when they join.) Just a reminder that this topic has gone city-wide and posts without a direct reference to Longfellow should go here: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4IHU3nk1AoXWjSiPBsil2J It is fine to share general information on a "local everywhere" topic from within the neighborhood, but keeping the Longfellow connection mentioned is helpful. Also, as each neighborhood forum has a local scope tied to their specific neighborhood, if you actually live in another area it is best to either take the topic to the city-wide forum or start a local version with your direct neighbors. The expection of course is if you can make a specific tie to the Longfellow area in this case. (This might include for example actions a local city council member you jointly share with this area is taking, etc.) FYI - All of our very open and public issues forums keep things local based on the scope in the charter and not resident-only requirements. So, now that there is a city-wide topic, that is where I ask those outside of Longfellow to take further discussion. And if you haven't filled out your neighborhood in your member profile - login at http://e-democracy.org to update - there may be a delay in approving first time posts. Thanks, Steven Clift
I am wondering if folks problem with smoke is related to local
geography. We never have problems in my neighborhood. But we live
on 36th Ave which is broad, without the strip of trees and grass
between the road and sidewalk. While the canopy is not as nice as
most streets, the openness might aid in air circulation.
My personal concern is that an outdoor fire ban is
legislated (if you have to get your neighbors permission every time
you have a fire, it is equivalent to a ban), the next thing to be
banned will be fireplaces and wood stoves. With petroleum fuel
becoming more expensive, we might have to rely more on wood in the
winter. Especially if you are on a fixed income.
-- Lee 李 Love in Minneapolis http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/ "Ta tIr na n-óg ar chul an tI—tIr dlainn trina chéile"—that is, "The land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee may be right about geography. I'm asthmatic and pretty sensitive to wood smoke, but in four years living in Longfellow, I've only had trouble with outdoor fire pits twice. Those both involved the next-door neighbor deciding that 10:00 on a night when the wind was blowing from their pit to our house would be the perfect time to start up a backyard party. In both cases, we resolved the problem by talking to the neighbor in question immediately. It could be a matter of tree cover trapping the smoke, or maybe fire pits are just more popular in Jeanne's immediate area. I would not support a permitting requirement for a fire pit, certainly not if it requires the permission of every neighbor within two blocks. (Frankly, I think that requirement is pretty ridiculous for hens, anyway.) I wouldn't make light of Jeanne's problems with wood smoke, but I don't see the compelling evidence that fire pits are the problem, or that a burdensome permitting process is a necessary solution.
I tend to agree with you. Permits would be cumbersome and the city probably wouldneed to hire to manage it. I would like some way though that assesses where in our small yards, people can have fires. I think some are too small. If there is a 40 by 120 lot with a separate garage, a lot of the space is taken. I think fireplaces and wood stoves may contribute less to in house pollution due to the requirements for chimneys to be high enough for the smoke to go into the atmosphere. Sincerely, Andrea > From: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > To: <email obscured> > Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 03:54:02 +1200 > > Lee may be right about geography. I'm asthmatic and pretty sensitive to wood smoke, but in four years living in Longfellow, I've only had trouble with outdoor fire pits twice. Those both involved the next-door neighbor deciding that 10:00 on a night when the wind was blowing from their pit to our house would be the perfect time to start up a backyard party. In both cases, we resolved the problem by talking to the neighbor in question immediately. It could be a matter of tree cover trapping the smoke, or maybe fire pits are just more popular in Jeanne's immediate area. > > I would not support a permitting requirement for a fire pit, certainly not if it requires the permission of every neighbor within two blocks. (Frankly, I think that requirement is pretty ridiculous for hens, anyway.) I wouldn't make light of Jeanne's problems with wood smoke, but I don't see the compelling evidence that fire pits are the problem, or that a burdensome permitting process is a necessary solution.
> Jim Crants > Longfellow, Minneapolis > About Jim Crants: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5hAfoUGAtrTfJzeDEfW8c3 > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/fUP1P7lKAigQZqBFqGC2g > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
Air quality was supposed to be GOOD today, but now is forecast to be MODERATE because of a significant increase in ozone. The forecast has gone up all day. Originally it was supposed to be 35 (0-50 is GOOD) and now they're saying 61 (50-100 is MODERATE). PLEASE if you're going to have an outdoor fire, consider making it a very small one, burning only three logs. And checking in with your neighbors. I've documented it...these are the days when woodsmoke lingers and causes me health problems.
My question for everyone is - when cooking is put in play, then what? Some of us love to cook with smoke, myself included. If it is with mesquite, hickory, or apple wood, it will include the smoldering of water soaked chips or small logs for hours, sometimes up to 18-20 continuous hours. I found it funny, but also sad, when the fire department was called to our house on 36th Ave with a report of a "structural fire". I was in our back yard with a friend smoking beef brisket for a work BBQ. I generate more wood smoke from cooking in our back yard than from the 2-3 fires w have a year with our fire pit.
What did the Fire Department say about your fire and cooking? Sincerely, Andrea > From: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > To: <email obscured> > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:36:00 +1200 > > My question for everyone is - when cooking is put in play, then what? > > Some of us love to cook with smoke, myself included. If it is with mesquite, hickory, or apple wood, it will include the smoldering of water soaked chips or small logs for hours, sometimes up to 18-20 continuous hours. > > I found it funny, but also sad, when the fire department was called to our house on 36th Ave with a report of a "structural fire". I was in our back yard with a friend smoking beef brisket for a work BBQ. > > I generate more wood smoke from cooking in our back yard than from the 2-3 fires w have a year with our fire pit.
> > John Haggerty > > About jghaggerty: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/78WFVFWZCC4AWYL5kRYbKS > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4fubPDcei2HvNTB2lkFwlM > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
Andrea, They shook their heads, laughed, and left.
John
I have received many more complaints about not being able to talk about the fire pit issue on the Longfellow forum than complaints about the issue being city-wide. So to clarify, there simply needs to be a Longfellow connection in the posts on this topic on this forum. As we've seen, that might be something you've specifically experienced within Longfellow as a resident, etc. So, keep on posting here if there is a Longfellow connection to your posts. The key is this - as an open forum about Longfellow, open to anyone willing to stay within our local scope, if you live outside the area and do not include a connection in your comments tied to Longfellow specifically, then you need to instead start a similar topic within your own neighborhood forum or take the topic city-wide. If you don't have a forum in your neighborhood, please help start or request one: http://tcneighbors.org If you are not a member of the city-wide forum, you can join here: http://e-democracy.org/mpls Thanks, Steven Clift Interim Forum Manager Steven Clift - http://stevenclift.com Executive Director - http://E-Democracy.Org Follow me - http://twitter.com/democracy New Tel: +1.612.234.7072
Ok Longfellow resident here. I faintly smell neighbors fire pits---seriously---- lets get rid of all the Empty Storefronts and Graffiti and plummeting amounts of break-in's and shootings, and theft in Longfellow first. I see no one is talking about the shooting the other afternoon in Longfellow. Let's not give the Minneapolis Mafia something else to charge a permit for goodness sakes!!!! Let's have a program where all the graffiti is removed from people's garages - and empty buildings in Longfellow-- Let's have a program where we can fill Empty Storefronts with sustainable business's that can afford East Lake street. Seriously, --empty your gutters, buy an air purifier, stop using fabric softener and hair spray...and after shave if you are worried about fire pits. I get way sicker with smelling the airport than ever a fire pit fire. I'm with Mr. Johnson. Gina Palandri Longfellow
Reality Check: Folks need to reconsider the "smoke smell" they've been experiencing in Longfellow recently. I heard on the news that the 100,000 acre Boundary Waters fires have been effecting us all week. The smoke from the fires have been going as far as Madison and Chicago. The fire was caused by lightening. I bet it didn't have a permit!
-- Lee 李 Love in Minneapolis http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/ "Ta tIr na n-óg ar chul an tI—tIr dlainn trina chéile"—that is, "The land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent within itself." -- John O'Donohue
I was hoping to make it to the community mtg last evening but unable to. Concern is my son's car (he's an adult living in the neighborhood too) was stolen Sunday night and they still have not located it.
