From:
Tony greenstein
Date:
2007 Dec 30 03:42 UTC
Short link
Some people may have seen an article in this weekend's Argus newspaper on a
forthcoming meeting in Brighton at which Gilad Atzmon is speaking.
For those who have never heard of him, Atzmon is a well-known jazz player
(BBC record of the year 2003) and also a dedicated anti-Semite. Jean Calder's
article is excellent because it makes the point that one effect of accusing all
supporters of the Palestinians and anti-Zionists of anti-Semitism is that you
cheapen the currency and make it difficult for people to discern the real
thing.
Calder has been an outspoken supporter of EDO, Omar Degayes, anti-war and the
Palestinians so she can't be accused of taking a Zionist position on the
question of Palestine or succumbing to the normal Zionist abuse.
Atzmon, like David Icke, is a true believer in conspiracy theories,
especially of the Jewish kind. He has supported a variety of holocaust deniers
and has come close to the position himself.
When Icke tried to speak in Brighton, many years ago, we stopped his meeting
taking place. The intention this time around is not to stop the meeting but
highlight Atzmon's pernicious views which, in their attempt to blame 'Jews' let
western imperialism off the hook for Israel's actions
A picket is being organised 1/2 hour before the meeting. In view of recent
events regarding their accusations of 'anti-Semitism' against demonstrators
against Israel's bombing of Lebanon, and the complaints which the IPCC upheld
against them, I suspect the Police will be in some difficulty.
Organised by Brighton Jews Against Zionism, Brighton & Hove Unemployed
Workers Centre and supported by Sussex Action for Peace
Tony Greenstein
>>Come and hear
Gilad Atzmon speak about The Primacy of the Ear - The Road from Music to
Ethics
An alternative take on the Israeli Palestinian conflict and peace activism in
general 7.30 p.m., Monday 7th January 2007 at the Roundhill Room, Brighthelm
Centre, North Road, Brighton Gilad Atzmon is a jazz musician, author and
antizionist. He was born a secular Israeli Jew in Tel Aviv and trained at the
Rubin Academy of Music in Jerusalem. He then studied philosophy at Tel Aviv
University and later at Essex University before moving to London at the age of
thirty-two. Atzmon has been accused of antisemitism, but responds by
questioning the concept itself: "Because antisemite is an empty signifier, no
one actually can be an antisemite and this includes me of course. In short you
are either a racist, which I am not, or have an ideological disagreement with
zionism, which I have." He describes himself as a Hebrew-speaking Palestinian.
In this talk, which will be illustrated with live performance, he will describe
his encounter with Arabic music, and where it led him.
There is no charge for this event
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
From:
Tony Cook
Date:
2007 Dec 30 17:28 UTC
Short link
Tony
I'm a little confused by this message. Could you run it by us again?
On the one hand:
Gilad Atzmon has been accused of antisemitism, but responds by
questioning the concept itself: "Because antisemite is an empty
signifier, no one actually can be an antisemite and this includes me
of course. In short you are either a racist, which I am not, or have
an ideological disagreement with zionism, which I have."
This would appear to make him a comrade in arms, on the side of reason
rather than prejudice, a position not too dissimilar to your own vis a
vis the upheld complaint against CS Moore?
On the other hand:
'Gilad Atzmon, like David Icke, has supported a variety of holocaust
deniers and has come close to the position himself."
If I'm to be persuaded to join your picket line I'd need to know what
this means. Does he espouse views that question the holocaust or is
this a case of guilt through association i.e. the appallingly
charismatic David Icke?
Tony C
From:
Tony greenstein
Date:
2007 Dec 31 00:20 UTC
Short link
Tony,
I'm not sure that Ickes is charismatic, but maybe I missed something when he
was a football commentator!
Yes Atzmon denies there is any such thing as an anti-Semite, which is
convenient because it means that nothing he says or does can be classified as
anti-Semitic! However it is a nonsense position. If you are an anti-Jewish
racist then you are anti-Semitic. The question is whether or not Atzmon, who
classifies himself as an 'ex-Jew' and is believed to have converted to
Christianity, does or does not advocate positions which are anti-Semitic.
The citations from the leaflet below make it clear that Atzmon is a signed up
member of the Jewish conspiracy theory outfit. He is not entirely logical,
indeed lack of logic is one of his hallmarks so on the one hand he says Jews
should stand up and be counted vs Israel and on the other he says that when
they do they are nothing but ethnic racial activists. For example he says in
his essay 'On anti-Semitism' that:
If Israel is the state of the Jewish people and the Jewish people themselves
do not stand up collectively against the crimes that are committed on their
behalf, then every Jewish person, Jewish symbol and Jewish object becomes an
Israeli interest and a potential terrorist target. It is up to the Jewish
people to take a stand against their Jewish state and to disassociate
themselves from their zealous national movement.
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/onanti.html
Yet in his essay 'On the dialectic of the negation' he attacks Jews in groups
that support the Palestinians, like Jews Against Zionism and Jews for Justice
for the Palestinians:
Occasionally I end up asking myself what stands at the core of this racially
orientated separatist peace-loving endeavour.
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/Dialectic.htm
Most of the quotes from the leaflet below demonstrate in my opinion that he
is deeply racist and anti-Semitic.
Atzmon does indeed claim to be an anti-Zionist, but that was the point that
Jean Calder made at the beginning of her article. Although the accusation that
supporters of the Palestinians are anti-Semitic is usually untrue, there are
minority of cases where that is the case. It is the classic case of crying
wolf. I would add that Atzmon is, in my opinion, regardless of how he sees
himself, an anti-Zionist as I see anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism as mutually
contradictory.
No I haven't accused Atzmon of guilt by association. I haven't the time or
space to go into it here, but he has rallied to the defence of people who are
open holocaust deniers on the fringes of the Palestine solidarity movement, in
particular Israel Shamir and Paul Eisen (who you can google) and in the quotes
below from his 'Esther' essay he in essence argues that their view is equally
valid with those who believe there were extermination camps, gas chambers etc.
if you have any queries get back to me and maybe chat about it sometime.
cheers
Tony
Tony Cook <email obscured>> wrote:
Tony
I'm a little confused by this message. Could you run it by us again?
On the one hand:
Gilad Atzmon has been accused of antisemitism, but responds by questioning the
concept itself: "Because antisemite is an empty signifier, no one actually can
be an antisemite and this includes me of course. In short you are either a
racist, which I am not, or have an ideological disagreement with zionism, which
I have."
This would appear to make him a comrade in arms, on the side of reason rather
than prejudice, a position not too dissimilar to your own vis a vis the upheld
complaint against CS Moore?
On the other hand:
'Gilad Atzmon, like David Icke, has supported a variety of holocaust deniers
and has come close to the position himself."
If I'm to be persuaded to join your picket line I'd need to know what this
means. Does he espouse views that question the holocaust or is this a case of
guilt through association i.e. the appallingly charismatic David Icke?
Tony C
Tony Cook
>>LEAFLET
Gilad Atzmon is not just a well-known jazz player he is also a well-known
anti-Semite. He is a believer in the world Jewish conspiracy theory and
supports and defends Holocaust Deniers. He claims to be a supporter of the
Palestinians but in reality he is, like most anti-Semites a Zionist.
Atzmon first came to prominence when he published an article The Protocols of
the Elders of London Although Atzmon denies that he is a holocaust denier all
the evidence suggests otherwise. In an article From Esther to AIPAC he writes
that not a single Holocaust religion scholar dares engage in a dialogue with
the so-called 'deniers' to discuss their vision of the events or any other
revisionist scholarship. When questioned as to why he was circulating Holocaust
Wars, a fulsome tribute to neo-Nazi Ernst Zundel, presently in a German prison
for race hate crimes, Atzmon replied that it was great text and described open
Holocaust denier, Israel Shamir as a unique and advanced thinker.
Picket of a talk by the well known anti-Semite
GILAD ATZMON
Brighthelm Community Centre,
North Road, Brighton
Monday January 7th 2008 7.00 p.m.
After so many years of independence, the United States of America is becoming
a remote colony of an apparently far greater state, the Jewish state. The
Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/protocols.html
Atzmon even doubts whether the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are a forgery:
American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion'
are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews (in
fact Zionists) do control the world.
we should be consistent and regard any act against Jews as a political
reaction rather than an irrational racist attack. the success of Zionism drains
away any possibility of anti-Semitism. we must begin to take the accusation
that the Jewish people are trying to control the world very seriously.The
world's number one super power is there to support the Jewish state's wealth
and security matters.
Another anti-Semitic myth that Atzmon circulates is that Jews are christ
killers.
Zionists are not happy at all with the recycling of some old
'Anti-Semitic slogans and images'. They are especially annoyed when they are
blamed for the death of Jesus. I assume that those Jews who get angry when
blamed for killing Jesus are those who identify themselves with Jesus's
killers. Why is it that the Jews who repeatedly demand that the Christian world
should apologise for its involvement in previous persecutions, have never
thought that it is about time that they apologised for killing Jesus?
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/onanti.html On Anti-Semitism
The Js are the ultimate chameleons, they can be whatever they like as long as
it serves as some expedient. As soon as you criticise their expansionist
militant national beliefs (Zionism) you hurt them as a race (Semites).
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/jspot.html The J word, the J people and the
J spot
Atzmons particular targets are anti-Zionists Jews. They are gatekeepers. It
is the presence of Jews within the Palestinian solidarity movement which
explain(s) why the lack of success of the Palestinian solidarity movement has
never made it into a global mass movement. Apparently, not many people around
are that keen to join a liberal synagogue.
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/Dialectic.htm
In a talk given to students at the School of Oriental Studies, Atzmon was
reported as saying that attacking a synagogue is a rational act.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1461699,00.html
Unfortunately Atzmon is taken seriously as a supporter of the Palestinians.
Many people believe that he is a genuine anti-Zionist. We disagree.
Anti-Semitism has always been the handmaiden of Zionism. As the founder of
Political Zionism, Theodore Herzl wrote "the anti-Semites will be our most
dependable friends... our allies." (Diaries pp.83/4) As the Christian Zionist
lobby in the United States demonstrates, if you are anti-Semitic then it is
natural to be a Zionist. You may not wish Jews to live in your country but you
are more than happy for them to colonise Palestine!
p&p, Brighton Jews Against Zionism c/o PO Box 164, Brighton BN1 7WB
<email obscured>
Supported by Sussex Action for Peace, Brighton & Hove Unemployed Workers
Centre
Tony Cook <email obscured>> wrote:
Tony
I'm a little confused by this message. Could you run it by us again?
On the one hand:
Gilad Atzmon has been accused of antisemitism, but responds by questioning the
concept itself: "Because antisemite is an empty signifier, no one actually can
be an antisemite and this includes me of course. In short you are either a
racist, which I am not, or have an ideological disagreement with zionism, which
I have."
This would appear to make him a comrade in arms, on the side of reason rather
than prejudice, a position not too dissimilar to your own vis a vis the upheld
complaint against CS Moore?
On the other hand:
'Gilad Atzmon, like David Icke, has supported a variety of holocaust deniers
and has come close to the position himself."
If I'm to be persuaded to join your picket line I'd need to know what this
means. Does he espouse views that question the holocaust or is this a case of
guilt through association i.e. the appallingly charismatic David Icke?
