Charter: What if the recount affirm the vote?

There is a likelihood that the recount will affirm in favor of YES for the Home
Rule Charter, AKA "Charter' and 'City'
If the recount reverse the YES, then we're a TOWN.

For argument's sake I'm imagining what we can have for our new CITY
government...
At the moment, the new City Government is an empty shell that we will be
populated, first by the November election, then by various appointments.
We have this opportunity to make the new City Government something positive. We
will have some pro-City folks who will be very happy and we will have other
pro-City folks who will be anything but happy. Getting down to business, we
really need to give some serious, soul-searching thoughts on whom we want to be
representing us inhabitants of Framingham. We can either go with the
traditional types folks or we can go, as one may say, do something that is
completely outside of the box. We, the people, have the choice to pick any of
the members of the former Charter Commission for some powerful positions. We
also have the right to pick people who think and act like us instead of the
same old same old same old when it comes to electing people to represent us
inhabitants of Framingham...

DISCLOSURE: As many of you may be aware of...
*I campaigned against the Home Rule Charter question.
*I collected signatures on the recount petition. This is how I put my money on
where my mouth is on this matter.

One last thing: We can either lament on how terrible this City thing is... and
get nowhere,
OR,
We can move forward and use this change as a golden opportunity to make our new
City government a government that actually represent the inhabitants of
Framingham. I choose this choice.

William LaBarge

Rest of post

WillyWhy don't we wait until recount is completed before negative writings
about charter commission membersWho may or not be a candidate. And by the way
they are people just like you.

Jim Divver

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

Rest of post

-------- Original message --------From: William LaBarge
<<email obscured>> Date: 4/10/17 9:15 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Framingham
Government e-democracy Forum <framgov@forums.e-democracy.org> Subject:
[FramGov] Charter: What if the recount affirm the vote?
There is a likelihood that the recount will affirm in favor of YES for the Home
Rule Charter, AKA "Charter' and 'City'
If the recount reverse the YES, then we're a TOWN.

For argument's sake I'm imagining what we can have for our new CITY
government...
At the moment, the new City Government is an empty shell that we will be
populated, first by the November election, then by various appointments.
We have this opportunity to make the new City Government something positive. We
will have some pro-City folks who will be very happy and we will have other
pro-City folks who will be anything but happy. Getting down to business, we
really need to give some serious, soul-searching thoughts on whom we want to be
representing us inhabitants of Framingham. We can either go with the
traditional types folks or we can go, as one may say, do something that is
completely outside of the box. We, the people, have the choice to pick any of
the members of the former Charter Commission for some powerful positions. We
also have the right to pick people who think and act like us instead of the
same old same old same old when it comes to electing people to represent us
inhabitants of Framingham...

DISCLOSURE: As many of you may be aware of...
*I campaigned against the Home Rule Charter question.
*I collected signatures on the recount petition. This is how I put my money on
where my mouth is on this matter.

One last thing: We can either lament on how terrible this City thing is... and
get nowhere,
OR,
We can move forward and use this change as a golden opportunity to make our new
City government a government that actually represent the inhabitants of
Framingham. I choose this choice.

William LaBarge

William LaBarge
Precinct 16, Framingham
About/contact William LaBarge: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/williamlabarge

Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.

------------------------
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Just like Congressman John Lewis does not see Donald trump as a legitimate
president I do not and will not see the City proposal turning Framingham's 317
year old govt from Town to city as legitimate. Why? Very simple. The money and
the process. Before the candidates for the charter commission were ever voted
on I saw a process that in my opinion was not legitimate. We are left now with
what ever the outcome of the recount is. If the City proposal wins after the
recount I will hope the people of Framingham are served and governed in the
interests of the common good.
Lloyd Kaye
Framingham

Get it out lloyd. get it all out. we know you love this town.

blame it on me. my wife told me that if i was elected to town meeting, town
meeting wouldn't last one year. apparently she was right on schedule.
remember my phone ringing during tm.? my screwy town meeting reports.? it was
all part of the plan. I took down town meeting. no, it wasn't the commission.
just blame it on me.

walter siggins pct 13 tmm....one and done.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 12:51 AM, Lloyd Kaye
<<email obscured>> wrote:

Just like Congressman John Lewis does not see Donald trump as a legitimate
president I do not and will not see the City proposal turning Framingham's 317
year old govt from Town to city as legitimate. Why? Very simple. The money and
the process. Before the candidates for the charter commission were ever voted
on I saw a process that in my opinion was not legitimate. We are left now with
what ever the outcome of the recount is. If the City proposal wins after the
recount I will hope the people of Framingham are served and governed in the
interests of the common good.
Lloyd Kaye
Framingham

Lloyd Kaye
framingham
About/contact Lloyd Kaye: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/lloydkaye

Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.

Rest of post

Walter is flush with corporate cash donations!! I've seen it. Home Depot and
Lowes!! Even Robinson's and Monnick!! Their all in on it!!! The hardware lobby
brought this on and Walter is their Manchurian Candidate!!

Rich Shapiro

Sent from my iPhone

Rest of post

If it is upheld, it really makes little difference if YOU see it as legitimate
or not. I suppose you could move to a more legitimate Town if you
want...something John Lewis doesn't have the option to do

Jim Divver

Rest of post

From: Jim Divver

Willy:
Why don't we wait until recount is completed before negative writings about
charter commission members.
Who may or not be a candidate. And by the way they are people just like you.

MY RESPONSE

May 1 is coming up pretty fast and so is July 1. The reason I mention that is
that May 1 is when one may take out nomination papers and July 1 is when one
has to get the nomination papers in. The Recount does not delay these dates as
much as one day, assuming the Recount affirm the YES being the winner. Just to
remind you; Jul 1 is 61 days after May 1, and May 1 is 20 days from now. Time
goes by fast when you're having so much fun.

If you want some members of the Charter Commission to be elected Mayor or some
other political office, you're welcome to endorse and even vote for that
person. I also want to remind you that City election is not some private club
which are reserved only to the professional politicians, but open to the
inhabitants of Framingham.

My opening post was to encourage others to consider entering the fray with the
new City Government instead of letting the professionals have exclusive to the
City Government.

In my humble opinion, I believe the best Mayor will be someone who really do
not want the job but do it, perhaps grudgingly, because it needs be done for
the benefit of this community.

Again, what if the Recount affirm YES for the Home Rule Charter? Answer: life
moves on as if the Recount did not happen, other than establish a rock-hard
testament that the election result has been verified to be true. With that
said, we have to start thinking about whom we want to be representing the
inhabitants or are we just simply willing to let others be in charge of things
which we can gripe about later on?

Just give it plenty of thoughts on whom you want as our Mayor, our Councilors
in the each of our individual districts as well as our at-large Councilors, and
the School Committee Members in each of the 9 Districts.

On the other hand, if the Recount overturns the YES, then we continue as a
Town, case closed.

City or Town, I want the best for Framingham.

William LaBarge

i remember when someone asked.............what was the largest city that Trump
carried .............and Lloyd answered..........Moscow.

where is that fun Lloyd? i miss him.

walter siggins pt 13 tmm

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 9:32 AM, Jim Divver
<<email obscured>> wrote:

If it is upheld, it really makes little difference if YOU see it as legitimate
or not. I suppose you could move to a more legitimate Town if you
want...something John Lewis doesn't have the option to do

Jim Divver

Rest of post

Lloyd

Time to move on. You remember our brief chat at Stop & Shop when I
predicted a likely narrow win for the city supporters?

