"Drupal migration cost figures for local government"
- 10 posts by 6 authors
- Last post by Jase Wilson at 8:11pm, Nov 09, 2011
Keywords:
- Drupal
- source
- kevin
- curry
- CMS
Somewhat related is this recent article about feds moving to OSS,
especially Drupal.
http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20111014_4116.php
I particularly like the puppy analogy:
The advantages of using an open source system, Kruger said, include having
more control over your own data and content and significantly lower upfront
costs.
"Drupal is free but it's free like a puppy is free," he said, noting
ongoing maintenance and upkeep costs.
The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that manage
the transition and maintenance.
"If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
said.
especially Drupal.
http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20111014_4116.php
I particularly like the puppy analogy:
The advantages of using an open source system, Kruger said, include having
more control over your own data and content and significantly lower upfront
costs.
"Drupal is free but it's free like a puppy is free," he said, noting
ongoing maintenance and upkeep costs.
The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that manage
the transition and maintenance.
"If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
said.
On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 1:37 PM, kevin curry <<email obscured>> wrote:
> Useful discussion on this forum:
>
> http://groups.drupal.org/node/187454
>
> --
> Kevin Curry
> Virginia Beach, VA
> http://twitter.com/kmcurry
>
> Kevin Curry
> Virginia Beach
> About Kevin Curry: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1QopOcbYAJLsQNo3nWFQWQ
>
> View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2VFN8VpkCImRtEP5pYoSC6
>
> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
> publicly.
> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
> subject.
>
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
> http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that manage
> the transition and maintenance.
>
> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
> said.
These are both completely untrue. We (Bridgeborn) are building a
transparency & accountability site for a fed customer using Drupal. There
is nothing about it being open source that changes the work for the agency
one way or the other. It has involved almost zero coding. In fact, things
we wrote by hand we scrapped when we found the solution in Drupal. The
resulting product will be delivered to an office whose staff does not have
any coders. They will be trained to use the Drupal admin, which they've
already started to figure out on their own without our help.
> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that manage
> the transition and maintenance.
>
> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
> said.
These are both completely untrue. We (Bridgeborn) are building a
transparency & accountability site for a fed customer using Drupal. There
is nothing about it being open source that changes the work for the agency
one way or the other. It has involved almost zero coding. In fact, things
we wrote by hand we scrapped when we found the solution in Drupal. The
resulting product will be delivered to an office whose staff does not have
any coders. They will be trained to use the Drupal admin, which they've
already started to figure out on their own without our help.
On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Kevin Koehler <<email obscured>> wrote:
> Somewhat related is this recent article about feds moving to OSS,
> especially Drupal.
> http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20111014_4116.php
>
> I particularly like the puppy analogy:
>
> The advantages of using an open source system, Kruger said, include having
> more control over your own data and content and significantly lower upfront
> costs.
>
> "Drupal is free but it's free like a puppy is free," he said, noting
> ongoing maintenance and upkeep costs.
>
> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that manage
> the transition and maintenance.
>
> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
> said.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 1:37 PM, kevin curry <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> > Useful discussion on this forum:
> >
> > http://groups.drupal.org/node/187454
> >
> > --
> > Kevin Curry
> > Virginia Beach, VA
> > http://twitter.com/kmcurry
> >
> > Kevin Curry
> > Virginia Beach
> > About Kevin Curry:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1QopOcbYAJLsQNo3nWFQWQ
> >
> > View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2VFN8VpkCImRtEP5pYoSC6
> >
> > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
> > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
> >
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
> > publicly.
> > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
> > subject.
> >
> > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
> > http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
>
> Kevin Koehler
>
> About Kevin Koehler:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/6GuE5l0aJ9KyqvzEvV1wMz
>
> View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/64PHqWezOllFoVizsCwrVJ
>
> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
> publicly.
> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
> subject.
>
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
> http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
--
Kevin Curry
Virginia Beach, VA
http://twitter.com/kmcurry
Furthermore, we will deliver 89 days from project start. Only about 1/2 of
the schedule is spent on development. The rest will be spent on testing,
training, and tweaking.
We're also migrating http://hseep.dhs.gov to Drupal and expect the project
to take less than 90 days.
I understand why there is a Cult of Drupal now. I'm drank the Kool Aid.
On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 7:04 PM, kevin curry <<email obscured>> wrote:
> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
>> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that
>> manage
>> the transition and maintenance.
>>
>> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
>> said.
>
>
> These are both completely untrue. We (Bridgeborn) are building a
> transparency & accountability site for a fed customer using Drupal. There
> is nothing about it being open source that changes the work for the agency
> one way or the other. It has involved almost zero coding. In fact, things
> we wrote by hand we scrapped when we found the solution in Drupal. The
> resulting product will be delivered to an office whose staff does not have
> any coders. They will be trained to use the Drupal admin, which they've
> already started to figure out on their own without our help.
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Kevin Koehler <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
>> Somewhat related is this recent article about feds moving to OSS,
>> especially Drupal.
>> http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20111014_4116.php
>>
>> I particularly like the puppy analogy:
>>
>> The advantages of using an open source system, Kruger said, include having
>> more control over your own data and content and significantly lower
>> upfront
>> costs.
>>
>> "Drupal is free but it's free like a puppy is free," he said, noting
>> ongoing maintenance and upkeep costs.
>>
>> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
>> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that
>> manage
>> the transition and maintenance.