Tony C
Tony Cook
Info about Tony Cook: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonycook
This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6VdRHcprmRPYXS7GNIXdwV
-----------------------------------------
To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
-----------------------------------------
Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
From:
Kathy mcmullen
Date:
2007 Dec 31 14:43 UTC
Short link
'Semitic' is used to refer to a family of languages that includes Hebrew and
Arabic. The negative English form -of the adjective: 'anti-semitic' emerged
and acquired its present meaning; hostility towards Jews' in the
nineteenth century with the consolidation of nation states and their
empires.
Certainly hostility towards Jews pre-dated the 19th century,.
Take the pogroms in Ireland, well before British imperialism. And look at
what happened to the economy of Spain.
Linguistically speaking the expression anti-Semite is someone who is
hostile towards all semitic peoples, Assyrians, Arabs and many others. It's
not that the signifier is empty, the varied meanings have been forgotten or
ignored to suit political partialities.
I think the interesting question is do we need nation states?
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Cook" <email obscured>>
To: "Brighton & Hove Issues Forum" <email obscured>>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and Picket -
January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
> Tony
>
> I'm a little confused by this message. Could you run it by us again?
>
> On the one hand
>
> Gilad Atzmon has been accused of antisemitism, but responds by
> questioning the concept itself: "Because antisemite is an empty
> signifier, no one actually can be an antisemite and this includes me
> of course. In short you are either a racist, which I am not, or have
> an ideological disagreement with zionism, which I have."
>
> This would appear to make him a comrade in arms, on the side of reason
> rather than prejudice, a position not too dissimilar to your own vis a
> vis the upheld complaint against CS Moore?
>
> On the other hand:
>
> 'Gilad Atzmon, like David Icke, has supported a variety of holocaust
> deniers and has come close to the position himself."
>
> If I'm to be persuaded to join your picket line I'd need to know what
> this means. Does he espouse views that question the holocaust or is
> this a case of guilt through association i.e. the appallingly
> charismatic David Icke?
>
> Tony C
>
> Tony Cook
>
> Info about Tony Cook: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonycook
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6VdRHcprmRPYXS7GNIXdwV
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
From:
Tom Coady
Date:
2007 Dec 31 18:09 UTC
Short link
On Dec 31, 2007 2:43 PM, Kathleen.McMullen <email obscured>>
wrote:
> 'Semitic' is used to refer to a family of languages that includes Hebrew
> and
> Arabic.
Did you mean
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic>
?
> The negative English form -of the adjective: 'anti-semitic' emerged
> and acquired its present meaning; hostility towards Jews' in the
> nineteenth century with the consolidation of nation states and their
> empires.
Sounds like a nazi theory!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic#Ethnicity_and_race
> Certainly hostility towards Jews pre-dated the 19th century,.
> Take the pogroms in Ireland, well before British imperialism. And look at
> what happened to the economy of Spain.
I can beat that - it goes back to the beginning of history!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitic
Maybe we should be judophobic instead?
Linguistically speaking the expression anti-Semite is someone who is
> hostile towards all semitic peoples, Assyrians, Arabs and many others.
> It's
> not that the signifier is empty, the varied meanings have been forgotten
> or
> ignored to suit political partialities.
No! It is hostility, prejudice, toward *Jews* as a religious, racial,
or ethnic group.
I think the interesting question is do we need nation states?
Or more to the point, religions? I just discovered the Amharic branch of
Christianity which predates the orthodox branch in the 400s, still contains
a litany of semitic practices including circumcision, prohibition and weird
diets. So we may as well merge them back in to one and live happily ever..
From:
sean mcdonald
Date:
2008 Jan 04 13:30 UTC
Short link
The Brighthelm Centre state that they have cancelled this event. You can check
with them to confirm this information.
Sean McDonald
From:
Tony greenstein
Date:
2008 Jan 04 17:32 UTC
Short link
Yes,
I've just sent out a press release to this effect! Good news all round.
Tony Greenstein
sean mcdonald <email obscured>> wrote:
The Brighthelm Centre state that they have cancelled this event. You can
check with them to confirm this information.
Sean McDonald
sean mcdonald
Info about sean mcdonald: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/seanmcdonald
This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3zBiD8lvbhMPWQDY2vtTvD
-----------------------------------------
To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
-----------------------------------------
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
From:
Joyce Edmond-Smith
Date:
2008 Jan 08 16:37 UTC
Short link
Those concerned with freedom of speech might be interested to know that the
talk did go
ahead and was very well attended . I had another commitment that evening so
was unsure
whether I would attend , but after the posts on this site decided I had to go
to find
out for myself , and I am very glad I did. The evening was stimulating,
challenging and
thought-provoking. Most of the talk was on the relationship between music and
ethics
and about Gilad's growing up in Israel . There was then a long time given over
to
questions and discussion , (and it did occur to me that had the protesters been
there
they might have asked some probing questions ) . I have not read anything by
Gilad
Atzmon but can say that I saw and heard nothing that could be termed
"anti-Semitic" (and
of course there are lots of ways of defining that .... ) . Nor did I come away
on one
"side" or the other, the issues are far too complex . It was good to engage in
thoughtful and difficult debate rather than cliches and I was challenged,
stimulated
and left with many questions and much to continue to think about .
From:
Tony greenstein
Date:
2008 Jan 08 19:02 UTC
Short link
What was at issue wasn't a question of freedom of speech, the old hoary excuse
used by fascists and racists through the ages, but whether racism and
anti-Semitism is acceptable.
I have no doubt that Atzmon was on his best behaviour last night and careful
not to engage in his normal anti-Jewish polemics but what he has written is
quite clear and I attach a file containing my response to one of his supporters
below with a web link both to the article itself and the various writings of
Atzmon on 'Jewishness' and other topics.
I only became aware of him when he published an article 'The Learned Elders
of London' in response to criticism of an organisation Deir Yassin Remembered,
whose British Director, Paul Eisen is an open holocaust denier. But maybe
Atzmon didn't tell you this? Some of Eisen's choicer comments, and he has
published pamphlets in support of Ernst Zundel, a holocaust denier currently in
a German prison and on topics such as 'Jewish Power'.
The Holocaust too has come under assault. Over the last fifty years,
revisionist scholars have amassed a formidable body of substantial evidence,
which runs in direct opposition to the traditional Holocaust narrative. "Where
is the evidence," they say, "for this alleged gargantuan mass-murder? Where are
the documents? Where are the traces and remains? Where are the weapons of
murder?" These revisionists all acknowledge of course, that there was a
terrible assault on Jews on the part of the National Socialist government, but
disagree as to the scale, motive, and methods cited in the typical narrative, a
narrative that most of us choose or are obliged to accept. "What befell the
Jews", they say, "was a brutal ethnic cleansing accompanied by dispossession,
pillage and massacre."
In Clear Sight of Yad Vashem (January 2006)
http://www.deiryassin.org/byboard18.html
You sound like an inquisitor. You get to frame the question and to define the
parameters of the answer.
Alas I have no simple yes or no. The answer is that Jews were certainly killed
at Auschwitz whether it was because they were Jews or that they just happened
to be Jews, I don't know.
Regarding gas, again I am not sure but the evidence for the use of homicidal
gas-chambers is not good at all. The evidence against it is much, much
stronger.
These are complex issues. To begin to acknowledge that would be a start.
paul | 02.26.07 - 7:03 pm | #
In an e-mail to be of 12.6.05. Atzmon described one Israel Shamir, a Board
Member of Deir Yassing remembered as 'unique and advanced thinker.' An example
of what this advanced thinker believes is below:
'This idea of "bombing Auschwitz" makes sense only if one accepts the vision
of "industrial extermination factory", and it was formed only well after the
war.'
http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Who_Needs.htm
In the 1930's there were many left intellectuals who were prepared to defend
the purges in Stalin's Russia and all the other abominations. Joyce seems
quite prepared to do the same with regard to what Atzmon actually represents,
which is an anti-semitic current within the Palestine solidarity movement.
Tony Greenstein
Joyce Edmond-Smith <email obscured>> wrote:
Those concerned with freedom of speech might be interested to know that the
talk did go ahead and was very well attended . I had another commitment that
evening so was unsure whether I would attend , but after the posts on this site
decided I had to go to find out for myself , and I am very glad I did. The
evening was stimulating, challenging and thought-provoking. Most of the talk
was on the relationship between music and ethics and about Gilad's growing up
in Israel . There was then a long time given over to questions and discussion ,
(and it did occur to me that had the protesters been there they might have
asked some probing questions ) . I have not read anything by Gilad Atzmon but
can say that I saw and heard nothing that could be termed "anti-Semitic" (and
of course there are lots of ways of defining that .... ) . Nor did I come away
on one "side" or the other, the issues are far too complex . It was good to
engage in thoughtful and difficult debate rather than
cliches and I was challenged, stimulated and left with many questions and much
to continue to think about .
Joyce
--- tony greenstein wrote:
> Yes,
>
> I've just sent out a press release to this effect! Good news all round.
>
> Tony Greenstein
>
> sean mcdonald wrote:
> The Brighthelm Centre state that they have cancelled this event. You can
check with
> them to confirm this information.
> Sean McDonald
>
> sean mcdonald
>
> Info about sean mcdonald: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/seanmcdonald
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3zBiD8lvbhMPWQDY2vtTvD
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
> Tony greenstein
>
> Info about Tony greenstein:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonygreenstein
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5ERU5PiYtcYKipNta2c4OG
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
Joyce Edmond-Smith
__________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com
Joyce Edmond-Smith
Info about Joyce Edmond-Smith:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/joyceedmond-smith
This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7JPHxgRvk7XYnfDGb23fW7
-----------------------------------------
To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
-----------------------------------------
Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
From:
Jo Nean
Date:
2008 Jan 09 11:45 UTC
Short link
Tony,
Do you know what happened? Why was the event allegedly cancelled and then
happened anyway?
Jo.
On 08/01/2008, tony greenstein <email obscured>> wrote:
>
> What was at issue wasn't a question of freedom of speech, the old hoary
> excuse used by fascists and racists through the ages, but whether racism and
> anti-Semitism is acceptable.
>
> I have no doubt that Atzmon was on his best behaviour last night and
> careful not to engage in his normal anti-Jewish polemics but what he has
> written is quite clear and I attach a file containing my response to one of
> his supporters below with a web link both to the article itself and the
> various writings of Atzmon on 'Jewishness' and other topics.
>
> I only became aware of him when he published an article 'The Learned
> Elders of London' in response to criticism of an organisation Deir Yassin
> Remembered, whose British Director, Paul Eisen is an open holocaust
> denier. But maybe Atzmon didn't tell you this? Some of Eisen's choicer
> comments, and he has published pamphlets in support of Ernst Zundel, a
> holocaust denier currently in a German prison and on topics such as 'Jewish
> Power'.
>
> The Holocaust too has come under assault. Over the last fifty years,
> revisionist scholars have amassed a formidable body of substantial evidence,
> which runs in direct opposition to the traditional Holocaust narrative.
> "Where is the evidence," they say, "for this alleged gargantuan mass-murder?
> Where are the documents? Where are the traces and remains? Where are the
> weapons of murder?" These revisionists all acknowledge of course, that there
> was a terrible assault on Jews on the part of the National Socialist
> government, but disagree as to the scale, motive, and methods cited in the
> typical narrative, a narrative that most of us choose or are obliged to
> accept. "What befell the Jews", they say, "was a brutal ethnic cleansing
> accompanied by dispossession, pillage and massacre."