-----Original Message----- From: <email obscured> <email obscured>] On Behalf Of Gina Palandri Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:03 PM To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality Ok Longfellow resident here. I faintly smell neighbors fire pits---seriously---- lets get rid of all the Empty Storefronts and Graffiti and plummeting amounts of break-in's and shootings, and theft in Longfellow first. I see no one is talking about the shooting the other afternoon in Longfellow. Let's not give the Minneapolis Mafia something else to charge a permit for goodness sakes!!!! Let's have a program where all the graffiti is removed from people's garages - and empty buildings in Longfellow-- Let's have a program where we can fill Empty Storefronts with sustainable business's that can afford East Lake street. Seriously, --empty your gutters, buy an air purifier, stop using fabric softener and hair spray...and after shave if you are worried about fire pits. I get way sicker with smelling the airport than ever a fire pit fire. I'm with Mr. Johnson. Gina Palandri Longfellow Gina Palandri About Gina Palandri: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/ginapalandri View full topic, share on Facebook and more: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2ai6q1VUhSmjf0HKC0dm1N Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
Thanks, Gina. But if I can't breathe, none of the other stuff matters. We never use anything scented, we can't take it. Only scent/dye-free laundry detergent, etc. We can hardly even paint our home inside, even with supposed no-VOC paints. The place is looking depressing but we have no choice. I spent a fortune replacing all our storm windows with windows that supposedly will keep a lot more of the pollution out, but wood smoke particulates are so small they come through around the windows. I've spent over $1000 a year on air purifiers. I have about EIGHT of them, each one costing over $450, and they use a LOT of electricity! The filters are expensive to change out. With continuous use, the motors wear out and they have to be replaced. They help but they don't completely do the trick. We find that we NEED to bring in outdoor air, that the indoor air even with all of our air cleaners going makes us sick. Even when it's 10 below out, we have windows cracked open. I've looked into whole house air exchangers that minimize heat loss, but the cost is prohibitive and we need to be able to quickly close off the air flow when there is strong pollution outside, esp. "recreational" fires. So here we are running air cleaners with windows strategically open in the middle of winter, and the cost and energy waste so that the neighbors can have "recreational" fires is ridiculous. The problem is all about insensitivity. Amazing that so many people just can't comprehend or empathize with other human beings in their community who have serious physical inabilities to deal with the instense pollution put out by fires. Just because YOU personally aren't suffering from it, you cannot imagine that other people are. Or if they are, too bad, Charlie, just man up and take it. Truly insensitive. Truly. So you must also think cigarette smoking should be allowed everywhere in public, too? On buses, in waiting rooms, etc.? After all, smoking is SO much fun, and such a deep-rooted tradition going back to our primal millenia. Pete Wagner
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gina Palandri" <email obscured>> To: <> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:03 PM Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > Ok Longfellow resident here. > I faintly smell neighbors fire pits---seriously---- lets get rid of all > the Empty Storefronts and Graffiti and plummeting amounts of break-in's > and shootings, and theft in Longfellow first. > > I see no one is talking about the shooting the other afternoon in > Longfellow. > > Let's not give the Minneapolis Mafia something else to charge a permit for > goodness sakes!!!! > > Let's have a program where all the graffiti is removed from people's > garages - and empty buildings in Longfellow-- > > Let's have a program where we can fill Empty Storefronts with sustainable > business's that can afford East Lake street. > > Seriously, --empty your gutters, buy an air purifier, stop using fabric > softener and hair spray...and after shave if you are worried about fire > pits. > > I get way sicker with smelling the airport than ever a fire pit fire. > > I'm with Mr. Johnson. > > Gina Palandri > Longfellow > Gina Palandri > > About Gina Palandri: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/ginapalandri > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2ai6q1VUhSmjf0HKC0dm1N > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > > > > ======= > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18310) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= ======= Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) http://www.pctools.com/ =======
My thought: If the laws allowed it, would we pollute each other's drinking water? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing no. How is it different to pollute something like the atmosphere we share? We are great individualists, but it does lead to a lot of suffering by different people in different ways. Yet, we can't stop being solipsistic. Jim Mork Cooper http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary)
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Jim Mork <email obscured>> wrote:
> My thought: If the laws allowed it, would we pollute each other's drinking
> water? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing no. How is it different to pollute
> something like the atmosphere we share? We are great individualists, but it
> does lead to a lot of suffering by different people in different ways. Yet,
> we can't stop being solipsistic.
>
Yes. We overlook the primary way we all pollute the air: The automobile
gasoline engine, and point fingers anywhere we can't take the blame.
Actually, My friend who was in Gov. Jerry Brown's administration and
was responsible for helping get the first wind generated power established
there during Brown's first administration worked with an engineer
in Wisconsin, developing a wood fired plant that depended on its own woodlot
with fast growing trees (five years to harvest) to power it. He explained to
me, that if you grow trees for fuel, unlike petrochemicals, you take 2/3rds
of the carbon the tree captures and hold it in the woods in the form of
roots and humus creating debris, taking carbon out of the air while burning
it in fuel.
It is what I call the "toilet flush" mentality: People don't
worry about their waste when they can't see it, it is "flushed away."
Junk your car and get rid of central heating, and you go a long
way to cleaning up the air. In Japan, because of mass transit and more
efficent use of fuel, their carbon footprint is about 1/3rd the footprint
of the average American. Canadians have a bigger carbon footprint than
Americans, because it is colder there and they have to travel farther
distances.
We make so many irrational decisions because we don't educate
ourselves with the facts.
-- Lee 李 Love in Minneapolis http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/ "Ta tIr na n-óg ar chul an tI—tIr dlainn trina chéile"—that is, "The land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Interesting you stated that Japan had a much smaller carbon footprint. Yet they have made one huge radioactive one. I think I would prefer wood or gas. We can make our vehicles more efficient asto polluting the environment, even trains could be. Japan is small and over poloulated compared to the US. We still haul goods across long stretches of miles by fuel belching trucks. Sincerely, Andrea > From: <email obscured> > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:01:33 -0500 > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > To: <email obscured> > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Jim Mork <email obscured>> wrote: > > > My thought: If the laws allowed it, would we pollute each other's drinking > > water? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing no. How is it different to pollute > > something like the atmosphere we share? We are great individualists, but it > > does lead to a lot of suffering by different people in different ways. Yet,
> > we can't stop being solipsistic. > > > > Yes. We overlook the primary way we all pollute the air: The automobile > gasoline engine, and point fingers anywhere we can't take the blame. > > Actually, My friend who was in Gov. Jerry Brown's administration and > was responsible for helping get the first wind generated power established > there during Brown's first administration worked with an engineer > in Wisconsin, developing a wood fired plant that depended on its own woodlot > with fast growing trees (five years to harvest) to power it. He explained to > me, that if you grow trees for fuel, unlike petrochemicals, you take 2/3rds > of the carbon the tree captures and hold it in the woods in the form of > roots and humus creating debris, taking carbon out of the air while burning > it in fuel. > It is what I call the "toilet flush" mentality: People don't > worry about their waste when they can't see it, it is "flushed away." > > Junk your car and get rid of central heating, and you go a long > way to cleaning up the air. In Japan, because of mass transit and more > efficent use of fuel, their carbon footprint is about 1/3rd the footprint > of the average American. Canadians have a bigger carbon footprint than > Americans, because it is colder there and they have to travel farther > distances. > > We make so many irrational decisions because we don't educate > ourselves with the facts. > -- > Lee Love in Minneapolis > http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/ > > "Ta tIr na n-g ar chul an tItIr dlainn trina chile"that is, "The land > of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent within > itself." -- John O'Donohue > > Lee Love > Longfellow, Minneapolis > About Lee Love: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5V2ShgU7Kv9zM4ZXbW4GA6 > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2nYSTbcSyjbebYjM8BuoXl > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
Lee Love - off topic a little, but from your posts (mostly the ones about your red car parked on the street) I think you live directly across the street from me on 36th Ave. I'm the red & white house (freshly painted in June, used to be white w/brown trim), 3224. I've lived there about three years & I'm not great at introducing myself, etc. (I know the neighbors on either side of me & 2 across my alley), so hello neighbor. I've seen you walking your dog & was tempted by your yard sale earlier in the Summer, but was unfortunately busy w/work & other things. As for the fires, I love that smell this time of year, but don't have an indoor or outdoor fire option. I have seasonal allergies that are currently bad, but doubt I'd notice a difference if fires were eliminated - they spike late Spring/early fall under any circumstances. I sympathize w/others who suffer due to air quality, but just as nobody else can speak for you, we also can't take up your fight. I do agree that there are higher priorities than this.