I acquired the 33-page absentee ballot report and there isn't a scope for
much change. Unless a voter voting in the Town Clerk's office (i.e. did not
mail in ) was some what intimidated by the presence of some one to vote
YES.
Or some one returned the ballot in time but the ballot was rejected due to
late return or the ballot is marked "Not Returned" . In either case - it
will most likely constitute disenfranchisement.

Well - there was a great opportunity to stop the train on its track when
Kevin Crotty moved to defund the charter commission - and if passed - there
could have been negotiations to bring back TM form of government on the
table and take the 18 month time line instead of the expedited route. The
CC blew their $15000 which they got by statue and asked for $50,000 more
from TM. They could have raised that money from elsewhere but chose to use
tax payer $$$. And by that time it was very clear in which direction the CC
was going - including the "strong mayor" provision. We know the history.

Then a group ran the lousiest and arrogant campaign that I witnessed in my
25+ years of political activism. They are pro-city (weak mayor) but asking
voters to vote NO to City. There is no mention of "City" in the ballot
question yet that group asked voters to vote NO to City - playing right
into the hands of pro-city strategists. They do sign holding in front of
Town Hall on Sunday at 3.00 pm - give me a break. You can imagine what a
confusion was created.

It was actually a very easy win for the NO voters. We blew it. We need to
accept responsibility Unlike the Presidential election where the camp of
the losing candidate is blaming the Russians, Oh No - it is Comey the FBI
director ...nope , it is Bernie Sanders.

Time to accept responsibility and move on. Let the recount be over for a
closure.

The recount is unlikely to change the outcome UNLESS the voting machines
after having neared their shelf life - has become very unreliable (the
hardware). The inverted bath tub reliability curve applies to voting
machines as well. Remember that the Town Clerk's office is requesting
funding from Town Meeting for new voting machines. This will come up during
the 2017 ATM. It will be an interesting discussion at the Ways & Means,
Capital Budget Committee and then finally at the TM.

We know Town Meeting has the power to derail the outcome of the April 4
election - but I don't think we should take that route. In spite of all the
deceptions resorted to.

NOTE: There are some folks who send me off list messages on what I should
or should not do. STOP lecturing.

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 12:51 AM, Lloyd Kaye <

Rest of post

No no, please keep lecturing. This is great stuff.

Rich Shapiro

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 12, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Dhruba Sen <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> Lloyd
>
> Time to move on. You remember our brief chat at Stop & Shop when I
> predicted a likely narrow win for the city supporters?
>
> I acquired the 33-page absentee ballot report and there isn't a scope for
> much change. Unless a voter voting in the Town Clerk's office (i.e. did not
> mail in ) was some what intimidated by the presence of some one to vote
> YES.
> Or some one returned the ballot in time but the ballot was rejected due to
> late return or the ballot is marked "Not Returned" . In either case - it
> will most likely constitute disenfranchisement.
>
> Well - there was a great opportunity to stop the train on its track when
> Kevin Crotty moved to defund the charter commission - and if passed - there
> could have been negotiations to bring back TM form of government on the
> table and take the 18 month time line instead of the expedited route. The
> CC blew their $15000 which they got by statue and asked for $50,000 more
> from TM. They could have raised that money from elsewhere but chose to use
> tax payer $$$. And by that time it was very clear in which direction the CC
> was going - including the "strong mayor" provision. We know the history.
>
> Then a group ran the lousiest and arrogant campaign that I witnessed in my
> 25+ years of political activism. They are pro-city (weak mayor) but asking
> voters to vote NO to City. There is no mention of "City" in the ballot
> question yet that group asked voters to vote NO to City - playing right
> into the hands of pro-city strategists. They do sign holding in front of
> Town Hall on Sunday at 3.00 pm - give me a break. You can imagine what a
> confusion was created.
>
> It was actually a very easy win for the NO voters. We blew it. We need to
> accept responsibility Unlike the Presidential election where the camp of
> the losing candidate is blaming the Russians, Oh No - it is Comey the FBI
> director ...nope , it is Bernie Sanders.
>
> Time to accept responsibility and move on. Let the recount be over for a
> closure.
>
> The recount is unlikely to change the outcome UNLESS the voting machines
> after having neared their shelf life - has become very unreliable (the
> hardware). The inverted bath tub reliability curve applies to voting
> machines as well. Remember that the Town Clerk's office is requesting
> funding from Town Meeting for new voting machines. This will come up during
> the 2017 ATM. It will be an interesting discussion at the Ways & Means,
> Capital Budget Committee and then finally at the TM.
>
>
> We know Town Meeting has the power to derail the outcome of the April 4
> election - but I don't think we should take that route. In spite of all the
> deceptions resorted to.
>
> NOTE: There are some folks who send me off list messages on what I should
> or should not do. STOP lecturing.
>
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 12:51 AM, Lloyd Kaye <
> <email obscured>> wrote:
>
>> Just like Congressman John Lewis does not see Donald trump as a legitimate
>> president I do not and will not see the City proposal turning Framingham's
>> 317 year old govt from Town to city as legitimate. Why? Very simple. The
>> money and the process. Before the candidates for the charter commission
>> were ever voted on I saw a process that in my opinion was not legitimate.
>> We are left now with what ever the outcome of the recount is. If the City
>> proposal wins after the recount I will hope the people of Framingham are
>> served and governed in the interests of the common good.
>> Lloyd Kaye
>> Framingham
>>
>> Lloyd Kaye
>> framingham
>> About/contact Lloyd Kaye: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/lloydkaye
>>
>>
>> Be sure to read our charter at http://forums.e-democracy.org/
>> groups/framgov/charter.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------
>> Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
>> r/topic/3qHU5OFSNhdjnjibypsOjr
>> New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
>> Digest: Subject: digest on
>> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
>> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** #Got Community? ***
>> Join 177 neighbors who have donated over $7,250 toward our $12K goal.
>> Add your donation today!
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/about/donate/
>>
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks !!
>
> Dhruba
>
>
> Dhruba Sen
> Framingham
> About/contact Dhruba Sen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dhrubasen
>
>
> Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4RSZFErZ2ikxzJLpV6jtJn

Rest of post

Of what I understand, the recount is scheduled for April 24. I expect that all
11341 ballots will physically be counted by hand. Anything short of that will
not suffice. They may do a sort into 3 piles, the YES, the NO, and the BLANK
piles. After that, I expect that the sorted piles will be hand-counted as well
as removing mistakenly placed ballots and placing into the correct piles.
Assuming the hand-count along with sorting by voter's intent has been done, I
will accept the result even if CITY WON by a mere ONE VOTE. At least they don't
count all ballots in one count, but rather do a recount for each of the 18
precincts and then add them together.

If Town prevail in the recount, then we're a TOWN.
If City prevail in the recount, then we MUST make the transition to City.

In the meantime, start thinking about doing CITY and DON'T STOP thinking about
CITY till the result says TOWN. There's a distinct possibility that CITY will
be affirmed in the recount. Doing current Town business in the meantime and
possibly during the transition is not only fair game, but also very much
encouraged, as one may say.