> In Clear Sight of Yad Vashem (January 2006)
> http://www.deiryassin.org/byboard18.html
>
> You sound like an inquisitor. You get to frame the question and to
> define the parameters of the answer.
>
> Alas I have no simple yes or no. The answer is that Jews were certainly
> killed at Auschwitz whether it was because they were Jews or that they just
> happened to be Jews, I don't know.
>
> Regarding gas, again I am not sure but the evidence for the use of
> homicidal gas-chambers is not good at all. The evidence against it is much,
> much stronger.
>
> These are complex issues. To begin to acknowledge that would be a start.
> paul | 02.26.07 - 7:03 pm | #
>
> In an e-mail to be of 12.6.05. Atzmon described one Israel Shamir, a
> Board Member of Deir Yassing remembered as 'unique and advanced
> thinker.' An example of what this advanced thinker believes is below:
>
> 'This idea of "bombing Auschwitz" makes sense only if one accepts the
> vision of "industrial extermination factory", and it was formed only well
> after the war.'
> http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Who_Needs.htm
>
> In the 1930's there were many left intellectuals who were prepared to
> defend the purges in Stalin's Russia and all the other abominations. Joyce
> seems quite prepared to do the same with regard to what Atzmon actually
> represents, which is an anti-semitic current within the Palestine solidarity
> movement.
>
> Tony Greenstein
>
>
> Joyce Edmond-Smith <email obscured>> wrote:
> Those concerned with freedom of speech might be interested to know that
> the talk did go ahead and was very well attended . I had another commitment
> that evening so was unsure whether I would attend , but after the posts on
> this site decided I had to go to find out for myself , and I am very glad I
> did. The evening was stimulating, challenging and thought-provoking. Most of
> the talk was on the relationship between music and ethics and about Gilad's
> growing up in Israel . There was then a long time given over to questions
> and discussion , (and it did occur to me that had the protesters been there
> they might have asked some probing questions ) . I have not read anything by
> Gilad Atzmon but can say that I saw and heard nothing that could be termed
> "anti-Semitic" (and of course there are lots of ways of defining that .... )
> . Nor did I come away on one "side" or the other, the issues are far too
> complex . It was good to engage in thoughtful and difficult debate rather
> than
> cliches and I was challenged, stimulated and left with many questions and
> much to continue to think about .
> Joyce
>
> --- tony greenstein wrote:
>
> > Yes,
> >
> > I've just sent out a press release to this effect! Good news all round.
> >
> > Tony Greenstein
> >
> > sean mcdonald wrote:
> > The Brighthelm Centre state that they have cancelled this event. You can
> check with
> > them to confirm this information.
> > Sean McDonald
> >
> > sean mcdonald
> >
> > Info about sean mcdonald:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/seanmcdonald
> >
> > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3zBiD8lvbhMPWQDY2vtTvD
> > -----------------------------------------
> > To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> > in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
> >
> > More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
> >
> > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > -----------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
> Search.
> > Tony greenstein
> >
> > Info about Tony greenstein:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonygreenstein
> >
> > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5ERU5PiYtcYKipNta2c4OG
> > -----------------------------------------
> > To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> > in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
> >
> > More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
> >
> > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
>
>
>
> Joyce Edmond-Smith
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com
>
>
> Joyce Edmond-Smith
>
> Info about Joyce Edmond-Smith:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/joyceedmond-smith
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7JPHxgRvk7XYnfDGb23fW7
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
> Search.
> Tony greenstein
>
> Info about Tony greenstein:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonygreenstein
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/PY7Za0ZRWr7NhDbVB5w14
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
From:
Tony greenstein
Date:
2008 Jan 09 13:49 UTC
Short link
Jo,
The event was cancelled in a public forum, i.e. the Brighthelm Centre, but it
went ahead at a private house. I think the point was made that anti-Semitic
and racist speakers, even if Joyce was fooled as she has been most of her
political career, won't get an easy run.
cheers
Tony
Jo Nean <email obscured>> wrote:
Tony,
Do you know what happened? Why was the event allegedly cancelled and then
happened anyway?
Jo.
On 08/01/2008, tony greenstein wrote:
>
> What was at issue wasn't a question of freedom of speech, the old hoary
> excuse used by fascists and racists through the ages, but whether racism and
> anti-Semitism is acceptable.
>
> I have no doubt that Atzmon was on his best behaviour last night and
> careful not to engage in his normal anti-Jewish polemics but what he has
> written is quite clear and I attach a file containing my response to one of
> his supporters below with a web link both to the article itself and the
> various writings of Atzmon on 'Jewishness' and other topics.
>
> I only became aware of him when he published an article 'The Learned
> Elders of London' in response to criticism of an organisation Deir Yassin
> Remembered, whose British Director, Paul Eisen is an open holocaust
> denier. But maybe Atzmon didn't tell you this? Some of Eisen's choicer
> comments, and he has published pamphlets in support of Ernst Zundel, a
> holocaust denier currently in a German prison and on topics such as 'Jewish
> Power'.
>
> The Holocaust too has come under assault. Over the last fifty years,
> revisionist scholars have amassed a formidable body of substantial evidence,
> which runs in direct opposition to the traditional Holocaust narrative.
> "Where is the evidence," they say, "for this alleged gargantuan mass-murder?
> Where are the documents? Where are the traces and remains? Where are the
> weapons of murder?" These revisionists all acknowledge of course, that there
> was a terrible assault on Jews on the part of the National Socialist
> government, but disagree as to the scale, motive, and methods cited in the
> typical narrative, a narrative that most of us choose or are obliged to
> accept. "What befell the Jews", they say, "was a brutal ethnic cleansing
> accompanied by dispossession, pillage and massacre."
> In Clear Sight of Yad Vashem (January 2006)
> http://www.deiryassin.org/byboard18.html
>
> You sound like an inquisitor. You get to frame the question and to
> define the parameters of the answer.
>
> Alas I have no simple yes or no. The answer is that Jews were certainly
> killed at Auschwitz whether it was because they were Jews or that they just
> happened to be Jews, I don't know.
>
> Regarding gas, again I am not sure but the evidence for the use of
> homicidal gas-chambers is not good at all. The evidence against it is much,
> much stronger.
>
> These are complex issues. To begin to acknowledge that would be a start.
> paul | 02.26.07 - 7:03 pm | #
>
> In an e-mail to be of 12.6.05. Atzmon described one Israel Shamir, a
> Board Member of Deir Yassing remembered as 'unique and advanced
> thinker.' An example of what this advanced thinker believes is below:
>
> 'This idea of "bombing Auschwitz" makes sense only if one accepts the
> vision of "industrial extermination factory", and it was formed only well
> after the war.'
> http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Who_Needs.htm
>
> In the 1930's there were many left intellectuals who were prepared to
> defend the purges in Stalin's Russia and all the other abominations. Joyce
> seems quite prepared to do the same with regard to what Atzmon actually
> represents, which is an anti-semitic current within the Palestine solidarity
> movement.
>
> Tony Greenstein
>
>
> Joyce Edmond-Smith wrote:
> Those concerned with freedom of speech might be interested to know that
> the talk did go ahead and was very well attended . I had another commitment
> that evening so was unsure whether I would attend , but after the posts on
> this site decided I had to go to find out for myself , and I am very glad I
> did. The evening was stimulating, challenging and thought-provoking. Most of
> the talk was on the relationship between music and ethics and about Gilad's
> growing up in Israel . There was then a long time given over to questions
> and discussion , (and it did occur to me that had the protesters been there
> they might have asked some probing questions ) . I have not read anything by
> Gilad Atzmon but can say that I saw and heard nothing that could be termed
> "anti-Semitic" (and of course there are lots of ways of defining that .... )
> . Nor did I come away on one "side" or the other, the issues are far too
> complex . It was good to engage in thoughtful and difficult debate rather
> than
> cliches and I was challenged, stimulated and left with many questions and
> much to continue to think about .
> Joyce
>
> --- tony greenstein wrote:
>
> > Yes,
> >
> > I've just sent out a press release to this effect! Good news all round.
> >
> > Tony Greenstein
> >
> > sean mcdonald wrote:
> > The Brighthelm Centre state that they have cancelled this event. You can
> check with
> > them to confirm this information.
> > Sean McDonald
> >
> > sean mcdonald
> >
> > Info about sean mcdonald:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/seanmcdonald
> >
> > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3zBiD8lvbhMPWQDY2vtTvD
> > -----------------------------------------
> > To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> > in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
> >
> > More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
> >
> > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > -----------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
> Search.
> > Tony greenstein
> >
> > Info about Tony greenstein:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonygreenstein
> >
> > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5ERU5PiYtcYKipNta2c4OG
> > -----------------------------------------
> > To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> > in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
> >
> > More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
> >
> > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
>
>
>
> Joyce Edmond-Smith
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com
>
>
> Joyce Edmond-Smith
>
> Info about Joyce Edmond-Smith:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/joyceedmond-smith
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7JPHxgRvk7XYnfDGb23fW7
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
> Search.
> Tony greenstein
>
> Info about Tony greenstein:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonygreenstein
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/PY7Za0ZRWr7NhDbVB5w14
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
Jo Nean
Info about Jo Nean: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/jonean
This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4wuLrxblEcYK7tgzZ5fTxI
-----------------------------------------
To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
-----------------------------------------
Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
From:
Bernard Claydon
Date:
2008 Jan 09 14:05 UTC
Short link
Very glad to hear it went ahead, even if I missed it due to last
week's misinformation about its cancellation not being corrected.
Presumably Greenstein knew it was in fact on and chose not to inform
us. He was uncharacteristically silent - after bombarding us with so
much cliche and rhetoric against the speaker. How very typically
jewish! Or should I say Israeli? It's a fine distinction it seems to
me, as most jews I've met (admittedly not a huge or necessarily
representative number) are supportive of Israel and its existence in
Palestine - and therefore its brutal oppression of the Palestinians.
It would have been interesting to hear from an Israeli with a
different point of view. And if that makes me antisemitic, then I'm
proud to be antisemitic!
I suspect that "had the protesters been there they might have asked
some probing questions" is overly optimistic. I think they would have
tried to prevent him speaking - and that they would have been far more
likely to acquiesce to Stalin's purges than Joyce would (to extend
Greenstein's preposterous and warped analogy even further!).
B->
On 8 Jan 2008, at 16:36, Joyce Edmond-Smith wrote:
> Those concerned with freedom of speech might be interested to know
> that the talk did go
> ahead and was very well attended . I had another commitment that
> evening so was unsure
> whether I would attend , but after the posts on this site decided I
> had to go to find
> out for myself , and I am very glad I did. The evening was
> stimulating, challenging and
> thought-provoking. Most of the talk was on the relationship between
> music and ethics
> and about Gilad's growing up in Israel . There was then a long time
> given over to
> questions and discussion , (and it did occur to me that had the
> protesters been there
> they might have asked some probing questions ) . I have not read
> anything by Gilad
> Atzmon but can say that I saw and heard nothing that could be termed
> "anti-Semitic" (and
> of course there are lots of ways of defining that .... ) . Nor did
> I come away on one
> "side" or the other, the issues are far too complex . It was good to
> engage in
> thoughtful and difficult debate rather than cliches and I was
> challenged, stimulated
> and left with many questions and much to continue to think about .