And if someone were physically disabled in an obvious way, in a wheelchair, would you just mow them down because you were "enjoying" driving your car so much it was such a bother to take your foot off the accelerator and turn the wheel to avoid hitting them? People with breathing and immune disabilities are seriously injured by "recreational" fires. Pete Wagner
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Mork" <email obscured>> To: <> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > My thought: If the laws allowed it, would we pollute each other's drinking > water? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing no. How is it different to pollute > something like the atmosphere we share? We are great individualists, but > it does lead to a lot of suffering by different people in different ways. > Yet, we can't stop being solipsistic. > > Jim Mork > Cooper > http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary) > Jim Mork > Cooper, Minneapolis > About Jim Mork: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7DauDItXmI19OGtd6usQGS > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1c1CbVDYGT7gho14zMokra > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > > > > ======= > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= ======= Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) http://www.pctools.com/ =======
After I started the first student environmental organization in Wisconsin at the age of 15 in 1970 and we got the city of Milwaukee to start a recycling program, led litter cleanup drives along the lakefront and cleaned the Milwaukee River, I decided to do 3 things to help the environment: 1. not have children 2. stop eating meat 3. avoid driving or owning an internal combustion vehicle for as long as I possibly could I kept with the first two, mostly vegan in fact still 41 years later. Eventually I had to give in and start driving, but I managed to avoid it until I was 34 years old, by using mass transit, walking and biking. Mass transit here went downhill during that time so it became impractical. I had given up a lot of opportunities to make a better living and got stuck living in the city because of this choice, never was willing to move to the burbs or to a smaller city or town as I would have liked to. For what I've given up, I would think people who "enjoy" fires in their yards could give those up in an effort to minimize polluting the air. It is asking VERY little. Pete Wagner
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee" <email obscured>> To: <> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Jim Mork <email obscured>> wrote: > >> My thought: If the laws allowed it, would we pollute each other's >> drinking >> water? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing no. How is it different to >> pollute >> something like the atmosphere we share? We are great individualists, but >> it >> does lead to a lot of suffering by different people in different ways. >> Yet, >> we can't stop being solipsistic. >> > > Yes. We overlook the primary way we all pollute the air: The automobile > gasoline engine, and point fingers anywhere we can't take the blame. > > Actually, My friend who was in Gov. Jerry Brown's administration and > was responsible for helping get the first wind generated power established > there during Brown's first administration worked with an engineer > in Wisconsin, developing a wood fired plant that depended on its own > woodlot > with fast growing trees (five years to harvest) to power it. He explained > to > me, that if you grow trees for fuel, unlike petrochemicals, you take > 2/3rds > of the carbon the tree captures and hold it in the woods in the form of > roots and humus creating debris, taking carbon out of the air while > burning > it in fuel. > It is what I call the "toilet flush" mentality: People don't > worry about their waste when they can't see it, it is "flushed away." > > Junk your car and get rid of central heating, and you go a long > way to cleaning up the air. In Japan, because of mass transit and more > efficent use of fuel, their carbon footprint is about 1/3rd the footprint > of the average American. Canadians have a bigger carbon footprint than > Americans, because it is colder there and they have to travel farther > distances. > > We make so many irrational decisions because we don't educate > ourselves with the facts. > -- > Lee 李 Love in Minneapolis > http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/ > > "Ta tIr na n-óg ar chul an tI—tIr dlainn trina chéile"—that is, "The land > of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent within > itself." -- John O'Donohue > > Lee Love > Longfellow, Minneapolis > About Lee Love: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5V2ShgU7Kv9zM4ZXbW4GA6 > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2nYSTbcSyjbebYjM8BuoXl > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > > > > ======= > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= ======= Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) http://www.pctools.com/ =======
Maybe use a large Park or gather neighbors and meet at the park for a small fire and marshmallows. Every house doesnt need a fire in its yard. Sincerely, Andrea > From: <email obscured>
> To: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:18:47 -0500 > > After I started the first student environmental organization in Wisconsin at > the age of 15 in 1970 and we got the city of Milwaukee to start a recycling > program, led litter cleanup drives along the lakefront and cleaned the > Milwaukee River, I decided to do 3 things to help the environment: > > 1. not have children > 2. stop eating meat > 3. avoid driving or owning an internal combustion vehicle for as long as I > possibly could > > I kept with the first two, mostly vegan in fact still 41 years later. > > Eventually I had to give in and start driving, but I managed to avoid it > until I was 34 years old, by using mass transit, walking and biking. Mass > transit here went downhill during that time so it became impractical. I had > given up a lot of opportunities to make a better living and got stuck living > in the city because of this choice, never was willing to move to the burbs > or to a smaller city or town as I would have liked to. > > For what I've given up, I would think people who "enjoy" fires in their > yards could give those up in an effort to minimize polluting the air. It is > asking VERY little. > > Pete Wagner > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lee" <email obscured>> > To: <> > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:01 PM > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > > > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Jim Mork <email obscured>> wrote: > > > >> My thought: If the laws allowed it, would we pollute each other's > >> drinking > >> water? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing no. How is it different to > >> pollute > >> something like the atmosphere we share? We are great individualists, but > >> it > >> does lead to a lot of suffering by different people in different ways. > >> Yet, > >> we can't stop being solipsistic. > >> > > > > Yes. We overlook the primary way we all pollute the air: The automobile > > gasoline engine, and point fingers anywhere we can't take the blame. > > > > Actually, My friend who was in Gov. Jerry Brown's administration and > > was responsible for helping get the first wind generated power established > > there during Brown's first administration worked with an engineer > > in Wisconsin, developing a wood fired plant that depended on its own > > woodlot > > with fast growing trees (five years to harvest) to power it. He explained > > to > > me, that if you grow trees for fuel, unlike petrochemicals, you take > > 2/3rds > > of the carbon the tree captures and hold it in the woods in the form of > > roots and humus creating debris, taking carbon out of the air while > > burning > > it in fuel. > > It is what I call the "toilet flush" mentality: People don't > > worry about their waste when they can't see it, it is "flushed away." > > > > Junk your car and get rid of central heating, and you go a long > > way to cleaning up the air. In Japan, because of mass transit and more > > efficent use of fuel, their carbon footprint is about 1/3rd the footprint > > of the average American. Canadians have a bigger carbon footprint than > > Americans, because it is colder there and they have to travel farther > > distances. > > > > We make so many irrational decisions because we don't educate > > ourselves with the facts. > > -- > > Lee Love in Minneapolis > > http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/ > > > > "Ta tIr na n-g ar chul an tItIr dlainn trina chile"that is, "The land > > of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent within > > itself." -- John O'Donohue > > > > Lee Love > > Longfellow, Minneapolis > > About Lee Love: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5V2ShgU7Kv9zM4ZXbW4GA6 > > > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2nYSTbcSyjbebYjM8BuoXl > > > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > > comment publicly. > > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > > subject. > > > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > > > > > > > > > ======= > > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) > > http://www.pctools.com/ > > ======= > > > > > > ======= > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= > > Pete Wagner > Seward, Minneapolis > About Pete Wagner: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/6exa5qd7mHNfNv31e9legp > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7seC1Xmg3jKKnP78EA9kin > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
Apparently, sometime in the 1970s, Minneapolis put in restrictions on fireplaces in construction and renovation. If you install a fireplace, you have to either install a wood stove with a catalytic converter, or install a catalytic converter to burn off almost all the particulates out of the wood smoke. Also, your chimney had to be above a certain height not only to prevent fire but also to put the smoke up high enough so to get more easily blown away and have the particulates more dispersed. This was out of a concern for the amount of pollution wood smoke caused and the lower air quality caused by the concentration of fire burning devices. All of the existing rules about recreational backyard fires are about fire safety. Unfortunately, when you light a backyard fire when there are very low or no winds, as per the law, you're lighting a fire when air quality is likely to be moderate and then made worse by the number of backyard fire pits there are. Just the other night I was biking home and hit three blocks of dense smoke south of 38th St on 41st Ave. It was a night with low or no winds. And a weekend night. I couldn't see a backyard fire, but something was causing it. I'd love the city take up this public health issues as an educational campaign. Much the way green living and biking has spread, perhaps we can spread the news about this issue. And tell people that being moderate in the number and size of fires, we can avoid any kind of permitting process or even consider a ban. We could develop guidelines (about the number of logs, for instance) for a two or three hour party. And educate folks about air quality. I started a facebook page that just talks about air quality so people can be aware of that. LIKE it and get one daily update about air quality in Minneapolis, and the occasional environmental update about air quality. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Air-Quality-Minneapolis/272590206103269
Jeanne
Thank you, Jeanne. This is very useful and interesting. And as I read the arguments from the pyro-libertarians who want no controls on "recreational" fires, I keep being amazed at the line of "reasoning" that "it's already so bad, why not make it worse." Pete Wagner