>>
>> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
>> said.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 1:37 PM, kevin curry <<email obscured>> wrote:
>>
>> > Useful discussion on this forum:
>> >
>> > http://groups.drupal.org/node/187454
>> >
>> > --
>> > Kevin Curry
>> > Virginia Beach, VA
>> > http://twitter.com/kmcurry
>> >
>> > Kevin Curry
>> > Virginia Beach
>> > About Kevin Curry:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1QopOcbYAJLsQNo3nWFQWQ
>> >
>> > View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
>> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2VFN8VpkCImRtEP5pYoSC6
>> >
>> > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
>> > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>> >
>> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> > To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
>> > publicly.
>> > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
>> > subject.
>> >
>> > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
>> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
>> > http://OnlineGroups.Net
>> >
>>
>> Kevin Koehler
>>
>> About Kevin Koehler:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/6GuE5l0aJ9KyqvzEvV1wMz
>>
>> View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/64PHqWezOllFoVizsCwrVJ
>>
>> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
>> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>>
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
>> publicly.
>> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
>> subject.
>>
>> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
>> http://OnlineGroups.Net
the schedule is spent on development. The rest will be spent on testing,
training, and tweaking.
We're also migrating http://hseep.dhs.gov to Drupal and expect the project
to take less than 90 days.
I understand why there is a Cult of Drupal now. I'm drank the Kool Aid.
On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 7:04 PM, kevin curry <<email obscured>> wrote:
> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
>> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that
>> manage
>> the transition and maintenance.
>>
>> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
>> said.
>
>
> These are both completely untrue. We (Bridgeborn) are building a
> transparency & accountability site for a fed customer using Drupal. There
> is nothing about it being open source that changes the work for the agency
> one way or the other. It has involved almost zero coding. In fact, things
> we wrote by hand we scrapped when we found the solution in Drupal. The
> resulting product will be delivered to an office whose staff does not have
> any coders. They will be trained to use the Drupal admin, which they've
> already started to figure out on their own without our help.
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Kevin Koehler <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
>> Somewhat related is this recent article about feds moving to OSS,
>> especially Drupal.
>> http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20111014_4116.php
>>
>> I particularly like the puppy analogy:
>>
>> The advantages of using an open source system, Kruger said, include having
>> more control over your own data and content and significantly lower
>> upfront
>> costs.
>>
>> "Drupal is free but it's free like a puppy is free," he said, noting
>> ongoing maintenance and upkeep costs.
>>
>> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
>> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that
>> manage
>> the transition and maintenance.
>>
>> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
>> said.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 1:37 PM, kevin curry <<email obscured>> wrote:
>>
>> > Useful discussion on this forum:
>> >
>> > http://groups.drupal.org/node/187454
>> >
>> > --
>> > Kevin Curry
>> > Virginia Beach, VA
>> > http://twitter.com/kmcurry
>> >
>> > Kevin Curry
>> > Virginia Beach
>> > About Kevin Curry:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1QopOcbYAJLsQNo3nWFQWQ
>> >
>> > View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
>> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2VFN8VpkCImRtEP5pYoSC6
>> >
>> > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
>> > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>> >
>> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> > To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
>> > publicly.
>> > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
>> > subject.
>> >
>> > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
>> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
>> > http://OnlineGroups.Net
>> >
>>
>> Kevin Koehler
>>
>> About Kevin Koehler:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/6GuE5l0aJ9KyqvzEvV1wMz
>>
>> View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/64PHqWezOllFoVizsCwrVJ
>>
>> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
>> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>>
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
>> publicly.
>> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
>> subject.
>>
>> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
>> http://OnlineGroups.Net
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Curry
> Virginia Beach, VA
> http://twitter.com/kmcurry
>
--
Kevin Curry
Virginia Beach, VA
http://twitter.com/kmcurry
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Curry
> Virginia Beach, VA
> http://twitter.com/kmcurry
>
--
Kevin Curry
Virginia Beach, VA
http://twitter.com/kmcurry
While we're not as heavy on Drupal we have been developing our own and our
partners sites using Joomla for a few years now and the open-source ideas here
do NOT fit with our experience. It's incredibly fast to build with and maintain
and the output sites are far superior to that of proprietary platforms and
tools, with zero costs of capital investment, seriously easy installs if you're
on a hosted server and really powerful editing tools for our non-tech
publishers.
Drupal is more heavy lifting but more powerful as well. Both offer incredible
returns and have a huge workforce of developers and support and are
consistently brought to scale/production much faster than any other types of
development environments.
Wordpress is also approaching much of the power of these big ol CMS tools too.
And is more suitable for many clients...
Play with these tools and learn them and they’ll blow you away.
Steve Spiker (GISP)
Research & Technology Director
URBAN STRATEGIES COUNCIL
1720 Broadway, 2nd Floor | Oakland, CA 94612 (NOTE NEW ADDRESS!)
(510) 463-2880 ph | (510) 893-6657 fx
email: <email obscured> @spjika
our websites: www.urbanstrategies.org www.oakclt.org www.acreentry.org
www.benefitingbvhp.org www.alamedacountycan.org
www.oaklandafterschool.org www.infoalamedacounty.org
Working to eliminate persistent poverty by building healthy, vibrant
communities.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files
contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity
to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary,
privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.
If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or
any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and
may be unlawful. Please notify the sender, by electronic mail or telephone, of
any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any
copies.
partners sites using Joomla for a few years now and the open-source ideas here
do NOT fit with our experience. It's incredibly fast to build with and maintain
and the output sites are far superior to that of proprietary platforms and
tools, with zero costs of capital investment, seriously easy installs if you're
on a hosted server and really powerful editing tools for our non-tech
publishers.