>
> Joyce
From:
Tony greenstein
Date:
2008 Jan 09 14:11 UTC
Short link
It's quite interesting what comes out of the woodwork or from under a stone
once it's given a prod.
No I'm not Israeli. Born and lived in Britain all my life. As for typically
Jewish, well I'm sure you would have felt at home with Atzmon with your racist
stereotyping. There was no onus on me to inform people about a meeting I
opposed, but if you'd read the Argus on Monday the information was there.
There are plenty of Israelis who support the Palestinians. Atzmon's support
is no support at all since the recreation of anti-Semitism is the one thing
guaranteed to increase Jewish immigration to Israel, and thus provide even more
settlers. That's what the stupidity of Bernard involves. And if most Jews
support Israel, in itself an arguable proposition, then it is because of racist
scum like himself.
I don't find it all strange that a former left-wing councillor like Joyce
Edmond Smith should find herself in the same political bed as this creature.
Tony Greenstein
Bernard <email obscured>> wrote:
Very glad to hear it went ahead, even if I missed it due to last
week's misinformation about its cancellation not being corrected.
Presumably Greenstein knew it was in fact on and chose not to inform
us. He was uncharacteristically silent - after bombarding us with so
much cliche and rhetoric against the speaker. How very typically
jewish! Or should I say Israeli? It's a fine distinction it seems to
me, as most jews I've met (admittedly not a huge or necessarily
representative number) are supportive of Israel and its existence in
Palestine - and therefore its brutal oppression of the Palestinians.
It would have been interesting to hear from an Israeli with a
different point of view. And if that makes me antisemitic, then I'm
proud to be antisemitic!
I suspect that "had the protesters been there they might have asked
some probing questions" is overly optimistic. I think they would have
tried to prevent him speaking - and that they would have been far more
likely to acquiesce to Stalin's purges than Joyce would (to extend
Greenstein's preposterous and warped analogy even further!).
B->
On 8 Jan 2008, at 16:36, Joyce Edmond-Smith wrote:
> Those concerned with freedom of speech might be interested to know
> that the talk did go
> ahead and was very well attended . I had another commitment that
> evening so was unsure
> whether I would attend , but after the posts on this site decided I
> had to go to find
> out for myself , and I am very glad I did. The evening was
> stimulating, challenging and
> thought-provoking. Most of the talk was on the relationship between
> music and ethics
> and about Gilad's growing up in Israel . There was then a long time
> given over to
> questions and discussion , (and it did occur to me that had the
> protesters been there
> they might have asked some probing questions ) . I have not read
> anything by Gilad
> Atzmon but can say that I saw and heard nothing that could be termed
> "anti-Semitic" (and
> of course there are lots of ways of defining that .... ) . Nor did
> I come away on one
> "side" or the other, the issues are far too complex . It was good to
> engage in
> thoughtful and difficult debate rather than cliches and I was
> challenged, stimulated
> and left with many questions and much to continue to think about .
>
> Joyce
Bernard Claydon
Info about Bernard Claydon:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/bernardclaydon
This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/28gRD7ye8ughbpBWBdUbAQ
-----------------------------------------
To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
-----------------------------------------
Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
From:
Bernard Claydon
Date:
2008 Jan 09 14:23 UTC
Short link
What a thoroughly obnoxious person you are! Blinded by your self-
righteousness and hatred, all you can do is hurl abuse. I don't think
you are worth speaking to. Apologise or go to hell.
B->
On 9 Jan 2008, at 14:10, tony greenstein wrote:
> ...racist scum like himself... ...creature...
From:
Joyce Edmond-Smith
Date:
2008 Jan 09 15:01 UTC
Short link
Others will judge my political career Tony - but I note the usual recourse to
personal
insult and obloquy.
Joyce
--- tony greenstein <email obscured>> wrote:
> Jo,
>
> The event was cancelled in a public forum, i.e. the Brighthelm Centre, but
it went
> ahead at a private house. I think the point was made that anti-Semitic and
racist
> speakers, even if Joyce was fooled as she has been most of her political
career, won't
> get an easy run.
>
> cheers
>
> Tony
>
> Jo Nean <email obscured>> wrote:
> Tony,
>
> Do you know what happened? Why was the event allegedly cancelled and then
> happened anyway?
>
> Jo.
>
>
> On 08/01/2008, tony greenstein wrote:
> >
> > What was at issue wasn't a question of freedom of speech, the old hoary
> > excuse used by fascists and racists through the ages, but whether racism
and
> > anti-Semitism is acceptable.
> >
> > I have no doubt that Atzmon was on his best behaviour last night and
> > careful not to engage in his normal anti-Jewish polemics but what he has
> > written is quite clear and I attach a file containing my response to one of
> > his supporters below with a web link both to the article itself and the
> > various writings of Atzmon on 'Jewishness' and other topics.
> >
> > I only became aware of him when he published an article 'The Learned
> > Elders of London' in response to criticism of an organisation Deir Yassin
> > Remembered, whose British Director, Paul Eisen is an open holocaust
> > denier. But maybe Atzmon didn't tell you this? Some of Eisen's choicer
> > comments, and he has published pamphlets in support of Ernst Zundel, a
> > holocaust denier currently in a German prison and on topics such as 'Jewish
> > Power'.
> >
> > The Holocaust too has come under assault. Over the last fifty years,
> > revisionist scholars have amassed a formidable body of substantial
evidence,
> > which runs in direct opposition to the traditional Holocaust narrative.
> > "Where is the evidence," they say, "for this alleged gargantuan
mass-murder?
> > Where are the documents? Where are the traces and remains? Where are the
> > weapons of murder?" These revisionists all acknowledge of course, that
there
> > was a terrible assault on Jews on the part of the National Socialist
> > government, but disagree as to the scale, motive, and methods cited in the
> > typical narrative, a narrative that most of us choose or are obliged to
> > accept. "What befell the Jews", they say, "was a brutal ethnic cleansing
> > accompanied by dispossession, pillage and massacre."
> > In Clear Sight of Yad Vashem (January 2006)
> > http://www.deiryassin.org/byboard18.html
> >
> > You sound like an inquisitor. You get to frame the question and to
> > define the parameters of the answer.
> >
> > Alas I have no simple yes or no. The answer is that Jews were certainly
> > killed at Auschwitz whether it was because they were Jews or that they just
> > happened to be Jews, I don't know.
> >
> > Regarding gas, again I am not sure but the evidence for the use of
> > homicidal gas-chambers is not good at all. The evidence against it is much,
> > much stronger.
> >
> > These are complex issues. To begin to acknowledge that would be a start.
> > paul | 02.26.07 - 7:03 pm | #
> >
> > In an e-mail to be of 12.6.05. Atzmon described one Israel Shamir, a
> > Board Member of Deir Yassing remembered as 'unique and advanced
> > thinker.' An example of what this advanced thinker believes is below:
> >
> > 'This idea of "bombing Auschwitz" makes sense only if one accepts the
> > vision of "industrial extermination factory", and it was formed only well
> > after the war.'
> > http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Who_Needs.htm
> >
> > In the 1930's there were many left intellectuals who were prepared to
> > defend the purges in Stalin's Russia and all the other abominations. Joyce
> > seems quite prepared to do the same with regard to what Atzmon actually
> > represents, which is an anti-semitic current within the Palestine
solidarity
> > movement.
> >
> > Tony Greenstein
> >
> >
> > Joyce Edmond-Smith wrote:
> > Those concerned with freedom of speech might be interested to know that
> > the talk did go ahead and was very well attended . I had another commitment
> > that evening so was unsure whether I would attend , but after the posts on
> > this site decided I had to go to find out for myself , and I am very glad I
> > did. The evening was stimulating, challenging and thought-provoking. Most
of
> > the talk was on the relationship between music and ethics and about Gilad's
> > growing up in Israel . There was then a long time given over to questions
> > and discussion , (and it did occur to me that had the protesters been there
> > they might have asked some probing questions ) . I have not read anything
by
> > Gilad Atzmon but can say that I saw and heard nothing that could be termed
> > "anti-Semitic" (and of course there are lots of ways of defining that ....
)
> > . Nor did I come away on one "side" or the other, the issues are far too
> > complex . It was good to engage in thoughtful and difficult debate rather
> > than
> > cliches and I was challenged, stimulated and left with many questions and
> > much to continue to think about .
> > Joyce
> >
> > --- tony greenstein wrote:
> >
> > > Yes,
> > >
> > > I've just sent out a press release to this effect! Good news all round.
> > >
> > > Tony Greenstein
> > >
> > > sean mcdonald wrote:
> > > The Brighthelm Centre state that they have cancelled this event. You can
> > check with
> > > them to confirm this information.
> > > Sean McDonald
> > >
> > > sean mcdonald
> > >
> > > Info about sean mcdonald:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/seanmcdonald
> > >
> > > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> > > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/3zBiD8lvbhMPWQDY2vtTvD
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > > To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> > > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> > > in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
> > >
> > > More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> > > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
> > >
> > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
> > Search.
> > > Tony greenstein
> > >
> > > Info about Tony greenstein:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonygreenstein
> > >
> > > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> > > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5ERU5PiYtcYKipNta2c4OG
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > > To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> > > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> > > in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
> > >
> > > More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> > > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
> > >
> > > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Joyce Edmond-Smith
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > Joyce Edmond-Smith
> >
> > Info about Joyce Edmond-Smith:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/joyceedmond-smith
> >
> > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7JPHxgRvk7XYnfDGb23fW7
> > -----------------------------------------
> > To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> > in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
> >
> > More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
> >
> > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
> > Search.
> > Tony greenstein
> >
> > Info about Tony greenstein:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonygreenstein
> >
> > This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/PY7Za0ZRWr7NhDbVB5w14
> > -----------------------------------------
> > To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> > To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> > in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
> >
> > More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
> >
> > E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
>
> Jo Nean
>
> Info about Jo Nean: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/jonean
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/4wuLrxblEcYK7tgzZ5fTxI
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
> Tony greenstein
>
> Info about Tony greenstein:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/tonygreenstein
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/37jPPDnRLNeFXmc0vqd7hT
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
Joyce Edmond-Smith
__________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com
From:
Roy Pennington
Date:
2008 Jan 09 23:54 UTC
Short link
Yes, until one has felt the wrath of Tony, one cannot call oneself a true
Brightonian. Even Lord Bassam felt it. What is interesting is the
collaboration with the Daily Anus.
All power for your pen, Tony, though it is a category mistake to conflate the
fight to free speech and preventing holocaust denial.
From:
Helen Russell
Date:
2008 Jan 10 00:43 UTC
Short link
Sorry, but isn't the occupation of Palestinian land by Israel a political
thing? Is it not another instance of religion being used as an excuse, a cover,
for imperialist acquisition? I'm fed up with the name calling. None of us will
be any the wiser if we get lost in slagging each other off like this. Feelings
run very high over issues like this, but there is a place for them, and at the
moment feelings are just obscuring any real debate.
I think we would all agree that the death and destruction in the Middle East is
unspeakable, but we have to find ways to speak about it in order to do
something about it. I knew nothing about Gilad Atzmon before this exchange, and
unfortunately have learned little, except perhaps from Tony Cook's observation
of some contradictions - which just goes to show how easy it is to divide and
rule through propaganda!