----- Original Message ----- From: "N. Jeanne Burns" <email obscured>> To: <> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > Apparently, sometime in the 1970s, Minneapolis put in restrictions on > fireplaces in construction and renovation. If you install a fireplace, you > have to either install a wood stove with a catalytic converter, or install > a catalytic converter to burn off almost all the particulates out of the > wood smoke. > > Also, your chimney had to be above a certain height not only to prevent > fire but also to put the smoke up high enough so to get more easily blown > away and have the particulates more dispersed. > > This was out of a concern for the amount of pollution wood smoke caused > and the lower air quality caused by the concentration of fire burning > devices. > > All of the existing rules about recreational backyard fires are about fire > safety. Unfortunately, when you light a backyard fire when there are very > low or no winds, as per the law, you're lighting a fire when air quality > is likely to be moderate and then made worse by the number of backyard > fire pits there are. > > Just the other night I was biking home and hit three blocks of dense smoke > south of 38th St on 41st Ave. It was a night with low or no winds. And a > weekend night. I couldn't see a backyard fire, but something was causing > it. > > I'd love the city take up this public health issues as an educational > campaign. Much the way green living and biking has spread, perhaps we can > spread the news about this issue. And tell people that being moderate in > the number and size of fires, we can avoid any kind of permitting process > or even consider a ban. We could develop guidelines (about the number of > logs, for instance) for a two or three hour party. And educate folks about > air quality. > > I started a facebook page that just talks about air quality so people can > be aware of that. LIKE it and get one daily update about air quality in > Minneapolis, and the occasional environmental update about air quality. > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/Air-Quality-Minneapolis/272590206103269 > > Jeanne > > > N. Jeanne Burns > Hiawatha, Longfellow, Minneapolis > About N. Jeanne Burns: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7le9iGbvGviuqz13CRFarU > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/32SVfcvusEckT3s4I3mXEU > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > > > > ======= > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= ======= Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18330) http://www.pctools.com/ =======
It is important to understand the history of why things are the way they are. It isn't about today. Prior to 1970 most people burned their dry garbage. That is why you see all those brick barbeque looking things in peoples back yards. The Clean Air Act was implemented abd backyard burning was banned. A lot of the ordinances actually come from that period and were about people stopping burning garbage in their back yards. Carol Becker Cooper On Sep 15, 2011 4:18 PM, "Kartoons/Pete&Dian" <email obscured>> wrote: > And if someone were physically disabled in an obvious way, in a wheelchair, > would you just mow them down because you were "enjoying" driving your car so > much it was such a bother to take your foot off the accelerator and turn the
> wheel to avoid hitting them? People with breathing and immune disabilities > are seriously injured by "recreational" fires. > > Pete Wagner > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Mork" <email obscured>> > To: <> > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:45 PM > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > > >> My thought: If the laws allowed it, would we pollute each other's drinking >> water? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing no. How is it different to pollute >> something like the atmosphere we share? We are great individualists, but >> it does lead to a lot of suffering by different people in different ways. >> Yet, we can't stop being solipsistic. >> >> Jim Mork >> Cooper >> http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary) >> Jim Mork >> Cooper, Minneapolis >> About Jim Mork: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7DauDItXmI19OGtd6usQGS >> >> View full topic, share on Facebook and more: >> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1c1CbVDYGT7gho14zMokra >> >> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? >> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to >> comment publicly. >> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in >> subject. >> >> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: >> http://OnlineGroups.Net >> >> >> >> >> ======= >> Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. >> (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) >> http://www.pctools.com/ >> ======= > > > > > > ======= > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= > > Pete Wagner > Seward, Minneapolis > About Pete Wagner: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/6exa5qd7mHNfNv31e9legp > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5EaWCDocLkVAZEjdhWoFOE > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
I have been reading this thread with interest. I have heard complaints about wood burning and recreational fires since first being elected to the City Council in 2005 and this is a topic I have done some research about. I have enjoyed wood fires all my life and I want the air we breath to be safer and cleaner. My understand is that the Minneapolis City government banned recreational fires in the past and then reversed that decision before I was elected. The last time the ordinance was amended was in 2003. The rules we have now appear to be focused on fire safety and are pretty consistent with what other cities are doing, although a more thorough study of what other mid- to large-sized cities do has not been conducted recently as far as I know. There does seem to be a difference in most people's minds between indoor fire places and outdoor yard fires, although air quality studies often don't distinguish between the two. The health experts also indicate that there is a difference between the types of stoves or furnaces as well as the material burned. Certain wood stoves and furnaces burn cleaner that others. It is clear to me that people have strong feelings about this on both sides of the issue. Some people, depending perhaps on their health and on the frequency of the recreational fires near their homes, consider recreational fires to be a major health issue and something that dramatically affects their quality of life and ability to enjoy their homes. There is an easy to read article (Health Effects of Wood Smoke Exposure) about this in this 2009 newsletter from the state health department (pages 5 and 6). www.health.state.mn.us/asthma/documents/bs0309.pdf At this point I am convinced that there is room for improvement in our approach. I am not sure if the problem is with the ordinance or with its enforcement, or with both. I am slowly moving to a position that says both could be improved. The ordinance may need to be amended in some ways, perhaps calling out air quality a little more clearly and adding some regulations or restrictions related to it. Currently, the ordinance says that recreational fires shall not be conducted if prevailing wind conditions exceed ten m.p.h. I believe it might make sense to also limit them during particularly dry periods, or during times when air quality is especially bad. Examining some kinds of additional time restrictions may also be in order. For those with asthma, emphysema, or other breathing difficulties, it seems unreasonable that they should have to endure wood fires burning next door most hours of most days. Still, most of the complaints we hear about are about fires that violate some portion of the City's existing recreational fire ordinance. This tells me that some of the problem is in compliance with the current ordinance and could be addressed with improved public education about the issue and better enforcement. Last spring we were able to include a mailing about this with our water bills. You can see the insert here: http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/council/2010-meetings/20100514/Docs/RecreationalFires_INSERT.pdf This issue came up recently for a brief discussion at a recent Council Committee when we were reviewing our air quality sustainability indicator. In the months ahead I will be talking to colleagues, community members, and staff from both the Health and Regulatory as well as Fire department. I think that it would also be very helpful if the appropriate committees of our neighborhood organizations and our citywide Environmental and Public Health Advisory Committees would also be take the time review and weigh in on the issue. I am open to looking at possible changes both to the ordinance and to how we enforce it. It is clear to me that we, as a city, don't have a clear consensus about how to handle this issue. Perhaps, by sharing accurate, credible information and keeping the conversation going, we can find one. The conversation here may be one way to help do that. Thank you all so much for taking the time to write and read and care about our city. Cam Gordon Minneapolis City Council Member, Second Ward 673-2202, 296-0579 <email obscured> http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/council/ward2/ http://secondward.blogspot.com/
________________________________ From: <email obscured> on behalf of Kartoons/Pete&Dian Sent: Fri 9/16/2011 4:50 PM To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality Thank you, Jeanne. This is very useful and interesting. And as I read the arguments from the pyro-libertarians who want no controls on "recreational" fires, I keep being amazed at the line of "reasoning" that "it's already so bad, why not make it worse." Pete Wagner ----- Original Message ----- From: "N. Jeanne Burns" <email obscured>> To: <> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > Apparently, sometime in the 1970s, Minneapolis put in restrictions on > fireplaces in construction and renovation. If you install a fireplace, you > have to either install a wood stove with a catalytic converter, or install > a catalytic converter to burn off almost all the particulates out of the > wood smoke. > > Also, your chimney had to be above a certain height not only to prevent > fire but also to put the smoke up high enough so to get more easily blown > away and have the particulates more dispersed. > > This was out of a concern for the amount of pollution wood smoke caused > and the lower air quality caused by the concentration of fire burning > devices. > > All of the existing rules about recreational backyard fires are about fire > safety. Unfortunately, when you light a backyard fire when there are very > low or no winds, as per the law, you're lighting a fire when air quality > is likely to be moderate and then made worse by the number of backyard > fire pits there are. > > Just the other night I was biking home and hit three blocks of dense smoke > south of 38th St on 41st Ave. It was a night with low or no winds. And a > weekend night. I couldn't see a backyard fire, but something was causing > it. > > I'd love the city take up this public health issues as an educational > campaign. Much the way green living and biking has spread, perhaps we can > spread the news about this issue. And tell people that being moderate in > the number and size of fires, we can avoid any kind of permitting process > or even consider a ban. We could develop guidelines (about the number of > logs, for instance) for a two or three hour party. And educate folks about > air quality. > > I started a facebook page that just talks about air quality so people can > be aware of that. LIKE it and get one daily update about air quality in > Minneapolis, and the occasional environmental update about air quality. > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/Air-Quality-Minneapolis/272590206103269 > > Jeanne > > > N. Jeanne Burns > Hiawatha, Longfellow, Minneapolis > About N. Jeanne Burns: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7le9iGbvGviuqz13CRFarU > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/32SVfcvusEckT3s4I3mXEU > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net <http://onlinegroups.net/> > > > > > ======= > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= ======= Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18330) http://www.pctools.com/ ======= Pete Wagner Seward, Minneapolis About Pete Wagner: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/6exa5qd7mHNfNv31e9legp View full topic, share on Facebook and more: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2dXEb9mO3kmvrKsydugXin Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net <http://onlinegroups.net/>
Thank you Cam,
What you lay out is a balanced and fair approach. That is all
I require. There has to be ways we can make the back yard fires less of a
problem for people without onerous restrictions or an out and out ban. I
mentioned in the beginning, our first step should be to enforce the laws on
the books. Common sense should be our guide.