Drupal is more heavy lifting but more powerful as well. Both offer incredible
returns and have a huge workforce of developers and support and are
consistently brought to scale/production much faster than any other types of
development environments.
Wordpress is also approaching much of the power of these big ol CMS tools too.
And is more suitable for many clients...
Play with these tools and learn them and they’ll blow you away.
Steve Spiker (GISP)
Research & Technology Director
URBAN STRATEGIES COUNCIL
1720 Broadway, 2nd Floor | Oakland, CA 94612 (NOTE NEW ADDRESS!)
(510) 463-2880 ph | (510) 893-6657 fx
email: <email obscured> @spjika
our websites: www.urbanstrategies.org www.oakclt.org www.acreentry.org
www.benefitingbvhp.org www.alamedacountycan.org
www.oaklandafterschool.org www.infoalamedacounty.org
Working to eliminate persistent poverty by building healthy, vibrant
communities.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files
contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity
to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary,
privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.
If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or
any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and
may be unlawful. Please notify the sender, by electronic mail or telephone, of
any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any
copies.
-----Original Message-----
From: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org [mailto:citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org]
On Behalf Of kevin curry
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 4:04 PM
To: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org
Subject: Re: [CityCamp Exchange] "Drupal migration cost figures for local
government"
>
> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that manage
> the transition and maintenance.
>
> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
> said.
These are both completely untrue. We (Bridgeborn) are building a
transparency & accountability site for a fed customer using Drupal. There
is nothing about it being open source that changes the work for the agency
one way or the other. It has involved almost zero coding. In fact, things
we wrote by hand we scrapped when we found the solution in Drupal. The
resulting product will be delivered to an office whose staff does not have
any coders. They will be trained to use the Drupal admin, which they've
already started to figure out on their own without our help.
On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Kevin Koehler <<email obscured>> wrote:
> Somewhat related is this recent article about feds moving to OSS,
> especially Drupal.
> http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20111014_4116.php
>
> I particularly like the puppy analogy:
>
> The advantages of using an open source system, Kruger said, include having
> more control over your own data and content and significantly lower upfront
> costs.
>
> "Drupal is free but it's free like a puppy is free," he said, noting
> ongoing maintenance and upkeep costs.
>
> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that manage
> the transition and maintenance.
>
> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
> said.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 1:37 PM, kevin curry <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> > Useful discussion on this forum:
> >
> > http://groups.drupal.org/node/187454
> >
> > --
> > Kevin Curry
> > Virginia Beach, VA
> > http://twitter.com/kmcurry
> >
> > Kevin Curry
> > Virginia Beach
> > About Kevin Curry:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1QopOcbYAJLsQNo3nWFQWQ
> >
> > View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2VFN8VpkCImRtEP5pYoSC6
> >
> > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
> > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
> >
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
> > publicly.
> > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
> > subject.
> >
> > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
> > http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
>
> Kevin Koehler
>
> About Kevin Koehler:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/6GuE5l0aJ9KyqvzEvV1wMz
>
> View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/64PHqWezOllFoVizsCwrVJ
>
> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
> publicly.
> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
> subject.
>
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
> http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
--
Kevin Curry
Virginia Beach, VA
http://twitter.com/kmcurry
Kevin Curry
Virginia Beach
About Kevin Curry: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1QopOcbYAJLsQNo3nWFQWQ
View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5c9GU7rELaJvCjYvn39wx5
Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
publicly.
To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject.
Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
http://OnlineGroups.Net
From: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org [mailto:citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org]
On Behalf Of kevin curry
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 4:04 PM
To: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org
Subject: Re: [CityCamp Exchange] "Drupal migration cost figures for local
government"
>
> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that manage
> the transition and maintenance.
>
> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
> said.
These are both completely untrue. We (Bridgeborn) are building a
transparency & accountability site for a fed customer using Drupal. There
is nothing about it being open source that changes the work for the agency
one way or the other. It has involved almost zero coding. In fact, things
we wrote by hand we scrapped when we found the solution in Drupal. The
resulting product will be delivered to an office whose staff does not have
any coders. They will be trained to use the Drupal admin, which they've
already started to figure out on their own without our help.
On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Kevin Koehler <<email obscured>> wrote:
> Somewhat related is this recent article about feds moving to OSS,
> especially Drupal.
> http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20111014_4116.php
>
> I particularly like the puppy analogy:
>
> The advantages of using an open source system, Kruger said, include having
> more control over your own data and content and significantly lower upfront
> costs.
>
> "Drupal is free but it's free like a puppy is free," he said, noting
> ongoing maintenance and upkeep costs.
>
> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that manage
> the transition and maintenance.
>
> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
> said.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 1:37 PM, kevin curry <<email obscured>> wrote:
>
> > Useful discussion on this forum:
> >
> > http://groups.drupal.org/node/187454
> >
> > --
> > Kevin Curry
> > Virginia Beach, VA
> > http://twitter.com/kmcurry
> >
> > Kevin Curry
> > Virginia Beach
> > About Kevin Curry:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1QopOcbYAJLsQNo3nWFQWQ
> >
> > View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2VFN8VpkCImRtEP5pYoSC6
> >
> > Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
> > http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
> >
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
> > publicly.
> > To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
> > subject.