Whether these people should be given a platform is a tricky question. Often
they destroy their message simply through their irrationality. And don't forget
that freedom of speech is counterbalanced by the freedom to answer back. But
our answers have to be carefully reasoned factual arguments. If someone could
extrapolate some facts here that would be a start.
From:
Tony greenstein
Date:
2008 Jan 10 01:34 UTC
Short link
Yes these are reasonable questions and observations.
Of course the occupation of Palestine by the Zionists, and not just the
post-67 territories is political. It is also backed to the hilt by the present
government and the opposition. Indeed there isn't a piece of paper that could
be put between their position. And yes, as with Iraq and Iran, religion is used
as the cloak for imperial ambition. I would quote the word's of Bob Dylan's
With God On Our Side but I realised that being Jewish he'd probably offend
Bernard.
What is completely unacceptable is when a poster to this list states things
such as:
'How very typically jewish! Or should I say Israeli? It's a fine distinction
it seems to
me, as most jews I've met (admittedly not a huge or necessarily representative
number) are supportive of Israel and its existence in Palestine - and therefore
its brutal oppression of the Palestinians. ... if that makes me antisemitic,
then I'm proud to be antisemitic!'
Even excluding the racist stereotype 'typically Jewish' (would typically
Black be a help maybe not these days) it seems that most list members are
unable to perceive the above for what it is. The fact that some Jews do support
Israel and what it does is irrelevant. I don't for one nor do many others. But
I do understand racism, be it anti-Palestinian or anti-Jewish. And I'm
surprised at the no. of people who seem incapable here of recognising the very
clear difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Val Cane and Roy
Pennington have both posted and I would have expected them to at least
recognise there was an issue.
Helen says she doesn't know what to believe. Fine. I post below an extract of
his sayings. Lets see who can spot why they are anti-Semitic. American Jewry
makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an
authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to
control the world, by proxy. So far they are doing pretty well for themselves
at least. Whether the Americans enjoy the deterioration of their state's
affairs will no doubt be revealed soon.
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/onanti.html In June, Gilad distributed an
article by his friend Paul Eisen, entitled "The Holocaust Wars". It is a
defence of the neo-Nazi and Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel Gilad described
"Holocaust Wars" as a great text to me in an e-mail, which has been widely
distributed, landing up in Aaronovitchs appalling Times column. Gilad also
informed me that Israel Shamir was a "unique and advanced thinker". His
independent thinking includes
describing Auschwitz as a labour rather than as an internment camp.
http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Who_Needs.htm The idea that Zionists have
taken over America might sound bizarre in the first instance but we must
remember that this kind of strange scenario does happen. Last month I heard
Israel Shamir's observation regarding this very issue. American foreign policy
is dictated by a very marginal group of Zionist activists, even by the state of
Israel itself. Good news for Israel, quite an amazing achievement for a
microscopic state. But is it good news for the American people? Is it good news
for the world? http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/protocols.html The J
word, the J people and the J spot-Gilad Atzmon The Js are the ultimate
chameleons, they can be whatever they like as long as it serves as some
expedient. http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/jspot.html On Anti-Semitism
Gilad Atzmon 20.12.2003 I would suggest that perhaps we should face it once
and for all: the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus who, by the
way, was himself a Palestinian Jew. But then two questions should be asked:
Helen Russell <email obscured>> wrote:
Sorry, but isn't the occupation of Palestinian land by Israel a political
thing? Is it not another instance of religion being used as an excuse, a cover,
for imperialist acquisition? I'm fed up with the name calling. None of us will
be any the wiser if we get lost in slagging each other off like this. Feelings
run very high over issues like this, but there is a place for them, and at the
moment feelings are just obscuring any real debate.
I think we would all agree that the death and destruction in the Middle East is
unspeakable, but we have to find ways to speak about it in order to do
something about it. I knew nothing about Gilad Atzmon before this exchange, and
unfortunately have learned little, except perhaps from Tony Cook's observation
of some contradictions - which just goes to show how easy it is to divide and
rule through propaganda!
Whether these people should be given a platform is a tricky question. Often
they destroy their message simply through their irrationality. And don't forget
that freedom of speech is counterbalanced by the freedom to answer back. But
our answers have to be carefully reasoned factual arguments. If someone could
extrapolate some facts here that would be a start. Helen Russell
Brighton, Brighton & Hove City Council
Info about Helen Russell: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/helenrussell
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
From:
Bernard Claydon
Date:
2008 Jan 10 03:52 UTC
Short link
TG is selectively quoting, as usual, to pursue his own agenda. To say
something is "typically jewish" is not racist. And "It would have been
interesting to hear from an Israeli with a different point of view.
And if that makes me antisemitic, then I'm proud to be antisemitic!"
is not admitting to being antisemitic, because, as anyone with half a
brain can see, it doesn't - however you care to define the word. As I
said, he is not worth arguing with, but just for the record, I am
neither antisemitic nor racist, so TG should find another patsy to
vent his spleen on and stop libelling me.
From:
Glenn Williams
Date:
2008 Jan 10 12:31 UTC
Short link
Getting people to overcome the fear of being labelled anti-semitic is a
major obstacle in promoting the Palestinian cause and getting more
people involved. I think abusing Bernard and wrongly calling him racist
clearly demonstrates that such accusations are all too easily exploited
by our friends as well as our enemies.
I am horrified at the personal, all too public and destructive nature of
this argument.
Glenn
Bernard wrote:
> TG is selectively quoting, as usual, to pursue his own agenda. To say
> something is "typically jewish" is not racist. And "It would have been
> interesting to hear from an Israeli with a different point of view.
> And if that makes me antisemitic, then I'm proud to be antisemitic!"
> is not admitting to being antisemitic, because, as anyone with half a
> brain can see, it doesn't - however you care to define the word. As I
> said, he is not worth arguing with, but just for the record, I am
> neither antisemitic nor racist, so TG should find another patsy to
> vent his spleen on and stop libelling me.
>
> B->
>
>
>
>
> Bernard Claydon
> Western Road, Brighton
> Info about Bernard Claydon:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/bernardclaydon
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7w5iGhACS2mqyPj4Tq3WWr
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
From:
matt lee
Date:
2008 Jan 10 12:42 UTC
Short link
Whilst people no doubt dislike being labelled as anything, let alone racist,
and whilst such labellng may, at times, be aimed to prevent further reasonable
discussion this does not imply that labelling is at all times inappropriate.
In the current situation I can entirely see why Tony Greenstein might label
Bernard Claydon as racist on the basis of his comments. As far as I can see
the use of a phrase such as "typically Jewish" is prima facie racist because it
is using a racial stereotype.
It is a simple matter of either agreeing or disagreeing with the idea that the
use of racial stereotypes is an indication of a racist methodology (and
analogously the use of sexist stereotypes is indication of a sexist methodlogy
etc). The use of a racist methodology is legitimate grounds (perhaps the only
grounds, even) on which an accusation of racism may be made. Thus if it holds
that a racial stereotype has been used then an accusation of racism is
legitimate. Maybe My Claydon should not merely respond with an ad hominem
attack but atually question whether he agrees with the use of racial
stereotypes. If he does, then he should either explain how this does not
constitute racism or withdraw the comment and learn something about the use of
language in the perpetuation of oppression.
From:
Glenn Williams
Date:
2008 Jan 10 15:02 UTC
Short link
Getting people to overcome the fear of being labelled anti-semitic is a
major obstacle in promoting the Palestinian cause and getting more
people involved. I think abusing Bernard and wrongly calling him racist
clearly demonstrates that such accusations are all too easily exploited
by our friends as well as our enemies.
I am horrified at the personal, all too public and destructive nature of
this argument.
Glenn
Bernard wrote:
> TG is selectively quoting, as usual, to pursue his own agenda. To say
> something is "typically jewish" is not racist. And "It would have been
> interesting to hear from an Israeli with a different point of view.
> And if that makes me antisemitic, then I'm proud to be antisemitic!"
> is not admitting to being antisemitic, because, as anyone with half a
> brain can see, it doesn't - however you care to define the word. As I
> said, he is not worth arguing with, but just for the record, I am
> neither antisemitic nor racist, so TG should find another patsy to
> vent his spleen on and stop libelling me.
>
> B->
>
>
>
>
> Bernard Claydon
> Western Road, Brighton
> Info about Bernard Claydon:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/bernardclaydon
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7w5iGhACS2mqyPj4Tq3WWr
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
From:
Helen Russell
Date:
2008 Jan 10 15:06 UTC
Short link
By the way, and incidentally, I do not work for Brighton & Hove City Council,
never have, and hope never will! For some reason when my name comes up at the
end of some of my postings to this forum, I am identified as 'Helen Russell
Brighton, Brighton & Hove City Council'. Why this is I have no idea, and I've
asked the moderator to remove the tag.
Thanks for responding Tony G., I'll give some thought to your remarks.
cheers Helen
From:
Bernard Claydon
Date:
2008 Jan 10 17:19 UTC
Short link
Are you seriously suggesting that if I say you are typically british
for drinking tea, for example, that I deserve to be labelled racist
scum, or a stone-dwelling creature - something less than human and
therefore, presumably, ripe for extermination? Perhaps you'd prefer to
make an example of me and have me crucified!
But seriously.. if we are honest with ourselves, then we are all
racist to varying degrees, but for some reason it's ok to mock the
french for eating frog's legs, but satirise jews and this is the kind
of hysterical reaction you provoke.
Now I'll go back to sketching a cartoon monkey called Mo... - ok let's
not go there.
B->
On 10 Jan 2008, at 12:45, matt lee wrote:
> Whilst people no doubt dislike being labelled as anything, let alone
> racist, and whilst such labellng may, at times, be aimed to prevent
> further reasonable discussion this does not imply that labelling is
> at all times inappropriate.
>
> In the current situation I can entirely see why Tony Greenstein
> might label Bernard Claydon as racist on the basis of his comments.
> As far as I can see the use of a phrase such as "typically Jewish"
> is prima facie racist because it is using a racial stereotype.
>
> It is a simple matter of either agreeing or disagreeing with the
> idea that the use of racial stereotypes is an indication of a racist
> methodology (and analogously the use of sexist stereotypes is
> indication of a sexist methodlogy etc). The use of a racist
> methodology is legitimate grounds (perhaps the only grounds, even)
> on which an accusation of racism may be made. Thus if it holds that
> a racial stereotype has been used then an accusation of racism is
> legitimate. Maybe My Claydon should not merely respond with an ad
> hominem attack but atually question whether he agrees with the use
> of racial stereotypes. If he does, then he should either explain
> how this does not constitute racism or withdraw the comment and
> learn something about the use of language in the perpetuation of
> oppression.
>
> matt lee
From:
Jo Nean
Date:
2008 Jan 10 18:07 UTC
Short link
Bernard,
If I called somebody typically black for doing something I didn't like that
would be racism.
I think that is pretty clear.
I have never mocked the French for eating frogs legs or the British for
drinking tea but I think we both know that is irrelevant. There is a world
of difference between casual stereotyping of a dominant culture and
oppression of a culture that has been almost wiped out because of hatred and
prejudice. That said, I don't think it's helpful to perpetuate any
stereotype, all it does is create and strengthen ficticious barriers between
'us' and 'them'.