William LaBarge

i would characterize Dhruba's assessment of the commission and the process as
unfair, untrue, and disrespectful to our voters, i was one who was on the
fence for quite a while and one of the reasons why i voted ''city'' was because
of statements like this. i wonder how many other undecideds voted ''city'' for
the same reason.

i think ''honest, dignified, and professional'' are the words i would use for
the vibe i got from the members of the commission. i had far more confidence
in their statements over what i was hearing from the opposition. there were no
promises other than their product would serve Framingham better. and i believe
it will.

28% of framingham voters turned out because we knew exactly what we were voting
on, Dhruba. we. the voters, know how to read.

walter siggins pct 13 tmm....for a little while longer....go flyers

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:40 AM, "<email obscured>"
<<email obscured>> wrote:

No no, please keep lecturing. This is great stuff.

Rich Shapiro

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 12, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Dhruba Sen <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> Lloyd
>
> Time to move on. You remember our brief chat at Stop & Shop when I
> predicted a likely narrow win for the city supporters?
>
> I acquired the 33-page absentee ballot report and there isn't a scope for
> much change. Unless a voter voting in the Town Clerk's office (i.e. did not
> mail in ) was some what intimidated by the presence of some one to vote
> YES.
> Or some one returned the ballot in time but the ballot was rejected due to
> late return or the ballot is marked "Not Returned" . In either case - it
> will most likely constitute disenfranchisement.
>
> Well - there was a great opportunity to stop the train on its track when
> Kevin Crotty moved to defund the charter commission - and if passed - there
> could have been negotiations to bring back TM form of government on the
> table and take the 18 month time line instead of the expedited route. The
> CC blew their $15000 which they got by statue and asked for $50,000 more
> from TM. They could have raised that money from elsewhere but chose to use
> tax payer $$$. And by that time it was very clear in which direction the CC
> was going - including the "strong mayor" provision. We know the history.
>
> Then a group ran the lousiest and arrogant campaign that I witnessed in my
> 25+ years of political activism. They are pro-city (weak mayor) but asking
> voters to vote NO to City. There is no mention of "City" in the ballot
> question yet that group asked voters to vote NO to City - playing right
> into the hands of pro-city strategists. They do sign holding in front of
> Town Hall on Sunday at 3.00 pm - give me a break. You can imagine what a
> confusion was created.
>
> It was actually a very easy win for the NO voters. We blew it. We need to
> accept responsibility Unlike the Presidential election where the camp of
> the losing candidate is blaming the Russians, Oh No - it is Comey the FBI
> director ...nope , it is Bernie Sanders.
>
> Time to accept responsibility and move on. Let the recount be over for a
> closure.
>
> The recount is unlikely to change the outcome UNLESS the voting machines
> after having neared their shelf life - has become very unreliable (the
> hardware). The inverted bath tub reliability curve applies to voting
> machines as well. Remember that the Town Clerk's office is requesting
> funding from Town Meeting for new voting machines. This will come up during
> the 2017 ATM. It will be an interesting discussion at the Ways & Means,
> Capital Budget Committee and then finally at the TM.
>
>
> We know Town Meeting has the power to derail the outcome of the April 4
> election - but I don't think we should take that route. In spite of all the
> deceptions resorted to.
>
> NOTE: There are some folks who send me off list messages on what I should
> or should not do. STOP lecturing.
>
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 12:51 AM, Lloyd Kaye <
> <email obscured>> wrote:
>
>> Just like Congressman John Lewis does not see Donald trump as a legitimate
>> president I do not and will not see the City proposal turning Framingham's
>> 317 year old govt from Town to city as legitimate. Why? Very simple. The
>> money and the process. Before the candidates for the charter commission
>> were ever voted on I saw a process that in my opinion was not legitimate.
>> We are left now with what ever the outcome of the recount is. If the City
>> proposal wins after the recount I will hope the people of Framingham are
>> served and governed in the interests of the common good.
>> Lloyd Kaye
>> Framingham
>>
>> Lloyd Kaye
>> framingham
>> About/contact Lloyd Kaye: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/lloydkaye
>>
>>
>> Be sure to read our charter at http://forums.e-democracy.org/
>> groups/framgov/charter.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------
>> Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
>> r/topic/3qHU5OFSNhdjnjibypsOjr
>> New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
>> Digest: Subject: digest on
>> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
>> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *** #Got Community? ***
>> Join 177 neighbors who have donated over $7,250 toward our $12K goal.
>> Add your donation today!
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/about/donate/
>>
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks !!
>
> Dhruba
>
>
> Dhruba Sen
> Framingham
> About/contact Dhruba Sen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dhrubasen
>
>
> Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4RSZFErZ2ikxzJLpV6jtJn
> New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
>
>
>
>
> *** #Got Community? ***
> Join 177 neighbors who have donated over $7,250 toward our $12K goal.
> Add your donation today!
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/about/donate/
>
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>

Rich Shapiro
Framingham, Framingham
About/contact Rich Shapiro: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/richshapiro

Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.

Rest of post

You go Walter!

I would also like to know how "Town Meeting has the power to derail the outcome
of the April 4 election - but I don't think we should take that route." And
how kind of Mr. Sen to decide that TMM shouldn’t take the route of overriding
the will of the voters.

As to how the recount should be done, seems to me the recount should be done in
accordance with the applicable rather than by any process we might want to
impose.
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleVIII/Chapter54/Section135

Rest of post

Walter says

*"i would characterize Dhruba's assessment of the commission and the
process as unfair, untrue, and disrespectful to our voters,"*

Deny the data I provided? Back up your statements with facts - not "Fake
News".

Walter Says

*" i was one who was on the fence for quite a while and one of the reasons
why i voted ''city'' was because of statements like this. i wonder how
many other undecideds voted ''city'' for the same reason. "*

Remember the following post of mine on June 27, 2016 at 10.28 pm ? You have
consistently posted pro-city stuff ending with that you are analyzing and
evolving - this is easily verifiable. Never the other point of view. I
have nothing more to add on this !!

"Some city lobbyists are pretending how neutral they are, how open minded they
are. They are looking into all aspects of Town Meeting vs City form of
government.
And they are evolving and evolving and analyzing and analyzing and evolving
…ultimately will be convinced that a City form is best suited for
Framingham. This is an insult to Framingham residents in that it is assumed
that they can’t see through this" - post title "The Illusive Pros & Cons,
The Issues List - from Framingham Charter Commission"

Walter Says

*"28% of framingham voters turned out because we knew exactly what we were
voting on, Dhruba. we. the voters, know how to read."*
.
Oops - my mistake. A similar thing happened last Nov and we got Trump. This
may be because of the Russians, Comey the FBI director or Bernie Sanders
... who knows. I am not suggesting we say "Not My Government (Framingham) "
like many are saying "Not My President". Who knows - the Framingham
residents may rise against the deceptions resorted to.

@ Ms. Craighead - on a 3 point complexity scale simple-average-complex,
this is a simple thing. I can't help you if can't comprehend this. Sorry.

PS: I will enjoy the vicious delusional rant incoming - ha! ha !!