> >
> > Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
> > http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
>
> Kevin Koehler
>
> About Kevin Koehler:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/6GuE5l0aJ9KyqvzEvV1wMz
>
> View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/64PHqWezOllFoVizsCwrVJ
>
> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
> publicly.
> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in
> subject.
>
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
> http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
--
Kevin Curry
Virginia Beach, VA
http://twitter.com/kmcurry
Kevin Curry
Virginia Beach
About Kevin Curry: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/1QopOcbYAJLsQNo3nWFQWQ
View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5c9GU7rELaJvCjYvn39wx5
Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
publicly.
To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject.
Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
http://OnlineGroups.Net
Fascinating conversation and a really important one to be having right now.
My response it pretty simple.
Prove it. Prove that open source is cheaper. Prove that it is more effective.
Prove that the experience is better for people beyond the geek or geek-curious
community. Without evidence - really real evidence - that over the life-cycle
of a project the cost is lower, the outcomes higher and the experience better
for all, evangelism rings hollow.
I've been making myself unpopular around this line in the Open Data community
recently as open data is at a similar crossroads. As someone who spends most of
his time persuading senior government officials of the benefits of these new
technologies and ways of working, I often find myself grasping for meaningful
examples of well costed out, *truthful* accounts of cost and outcomes (not just
tech input, but training, consultancy, in house team development, recruitment
of open source teams within government etc etc).
And excuse the cynicism, but show me a large supplier who is adopting open
source because it's the right thing to do rather than increasing (or at least)
maintaining their profit margin.
I say this as someone who runs a small company who recently almost turned to
the .Net darkside to satisfy clients more comfortable in that world than the
Rails open source world we currently develop in. But we resisted and stuck with
Rails because we believe in it. We did because open source is the future. But
we also did it knowing it will cost us more in the short-term if not longer and
therefore impact on our bottom line potentially.
There are a number of us doing similar, looking to win battles knowing that
this is the right path to take. But we are under no illusions that it is not a
simple "open source is better and cheaper and more effective" argument. We all
need to prove it. Fast.
My response it pretty simple.
Prove it. Prove that open source is cheaper. Prove that it is more effective.
Prove that the experience is better for people beyond the geek or geek-curious
community. Without evidence - really real evidence - that over the life-cycle
of a project the cost is lower, the outcomes higher and the experience better
for all, evangelism rings hollow.
I've been making myself unpopular around this line in the Open Data community
recently as open data is at a similar crossroads. As someone who spends most of
his time persuading senior government officials of the benefits of these new
technologies and ways of working, I often find myself grasping for meaningful
examples of well costed out, *truthful* accounts of cost and outcomes (not just
tech input, but training, consultancy, in house team development, recruitment
of open source teams within government etc etc).
And excuse the cynicism, but show me a large supplier who is adopting open
source because it's the right thing to do rather than increasing (or at least)
maintaining their profit margin.
I say this as someone who runs a small company who recently almost turned to
the .Net darkside to satisfy clients more comfortable in that world than the
Rails open source world we currently develop in. But we resisted and stuck with
Rails because we believe in it. We did because open source is the future. But
we also did it knowing it will cost us more in the short-term if not longer and
therefore impact on our bottom line potentially.
There are a number of us doing similar, looking to win battles knowing that
this is the right path to take. But we are under no illusions that it is not a
simple "open source is better and cheaper and more effective" argument. We all
need to prove it. Fast.
To reiterate my own experience in the original context: the quote is wrong.
Those downsides do not exist in open source CMS solutions, like Drupal.
Moreover, they do not exist because of open source, which is what is implied.
(The puppy analogy is SPOT ON, however. Your customer is going to have to take
care of what you build, or pay somone to take care of it.)
Dom, I think you've raised different but related issues. Both Brett, on the
Drupal group thread, and I tried to say that there isn't necessarily cause &
effect between open source and better, cheaper, more effective. It depends on
the people using and supporting the technology. When we go into a job we have
to look at the prevalent IT environment, too. In this case, our client
specified a LAMPP stack and we established that the IT support division could
provide a turnkey solution for replicating Drupal (and preferred it). Other
customers of ours have SharePoint across their enterprise. We're not going to
change that if there isn't a major forcing function. We can still achieve the
same results. Go to .Net if it helps your business. Some shops specialize in a
platform. Some don't. This is not a crusade anyone needs to fight, by the way.
>From both a technology & money perspective, a principal point everyone needs
to understand is that it is first and foremost always best to build off of a
robust CMS than not. If you don't have infrastructure (Manor, DeLeon) or your
infrastructure doesn't include on a robust CMS (hseep.dhs.gov) then evolve or
perish. Of course there are exceptions, but we are talking government here.
Tech-wise, there are too many widgets and modules and Web parts to reinvent.
User expectation is high and won't wait for you. Money-wise, it's never better,
cheaper, or more effective to code against your clients' environments.
For my own part, I don't need proof. Experience is proof. I've seen the bottom
line. I think there are plenty of government orgs out there that simply can't
get it done if it's not cheap and easy to stand up something that users can
mostly maintain on their own. That's what a platform does. If it's me and I'm
starting from the ground up then I'm choosing XAMPP/LAMMP & Drupal because it's
better, cheaper & more effective than anything else I've experienced as a
developer and a project manager. 89 days is a strong, replicable metric.
By they way, you don't see Web hosts like GoDaddy offering SharePoint. But they
offer Drupal, Joomla and WordPress. I don't know about govs, but that means a
lot of businesses are going open source no matter what anyone thinks.