P.S. Thank you neighbors for coming to see us at our yard sale today. We
will be open again tomorrow: 10am to 5pm 3223 36th Ave S.
-- Lee 李 Love in Longfellow,Minneapolis http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/ "Ta tIr na n-óg ar chul an tI—tIr dlainn trina chéile"—that is, "The land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent within itself." -- John O'Donohue
You know, Cam, when Jesse The Body was in office, they stopped inspecting vehicles because they thought they had done such a good job on emissions. But I've driven in the neighborhood many times behind vehicles that are way out of tune. We followed a truck down Hiawatha that was filling the air with pitch black smoke. Couldnt seem to find a way around it. Reality is that we have multiple existing issues with air polluters. People have to realize that they can maybe push back on one, but the job will be far from done even with success on that front. I'm very happy that Metro Transit has begun running hybrid buses since diesel buses used to be a big offender. And the trains really help, too. But our air is under attack on many fronts. Sometimes I think I should pack a mask to put on at any moment. Jim Mork Cooper http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary)
Cam, Thank you for responding so thoughtfully. I really appreciate your presence and that of Gary Schiff on the City Council. You two are the most closely aligned to my values. I am in the middle of writing a letter to my city council person about this very topic. The discussion has helped me be clearer about what I'm asking for, which is what you suggest. Restrictions based on air quality. Everyone else, I am also writing to tell people to STOP EMAILING me to suggest that what I'm experiencing is the Boundary Waters smoke. It is not. I do not experience my breathing problems in the middle of the day or even on most weeknights. If the problem were the BWCAW fire, I would experience then too. The smoke is caused recreational fires at night and on the weekends, and for some reason concentrated in my neighborhood. But thanks for caring.
Jeanne
I think indeed this may be a very neighborhood-specific thing. I live in the Hiawatha neighborhood and I smell wood fire a lot, and it caught me by surprise when I moved here five years ago. I absolutely love to sit around a fire and I love the smell of wood smoke. Not so much in my house, though. I've closed all the windows on fine autumn nights because I don't want to go to work in the morning smelling like a campfire. Seriously. It can get pretty bad. (Full disclosure: The close the windows thing has only happened twice in the five years I've lived here. Still, I smell wood fires at least 2-3 nights a week.) So. Not Boundary Waters. Much more local.
Hi, I am new to the board, but somewhat frustrated at this point. I have been seeing the 'conversation' about the backyard fires and have decided to say something. If anyone here has nNOT gotten into a car or bus to work, purchased items from overseas that are cheaper and do not have regulations on worker safety or pollution controls, eaten food produced on fields fertilized and maintained by artificial herbicides and pesticides and maintained artificial, non-native green lawn, please cast the first stone. These conversations i've been reading here are "casting stones" at our neighbors, yet I am wondering how innocent we all truly are at keeping our own pollutions at bay. Instead of seeing more analogies and other thinly disguised contempt, I would LOVE to see my in-box filled with solutions and compromises and at the least, some constructive dialog. Thanks for posting my comment and thanks for taking the time to read it. Belinda E. Lawrence
On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Kartoons/Pete&Dian <email obscured>>wrote: > And if someone were physically disabled in an obvious way, in a wheelchair, > would you just mow them down because you were "enjoying" driving your car > so > much it was such a bother to take your foot off the accelerator and turn > the > wheel to avoid hitting them? People with breathing and immune disabilities > are seriously injured by "recreational" fires. > > Pete Wagner > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Mork" <email obscured>> > To: <> > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:45 PM > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > > > > My thought: If the laws allowed it, would we pollute each other's > drinking > > water? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing no. How is it different to > pollute > > something like the atmosphere we share? We are great individualists, but > > it does lead to a lot of suffering by different people in different ways. > > Yet, we can't stop being solipsistic. > > > > Jim Mork > > Cooper > > http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary) > > Jim Mork > > Cooper, Minneapolis > > About Jim Mork: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7DauDItXmI19OGtd6usQGS > > > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1c1CbVDYGT7gho14zMokra > > > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > > comment publicly. > > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > > subject. > > > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > > > > > > > > > ======= > > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) > > http://www.pctools.com/ > > ======= > > > > > > ======= > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= > > Pete Wagner > Seward, Minneapolis > About Pete Wagner: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/6exa5qd7mHNfNv31e9legp > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5EaWCDocLkVAZEjdhWoFOE > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net >
Thank you for you email, Belinda. I value this list as a community building forum. Let's try to keep our judgments and contempt at bay, and maintain this as a positive space for neighborly discussion. Tanya Pfeffer Howe neighborhood.
On Sep 18, 2011, at 8:06 AM, Belinda Lawrence <email obscured>> wrote: > Hi, > I am new to the board, but somewhat frustrated at this point. I have been > seeing the 'conversation' about the backyard fires and have decided to say > something. > > If anyone here has nNOT gotten into a car or bus to work, purchased items > from overseas that are cheaper and do not have regulations on worker safety > or pollution controls, eaten food produced on fields fertilized and > maintained by artificial herbicides and pesticides and maintained > artificial, non-native green lawn, please cast the first stone. > > These conversations i've been reading here are "casting stones" at our > neighbors, yet I am wondering how innocent we all truly are at keeping our > own pollutions at bay. Instead of seeing more analogies and other thinly > disguised contempt, I would LOVE to see my in-box filled with solutions and > compromises and at the least, some constructive dialog. > > Thanks for posting my comment and thanks for taking the time to read it. > > Belinda E. Lawrence > > > On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Kartoons/Pete&Dian <email obscured>>wrote: > >> And if someone were physically disabled in an obvious way, in a wheelchair, >> would you just mow them down because you were "enjoying" driving your car >> so >> much it was such a bother to take your foot off the accelerator and turn >> the >> wheel to avoid hitting them? People with breathing and immune disabilities >> are seriously injured by "recreational" fires. >> >> Pete Wagner >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jim Mork" <email obscured>> >> To: <> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:45 PM >> Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality >> >> >>> My thought: If the laws allowed it, would we pollute each other's >> drinking >>> water? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing no. How is it different to >> pollute >>> something like the atmosphere we share? We are great individualists, but >>> it does lead to a lot of suffering by different people in different ways. >>> Yet, we can't stop being solipsistic. >>> >>> Jim Mork >>> Cooper >>> http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary) >>> Jim Mork >>> Cooper, Minneapolis >>> About Jim Mork: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7DauDItXmI19OGtd6usQGS >>> >>> View full topic, share on Facebook and more: >>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1c1CbVDYGT7gho14zMokra >>> >>> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? >>> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 >>> >>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to >>> comment publicly. >>> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in >>> subject. >>> >>> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow >>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: >>> http://OnlineGroups.Net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ======= >>> Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. >>> (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) >>> http://www.pctools.com/ >>> ======= >> >> >> >> >> >> ======= >> Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. >> (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18320) >> http://www.pctools.com/ >> ======= >> >> Pete Wagner >> Seward, Minneapolis >> About Pete Wagner: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/6exa5qd7mHNfNv31e9legp >> >> View full topic, share on Facebook and more: >> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5EaWCDocLkVAZEjdhWoFOE >> >> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? >> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to >> comment publicly. >> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in >> subject. >> >> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: >> http://OnlineGroups.Net >> > > Belinda Lawrence > Longfellow > About belinda lawrence: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/zpHcZDcHoZQAy1PXWWJxq > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6lMxnyXL2vRsOjLXGkXeoL > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
This is the second newcomer who has objected to candid discussion as though somehow e-democracy should have no controversy at all. Come on, we live in America, not Syria. Maybe it make sense to say a civil tone is necessary, but at the same time, we have to be able to give our honest opinions. I won't quit because someone objects to the tone, but I sure wish people would accept that differences of opinion don't make the list useless. I'm glad that people are being real, not sugar-coating thorny issues. By way, the fact that I've bought something from China is not causing those who live in my immediate vicinity to have respiratory problems. These are not comparable issues. Jim Mork Cooper http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary)
If we burned trash or wood sprayed withe pesticides, then it could conceivable go into the air. I would bet the rain washes most of this gunk off. The ban on painted or treated would be for the toxins not to go into the air. If you have concerns about controversy please read the post by the councilman a few quotes back. He plans to look into enforcement and the rules to see if they need adjustment. Myself it makes sense to do the math for yard size. I know all in my area arent wide enough to place a fire in the middle of the yard. If there isnt anything combustable in a neighbors yard, most could in their back yard. I would guess the losts are 120 or 140. so it would depend on the garage and house location and size. This is a city. As far as this being controversial, any forums on a site called e democracy arent for recipe sharing, although they could be. I think this is an opportunity to help our city become better. Sincerely, Andrea > From: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > To: <email obscured> > Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 16:06:02 +1200 > > This is the second newcomer who has objected to candid discussion as though somehow e-democracy should have no controversy at all. Come on, we live in America, not Syria. Maybe it make sense to say a civil tone is necessary, but at the same time, we have to be able to give our honest opinions. I won't quit because someone objects to the tone, but I sure wish people would accept that differences of opinion don't make the list useless. I'm glad that people are being real, not sugar-coating thorny issues. By way, the fact that I've bought something from China is not causing those who live in my immediate vicinity to have respiratory problems. These are not comparable issues.