Nationalism is very powerful and very destructive. Saying that everyone does
it does not make it ok.
Jo.
On 10/01/2008, Bernard <email obscured>> wrote:
>
> Are you seriously suggesting that if I say you are typically british
> for drinking tea, for example, that I deserve to be labelled racist
> scum, or a stone-dwelling creature - something less than human and
> therefore, presumably, ripe for extermination? Perhaps you'd prefer to
> make an example of me and have me crucified!
>
> But seriously.. if we are honest with ourselves, then we are all
> racist to varying degrees, but for some reason it's ok to mock the
> french for eating frog's legs, but satirise jews and this is the kind
> of hysterical reaction you provoke.
>
> Now I'll go back to sketching a cartoon monkey called Mo... - ok let's
> not go there.
>
> B->
>
>
> On 10 Jan 2008, at 12:45, matt lee wrote:
>
> > Whilst people no doubt dislike being labelled as anything, let alone
> > racist, and whilst such labellng may, at times, be aimed to prevent
> > further reasonable discussion this does not imply that labelling is
> > at all times inappropriate.
> >
> > In the current situation I can entirely see why Tony Greenstein
> > might label Bernard Claydon as racist on the basis of his comments.
> > As far as I can see the use of a phrase such as "typically Jewish"
> > is prima facie racist because it is using a racial stereotype.
> >
> > It is a simple matter of either agreeing or disagreeing with the
> > idea that the use of racial stereotypes is an indication of a racist
> > methodology (and analogously the use of sexist stereotypes is
> > indication of a sexist methodlogy etc). The use of a racist
> > methodology is legitimate grounds (perhaps the only grounds, even)
> > on which an accusation of racism may be made. Thus if it holds that
> > a racial stereotype has been used then an accusation of racism is
> > legitimate. Maybe My Claydon should not merely respond with an ad
> > hominem attack but atually question whether he agrees with the use
> > of racial stereotypes. If he does, then he should either explain
> > how this does not constitute racism or withdraw the comment and
> > learn something about the use of language in the perpetuation of
> > oppression.
> >
> > matt lee
>
>
> Bernard Claydon
> Western Road, Brighton
> Info about Bernard Claydon:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/bernardclaydon
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/2ouoIp9TXB2443EINnJrcZ
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
--
My new blog: http://alongwayfromeden.blogspot.com/
From:
Roy Pennington
Date:
2008 Jan 10 21:10 UTC
Short link
What annoyed me (as a disabled person) was that I was looking forward to
hearing the speaker in a venue I know to be disabled-friendly and then read it
was cancelled and re-located in a private house in unknown access arrangements.
It was wrong and irresponsible for the Brighthelm Center to give in to the
threats of public disorder.
Roy Pennington
From:
VAL CANE
Date:
2008 Jan 10 21:52 UTC
Short link
At last . Roy has produced about the only important and edifying input on this
topic recently. It is a great pity that he and fellow disabled people were
disadvantaged in this way.
To me this is all very reminiscent of the conflict and scorn expressed by the
Judean Peoples Liberation Front (or was it their rivals?) in the Life of Brian.
Instead of a collection of people with their hearts in the right place (in
general) vilifying one another, maybe we could start attacking the common
enemy? Or have I got it totally wrong, maybe there is no common enemy?
And Tony, with four children I'm surprised Pollyanna has never crossed your
path. Lighten up, go to the odd pub quiz occasionally maybe?
Val> To: <email obscured>> From: <email obscured>> Subject:
Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and Picket - January 7th
7.00 Brighthelm> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:12:05 +1300> > What annoyed me (as a
disabled person) was that I was looking forward to hearing the speaker in a
venue I know to be disabled-friendly and then read it was cancelled and
re-located in a private house in unknown access arrangements.> > It was wrong
and irresponsible for the Brighthelm Center to give in to the threats of public
disorder. > > Roy Pennington> > Roy Pennington> City center - Palace Pier to
West Pier via Seven Dials, Brighton and Hove> Info about Roy Pennington:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/roypennington> > This topic's messages
may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/68raIy7mUgI04Izb2eGtZ4>
-----------------------------------------> To post, send your message to:
<email obscured>> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or
"digest on,"> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>> > More
info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum: >
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh> > E-Democracy.Org rules:
http://e-democracy.org/rules> ----------------------------------------->
Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
_________________________________________________________________
Free games, great prizes - get gaming at Gamesbox.
http://www.searchgamesbox.com
From:
VAL CANE
Date:
2008 Jan 10 21:57 UTC
Short link
Mainly for Tony who I know won't find the time to check it out.....Pollyanna is
not just a classic of childrens literature but has now come into usage as
denoting a person who is 'follishly and blindly optimistic' - well, I can live
with that.
Val> To: <email obscured>> From: <email obscured>> Subject:
Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and Picket - January 7th
7.00 Brighthelm> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:12:05 +1300> > What annoyed me (as a
disabled person) was that I was looking forward to hearing the speaker in a
venue I know to be disabled-friendly and then read it was cancelled and
re-located in a private house in unknown access arrangements.> > It was wrong
and irresponsible for the Brighthelm Center to give in to the threats of public
disorder. > > Roy Pennington> > Roy Pennington> City center - Palace Pier to
West Pier via Seven Dials, Brighton and Hove> Info about Roy Pennington:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/roypennington> > This topic's messages
may be viewed at: http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/68raIy7mUgI04Izb2eGtZ4>
From:
Tony Cook
Date:
2008 Jan 10 22:47 UTC
Short link
Talking of reconciliation, combatting prejudice and the need for civil
discourse, I see the peace envoy to the Middle East has declared an
interest that - once again - questions his credentials as an 'honest
broker' ....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jan/10/blairjpmorgan?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront
... call me cynical but I see evidence of payback time for services
previously rendered.
If the heat generated by our own debate is anything to go by, this
news of a banking connection will only serve to inflate rather than
disperse anti-semitic sentiments in the region. Whether it's to be a
3-state, 2-state, 1-state or 0-state solution should arise from
seeking out the greatest good for all, not the greatest reward for
'moi'.
With this news his integrity is surely compromised. No matter how
objective or practical the thinking the more partisan it will appear
to be. Especially if he tries to focus minds on lifting the blockade,
on the need for infrastructure and investment, on tackling the
material grievances that fuel all the others ... and then proposes a
Private Finance Initiative.
Tony C
From:
Tony greenstein
Date:
2008 Jan 11 00:05 UTC
Short link
Bernard is trying to wriggle out of the fact that he made quite explicitly
racist and anti-Semitic remarks.
There is no comparison between saying someone is typically English for
drinking tea, a nonsense incidentally, and say that I was 'uncharacteristically
silent... How very typically
jewish! Or should I say Israeli? It's a fine distinction it seems to me, as
most jews I've met ... are supportive of Israel and its existence in
Palestine....'
If someone said it was 'typically Jewish' to have chicken soup or it was
'typically Irish' to eat potatos or stew then is a stereotype. And stereotypes
are also best avoided, not least because it is normally the refuge of those too
lazy to inquire into the particular.
What Bernard did say was that it was 'typically Jewish' to remain
'uncharacteristically silent.' Likewise saying that someone is 'typically
Irish' because they are thick. It is also a non-sequitur and illogical since
it's not clear what is being called typically Jewish. Remaining
uncharacteristically silent or the opposite of silent? It is describing not a
cultural but a behavioural trait, along the lines of all Scots are drunks or
all English are chauvinist pigs (oh sorry that is specieist!). Such
characterisations are typically racist.
And suggesting that because I'm Jewish that I'm Israeli is pretty classical
anti-semitism, especially since Bernard knows I'm as anti-Israeli politically
as it gets, is just further evidence that this was another racist comment.
Capped by his resounding 'if that makes me anti-Semitic then I'm proud to be
anti-Semitic' I'm not sure why there is even any argument over what was said.
Racism classically dehumanises people so it's amusing to hear Bernard
complaining about being compared to a stone-dwelling creature.
But maybe the gaggle of New Labour councillors have become so immunised by
New Labour's policy on asylum seekers that they've lost the ability to
recognise what is and is not racist.
Because Bernard didn't make the effort to find out or read the local paper,
he wasn't aware of the location of the meeting and believed I had a duty to
keep him informed. Assuming that was true what did that have to do with being
Jewish or indeed Israeli?
Tony Greenstein
Bernard <email obscured>> wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that if I say you are typically british
for drinking tea, for example, that I deserve to be labelled racist
scum, or a stone-dwelling creature - something less than human and
therefore, presumably, ripe for extermination? Perhaps you'd prefer to
make an example of me and have me crucified!
But seriously.. if we are honest with ourselves, then we are all
racist to varying degrees, but for some reason it's ok to mock the
french for eating frog's legs, but satirise jews and this is the kind
of hysterical reaction you provoke.
Now I'll go back to sketching a cartoon monkey called Mo... - ok let's
not go there.
B->
On 10 Jan 2008, at 12:45, matt lee wrote:
> Whilst people no doubt dislike being labelled as anything, let alone
> racist, and whilst such labellng may, at times, be aimed to prevent
> further reasonable discussion this does not imply that labelling is
> at all times inappropriate.
>
> In the current situation I can entirely see why Tony Greenstein
> might label Bernard Claydon as racist on the basis of his comments.
> As far as I can see the use of a phrase such as "typically Jewish"
> is prima facie racist because it is using a racial stereotype.
>
> It is a simple matter of either agreeing or disagreeing with the
> idea that the use of racial stereotypes is an indication of a racist
> methodology (and analogously the use of sexist stereotypes is
> indication of a sexist methodlogy etc). The use of a racist
> methodology is legitimate grounds (perhaps the only grounds, even)
> on which an accusation of racism may be made. Thus if it holds that
> a racial stereotype has been used then an accusation of racism is
> legitimate. Maybe My Claydon should not merely respond with an ad
> hominem attack but atually question whether he agrees with the use
> of racial stereotypes. If he does, then he should either explain
> how this does not constitute racism or withdraw the comment and
> learn something about the use of language in the perpetuation of
> oppression.
>
> matt lee
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
From:
Tony greenstein
Date:
2008 Jan 11 00:25 UTC
Short link
No Glenn, you are confusing two different things, which is precisely one of the
problems with Atzmon, in that he deliberately conflates Jews and Zionists,
indeed insisting that there is a metaphysical 'Jewishness' which defines all
Jews.
Certainly getting people who support the Palestinians and who are
anti-Zionist to overcome the libellous accusation that they are anti-Semitic is
and should be a goal of the Palestine solidarity movement. If you had been
around in it as long as me, and that's not a criticism, then you would know
that I have repeatedly attacked the idea that to support the Palestinians is to
be anti-Semitic. For example the articles below which I wrote for the Guardian
Comment is Free site:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/tony_greenstein/2007/04/an_attack_on_free_speech.html
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/tony_greenstein/2007/07/a_war_on_rationality.html
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/tony_greenstein/2007/05/vetting_in_practice.html
I also wrote an article concerning Atzmon, making the clear distinction
between false accusations of anti-Semitism and genuine anti-Semitism
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/tony_greenstein/2007/02/greenstein.html
thus Glenn's confusion between the two - false and actual - is surprising
given he is aware of the issues. There was nothing wrong in calling Bernard a
racist and his defence of his comments merely compounds his original comments,
unless it is false pride that prevents him from acknowledging that fact.