Those downsides do not exist in open source CMS solutions, like Drupal.
Moreover, they do not exist because of open source, which is what is implied.
(The puppy analogy is SPOT ON, however. Your customer is going to have to take
care of what you build, or pay somone to take care of it.)
Dom, I think you've raised different but related issues. Both Brett, on the
Drupal group thread, and I tried to say that there isn't necessarily cause &
effect between open source and better, cheaper, more effective. It depends on
the people using and supporting the technology. When we go into a job we have
to look at the prevalent IT environment, too. In this case, our client
specified a LAMPP stack and we established that the IT support division could
provide a turnkey solution for replicating Drupal (and preferred it). Other
customers of ours have SharePoint across their enterprise. We're not going to
change that if there isn't a major forcing function. We can still achieve the
same results. Go to .Net if it helps your business. Some shops specialize in a
platform. Some don't. This is not a crusade anyone needs to fight, by the way.
>From both a technology & money perspective, a principal point everyone needs
to understand is that it is first and foremost always best to build off of a
robust CMS than not. If you don't have infrastructure (Manor, DeLeon) or your
infrastructure doesn't include on a robust CMS (hseep.dhs.gov) then evolve or
perish. Of course there are exceptions, but we are talking government here.
Tech-wise, there are too many widgets and modules and Web parts to reinvent.
User expectation is high and won't wait for you. Money-wise, it's never better,
cheaper, or more effective to code against your clients' environments.
For my own part, I don't need proof. Experience is proof. I've seen the bottom
line. I think there are plenty of government orgs out there that simply can't
get it done if it's not cheap and easy to stand up something that users can
mostly maintain on their own. That's what a platform does. If it's me and I'm
starting from the ground up then I'm choosing XAMPP/LAMMP & Drupal because it's
better, cheaper & more effective than anything else I've experienced as a
developer and a project manager. 89 days is a strong, replicable metric.
By they way, you don't see Web hosts like GoDaddy offering SharePoint. But they
offer Drupal, Joomla and WordPress. I don't know about govs, but that means a
lot of businesses are going open source no matter what anyone thinks.
My experience on smaller scales would be a partial example of cost
effectiveness:
· Development environment/platform= $0 for a powerful CMS platform
· Hosting: internal option- very small server load and no server
software costs for the LAMP stack
· Hosting: external- $100 a year for an easy install via Godaddy et al,
zero bandwidth costs so far (maybe we just small fry)
· Buildout: incredible base templates to work from, plethora of fast,
affordable designers to roll your own, site layout and design is incredibly
intuitive and FAST- saving us easily half the time to build the site core.
· Features: enormous variety of free GPL add-ons for very powerful
functionality at zero capital cost compared to buying solutions for each
function using the proprietary model. Also great, modest cost commercial
add-ins available.
· Ongoing publishing- features and editing systems are far easier to
use than any other solutions I've built on saving real dollars in distributing
the publishing roles and no need for other software to do web editing for us or
the clients.
· Customer satisfaction: ENORMOUS. To quantify that in dollar savings-
I've never met a tech person or a company manager who expressed happiness or
joy with their proprietary CMS system. Never. But they love their open source
CMS sites.
That last one just about trumps any of the actual costs savings for me too. ;-)
Then there’s the excitement our staff have about using the open source tools-
that is money for any company.
Thanks for the challenge- it’s good to ask these questions, and to discuss them
without koolaid!
Steve Spiker (GISP)
Research & Technology Director
URBAN STRATEGIES COUNCIL
1720 Broadway, 2nd Floor | Oakland, CA 94612 (NOTE NEW ADDRESS!)
(510) 463-2880 ph | (510) 893-6657 fx
email: <email obscured> @spjika
our websites: www.urbanstrategies.org www.oakclt.org www.acreentry.org
www.benefitingbvhp.org www.alamedacountycan.org
www.oaklandafterschool.org www.infoalamedacounty.org
Working to eliminate persistent poverty by building healthy, vibrant
communities.
effectiveness:
· Development environment/platform= $0 for a powerful CMS platform
· Hosting: internal option- very small server load and no server
software costs for the LAMP stack
· Hosting: external- $100 a year for an easy install via Godaddy et al,
zero bandwidth costs so far (maybe we just small fry)
· Buildout: incredible base templates to work from, plethora of fast,
affordable designers to roll your own, site layout and design is incredibly
intuitive and FAST- saving us easily half the time to build the site core.
· Features: enormous variety of free GPL add-ons for very powerful
functionality at zero capital cost compared to buying solutions for each
function using the proprietary model. Also great, modest cost commercial
add-ins available.
· Ongoing publishing- features and editing systems are far easier to
use than any other solutions I've built on saving real dollars in distributing
the publishing roles and no need for other software to do web editing for us or
the clients.
· Customer satisfaction: ENORMOUS. To quantify that in dollar savings-
I've never met a tech person or a company manager who expressed happiness or
joy with their proprietary CMS system. Never. But they love their open source
CMS sites.
That last one just about trumps any of the actual costs savings for me too. ;-)
Then there’s the excitement our staff have about using the open source tools-
that is money for any company.
Thanks for the challenge- it’s good to ask these questions, and to discuss them
without koolaid!