Rest of post

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 12:50 PM, W. Siggins <<email obscured>> wrote:

> i would characterize Dhruba's assessment of the commission and the process
> as unfair, untrue, and disrespectful to our voters, i was one who was on
> the fence for quite a while and one of the reasons why i voted ''city'' was
> because of statements like this. i wonder how many other undecideds voted
> ''city'' for the same reason.
>
>
>
> i think ''honest, dignified, and professional'' are the words i would use
> for the vibe i got from the members of the commission. i had far more
> confidence in their statements over what i was hearing from the opposition.
> there were no promises other than their product would serve Framingham
> better. and i believe it will.
>
>
>
> 28% of framingham voters turned out because we knew exactly what we were
> voting on, Dhruba. we. the voters, know how to read.
>
>
>
> walter siggins pct 13 tmm....for a little while longer....go flyers
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:40 AM, "<email obscured>" <
> <email obscured>> wrote:
>
>
> No no, please keep lecturing. This is great stuff.
>
> Rich Shapiro
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 12, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Dhruba Sen <<email obscured>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Lloyd
> >
> > Time to move on. You remember our brief chat at Stop & Shop when I
> > predicted a likely narrow win for the city supporters?
> >
> > I acquired the 33-page absentee ballot report and there isn't a scope for
> > much change. Unless a voter voting in the Town Clerk's office (i.e. did
> not
> > mail in ) was some what intimidated by the presence of some one to vote
> > YES.
> > Or some one returned the ballot in time but the ballot was rejected due
> to
> > late return or the ballot is marked "Not Returned" . In either case - it
> > will most likely constitute disenfranchisement.
> >
> > Well - there was a great opportunity to stop the train on its track when
> > Kevin Crotty moved to defund the charter commission - and if passed -
> there
> > could have been negotiations to bring back TM form of government on the
> > table and take the 18 month time line instead of the expedited route. The
> > CC blew their $15000 which they got by statue and asked for $50,000 more
> > from TM. They could have raised that money from elsewhere but chose to
> use
> > tax payer $$$. And by that time it was very clear in which direction the
> CC
> > was going - including the "strong mayor" provision. We know the history.
> >
> > Then a group ran the lousiest and arrogant campaign that I witnessed in
> my
> > 25+ years of political activism. They are pro-city (weak mayor) but
> asking
> > voters to vote NO to City. There is no mention of "City" in the ballot
> > question yet that group asked voters to vote NO to City - playing right
> > into the hands of pro-city strategists. They do sign holding in front of
> > Town Hall on Sunday at 3.00 pm - give me a break. You can imagine what a
> > confusion was created.
> >
> > It was actually a very easy win for the NO voters. We blew it. We need to
> > accept responsibility Unlike the Presidential election where the camp of
> > the losing candidate is blaming the Russians, Oh No - it is Comey the FBI
> > director ...nope , it is Bernie Sanders.
> >
> > Time to accept responsibility and move on. Let the recount be over for a
> > closure.
> >
> > The recount is unlikely to change the outcome UNLESS the voting machines
> > after having neared their shelf life - has become very unreliable (the
> > hardware). The inverted bath tub reliability curve applies to voting
> > machines as well. Remember that the Town Clerk's office is requesting
> > funding from Town Meeting for new voting machines. This will come up
> during
> > the 2017 ATM. It will be an interesting discussion at the Ways & Means,
> > Capital Budget Committee and then finally at the TM.
> >
> >
> > We know Town Meeting has the power to derail the outcome of the April 4
> > election - but I don't think we should take that route. In spite of all
> the
> > deceptions resorted to.
> >
> > NOTE: There are some folks who send me off list messages on what I should
> > or should not do. STOP lecturing.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 12:51 AM, Lloyd Kaye <
> > <email obscured>> wrote:
> >
> >> Just like Congressman John Lewis does not see Donald trump as a
> legitimate
> >> president I do not and will not see the City proposal turning
> Framingham's
> >> 317 year old govt from Town to city as legitimate. Why? Very simple. The
> >> money and the process. Before the candidates for the charter commission
> >> were ever voted on I saw a process that in my opinion was not
> legitimate.
> >> We are left now with what ever the outcome of the recount is. If the
> City
> >> proposal wins after the recount I will hope the people of Framingham are
> >> served and governed in the interests of the common good.
> >> Lloyd Kaye
> >> Framingham
> >>
> >> Lloyd Kaye
> >> framingham
> >> About/contact Lloyd Kaye: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/lloydkaye
> >>
> >>
> >> Be sure to read our charter at http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> >> groups/framgov/charter.
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------
> >> Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> >> r/topic/3qHU5OFSNhdjnjibypsOjr
> >> New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> >> Digest: Subject: digest on
> >> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> >> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *** #Got Community? ***
> >> Join 177 neighbors who have donated over $7,250 toward our $12K goal.
> >> Add your donation today!
> >> http://forums.e-democracy.org/about/donate/
> >>
> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks !!
> >
> > Dhruba
> >
> >
> > Dhruba Sen
> > Framingham
> > About/contact Dhruba Sen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dhrubasen
> >
> >
> > Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.
>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------
> > Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> r/topic/4RSZFErZ2ikxzJLpV6jtJn
> > New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> > Digest: Subject: digest on
> > Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** #Got Community? ***
> > Join 177 neighbors who have donated over $7,250 toward our $12K goal.
> > Add your donation today!
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/about/donate/
> >
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
> >
>
>
> Rich Shapiro
> Framingham, Framingham
> About/contact Rich Shapiro: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/richshapiro
>
>
> Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.
>
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> r/topic/3rO2vFifekk9vujmOf51Zc
>
> New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
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> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
>
>
>
>
> *** #Got Community? ***
> Join 177 neighbors who have donated over $7,250 toward our $12K goal.
> Add your donation today!
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/about/donate/
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
>
>

--
Thanks !!

Dhruba

vicious and delusional.....you must be mistaking me for someone else.

why i continue to waste a valuable public post to reply to dhruba is beyond me.
yet i continue to do so. i act as if he will someday ever respect an opinion
that differs from his own.

dhruba....my post was not a fact filled post. it was my opinion of the
commission, the process, and your post as well. i need no facts to back my
opinion. just as you use none to form your own.

the only factual statement i made was that 28% of us voted and we know how to
read. which part of that do you have a problem with.?

do ''activists'' ever take a day off.? or do you just move on to find or
create another problem.?

walter siggins pct 13 tmm

On Friday, April 14, 2017 11:34 AM, Dhruba Sen <<email obscured>>
wrote:

Walter says

*"i would characterize Dhruba's assessment of the commission and the
process as unfair, untrue, and disrespectful to our voters,"*

Deny the data I provided? Back up your statements with facts - not "Fake
News".

Walter Says

*" i was one who was on the fence for quite a while and one of the reasons
why i voted ''city'' was because of statements like this. i wonder how
many other undecideds voted ''city'' for the same reason. "*

Remember the following post of mine on June 27, 2016 at 10.28 pm ? You have
consistently posted pro-city stuff ending with that you are analyzing and
evolving - this is easily verifiable. Never the other point of view. I
have nothing more to add on this !!