I don't see why Glenn should be horrified by the argument or is all argument
on this list to remain at the level of the mundane? It was not too long ago
Glenn that you were complaining about the list precisely because it never did
debate issues in depth.
Tony
Glenn Williams <email obscured>> wrote:
Getting people to overcome the fear of being labelled anti-semitic is a
major obstacle in promoting the Palestinian cause and getting more
people involved. I think abusing Bernard and wrongly calling him racist
clearly demonstrates that such accusations are all too easily exploited
by our friends as well as our enemies.
I am horrified at the personal, all too public and destructive nature of
this argument.
Glenn
Bernard wrote:
> TG is selectively quoting, as usual, to pursue his own agenda. To say
> something is "typically jewish" is not racist. And "It would have been
> interesting to hear from an Israeli with a different point of view.
> And if that makes me antisemitic, then I'm proud to be antisemitic!"
> is not admitting to being antisemitic, because, as anyone with half a
> brain can see, it doesn't - however you care to define the word. As I
> said, he is not worth arguing with, but just for the record, I am
> neither antisemitic nor racist, so TG should find another patsy to
> vent his spleen on and stop libelling me.
>
> B->
>
>
>
>
> Bernard Claydon
> Western Road, Brighton
> Info about Bernard Claydon:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/bernardclaydon
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7w5iGhACS2mqyPj4Tq3WWr
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
>
Glenn Williams
Elm Grove Area, Pavilion
Info about Glenn Williams: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/glennwilliams
This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/6EbNwhAIPSp44twJPjonLA
-----------------------------------------
To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
-----------------------------------------
Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
From:
Tony greenstein
Date:
2008 Jan 11 01:01 UTC
Short link
If someone is not anti-Semitic or racist then they don't usually make racist
comments.
I've already explained why the use of the term 'typically Jewish' is racist,
especially in the context in which it was used, i.e. behavioural traits. So
yes, the boast that 'if that makes me as, then I'm proud to be..' is
unfortunately true. If it walks, talks and quacks like a duck then it probably
is one!
Tony
PS: I assume it's not speciest to say that ducks quack?
Bernard <email obscured>> wrote:
TG is selectively quoting, as usual, to pursue his own agenda. To say
something is "typically jewish" is not racist. And "It would have been
interesting to hear from an Israeli with a different point of view.
And if that makes me antisemitic, then I'm proud to be antisemitic!"
is not admitting to being antisemitic, because, as anyone with half a
brain can see, it doesn't - however you care to define the word. As I
said, he is not worth arguing with, but just for the record, I am
neither antisemitic nor racist, so TG should find another patsy to
vent his spleen on and stop libelling me.
B->
Bernard Claydon
Western Road, Brighton
Info about Bernard Claydon:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/bernardclaydon
This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7w5iGhACS2mqyPj4Tq3WWr
-----------------------------------------
To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
-----------------------------------------
Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
From:
David Botibol
Date:
2008 Jan 12 10:16 UTC
Short link
For any readers who wish to follow this topic, Tony G appears to have moved it
to the SCIP Discussion List at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/scip-discussion/message/8868
From:
David Braund
Date:
2008 Jan 12 11:23 UTC
Short link
I also posted on this topic to this forum a day earlier than you, but unlike
your posting mine does not appear to have been delivered. Why is this? I'm
not aware of any mechanism for one subscriber to prevent publication of a
post to a thread on this forum because they have "moved it" to another
forum.
Unless it is just that only I have not received a copy, an explanation is
awaited.
David Braund
From:
Mango Persimmon
Date:
2008 Jan 12 11:54 UTC
Short link
I felt so strongly about this that I have joined the forum to post.
I have looked quite carefully at Atzmon's stuff and I definitely think he is
anti-semitic, although some of his arguments are good, so it's a shame. There
is a very nutty edge to his writing. I have come across this kind of style
before. The stuff about "the J's" is rather bizarre and extremely offensive. He
seems rather confused, veering from one thing to another and conflating Israeli
and Jewish interests as if there is such a thing as Jewish interests in
general. Also the article where he sympathetically discusses the Zionists'
stereotyping of Jews as awkward, anti-social, not fully human and so on is
extremely offensive.
I think that Tony could have set out some of his posts better. The arguments
may be a little obscure for some people and it is not always clear when Tony is
quoting or paraphrasing. A little more use of quote marks would clarify.
Bernard is clearly a gibbering racist. I assumed he had shot himself in the
foot with what he said, but disappointingly some people have supported him.
A fallacy that I find particularly annoying is when people say that picketing a
meeting is an attack on free speech. The picketers are not preventing anyone
from speaking; they are expressing their disagreement with the event taking
place. And if the Brighthelm centre pull out, they are not preventing anyone
from speaking; they are just refusing to facilitate them speaking. This
bleating about free speech is bad-tempered nonsense. It reminds me of when I
was punched in the face by a lecturer at Sussex University because I was
speaking, and the university justified the assault by saying he was defending
free speech. The slogan of 'free speech' used in this way is entirely vacuous.
I am worried by the manifestations of Jewish-conspiracy theory I have seen
around recently. It has almost got to the point where Holocaust denial is
becoming respectable in liberal and left-wing circles. Certain corners of the
911 etc conspiracy community verge into Protocols territory.
I'm totally on Tony's side here and I am impressed he has contained himself as
much as he has, given the levels of insult and stupidity he has had to deal
with.
By the way, another bunch of bigoted loonies (no, not you, Bernard) are giving
talks at the Cornerstone Community Centre over the next few weeks. They are
called the Shamanic and Ecological Association and lurking behind the
attractive mystical ecological ideas are virulent homophobia and anti-semitism.
Just have a look at their newsletter if you don't believe me. I have contacted
the centre about this and would appreciate some support.
Regards, Mango.
From:
Bernard Claydon
Date:
2008 Jan 12 13:21 UTC
Short link
Outrageous! That man has the integrity of a mangy dog. I assume the
moderator of that list will ban him forthwith.
From:
David Braund
Date:
2008 Jan 12 14:45 UTC
Short link
I sent my post to Brighton & Hove Issues Forum. My simplest solution then is to
resend it. So, here it is:
David Braund
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Braund" <email obscured>>
To: "tony greenstein" <email obscured>>; "Helen Russell"
<email obscured>>; "issues k" <email obscured>>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and Picket -
January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
I thought I was doing reasonably well in following this exchange of ideas.
Ducking and diving through the offensive terms seemed no great barrier to
understanding what TG was saying. After all, insults are pretty small beer
when set against the actual violence done on a daily basis to the oppressed
and abused. And then I was pulled up short by: 'American Jews do try to control
the world, by proxy. So far they are doing pretty well for themselves at
least.' It's not always certain if TG is quoting or speaking his mind but in
this case it looked like the latter. So now I'm at a loss. Should it have
been 'American Zionists', or 'Some American Jews', or simply 'American
supporters of the current Israeli adminisration' or is it simply that
somewhere I lost the plot?
David Braund
----- Original Message -----
From: "tony greenstein" <email obscured>>
To: "Helen Russell" <email obscured>>; "issues k"
<email obscured>>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and Picket -
January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
> Yes these are reasonable questions and observations.
>
> Of course the occupation of Palestine by the Zionists, and not just the
post-67 territories is political. It is also backed to the hilt by the
present government and the opposition. Indeed there isn't a piece of paper
that could be put between their position. And yes, as with Iraq and Iran,
religion is used as the cloak for imperial ambition. I would quote the
word's of Bob Dylan's With God On Our Side but I realised that being Jewish
he'd probably offend Bernard.
>
> What is completely unacceptable is when a poster to this list states
things such as:
>
> 'How very typically jewish! Or should I say Israeli? It's a fine
distinction it seems to
> me, as most jews I've met (admittedly not a huge or necessarily
representative number) are supportive of Israel and its existence in
Palestine - and therefore its brutal oppression of the Palestinians. ... if
that makes me antisemitic, then I'm proud to be antisemitic!'
>
> Even excluding the racist stereotype 'typically Jewish' (would typically
Black be a help maybe not these days) it seems that most list members are
unable to perceive the above for what it is. The fact that some Jews do
support Israel and what it does is irrelevant. I don't for one nor do many
others. But I do understand racism, be it anti-Palestinian or anti-Jewish.
And I'm surprised at the no. of people who seem incapable here of
recognising the very clear difference between anti-Semitism and
anti-Zionism. Val Cane and Roy Pennington have both posted and I would have
expected them to at least recognise there was an issue.
>
> Helen says she doesn't know what to believe. Fine. I post below an extract
of his sayings. Lets see who can spot why they are anti-Semitic. American
Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are
an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try
to control the world, by proxy. So far they are doing pretty well for
themselves at least. Whether the Americans enjoy the deterioration of their
state's affairs will no doubt be revealed soon.
http://www.gilad..co.uk/html%20files/onanti.html In June, Gilad distributed
an article by his friend Paul Eisen, entitled "The Holocaust Wars". It is a
defence of the neo-Nazi and Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel Gilad described
"Holocaust Wars" as a great text to me in an e-mail, which has been widely
distributed, landing up in Aaronovitchs appalling Times column. Gilad also
informed me that Israel Shamir was a "unique and advanced thinker". His
independent thinking includes
> describing Auschwitz as a labour rather than as an internment camp.
http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Who_Needs.htm The idea that Zionists
have taken over America might sound bizarre in the first instance but we
must remember that this kind of strange scenario does happen. Last month I
heard Israel Shamir's observation regarding this very issue. American
foreign policy is dictated by a very marginal group of Zionist activists,
even by the state of Israel itself. Good news for Israel, quite an amazing
achievement for a microscopic state. But is it good news for the American
people? Is it good news for the world?
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/protocols.html The J word, the J
people and the J spot-Gilad Atzmon The Js are the ultimate chameleons,
they can be whatever they like as long as it serves as some expedient.
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/jspot.html On Anti-Semitism Gilad
Atzmon 20.12.2003 I would suggest that perhaps we should face it once
> and for all: the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus who, by
the way, was himself a Palestinian Jew. But then two questions should be
asked:
> Helen Russell <email obscured>> wrote:
> Sorry, but isn't the occupation of Palestinian land by Israel a
political thing? Is it not another instance of religion being used as an
excuse, a cover, for imperialist acquisition? I'm fed up with the name
calling. None of us will be any the wiser if we get lost in slagging each
other off like this. Feelings run very high over issues like this, but there
is a place for them, and at the moment feelings are just obscuring any real
debate.
>
> I think we would all agree that the death and destruction in the Middle
East is unspeakable, but we have to find ways to speak about it in order to
do something about it. I knew nothing about Gilad Atzmon before this
exchange, and unfortunately have learned little, except perhaps from Tony
Cook's observation of some contradictions - which just goes to show how easy
it is to divide and rule through propaganda!
>
> Whether these people should be given a platform is a tricky question.