Steve Spiker (GISP)
Research & Technology Director
URBAN STRATEGIES COUNCIL
1720 Broadway, 2nd Floor | Oakland, CA 94612 (NOTE NEW ADDRESS!)
(510) 463-2880 ph | (510) 893-6657 fx
email: <email obscured> @spjika
our websites: www.urbanstrategies.org www.oakclt.org www.acreentry.org
www.benefitingbvhp.org www.alamedacountycan.org
www.oaklandafterschool.org www.infoalamedacounty.org
Working to eliminate persistent poverty by building healthy, vibrant
communities.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files
contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity
to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary,
privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.
If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or
any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and
may be unlawful. Please notify the sender, by electronic mail or telephone, of
any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any
copies.
contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity
to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary,
privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.
If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or
any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and
may be unlawful. Please notify the sender, by electronic mail or telephone, of
any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any
copies.
Kevin Koehler wrote:
> Somewhat related is this recent article about feds moving to OSS,
> especially Drupal.
> http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20111014_4116.php
>
> I particularly like the puppy analogy:
>
> The advantages of using an open source system, Kruger said, include having
> more control over your own data and content and significantly lower upfront
> costs.
>
> "Drupal is free but it's free like a puppy is free," he said, noting
> ongoing maintenance and upkeep costs.
>
> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that manage
> the transition and maintenance.
>
> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
> said.
>
Wow. That's pure FUD. Just because something is open source doesn't mean
your project costs go to zero. In my experience with opensource.com,
which runs on Drupal, we still pay typical costs like hosting and we pay
for Enterprise support from Acquia. This allows us to focus on our
community and content as opposed to getting into the web development
business--which we could spent a tremendous amount of time on.
We did hire Acquia partners (palantir.net to be exact) to theme our site
and implement the desired functionality. I think that because Drupal is
open source, the platform is more robust and has more add-ons because of
the large, active community. We have yet to write a single line of code
for opensource.com, however, our support contract (which any CMS vendor
should provide) does maintenance on the site on our behalf. In fact,
most of the stuff that we want to do is provided out of the box or with
an additional module.
In the larger picture... Someone mentioned to me that a study by
Coverity established pretty definitively, that robust open source
software produces fewer errors. I haven't been able to cite this myself,
but believe this is true. Bugs are fixed faster and there are fewer of
them because the open source development model allows more participation
and more errors are caught before commits are made.
Open source, contractually, provides more agility and options for a
given deployment. That's not disputable. Do you want to have access to
the next SELinux or real-time kernel? Then you need to use open source.
I don't think this comes down to a matter of coding, it comes down to
how well you know the software...or how well you want to become an
expert in the software. This goes for both open and closed solutions.
Jason
> Somewhat related is this recent article about feds moving to OSS,
> especially Drupal.
> http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20111014_4116.php
>
> I particularly like the puppy analogy:
>
> The advantages of using an open source system, Kruger said, include having
> more control over your own data and content and significantly lower upfront
> costs.
>
> "Drupal is free but it's free like a puppy is free," he said, noting
> ongoing maintenance and upkeep costs.
>
> The downside to an open source CMS is that it requires significantly more
> work on the agency end, either by in-house coders or by vendors that manage
> the transition and maintenance.
>
> "If you don't want to do any coding, this isn't the solution for you," he
> said.
>
Wow. That's pure FUD. Just because something is open source doesn't mean
your project costs go to zero. In my experience with opensource.com,
which runs on Drupal, we still pay typical costs like hosting and we pay
for Enterprise support from Acquia. This allows us to focus on our
community and content as opposed to getting into the web development
business--which we could spent a tremendous amount of time on.
We did hire Acquia partners (palantir.net to be exact) to theme our site
and implement the desired functionality. I think that because Drupal is
open source, the platform is more robust and has more add-ons because of
the large, active community. We have yet to write a single line of code
for opensource.com, however, our support contract (which any CMS vendor
should provide) does maintenance on the site on our behalf. In fact,
most of the stuff that we want to do is provided out of the box or with
an additional module.
In the larger picture... Someone mentioned to me that a study by
Coverity established pretty definitively, that robust open source
software produces fewer errors. I haven't been able to cite this myself,
but believe this is true. Bugs are fixed faster and there are fewer of
them because the open source development model allows more participation
and more errors are caught before commits are made.
Open source, contractually, provides more agility and options for a
given deployment. That's not disputable. Do you want to have access to
the next SELinux or real-time kernel? Then you need to use open source.
I don't think this comes down to a matter of coding, it comes down to
how well you know the software...or how well you want to become an
expert in the software. This goes for both open and closed solutions.
Jason
--
Jason Hibbets, RHCSA :: Twitter: @jhibbets
Project Manager, Red Hat :: Raleigh, NC
Open source is changing the world -- http://opensource.com
Jason Hibbets, RHCSA :: Twitter: @jhibbets
Project Manager, Red Hat :: Raleigh, NC
Open source is changing the world -- http://opensource.com
@dominiccampbell thank you for playing devil's advocate and for asking us to
think before we drink.
While usage stats cannot by themselves prove any of the points you raised,
we're able to look at the stats and say with confidence that most of the public
web runs on open source. We can infer that there must be a compelling set of
reasons why most of the world's top sites choose overwhelmingly to run on open
technology stacks:
http://w3techs.com/technologies
Some abstracted highlights from the November 2011 reports:
* Ruby, PHP, Perl and Python together power 4 out of 5 of the top 1,000,000
sites.
* Open source CMS projects power 9 out of 10 CMS-backed sites.
* Proprietary web servers power 1 out 5 of the top 1,000,000 sites.