> > Jim Mork > Cooper > http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary) > > > Jim Mork > Cooper, Minneapolis > About Jim Mork: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7DauDItXmI19OGtd6usQGS > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5O2bmeueeMEz15geJzOyG > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
Exchanging views with almost 450 people in this large online community gathering means we have 450 varying expectations. Some tips: 1. The best way to get the forum to deliver you more of what you value is to do what you what you want to see. We are the ones we are waiting for - producers not just consumers of content. So, start a new topic, find a solution, share some new information, etc. 2. We do have civility rules - http://e-democracy.org/rules - no name calling, no personal attacks, no one on one arguments. We also have local scope rules (which we received when this topic attracted general posts from folks well outside the neighborhood). However, the rules are enforced by filing a complaint on a specific post to the Forum Manager: mpls-longfellow-fm (at) e-democracy.org On forum individual member attempts at enforcement are not allowed by the rules because they quickly devolve and drive more people away than the potential infractions themselves. 3. Our rules do not stop folks from expressing unpopular views nor do they prevent folks from seeming uncompassionate or unfriendly. The goal of this forum is "neighborly" exchange and the vast majority here will keep it that way. Anyway, back to the Longfellow-specific exchange on recreational fires. Oh, on that note Cam, thank you for the in-depth reply. It was an outstanding example how a thoughtful yet passionate exchange among neighbors can matter in the real world of local democracy. Steven Clift Temp Forum Manager
I have severe asthma and allergies. I'm on 4 daily meds, have a $1k+ air purifier, and have been hospitalized for my asthma before. I have never had issues with bonfires, but when I lived on 36th and Stevens Ave, in front of 35W, it was absolute HELL on my lungs. The cars emitted so many toxic particles into the air that I wouldn't be surprised if they find much higher rates of cancer and respiratory disease near highways. It was so bad for me that I had to move. Now I wonder about the ADM mill on 38th and Hiawatha that pumps grain particles into the air 24/7. I would rather see Cam focus on lower-hanging fruit where we can majorly clean the air than nitpicking relatively minor sources in the grand scheme of things. Industry and auto pollution are everywhere, constant, and often concentrated. And VOCs in almost all office buildings cause endocrine-disruption and several are carcinogenic. Once we address those I think we can justify going after grills, outdoor smoking, and fireplaces. On Sep 19, 2011 12:12 AM, "andrea schaerf" <email obscured>> wrote: > > If we burned trash or wood sprayed withe pesticides, then it could conceivable go into the air. I would bet the rain washes most of this gunk off. The ban on painted or treated would be for the toxins not to go into the air. If you have concerns about controversy please read the post by the councilman a few quotes back. He plans to look into enforcement and the rules to see if they need adjustment. Myself it makes sense to do the math for yard size. I know all in my area arent wide enough to place a fire in the middle of the yard. If there isnt anything combustable in a neighbors yard, most could in their back yard. I would guess the losts are 120 or 140. so it would depend on the garage and house location and size. This is a city. As far as this being controversial, any forums on a site called e democracy arent for recipe sharing, although they could be. I think this is an opportunity to help our city become better.
> > Sincerely, > > > Andrea > > > From: <email obscured> >> Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality >> To: <email obscured> >> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 16:06:02 +1200 >> >> This is the second newcomer who has objected to candid discussion as though somehow e-democracy should have no controversy at all. Come on, we live in America, not Syria. Maybe it make sense to say a civil tone is necessary, but at the same time, we have to be able to give our honest opinions. I won't quit because someone objects to the tone, but I sure wish people would accept that differences of opinion don't make the list useless. I'm glad that people are being real, not sugar-coating thorny issues. By way, the fact that I've bought something from China is not causing those who live in my immediate vicinity to have respiratory problems. These are not comparable issues. >> >> Jim Mork >> Cooper >> http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary) >> >> >> Jim Mork >> Cooper, Minneapolis >> About Jim Mork: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7DauDItXmI19OGtd6usQGS >> >> View full topic, share on Facebook and more: >> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5O2bmeueeMEz15geJzOyG >> >> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? >> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. >> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. >> >> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net > > andrea schaerf > longfellow, minneapolis > About andrea schaerf: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/andreaschaerf > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1xjB4LR2CR0YJW6NgG0OD2 > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
There has been an EPA Superfund site in our neighborhoods due to high levels of arsenic in the soil. I spoke with an EPA official trying to find out the safety of my soil. My soil was not high enough to remove all the top soil. The fellow did tell me that if I grew vegetables, I should have raised beds. He said all the years of leaded gas use alone would make the soil contaminated. he said there would also be other contaminates.Raised vegetable beds?? I dont see many in my area. The fires are something that can be looked at immediately while the corporate pollution will takes years if ever to stop. If a neighbors fire went directly into your windows, youd have to seal your house or talk with your neighbors. There may be ways to make it easier to be safe. Sincerely, Andrea > Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 09:36:05 -0500
> Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > From: <email obscured> > To: <email obscured> > > I have severe asthma and allergies. I'm on 4 daily meds, have a $1k+ air > purifier, and have been hospitalized for my asthma before. I have never had > issues with bonfires, but when I lived on 36th and Stevens Ave, in front of > 35W, it was absolute HELL on my lungs. The cars emitted so many toxic > particles into the air that I wouldn't be surprised if they find much higher > rates of cancer and respiratory disease near highways. It was so bad for me > that I had to move. Now I wonder about the ADM mill on 38th and Hiawatha > that pumps grain particles into the air 24/7. I would rather see Cam focus > on lower-hanging fruit where we can majorly clean the air than nitpicking > relatively minor sources in the grand scheme of things. Industry and auto > pollution are everywhere, constant, and often concentrated. And VOCs in > almost all office buildings cause endocrine-disruption and several are > carcinogenic. Once we address those I think we can justify going after > grills, outdoor smoking, and fireplaces. > On Sep 19, 2011 12:12 AM, "andrea schaerf" <email obscured>> wrote: > > > > If we burned trash or wood sprayed withe pesticides, then it could > conceivable go into the air. I would bet the rain washes most of this gunk > off. The ban on painted or treated would be for the toxins not to go into > the air. If you have concerns about controversy please read the post by the > councilman a few quotes back. He plans to look into enforcement and the > rules to see if they need adjustment. Myself it makes sense to do the math > for yard size. I know all in my area arent wide enough to place a fire in > the middle of the yard. If there isnt anything combustable in a neighbors > yard, most could in their back yard. I would guess the losts are 120 or 140. > so it would depend on the garage and house location and size. This is a > city. As far as this being controversial, any forums on a site called e > democracy arent for recipe sharing, although they could be. I think this is > an opportunity to help our city become better. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Andrea > > > > > From: <email obscured> > >> Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > >> To: <email obscured> > >> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 16:06:02 +1200 > >> > >> This is the second newcomer who has objected to candid discussion as > though somehow e-democracy should have no controversy at all. Come on, we > live in America, not Syria. Maybe it make sense to say a civil tone is > necessary, but at the same time, we have to be able to give our honest > opinions. I won't quit because someone objects to the tone, but I sure wish > people would accept that differences of opinion don't make the list useless. > I'm glad that people are being real, not sugar-coating thorny issues. By > way, the fact that I've bought something from China is not causing those who > live in my immediate vicinity to have respiratory problems. These are not > comparable issues. > >> > >> Jim Mork > >> Cooper > >> http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary) > >> > >> > >> Jim Mork > >> Cooper, Minneapolis > >> About Jim Mork: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7DauDItXmI19OGtd6usQGS > >> > >> View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > >> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5O2bmeueeMEz15geJzOyG > >> > >> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > >> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > >> > >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >> To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > >> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > >> > >> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > > > andrea schaerf > > longfellow, minneapolis > > About andrea schaerf: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/andreaschaerf > > > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1xjB4LR2CR0YJW6NgG0OD2 > > > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > Andrew Johnson > Howe, Minneapolis > About Andrew Johnson: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1LFMSxWBpXvvBrEFBJ9VXa > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3uK0fpO3ahEkiVpN19rFsV > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: http://OnlineGroups.Net
Hi neighbors. I actually appreciate Belinda's message. I enjoy thoughtful dialogue and even debate, and e-democracy can facilitate that, but being part of a community is much more than repeatedly posting your same complaints on an internet message board. There are a few hundred people on this listserv but over 25,000 people in greater Longfellow. How can we expect significant change in our immediate neighborhood when a very small segment of the community are privy to our thoughts, musings, and complaints. Why not hold a block meeting to discuss the issue at hand? Or if your issue is with an immediate neighbor, just go have a conversation with them? Submit an article to the Longfellow Messenger. Attend Longfellow Community Council meetings, become a chair of one of the LCC committees, or propose a separate LCC taskforce to address your specific issue. Or run for city council (although I doubt you will go very far if your main platform is banning/legislating recreational backyard fires). Go on a hunger strike or chain yourself to something. DO SOMETHING rather than sit and stew in anger and frustration in front of your computer screen and feel the need to respond whenever somebody responds in a way that is not acceptable to you. On the subject at hand, I have no issues with backyard fires. I recognize the potential ill effects smoke can have on an individual's health, but people in this forum have listed numerous other things that can have a negative effect on some peoples' breathing. I personally am very allergic to horses, cows, goats, and sheep...thank god Minneapolis has banned citizens from owning hooved animals in the city, which is something St. Paul allows.