"Some city lobbyists are pretending how neutral they are, how open minded they
are. They are looking into all aspects of Town Meeting vs City form of
government.
And they are evolving and evolving and analyzing and analyzing and evolving
…ultimately will be convinced that a City form is best suited for
Framingham. This is an insult to Framingham residents in that it is assumed
that they can’t see through this" - post title "The Illusive Pros & Cons,
The Issues List - from Framingham Charter Commission"

Walter Says

*"28% of framingham voters turned out because we knew exactly what we were
voting on, Dhruba. we. the voters, know how to read."*
.
Oops - my mistake. A similar thing happened last Nov and we got Trump. This
may be because of the Russians, Comey the FBI director or Bernie Sanders
... who knows. I am not suggesting we say "Not My Government (Framingham) "
like many are saying "Not My President". Who knows - the Framingham
residents may rise against the deceptions resorted to.

@ Ms. Craighead - on a 3 point complexity scale simple-average-complex,
this is a simple thing. I can't help you if can't comprehend this. Sorry.

PS: I will enjoy the vicious delusional rant incoming - ha! ha !!

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 12:50 PM, W. Siggins <<email obscured>> wrote:

> i would characterize Dhruba's assessment of the commission and the process
> as unfair, untrue, and disrespectful to our voters, i was one who was on
> the fence for quite a while and one of the reasons why i voted ''city'' was
> because of statements like this. i wonder how many other undecideds voted
> ''city'' for the same reason.
>
>
>
> i think ''honest, dignified, and professional'' are the words i would use
> for the vibe i got from the members of the commission. i had far more
> confidence in their statements over what i was hearing from the opposition.
> there were no promises other than their product would serve Framingham

Rest of post

> better. and i believe it will.
>
>
>
> 28% of framingham voters turned out because we knew exactly what we were
> voting on, Dhruba. we. the voters, know how to read.
>
>
>
> walter siggins pct 13 tmm....for a little while longer....go flyers
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:40 AM, "<email obscured>" <
> <email obscured>> wrote:
>
>
> No no, please keep lecturing. This is great stuff.
>
> Rich Shapiro
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 12, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Dhruba Sen <<email obscured>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Lloyd
> >
> > Time to move on. You remember our brief chat at Stop & Shop when I
> > predicted a likely narrow win for the city supporters?
> >
> > I acquired the 33-page absentee ballot report and there isn't a scope for
> > much change. Unless a voter voting in the Town Clerk's office (i.e. did
> not
> > mail in ) was some what intimidated by the presence of some one to vote
> > YES.
> > Or some one returned the ballot in time but the ballot was rejected due
> to
> > late return or the ballot is marked "Not Returned" . In either case - it
> > will most likely constitute disenfranchisement.
> >
> > Well - there was a great opportunity to stop the train on its track when
> > Kevin Crotty moved to defund the charter commission - and if passed -
> there
> > could have been negotiations to bring back TM form of government on the
> > table and take the 18 month time line instead of the expedited route. The
> > CC blew their $15000 which they got by statue and asked for $50,000 more
> > from TM. They could have raised that money from elsewhere but chose to
> use
> > tax payer $$$. And by that time it was very clear in which direction the
> CC
> > was going - including the "strong mayor" provision. We know the history.
> >
> > Then a group ran the lousiest and arrogant campaign that I witnessed in
> my
> > 25+ years of political activism. They are pro-city (weak mayor) but
> asking
> > voters to vote NO to City. There is no mention of "City" in the ballot
> > question yet that group asked voters to vote NO to City - playing right
> > into the hands of pro-city strategists. They do sign holding in front of
> > Town Hall on Sunday at 3.00 pm - give me a break. You can imagine what a
> > confusion was created.
> >
> > It was actually a very easy win for the NO voters. We blew it. We need to
> > accept responsibility Unlike the Presidential election where the camp of
> > the losing candidate is blaming the Russians, Oh No - it is Comey the FBI
> > director ...nope , it is Bernie Sanders.
> >
> > Time to accept responsibility and move on. Let the recount be over for a
> > closure.
> >
> > The recount is unlikely to change the outcome UNLESS the voting machines
> > after having neared their shelf life - has become very unreliable (the
> > hardware). The inverted bath tub reliability curve applies to voting
> > machines as well. Remember that the Town Clerk's office is requesting
> > funding from Town Meeting for new voting machines. This will come up
> during
> > the 2017 ATM. It will be an interesting discussion at the Ways & Means,
> > Capital Budget Committee and then finally at the TM.
> >
> >
> > We know Town Meeting has the power to derail the outcome of the April 4
> > election - but I don't think we should take that route. In spite of all
> the
> > deceptions resorted to.
> >
> > NOTE: There are some folks who send me off list messages on what I should
> > or should not do. STOP lecturing.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 12:51 AM, Lloyd Kaye <
> > <email obscured>> wrote:
> >
> >> Just like Congressman John Lewis does not see Donald trump as a
> legitimate
> >> president I do not and will not see the City proposal turning
> Framingham's
> >> 317 year old govt from Town to city as legitimate. Why? Very simple. The
> >> money and the process. Before the candidates for the charter commission
> >> were ever voted on I saw a process that in my opinion was not
> legitimate.
> >> We are left now with what ever the outcome of the recount is. If the
> City
> >> proposal wins after the recount I will hope the people of Framingham are
> >> served and governed in the interests of the common good.
> >> Lloyd Kaye
> >> Framingham
> >>
> >> Lloyd Kaye
> >> framingham
> >> About/contact Lloyd Kaye: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/lloydkaye
> >>
> >>
> >> Be sure to read our charter at http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> >> groups/framgov/charter.
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------
> >> Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> >> r/topic/3qHU5OFSNhdjnjibypsOjr
> >> New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> >> Digest: Subject: digest on
> >> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> >> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *** #Got Community? ***
> >> Join 177 neighbors who have donated over $7,250 toward our $12K goal.
> >> Add your donation today!
> >> http://forums.e-democracy.org/about/donate/
> >>
> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks !!
> >
> > Dhruba
> >
> >
> > Dhruba Sen
> > Framingham
> > About/contact Dhruba Sen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dhrubasen
> >
> >
> > Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.
>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------
> > Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> r/topic/4RSZFErZ2ikxzJLpV6jtJn
> > New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> > Digest: Subject: digest on
> > Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** #Got Community? ***
> > Join 177 neighbors who have donated over $7,250 toward our $12K goal.
> > Add your donation today!
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/about/donate/
> >
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
> >
>
>
> Rich Shapiro
> Framingham, Framingham
> About/contact Rich Shapiro: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/richshapiro
>
>
> Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.
>
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> r/topic/3rO2vFifekk9vujmOf51Zc
>
> New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
>
>
>
>
> *** #Got Community? ***
> Join 177 neighbors who have donated over $7,250 toward our $12K goal.
> Add your donation today!
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/about/donate/
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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>
>
>
>

--
Thanks !!

Dhruba

Dhruba Sen
Framingham
About/contact Dhruba Sen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dhrubasen

Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.

------------------------
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Mr. Sen,

It¹s difficult if not impossible for posters to find, understand, and
accept the ³facts² in your posts when the tone of your writing and the
statements that you make attacking and challenging other posters are so
disrespectful. The majority of the posters in this forum get their points
across calmly, factually, and thoughtfully, which makes posters want to
read them and participate in the threads. Posts like yours that are
argumentative and mean spirited might be read, but they are more often
than not ignored and deleted in disgust.