Many of the largest sites included in this ongoing survey have practically
limitless resources to spend on IT, yet they choose to run on open stacks. The
CTOs of such organizations would probably be able to offer the proof you sought
in your message. Given a choice between proprietary and open in situations
where performance, reliability, efficiency and cost are primary drivers, yet IT
budget is a non-decisive factor, they choose open source and can probably give
you excellent reasons why.
Thank you again for looking at the matter from a critical perspective, it is
appreciated.
Jase Wilson
@luminopolis
On Nov 8, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Steve Spiker wrote:
> My experience on smaller scales would be a partial example of cost
effectiveness:
>
> · Development environment/platform= $0 for a powerful CMS platform
>
> · Hosting: internal option- very small server load and no server
software costs for the LAMP stack
>
> · Hosting: external- $100 a year for an easy install via Godaddy et
al, zero bandwidth costs so far (maybe we just small fry)
>
> · Buildout: incredible base templates to work from, plethora of fast,
affordable designers to roll your own, site layout and design is incredibly
intuitive and FAST- saving us easily half the time to build the site core.
>
> · Features: enormous variety of free GPL add-ons for very powerful
functionality at zero capital cost compared to buying solutions for each
function using the proprietary model. Also great, modest cost commercial
add-ins available.
>
> · Ongoing publishing- features and editing systems are far easier to
use than any other solutions I've built on saving real dollars in distributing
the publishing roles and no need for other software to do web editing for us or
the clients.
>
> · Customer satisfaction: ENORMOUS. To quantify that in dollar
savings- I've never met a tech person or a company manager who expressed
happiness or joy with their proprietary CMS system. Never. But they love their
open source CMS sites.
>
>
>
> That last one just about trumps any of the actual costs savings for me too.
;-)
>
>
>
> Then there’s the excitement our staff have about using the open source tools-
that is money for any company.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the challenge- it’s good to ask these questions, and to discuss
them without koolaid!
>
>
>
> Steve Spiker (GISP)
>
> Research & Technology Director
>
> URBAN STRATEGIES COUNCIL
>
> 1720 Broadway, 2nd Floor | Oakland, CA 94612 (NOTE NEW ADDRESS!)
>
> (510) 463-2880 ph | (510) 893-6657 fx
>
> email: <email obscured> @spjika
>
> our websites: www.urbanstrategies.org www.oakclt.org www.acreentry.org
>
> www.benefitingbvhp.org www.alamedacountycan.org
>
> www.oaklandafterschool.org www.infoalamedacounty.org
>
>
>
> Working to eliminate persistent poverty by building healthy, vibrant
communities.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files
contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity
to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary,
privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.
If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or
any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and
may be unlawful. Please notify the sender, by electronic mail or telephone, of
any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any
copies.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org
[mailto:citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org] On Behalf Of @dominiccampbell
> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 5:18 PM
> To: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org
> Subject: Re: [CityCamp Exchange] "Drupal migration cost figures for local
government"
>
>
>
> Fascinating conversation and a really important one to be having right now.
>
>
>
> My response it pretty simple.
>
>
>
> Prove it. Prove that open source is cheaper. Prove that it is more effective.
Prove that the experience is better for people beyond the geek or geek-curious
community. Without evidence - really real evidence - that over the life-cycle
of a project the cost is lower, the outcomes higher and the experience better
for all, evangelism rings hollow.
>
>
>
> I've been making myself unpopular around this line in the Open Data community
recently as open data is at a similar crossroads. As someone who spends most of
his time persuading senior government officials of the benefits of these new
technologies and ways of working, I often find myself grasping for meaningful
examples of well costed out, *truthful* accounts of cost and outcomes (not just
tech input, but training, consultancy, in house team development, recruitment
of open source teams within government etc etc).
>
>
>
> And excuse the cynicism, but show me a large supplier who is adopting open
source because it's the right thing to do rather than increasing (or at least)
maintaining their profit margin.
>
>
>
> I say this as someone who runs a small company who recently almost turned to
the .Net darkside to satisfy clients more comfortable in that world than the
Rails open source world we currently develop in. But we resisted and stuck with
Rails because we believe in it. We did because open source is the future. But
we also did it knowing it will cost us more in the short-term if not longer and
therefore impact on our bottom line potentially.
>
>
>
> There are a number of us doing similar, looking to win battles knowing that
this is the right path to take. But we are under no illusions that it is not a
simple "open source is better and cheaper and more effective" argument. We all
need to prove it. Fast.
>
> Dominic Campbell
>
>
>
> About @dominiccampbell: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/yw6c89YkZJpW37eq0RgVf
>
>
>
> View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
>
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6wYSI69BBiEbC5Qt2xiMrC
>
>
>
> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
>
> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
publicly.
>
> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject.
>
>
>
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
> Steve Spiker
>
> About Spike: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/4zcA5vVB1Gtofvjm70YleL
>
> View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/8Sntlwz69KIb25ENGAHA7
>
> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
publicly.
> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject.
>
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
http://OnlineGroups.Net
think before we drink.
While usage stats cannot by themselves prove any of the points you raised,
we're able to look at the stats and say with confidence that most of the public
web runs on open source. We can infer that there must be a compelling set of
reasons why most of the world's top sites choose overwhelmingly to run on open
technology stacks:
http://w3techs.com/technologies
Some abstracted highlights from the November 2011 reports:
* Ruby, PHP, Perl and Python together power 4 out of 5 of the top 1,000,000
sites.
* Open source CMS projects power 9 out of 10 CMS-backed sites.