I think there's a difference between Belinda's request for a change in tone and previous such requests. Namely, she didn't say something equivalent to "everyone I consider politically incorrect, shut up or I'm leaving." I don't think asking for more civil dialogue and less name-calling is the same as asking that there be no disagreement or controversy, or telling everyone you disagree with that expressing their honest opinion is rude. It wouldn't hurt for those of us who aren't troubled by fire pits to take people seriously when they say that wood smoke is a major health problem for them. On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt for those who are sensitive to wood smoke to understand that most of the rest of us really don't have much idea what you're experiencing. (If using a fire pit is like running over someone in a wheelchair, as Pete said, then it's like running over someone in a wheelchair when you personally don't mind being run over, and maybe you even enjoy it a little, because it reminds you of all the times you got run over when you were growing up, and whenever someone complains about it, you think, "come on! Who doesn't like getting run over once in a while?", and only people in wheelchairs really mind getting run over all that much, so everyone else has a little trouble relating.)
Hi, I think the point is being missed here. I've interpreted that the tone of the last few emails were written in an effort to encourage civil discourse amongst neighbors. E-democracy is a great tool to share resources and concerns and hopefully build a supportive community. I think it's perfectly healthy to have difference of opinion and conflict, especially in a forum like this. Conflict can be very constructive if navigated in a respectful way. However, too often within these back and forth email volleys there is a tone to prove who's more right or who's opinions are more valid than others...there has even name calling. So, yes, be honest and don't sugar coat things, but before you hit 'send' please think about whether your email is building community or building divisions. Jim- Yes, we live in America. A country that provides us the freedom of choice. I appreciate what you're likely getting from this forum. But, please avoid judging others because of their choice to leave the forum for whatever their reason may be. Honestly, I've considered leaving mostly because of the many emails like the ones I've described above. In my opinion, those are doing nothing for my personal or neighborly betterment.
Thanks, Allison On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 11:06 PM, Jim Mork <email obscured>> wrote: > This is the second newcomer who has objected to candid discussion as though > somehow e-democracy should have no controversy at all. Come on, we live in > America, not Syria. Maybe it make sense to say a civil tone is necessary, > but at the same time, we have to be able to give our honest opinions. I > won't quit because someone objects to the tone, but I sure wish people would > accept that differences of opinion don't make the list useless. I'm glad > that people are being real, not sugar-coating thorny issues. By way, the > fact that I've bought something from China is not causing those who live in > my immediate vicinity to have respiratory problems. These are not > comparable issues. > > Jim Mork > Cooper > http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary) > > > Jim Mork > Cooper, Minneapolis > About Jim Mork: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7DauDItXmI19OGtd6usQGS > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5O2bmeueeMEz15geJzOyG > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > -- Allison Greenlee Assistant Director of Campus Programs Macalester College 651-696-6202
Belinda, We do, in fact, take serious care of the environment. We have solar panels on our home that very closely takes care of 100% of our electricity (we haven't had a bill since March), and we've reduced our electric load by taking actions that save electricity (because at night we're still consuming coal-fired electricity). We converted our hybrid to be a plug-in hybrid, increasing our effective gas mileage not only to 85 mpg and above, it's powered by solar energy. We recycle and compost so much, we put out "garbage" about once a month, in the smallest container that Minneapolis will allow. We ride the bus, bike and walk as much as we can. Just because I cannot change the whole economic system of food and goods manufacturing and delivery and can't cure the country's dependence on oil or coal-fired electricty does NOT mean I should not speak up about what I *can* change. At least we're having this conversation.
I'm happy for Andrew that he happens to somehow find that the "recreational" fires in his neighborhood are few enough, small enough, the right wind direction, whatever, that he doesn't have a problem with them. He's very lucky! Not so for all of us with breathing issues. Why "rather" focus on lower-hanging fruit just because it doesn't happen to affect you personally, when you can hear that it does affect others? And, I repeat, the data, the data, the data. Wood smoke is super-toxic. As for using pharmacuetical medications to mask symptoms or force the immune system to stop reacting to toxins in the environment, I shouldn't be expected to join your willingness to screw up your long-term health by choosing profit-motive-based Western medicine as my main option for dealing with pollution, anymore than I should be expected to stay locked up in my closed-up house all year wearing a 3M respirator mask 24 hours a day. Pete Wagner
----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Johnson" <email obscured>> To: <> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality >I have severe asthma and allergies. I'm on 4 daily meds, have a $1k+ air > purifier, and have been hospitalized for my asthma before. I have never > had > issues with bonfires, but when I lived on 36th and Stevens Ave, in front > of > 35W, it was absolute HELL on my lungs. The cars emitted so many toxic > particles into the air that I wouldn't be surprised if they find much > higher > rates of cancer and respiratory disease near highways. It was so bad for > me > that I had to move. Now I wonder about the ADM mill on 38th and Hiawatha > that pumps grain particles into the air 24/7. I would rather see Cam focus > on lower-hanging fruit where we can majorly clean the air than nitpicking > relatively minor sources in the grand scheme of things. Industry and auto > pollution are everywhere, constant, and often concentrated. And VOCs in > almost all office buildings cause endocrine-disruption and several are > carcinogenic. Once we address those I think we can justify going after > grills, outdoor smoking, and fireplaces. > On Sep 19, 2011 12:12 AM, "andrea schaerf" <email obscured>> wrote: >> >> If we burned trash or wood sprayed withe pesticides, then it could > conceivable go into the air. I would bet the rain washes most of this gunk > off. The ban on painted or treated would be for the toxins not to go into > the air. If you have concerns about controversy please read the post by > the > councilman a few quotes back. He plans to look into enforcement and the > rules to see if they need adjustment. Myself it makes sense to do the math > for yard size. I know all in my area arent wide enough to place a fire in > the middle of the yard. If there isnt anything combustable in a neighbors > yard, most could in their back yard. I would guess the losts are 120 or > 140. > so it would depend on the garage and house location and size. This is a > city. As far as this being controversial, any forums on a site called e > democracy arent for recipe sharing, although they could be. I think this > is > an opportunity to help our city become better. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Andrea >> >> > From: <email obscured> >>> Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality >>> To: <email obscured> >>> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 16:06:02 +1200 >>> >>> This is the second newcomer who has objected to candid discussion as > though somehow e-democracy should have no controversy at all. Come on, we > live in America, not Syria. Maybe it make sense to say a civil tone is > necessary, but at the same time, we have to be able to give our honest > opinions. I won't quit because someone objects to the tone, but I sure > wish > people would accept that differences of opinion don't make the list > useless. > I'm glad that people are being real, not sugar-coating thorny issues. By > way, the fact that I've bought something from China is not causing those > who > live in my immediate vicinity to have respiratory problems. These are not > comparable issues. >>> >>> Jim Mork >>> Cooper >>> http://cooper-lake.blogspot.com/ (Cooper-Lake Diary) >>> >>> >>> Jim Mork >>> Cooper, Minneapolis >>> About Jim Mork: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/7DauDItXmI19OGtd6usQGS >>> >>> View full topic, share on Facebook and more: >>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5O2bmeueeMEz15geJzOyG >>> >>> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? >>> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 >>> >>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. >>> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. >>> >>> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow >>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net >> >> andrea schaerf >> longfellow, minneapolis >> About andrea schaerf: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/andreaschaerf >> >> View full topic, share on Facebook and more: >> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1xjB4LR2CR0YJW6NgG0OD2 >> >> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? >> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. >> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. >> >> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > Andrew Johnson > Howe, Minneapolis > About Andrew Johnson: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1LFMSxWBpXvvBrEFBJ9VXa > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3uK0fpO3ahEkiVpN19rFsV > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > > > > ======= > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18330) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= ======= Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18340) http://www.pctools.com/ =======
Surprise, surprise... this thread has turned into people debating treatment
styles, by pushing extreme views no less.