I would suggest that if there¹s a cause or vote that¹s important to you in
the future, and if you want to be taken seriously in this forum, that you
write and re-read your posts before sending and delete them if there is
any possibility that the tone and contents might be viewed negatively by
your fellow posters. Our right to be respected in this forum trumps your
right to be disrespectful every time.

Nancy Donchin

Rest of post

There you go Walter - you form your opinions not based on facts but
possibly Fake News ?. But I admire you in that you admit that your opinions
are not based on facts. Ha ! Ha !!

@Nancy (and others) - you are free to use your delete key, if you have
one.

Enjoy the week end.

Rest of post

dhruba....go back to school. i need no facts to BACK my opinion. i use facts
to FORM my opinion.

you are nothing but a caricature who few take seriously. it'll take about five
years of sober commenting to change that and i don't think you have that in
you. there....that's an example of being disrespectful.

if you can't be respectful, as others have asked, then please don't comment
publicly to my posts. my original reply to you was quite respectful. if one
can respectfully oppose your opinion, in your own mind.

why don't you kick back and relax this weekend. explore a hobby. enjoy the
weather. wanna come over and watch a ball game.? i've got the MLB network
which has around the clock baseball. make it Monday though. i've got yard
work and a baseball team to help coach.

you don't always have to have an adversary in your life. try fishing. catch
and release...of course.

walter siggins

On Friday, April 14, 2017 1:33 PM, Dhruba Sen <<email obscured>>
wrote:

There you go Walter - you form your opinions not based on facts but
possibly Fake News ?. But I admire you in that you admit that your opinions
are not based on facts. Ha ! Ha !!

@Nancy (and others) - you are free to use your delete key, if you have
one.

Enjoy the week end.

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Nancy Donchin <<email obscured>> wrote:

> Mr. Sen,
>
> It¹s difficult if not impossible for posters to find, understand, and
> accept the ³facts² in your posts when the tone of your writing and the
> statements that you make attacking and challenging other posters are so
> disrespectful. The majority of the posters in this forum get their points
> across calmly, factually, and thoughtfully, which makes posters want to
> read them and participate in the threads. Posts like yours that are
> argumentative and mean spirited might be read, but they are more often
> than not ignored and deleted in disgust.
>
> I would suggest that if there¹s a cause or vote that¹s important to you in
> the future, and if you want to be taken seriously in this forum, that you
> write and re-read your posts before sending and delete them if there is
> any possibility that the tone and contents might be viewed negatively by
> your fellow posters. Our right to be respected in this forum trumps your
> right to be disrespectful every time.
>
> Nancy Donchin
>
>
>
>
> Nancy Donchin
> Framingham
> About/contact Nancy Donchin: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/nancydonchin
>
>
> Be sure to read our charter at http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> groups/framgov/charter.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> r/topic/6iCmaqeErkgKPeqTWSDBNg
> New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov

Rest of post

But Mr. Sen, I thought you were interested in educating people. I certainly
defer to your far superior intelligence and understanding of municipal
government, but I am simply at lost to understand how TM has "the power to
derail the outcome of the April 4 election". I merely hoped for enlightenment.
If it is so very simple, then shouldn’t you be able to explain it to me? Or
perhaps just provide me with the source of the facts underlying your opinion.
You did say you used facts, right?

Thank you.

S. Craighead

Rest of post

Folks...... With me having survived a go-round with Mr. Sen during which my
intelligence was soundly insulted and I was called a name that I find so
offensive I won't repeat it here I can assure you that like other various
personalities on this loop, you are unlikely to cause a paradigm shift in how
Mr. Sen approaches discourse on this loop.

Save your breath for someone who is both worthy of your input and capable of
being open to different viewpoints.

Rest of post

ENTERTAINMENT CHANNEL #2.

Walter says:

*"dhruba....go back to school"*

Why should I ? I have a graduate degree from a some what reputable
Institute - into which you will never ever get into during your life time
<notice my arrogance? Ha ! Ha !!> Or are you questioning the the reputation
of that Institute.?

Walter says

*"i need no facts to BACK my opinion. i use facts to FORM my opinion." *

Oh my goodness !! This must be true for most city lobbyists. So you have a
set of facts which you use to FORM your opinion. After that you forget what
those FACTS are ? Or you don't want to divulge what those facts are because
they are "Alternate Facts" ?

Walter says

*"you are nothing but a caricature who few take seriously. " *

This is really a very respectful comment - Thanks. You became a Town
Meeting Member by the so called "back door method". When I became, I was
the TOP vote getter in my precinct and shook up the "establishment TMMs"
from my precinct. I have been a member of Standing Committees on Community
Services and Education. Currently a member of Ways & Means, Rules and Fair
Housing. Where are you and What does that say about you?

Walter Says

*" if you can't be respectful, as others have asked, then please don't
comment publicly to my posts. my original reply to you was quite
respectful. if one can respectfully oppose your opinion, in your own
mind."*

<* my original reply to you was quite respectful.> *Really ? And you are
the one who is following up with posts after post.

@Ms.Craighead. You still don't get it. If you can't comprehend things
simple - why should I spent time on you? But let me try it another way. My
hourly rate to resolve things SIMPLE is minimum $500. If you want to engage
me to explain this simple thing I can do that at the quoted rate. But since
this is a HIGH RISK venture for me ( since you may not get it in spite of
my best efforts) , it has to be on a TIME & MATERIAL With No Cap basis. Let
me know if this will work for you. I will write up the contract and send it
to you. Good luck !!

Enjoy the week end.

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:59 PM, W. Siggins <<email obscured>> wrote:

> dhruba....go back to school. i need no facts to BACK my opinion. i use
> facts to FORM my opinion.
>
>
> you are nothing but a caricature who few take seriously. it'll take about
> five years of sober commenting to change that and i don't think you have
> that in you. there....that's an example of being disrespectful.
>
>
> if you can't be respectful, as others have asked, then please don't
> comment publicly to my posts. my original reply to you was quite
> respectful. if one can respectfully oppose your opinion, in your own mind.
>
>
> why don't you kick back and relax this weekend. explore a hobby. enjoy
> the weather. wanna come over and watch a ball game.? i've got the MLB
> network which has around the clock baseball. make it Monday though. i've
> got yard work and a baseball team to help coach.
>
>
> you don't always have to have an adversary in your life. try fishing.
> catch and release...of course.
>
>
> walter siggins
>
>
> On Friday, April 14, 2017 1:33 PM, Dhruba Sen <<email obscured>>
> wrote:
>
>
> There you go Walter - you form your opinions not based on facts but
> possibly Fake News ?. But I admire you in that you admit that your opinions
> are not based on facts. Ha ! Ha !!
>
> @Nancy (and others) - you are free to use your delete key, if you have
> one.
>
> Enjoy the week end.
>
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Nancy Donchin <<email obscured>>
> wrote:
>
> > Mr. Sen,
> >
> > It¹s difficult if not impossible for posters to find, understand, and
> > accept the ³facts² in your posts when the tone of your writing and the
> > statements that you make attacking and challenging other posters are so
> > disrespectful. The majority of the posters in this forum get their points
> > across calmly, factually, and thoughtfully, which makes posters want to
> > read them and participate in the threads. Posts like yours that are
> > argumentative and mean spirited might be read, but they are more often
> > than not ignored and deleted in disgust.
> >
> > I would suggest that if there¹s a cause or vote that¹s important to you
> in
> > the future, and if you want to be taken seriously in this forum, that you
> > write and re-read your posts before sending and delete them if there is
> > any possibility that the tone and contents might be viewed negatively by
> > your fellow posters. Our right to be respected in this forum trumps your
> > right to be disrespectful every time.
> >
> > Nancy Donchin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nancy Donchin
> > Framingham
> > About/contact Nancy Donchin: http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> p/nancydonchin
> >
> >
> > Be sure to read our charter at http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> > groups/framgov/charter.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------
> > Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> > r/topic/6iCmaqeErkgKPeqTWSDBNg
> > New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> > Digest: Subject: digest on
> > Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ***
> > Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Thanks !!
>
> Dhruba
>
>
> Dhruba Sen
> Framingham
> About/contact Dhruba Sen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dhrubasen
>
>
> Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.