* Proprietary web servers power 1 out 5 of the top 1,000,000 sites.
Many of the largest sites included in this ongoing survey have practically
limitless resources to spend on IT, yet they choose to run on open stacks. The
CTOs of such organizations would probably be able to offer the proof you sought
in your message. Given a choice between proprietary and open in situations
where performance, reliability, efficiency and cost are primary drivers, yet IT
budget is a non-decisive factor, they choose open source and can probably give
you excellent reasons why.
Thank you again for looking at the matter from a critical perspective, it is
appreciated.
Jase Wilson
@luminopolis
On Nov 8, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Steve Spiker wrote:
> My experience on smaller scales would be a partial example of cost
effectiveness:
>
> · Development environment/platform= $0 for a powerful CMS platform
>
> · Hosting: internal option- very small server load and no server
software costs for the LAMP stack
>
> · Hosting: external- $100 a year for an easy install via Godaddy et
al, zero bandwidth costs so far (maybe we just small fry)
>
> · Buildout: incredible base templates to work from, plethora of fast,
affordable designers to roll your own, site layout and design is incredibly
intuitive and FAST- saving us easily half the time to build the site core.
>
> · Features: enormous variety of free GPL add-ons for very powerful
functionality at zero capital cost compared to buying solutions for each
function using the proprietary model. Also great, modest cost commercial
add-ins available.
>
> · Ongoing publishing- features and editing systems are far easier to
use than any other solutions I've built on saving real dollars in distributing
the publishing roles and no need for other software to do web editing for us or
the clients.
>
> · Customer satisfaction: ENORMOUS. To quantify that in dollar
savings- I've never met a tech person or a company manager who expressed
happiness or joy with their proprietary CMS system. Never. But they love their
open source CMS sites.
>
>
>
> That last one just about trumps any of the actual costs savings for me too.
;-)
>
>
>
> Then there’s the excitement our staff have about using the open source tools-
that is money for any company.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the challenge- it’s good to ask these questions, and to discuss
them without koolaid!
>
>
>
> Steve Spiker (GISP)
>
> Research & Technology Director
>
> URBAN STRATEGIES COUNCIL
>
> 1720 Broadway, 2nd Floor | Oakland, CA 94612 (NOTE NEW ADDRESS!)
>
> (510) 463-2880 ph | (510) 893-6657 fx
>
> email: <email obscured> @spjika
>
> our websites: www.urbanstrategies.org www.oakclt.org www.acreentry.org
>
> www.benefitingbvhp.org www.alamedacountycan.org
>
> www.oaklandafterschool.org www.infoalamedacounty.org
>
>
>
> Working to eliminate persistent poverty by building healthy, vibrant
communities.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files
contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity
to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary,
privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.
If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or
any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and
may be unlawful. Please notify the sender, by electronic mail or telephone, of
any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any
copies.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org
[mailto:citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org] On Behalf Of @dominiccampbell
> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 5:18 PM
> To: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org
> Subject: Re: [CityCamp Exchange] "Drupal migration cost figures for local
government"
>
>
>
> Fascinating conversation and a really important one to be having right now.
>
>
>
> My response it pretty simple.
>
>
>
> Prove it. Prove that open source is cheaper. Prove that it is more effective.
Prove that the experience is better for people beyond the geek or geek-curious
community. Without evidence - really real evidence - that over the life-cycle
of a project the cost is lower, the outcomes higher and the experience better
for all, evangelism rings hollow.
>
>
>
> I've been making myself unpopular around this line in the Open Data community
recently as open data is at a similar crossroads. As someone who spends most of
his time persuading senior government officials of the benefits of these new
technologies and ways of working, I often find myself grasping for meaningful
examples of well costed out, *truthful* accounts of cost and outcomes (not just
tech input, but training, consultancy, in house team development, recruitment
of open source teams within government etc etc).
>
>
>
> And excuse the cynicism, but show me a large supplier who is adopting open
source because it's the right thing to do rather than increasing (or at least)
maintaining their profit margin.
>
>
>
> I say this as someone who runs a small company who recently almost turned to
the .Net darkside to satisfy clients more comfortable in that world than the
Rails open source world we currently develop in. But we resisted and stuck with
Rails because we believe in it. We did because open source is the future. But
we also did it knowing it will cost us more in the short-term if not longer and
therefore impact on our bottom line potentially.
>
>
>
> There are a number of us doing similar, looking to win battles knowing that
this is the right path to take. But we are under no illusions that it is not a
simple "open source is better and cheaper and more effective" argument. We all
need to prove it. Fast.
>
> Dominic Campbell
>
>
>
> About @dominiccampbell: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/yw6c89YkZJpW37eq0RgVf
>
>
>
> View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
>
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6wYSI69BBiEbC5Qt2xiMrC
>
>
>
> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
>
> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
publicly.
>
> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject.
>
>
>
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
> Steve Spiker
>
> About Spike: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/4zcA5vVB1Gtofvjm70YleL
>
> View full topic, share on Facebook and more:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/8Sntlwz69KIb25ENGAHA7
>
> Special Feedback - Are the new forum rules working for you?
> http://blog.e-democracy.org/posts/1299
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> To post: citycamp@forums.e-democracy.org or "Reply-to-All" to comment
publicly.
> To leave: Put "unsubscribe" - or for digest write "digest on" - in subject.
>
> Forum Home: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/citycamp
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Need help? http://e-democracy.org/support Hosting thanks:
http://OnlineGroups.Net
Hide the post
Loading…