Come on..."willingness to screw up your long-term health by
choosing profit-motive-based Western medicine" ?!?!?
If someone wants to take "profit-motive-based Western" medication to sooth
their pain, they shouldn't have to listen to that junk.
Spare me.
Disclaimer: before doing any judging (passed off as someone innocently giving
their opinion), I admit that I've dabbled in traditional ("profit-motive-based
Western") medications as well as herbal/holistic alternatives with mild success
in both areas.
okay, yeah. i have rolled my eyes while reading this thread more than with any other. i almost feel inclined to print off every email and burn it in a fire pit. including this one ;-) btw, that's a winky face. please do not freak out and take me too seriously. love, jenna scheetz howe neighborhood
On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Aaron Schilz <email obscured>> wrote:
> Surprise, surprise... this thread has turned into people debating treatment
> styles, by pushing extreme views no less.
>
> Come on..."willingness to screw up your long-term health by
> choosing profit-motive-based Western medicine" ?!?!?
>
> If someone wants to take "profit-motive-based Western" medication to sooth
> their pain, they shouldn't have to listen to that junk.
>
> Spare me.
>
> Disclaimer: before doing any judging (passed off as someone innocently
> giving their opinion), I admit that I've dabbled in traditional
> ("profit-motive-based Western") medications as well as herbal/holistic
> alternatives with mild success in both areas.
>
> Aaron Schilz
> Hiawatha, Minneapolis
> About Aaron Schilz: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1NTfBivzubFs3owaci2rLQ
>
> View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/1ccGnUqkrwIClRmljaQLpP
>
> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to
> comment publicly.
> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
> subject.
>
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
> http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
Hello, everyone, I am excited to be moving to Longfellow in about a month. I've previously moved my way through SE, then Uptown, then NE. In excitement at the coming move, I figured I'd stroll over to this Longfellow party, and this thread makes me sad. Not "you're wrong" sad. Just sad. One of the perks of my new place, I thought, was a modestly sized fire pit in the back yard. I envisioned fun nights snuggling into the new neighborhood. Now, I question if that's unneighborly. My sister lives out in Coon Rapids, and I always admire how their neighborhood gets together around fires. It really seems to create community for them. I will have a fire or two this year, but it's still your neighborhood, not mine, and I expect to honor the wishes of my immediate neighbors. I hope that in doing so I will not be unneighborly...as that is pretty much the opposite of what I'd like to use a fire to foster.
Well, if you're hoping that the "few" of us who are having our lives ruined by these fires will suddenly be able to say, "Oh, heck, go ahead, have 'em," we just can't. A huge majority may say "no problem," but the question is whether you are sensitive to the minority who can't take the smoke, have to close up our homes, buy expensive special storm windows, buy and run expensive air cleaners,... when all it would take to make it possible for us to have a minimally normal existence would be to have neighbors realize that the city is too densely populated to do fires. It would be fun and relaxing to get together and shoot our rifles and pistols in our backyards, too, and oh so reminiscent of the good old days Up North or out on the farm. But we don't do it because there are too many people who live too close to one another. Breathing isn't optional, it's a necessity. Thank you for your consideration. Pete Wagner
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Wink" <email obscured>> To: <> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [LFW] Fire Pits and Smoke and Air Quality > Hello, everyone, > > I am excited to be moving to Longfellow in about a month. I've previously > moved my way through SE, then Uptown, then NE. In excitement at the coming > move, I figured I'd stroll over to this Longfellow party, and this thread > makes me sad. Not "you're wrong" sad. Just sad. One of the perks of my new > place, I thought, was a modestly sized fire pit in the back yard. I > envisioned fun nights snuggling into the new neighborhood. Now, I question > if that's unneighborly. My sister lives out in Coon Rapids, and I always > admire how their neighborhood gets together around fires. It really seems > to create community for them. I will have a fire or two this year, but > it's still your neighborhood, not mine, and I expect to honor the wishes > of my immediate neighbors. I hope that in doing so I will not be > unneighborly...as that is pretty much the opposite of what I'd like to use > a fire to foster. > > David Wink > > About Dave Wink: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1zJNOQgJhBoH3K1Nue2efO > > View full topic, share on Facebook and more: > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2iT1JxAaRKtJhxDSpfl4nu > > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you? > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299 > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To post: <email obscured> or "Reply-to-All" to > comment publicly. > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in > subject. > > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls-longfellow > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks: > http://OnlineGroups.Net > > > > > ======= > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18340) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= ======= Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18340) http://www.pctools.com/ =======
This has been an interesting and troublesome topic, because answers are elusive. I have to question what I think is hyperbole in the last post: "those of us who are having our lives ruined by fires..." Really? Ruined? I don't think so. If what is ruining your life is the discomfort by inhaling air that is, for you, unsafe, okay--but, given what you've well described as your environmental sensitivities, I have to question whether the absence of backyard fires would suddenly make your life not ruined. Second, why is "few" in quotation marks? How many people are, in fact, adversely affected? Please don't say "all of us," because most of us, even if it's not healthy, don't have our quality of life changed. I have been wondering this for a while, given this discussion--for how many people is this an issue, and what is the tipping point? If having such fires harms even one person, should they be banned? If that's not enough, then what is? My son goes to a college that is co-ed by room. There are two bathrooms on each floor. They vote on what to do--if even one woman objects to co-ed bathrooms, then one is a women's room. Should we do the same with backyard fires? The comparison of backyard fires with mindless shooting of guns does little to advance the discussion, Pete. It is what the philosophers call an argument "ad absurdem," in which you portray your opponent's position in an extreme and unfair way. I know that you feel strongly about this issue, as your many posts have made clear. And for you there is no middle ground--any fire in the city, no matter where it is, is unacceptable to you, for legitimate reasons of health. What is troubling to me about this is what I'll call just the opposite of majority rule: the tyranny of the minority. I'm not yet convinced that all neighborhood fires should be banned because of one, or, at least, a couple of voices. I do have a fire pit (more of a fire basket) in my garage. It is seldom used, although I also have a fireplace in the house, which gets used more. I'm not sure that the latter is any better, to be honest. I can't help but think that there is some compromise, some middle ground. Where I live, in Cooper, just north of Lake Street, I have only noticed an evening or two in the last decade where there was enough odor and smoke to catch my attention. Perhaps it's only because I suffer no maladies--but it may also be a product of prevailing winds and topography. I'm wondering if you either have pyromaniacs for neighbors or buildings that prevent the wind from disappating the smoke. And as for Dave Wink, who shows some sensitivity of his own to the issues raised here, I say, talk to your neighbors. Find out who they are, and if a fire will bother them. Figure out the winds in your backyard, and, if you do have a fire, keep it small. But don't despair just yet. However this proceeds, it's a pretty neat neighborhood.
Does anyone have any pertinent information left that hasn't been shared? Anything left unsaid (at least once or more times)? Anyone new in Longfellow not have their say yet? Otherwise, it is time to move on to other neighborhood topics. Unless you have new information or have not posted, this topic is now closed on this forum. Again, the city-wide forum is still open for you: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4IHU3nk1AoXWjSiPBsil2J If anyone here launches an (online) group dedicated to advocating for changes or opposing changes in the city ordinance or enforcement, feel free to announce it here. If the issue gets taken up by the City Council, we will be sure to link this discussion to the appropriate topic on the city-wide forum: http://e-democracy.org/mpls Thanks, Steven Clift Temp Forum Manager
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