Rest of post

Dhruba....wanna just thumb wrestle.?

walter siggins

On Saturday, April 15, 2017 5:28 PM, Dhruba Sen <<email obscured>>
wrote:

ENTERTAINMENT CHANNEL #2.
Walter says:
"dhruba....go back to school"
Why should I ? I have a graduate degree from a some what reputable Institute -
into which you will never ever get into during your life time <notice my
arrogance? Ha ! Ha !!> Or are you questioning the the reputation of that
Institute.?
Walter says
"i need no facts to BACK my opinion. i use facts to FORM my opinion."
Oh my goodness !! This must be true for most city lobbyists. So you have a set
of facts which you use to FORM your opinion. After that you forget what those
FACTS are ? Or you don't want to divulge what those facts are because they are
"Alternate Facts" ?
Walter says
"you are nothing but a caricature who few take seriously. "
This is really a very respectful comment - Thanks. You became a Town Meeting
Member by the so called "back door method". When I became, I was the TOP vote
getter in my precinct and shook up the "establishment TMMs" from my precinct. I
have been a member of Standing Committees on Community Services and Education.
Currently a member of Ways & Means, Rules and Fair Housing. Where are you and
What does that say about you?
Walter Says
" if you can't be respectful, as others have asked, then please don't comment
publicly to my posts. my original reply to you was quite respectful. if one
can respectfully oppose your opinion, in your own mind."
< my original reply to you was quite respectful.> Really ? And you are the one
who is following up with posts after post.
@Ms.Craighead. You still don't get it. If you can't comprehend things simple -
why should I spent time on you? But let me try it another way. My hourly rate
to resolve things SIMPLE is minimum $500. If you want to engage me to explain
this simple thing I can do that at the quoted rate. But since this is a HIGH
RISK venture for me ( since you may not get it in spite of my best efforts) ,
it has to be on a TIME & MATERIAL With No Cap basis. Let me know if this will
work for you. I will write up the contract and send it to you. Good luck !!
Enjoy the week end.

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:59 PM, W. Siggins <<email obscured>> wrote:

dhruba....go back to school. i need no facts to BACK my opinion. i use facts
to FORM my opinion.

you are nothing but a caricature who few take seriously. it'll take about five
years of sober commenting to change that and i don't think you have that in
you. there....that's an example of being disrespectful.

if you can't be respectful, as others have asked, then please don't comment
publicly to my posts. my original reply to you was quite respectful. if one
can respectfully oppose your opinion, in your own mind.

why don't you kick back and relax this weekend. explore a hobby. enjoy the
weather. wanna come over and watch a ball game.? i've got the MLB network
which has around the clock baseball. make it Monday though. i've got yard
work and a baseball team to help coach.

you don't always have to have an adversary in your life. try fishing. catch
and release...of course.

walter siggins

On Friday, April 14, 2017 1:33 PM, Dhruba Sen <<email obscured>>
wrote:

There you go Walter - you form your opinions not based on facts but
possibly Fake News ?. But I admire you in that you admit that your opinions
are not based on facts. Ha ! Ha !!

@Nancy (and others) - you are free to use your delete key, if you have
one.

Enjoy the week end.

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Nancy Donchin <<email obscured>> wrote:

> Mr. Sen,
>
> It¹s difficult if not impossible for posters to find, understand, and
> accept the ³facts² in your posts when the tone of your writing and the
> statements that you make attacking and challenging other posters are so
> disrespectful. The majority of the posters in this forum get their points
> across calmly, factually, and thoughtfully, which makes posters want to
> read them and participate in the threads. Posts like yours that are
> argumentative and mean spirited might be read, but they are more often
> than not ignored and deleted in disgust.
>
> I would suggest that if there¹s a cause or vote that¹s important to you in
> the future, and if you want to be taken seriously in this forum, that you
> write and re-read your posts before sending and delete them if there is
> any possibility that the tone and contents might be viewed negatively by
> your fellow posters. Our right to be respected in this forum trumps your
> right to be disrespectful every time.
>
> Nancy Donchin
>
>
>
>
> Nancy Donchin
> Framingham
> About/contact Nancy Donchin: http://forums.e-democracy.org/ p/nancydonchin
>
>
> Be sure to read our charter at http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> groups/framgov/charter.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> r/topic/6iCmaqeErkgKPeqTWSDBNg
> New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/ groups/framgov

Rest of post

To be clear, the personal insults made by both Mr. Siggins and Mr. Sen are
completely unacceptable violations of FramGov civility rules and will be dealt
with.

I apologize for not noticing and dealing with the rather obvious infractions
earlier.

Gentlemen, if you want to spar, go find another forum to do it in.

WOW! For someone who posts about events geared around inclusiveness, you sure
do know how to alienate people.

Coming from a family where no one holds less than at least one postgraduate
degree - each - I would ten thousand times rather spend an hour with someone
who dropped out of kindergarten than spend one hot minute with someone who
wears their degree as a cudgel to subvert their peers. And remember that there
are plenty of BRILLIANT people with no college degrees and plenty of idiots
with PhDs. The measure of a man is not in his degree of education as much as
the degree to which he respects his fellow man.

Rest of post

----- Original Message -----

From: "Dhruba Sen" <<email obscured>>
To: "W. Siggins" <<email obscured>>
Cc: "Framingham Government Forum - FramGov - Massachusetts"
<framgov@forums.e-democracy.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 5:27:19 PM
Subject: Re: [FramGov] Charter: What if the recount affirm the vote?

ENTERTAINMENT CHANNEL #2.

Walter says:

*"dhruba....go back to school"*

Why should I ? I have a graduate degree from a some what reputable
Institute - into which you will never ever get into during your life time
<notice my arrogance? Ha ! Ha !!> Or are you questioning the the reputation
of that Institute.?

Walter says

*"i need no facts to BACK my opinion. i use facts to FORM my opinion." *

Oh my goodness !! This must be true for most city lobbyists. So you have a
set of facts which you use to FORM your opinion. After that you forget what
those FACTS are ? Or you don't want to divulge what those facts are because
they are "Alternate Facts" ?

Walter says

*"you are nothing but a caricature who few take seriously. " *

This is really a very respectful comment - Thanks. You became a Town
Meeting Member by the so called "back door method". When I became, I was
the TOP vote getter in my precinct and shook up the "establishment TMMs"
from my precinct. I have been a member of Standing Committees on Community
Services and Education. Currently a member of Ways & Means, Rules and Fair
Housing. Where are you and What does that say about you?

Walter Says

*" if you can't be respectful, as others have asked, then please don't
comment publicly to my posts. my original reply to you was quite
respectful. if one can respectfully oppose your opinion, in your own
mind."*

<* my original reply to you was quite respectful.> *Really ? And you are
the one who is following up with posts after post.

@Ms.Craighead. You still don't get it. If you can't comprehend things
simple - why should I spent time on you? But let me try it another way. My
hourly rate to resolve things SIMPLE is minimum $500. If you want to engage
me to explain this simple thing I can do that at the quoted rate. But since
this is a HIGH RISK venture for me ( since you may not get it in spite of
my best efforts) , it has to be on a TIME & MATERIAL With No Cap basis. Let
me know if this will work for you. I will write up the contract and send it
to you. Good luck !!

Enjoy the week end.

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:59 PM, W. Siggins <<email obscured>> wrote:

> dhruba....go back to school. i need no facts to BACK my opinion. i use
> facts to FORM my opinion.
>
>
> you are nothing but a caricature who few take seriously. it'll take about
> five years of sober commenting to change that and i don't think you have
> that in you. there....that's an example of being disrespectful.
>
>
> if you can't be respectful, as others have asked, then please don't
> comment publicly to my posts. my original reply to you was quite
> respectful. if one can respectfully oppose your opinion, in your own mind.
>
>
> why don't you kick back and relax this weekend. explore a hobby. enjoy
> the weather. wanna come over and watch a ball game.? i've got the MLB
> network which has around the clock baseball. make it Monday though. i've
> got yard work and a baseball team to help coach.
>
>
> you don't always have to have an adversary in your life. try fishing.
> catch and release...of course.
>
>
> walter siggins
>
>
> On Friday, April 14, 2017 1:33 PM, Dhruba Sen <<email obscured>>
> wrote:
>
>
> There you go Walter - you form your opinions not based on facts but
> possibly Fake News ?. But I admire you in that you admit that your opinions
> are not based on facts. Ha ! Ha !!
>
> @Nancy (and others) - you are free to use your delete key, if you have
> one.
>
> Enjoy the week end.
>
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Nancy Donchin <<email obscured>>
> wrote:
>
> > Mr. Sen,
> >
> > It¹s difficult if not impossible for posters to find, understand, and
> > accept the ³facts² in your posts when the tone of your writing and the
> > statements that you make attacking and challenging other posters are so
> > disrespectful. The majority of the posters in this forum get their points
> > across calmly, factually, and thoughtfully, which makes posters want to
> > read them and participate in the threads. Posts like yours that are
> > argumentative and mean spirited might be read, but they are more often
> > than not ignored and deleted in disgust.
> >
> > I would suggest that if there¹s a cause or vote that¹s important to you
> in
> > the future, and if you want to be taken seriously in this forum, that you
> > write and re-read your posts before sending and delete them if there is
> > any possibility that the tone and contents might be viewed negatively by
> > your fellow posters. Our right to be respected in this forum trumps your
> > right to be disrespectful every time.
> >
> > Nancy Donchin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nancy Donchin
> > Framingham
> > About/contact Nancy Donchin: http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> p/nancydonchin
> >
> >
> > Be sure to read our charter at http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> > groups/framgov/charter.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------
> > Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> > r/topic/6iCmaqeErkgKPeqTWSDBNg
> > New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> > Digest: Subject: digest on
> > Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *** - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ***
> > Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Thanks !!
>
> Dhruba
>
>
> Dhruba Sen
> Framingham
> About/contact Dhruba Sen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dhrubasen
>
>
> Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.
>
>
>
> ------------------------
> Reply: Reply-All or visit http://forums.e-democracy.org/
> r/topic/6YvhWg3rMz6lUdqfzzsk49
>
> New Topic: framgov@forums.e-democracy.org
> Digest: Subject: digest on
> Leave: Subject: unsubscribe
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov
>
>
>
>
> *** - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ***
> Help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting: http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
>
>

--
Thanks !!

Dhruba

Dhruba Sen
Framingham
About/contact Dhruba Sen: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/dhrubasen

Be sure to read our charter at
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framgov/charter.

------------------------
Reply: Reply-All or visit
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5MiX9TRWskc96HuazFomIG
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That DID it. Let's settle this once and for all.

Subpoenas at Dawn — whoever she is. Or was it Don?

Naah, too costly.

OK, let's beat each other upside the head with our postgraduate diplomas.
Watch out for the guys from M-IT (Missouri-Illinois Tractor). They print
theirs on solid steel.

Apart from the thrill of watching grownups slag each other, I worry that
this vote, with a 1% margin that might invert but is unlikely to grow under
recount, will irrevocably change things. I'd expect final action on
momentous changes should command more than a one-time count of a simple
majority of a 28% turnout. Which, given the weather that day, might have
hampered our older, mobility-deprived citizens.

Does someone have a formula for calculating what bias that introduced?

No matter: the pipple has spocken.
Brexit's a-comin'.
Betsy Devos owns our educational future.
. . . What could possibly go wrong?

_ _ _ _ _ Personal note:
I'm not that deeply committed to either outcome of a recount, though
hanging Chad is a good excuse for a trip downtown. If I hate the result, I
could always move to West Virginia. But the way these things get decided
makes me nervous.
One of many downsides of being a process guy.

_ _ _ _ _ Less personal notes:
• http://clerk.house.gov/legislative/legfaq.aspx
A *quorum* in the *House of Representatives* is when a majority of the
Members are present.

• https://www.senate.gov/reference/glossary_term/quorum.htm
The Constitution requires a majority of senators (51) for a quorum.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Convention_(United_States)
A quorum of the 13 states only existed 11 days after the formal start of
the convention, after the representatives of 7 states registered at the
Pennsylvania State House. (If they'd chosen Las Vegas or Mar-a-Lago,
people would be motivated to arrive, or perhaps get the hell out of there,
more promptly).

In this country, a proposed constitutional amendment requires 2/3
supermajorities of quorum-compliant (see above) votes in both the House and
Senate to get rolled out to the states, 3/4 of which must then ratify the
proposal. Their various ratification rules would gag the maggots off the
s█°┌wagon, but that's just my opinion.

NPR had an amusing item today (04/16/2017) of the 20th amendment (women's
suffrage) succeeding by _one_ vote in the Tennessee State Legislature on
August 18 1919, but only because the youngest representative read a letter
from his mom, telling him to vote that way.
[That's a lie, of course: it succeeded by 2 votes. Someone else flipped
on seeing what the kid done did.]

_ _ _ _ _ Digression:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment
How'zat doing anyway? Have the deeply religious, conservative Black
representatives in Illinois who let it fail by _3_ votes all died off and
been replaced by slightly more progressive legislators? Note that it's
past deadline by legislative rulings, which can be modified any old time:
not by law.

_ _ _ _ _ Suggestion:
Every future posting to framgov must include at least one digression.

Thanks.

— Oded

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Charter: What if the recount affirm the vote?

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