Often they destroy their message simply through their irrationality. And
don't forget that freedom of speech is counterbalanced by the freedom to
answer back. But our answers have to be carefully reasoned factual
arguments. If someone could extrapolate some facts here that would be a
start. Helen Russell
> Brighton, Brighton & Hove City Council
> Info about Helen Russell:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/helenrussell
>
> ---------------------------------
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
> Tony greenstein
>
----- Original Message -----
From: David Botibol
To: David Braund
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and Picket -
January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
Hi David,
I'm not sure that I have understood what you are asking. On which forum
was your posting not delivered: the SCIP Discussion List, or Brighton & Hove
Issues? When posting to either forum I log in to it and use its web interface.
That seems to work quicker and with more certainty than sending an email to it.
Maybe you sent an email and it was delayed somewhere in the system, or the
destination address wasn't correct, or the sending address wasn't the one that
you registered.
Regards,
- David
----- Original Message -----
From: David Braund
To: Brighton & Hove Issues Forum ; David Botibol
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and Picket -
January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
I also posted on this topic to this forum a day earlier than you, but unlike
your posting mine does not appear to have been delivered. Why is this? I'm
not aware of any mechanism for one subscriber to prevent publication of a
post to a thread on this forum because they have "moved it" to another
forum.
Unless it is just that only I have not received a copy, an explanation is
awaited.
David Braund
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Botibol" <email obscured>>
To: "Brighton & Hove Issues Forum" <email obscured>>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and Picket -
January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
> For any readers who wish to follow this topic, Tony G appears to have
moved it to the SCIP Discussion List at
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/scip-discussion/message/8868
>
> David Botibol
> Goldstone Valley, Hove
> Info about David Botibol:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/botiboldavid
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/qPN0bQKhHJZZMgPUmcOOU
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
From:
Anthony Zacharzewski
Date:
2008 Jan 12 15:16 UTC
Short link
I think you'll find he's quoting Atzmon in that passage. A few
sentences before, Tony says:
"I post below an extract of his sayings. Lets see who can spot why
they are anti-Semitic. "
I think the Atzmon extract then runs to the statement ending
"was himself a Palestinian Jew. "
Anthony
On 12 Jan 2008, at 14:46, David Braund wrote:
> then I was pulled up short by: 'American Jews do try to control the
> world, by proxy. So far they are doing pretty well for themselves at
> least.' It's not always certain if TG is quoting or speaking his
> mind but in
> this case it looked like the latter. So now I'm at a loss. Should it
> have
> been 'American Zionists', or 'Some American Jews', or simply 'American
> supporters of the current Israeli adminisration' or is it simply that
> somewhere I lost the plot?
>
> David Braund
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tony greenstein" <email obscured>>
> To: "Helen Russell" <email obscured>>; "issues k"
> <email obscured>>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 1:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and
> Picket -
> January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
>
>
>> Yes these are reasonable questions and observations.
>>
>> Of course the occupation of Palestine by the Zionists, and not
>> just the
> post-67 territories is political. It is also backed to the hilt by the
> present government and the opposition. Indeed there isn't a piece of
> paper
> that could be put between their position. And yes, as with Iraq and
> Iran,
> religion is used as the cloak for imperial ambition. I would quote the
> word's of Bob Dylan's With God On Our Side but I realised that being
> Jewish
> he'd probably offend Bernard.
>>
>> What is completely unacceptable is when a poster to this list states
> things such as:
>>
>> 'How very typically jewish! Or should I say Israeli? It's a fine
> distinction it seems to
>> me, as most jews I've met (admittedly not a huge or necessarily
> representative number) are supportive of Israel and its existence in
> Palestine - and therefore its brutal oppression of the
> Palestinians. ... if
> that makes me antisemitic, then I'm proud to be antisemitic!'
>>
>> Even excluding the racist stereotype 'typically Jewish' (would
>> typically
> Black be a help maybe not these days) it seems that most list
> members are
> unable to perceive the above for what it is. The fact that some Jews
> do
> support Israel and what it does is irrelevant. I don't for one nor
> do many
> others. But I do understand racism, be it anti-Palestinian or anti-
> Jewish.
> And I'm surprised at the no. of people who seem incapable here of
> recognising the very clear difference between anti-Semitism and
> anti-Zionism. Val Cane and Roy Pennington have both posted and I
> would have
> expected them to at least recognise there was an issue.
>>
>> Helen says she doesn't know what to believe. Fine. I post below an
>> extract
> of his sayings. Lets see who can spot why they are anti-Semitic.
> American
> Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of
> Zion' are
> an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews
> do try
> to control the world, by proxy. So far they are doing pretty well for
> themselves at least. Whether the Americans enjoy the deterioration
> of their
> state's affairs will no doubt be revealed soon.
> http://www.gilad..co.uk/html%20files/onanti.html In June, Gilad
> distributed
> an article by his friend Paul Eisen, entitled "The Holocaust Wars".
> It is a
> defence of the neo-Nazi and Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel Gilad
> described
> "Holocaust Wars" as a great text to me in an e-mail, which has been
> widely
> distributed, landing up in Aaronovitchs appalling Times column.
> Gilad also
> informed me that Israel Shamir was a "unique and advanced thinker".
> His
> independent thinking includes
>> describing Auschwitz as a labour rather than as an internment camp.
> http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Who_Needs.htm The idea that
> Zionists
> have taken over America might sound bizarre in the first instance
> but we
> must remember that this kind of strange scenario does happen. Last
> month I
> heard Israel Shamir's observation regarding this very issue. American
> foreign policy is dictated by a very marginal group of Zionist
> activists,
> even by the state of Israel itself. Good news for Israel, quite an
> amazing
> achievement for a microscopic state. But is it good news for the
> American
> people? Is it good news for the world?
> http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/protocols.html The J word, the J
> people and the J spot-Gilad Atzmon The Js are the ultimate
> chameleons,
> they can be whatever they like as long as it serves as some expedient.
> http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/jspot.html On Anti-Semitism
> Gilad
> Atzmon 20.12.2003 I would suggest that perhaps we should face it
> once
>> and for all: the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus
>> who, by
> the way, was himself a Palestinian Jew. But then two questions
> should be
> asked:
>> Helen Russell <email obscured>> wrote:
>> Sorry, but isn't the occupation of Palestinian land by Israel a
> political thing? Is it not another instance of religion being used
> as an
> excuse, a cover, for imperialist acquisition? I'm fed up with the name
> calling. None of us will be any the wiser if we get lost in slagging
> each
> other off like this. Feelings run very high over issues like this,
> but there
> is a place for them, and at the moment feelings are just obscuring
> any real
> debate.
>>
>> I think we would all agree that the death and destruction in the
>> Middle
> East is unspeakable, but we have to find ways to speak about it in
> order to
> do something about it. I knew nothing about Gilad Atzmon before this
> exchange, and unfortunately have learned little, except perhaps from
> Tony
> Cook's observation of some contradictions - which just goes to show
> how easy
> it is to divide and rule through propaganda!
>>
>> Whether these people should be given a platform is a tricky question.
> Often they destroy their message simply through their irrationality.
> And
> don't forget that freedom of speech is counterbalanced by the
> freedom to
> answer back. But our answers have to be carefully reasoned factual
> arguments. If someone could extrapolate some facts here that would
> be a
> start. Helen Russell
>> Brighton, Brighton & Hove City Council
>> Info about Helen Russell:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/helenrussell
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>> Tony greenstein
>>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Botibol
> To: David Braund
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 11:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and
> Picket - January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> I'm not sure that I have understood what you are asking. On
> which forum was your posting not delivered: the SCIP Discussion
> List, or Brighton & Hove Issues? When posting to either forum I log
> in to it and use its web interface. That seems to work quicker and
> with more certainty than sending an email to it. Maybe you sent an
> email and it was delayed somewhere in the system, or the destination
> address wasn't correct, or the sending address wasn't the one that
> you registered.
>
> Regards,
>
> - David
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Braund
> To: Brighton & Hove Issues Forum ; David Botibol
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 10:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and
> Picket - January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
>
>
> I also posted on this topic to this forum a day earlier than you,
> but unlike
> your posting mine does not appear to have been delivered. Why is
> this? I'm
> not aware of any mechanism for one subscriber to prevent
> publication of a
> post to a thread on this forum because they have "moved it" to
> another
> forum.
>
> Unless it is just that only I have not received a copy, an
> explanation is
> awaited.
>
> David Braund
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Botibol" <email obscured>>
> To: "Brighton & Hove Issues Forum" <email obscured>>
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 10:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and
> Picket -
> January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
>
>
>> For any readers who wish to follow this topic, Tony G appears to have
> moved it to the SCIP Discussion List at
>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/scip-discussion/message/8868
>>
>> David Botibol
>> Goldstone Valley, Hove
>> Info about David Botibol:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/botiboldavid
>>
>> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/qPN0bQKhHJZZMgPUmcOOU
>> -----------------------------------------
>> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
>> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
>> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>>
>> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
>> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>>
>> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>>
>
>
> David Braund
>
> Info about David Braund: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/davidbraund
>
> This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/uSZLtyeCenroRa8CBs9X9
> -----------------------------------------
> To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
> To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
> in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
>
> More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
>
> E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
From:
Tom Coady
Date:
2008 Jan 13 08:10 UTC
Short link
On Jan 11, 2008 10:41 PM, mango <email obscured>> wrote:
> They are called the Shamanic and Ecological Association and lurking behind
> the attractive mystical ecological ideas are virulent homophobia and
> anti-semitism. Just have a look at their newsletter if you don't believe me.
> I have contacted the centre about this and would appreciate some support.
I assume you're referring to http://www.shamanismoflight.org/
I've scanned through as much as I can digest but so far fail to see much
evidence to support your assertion - but I could not find the newsletter.
From:
David Braund
Date:
2008 Jan 13 13:40 UTC
Short link
What amazes me is that there are still people from whose eyes the scales
have yet to fall. (Ditto Browntrouser.)
David Braund
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Cook" <email obscured>>
To: "Brighton & Hove Issues Forum" <email obscured>>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and Picket -
January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
> Talking of reconciliation, combatting prejudice and the need for civil
> discourse, I see the peace envoy to the Middle East has declared an
> interest that - once again - questions his credentials as an 'honest
> broker' ....
>
>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jan/10/blairjpmorgan?gusrc=rss&feed=
networkfront
>
> ... call me cynical but I see evidence of payback time for services
> previously rendered.
>
> If the heat generated by our own debate is anything to go by, this
> news of a banking connection will only serve to inflate rather than
> disperse anti-semitic sentiments in the region. Whether it's to be a
> 3-state, 2-state, 1-state or 0-state solution should arise from
> seeking out the greatest good for all, not the greatest reward for
> 'moi'.
>
> With this news his integrity is surely compromised. No matter how
> objective or practical the thinking the more partisan it will appear
> to be. Especially if he tries to focus minds on lifting the blockade,
> on the need for infrastructure and investment, on tackling the
> material grievances that fuel all the others ... and then proposes a
> Private Finance Initiative.
>
> Tony C
>
> Tony Cook
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1221 - Release Date: 12/01/2008
14:04
From:
Tony greenstein
Date:
2008 Jan 13 15:10 UTC
Short link
Yes but one should do is to resist the temptation. Blair hasn't supported
Israel, anymore than Bush has done, because of a payback from international
bankers. There really is no need to go into stuff which is inevitably part of
the old anti-semitic conspiracy theories.
Blair supports Israel for the same he supported the US in Iraq and Iran.
Oil, British power in this world, imperial interests. Those who look to
conspiracy theories when there are quite clear and obvious explanations
actually let those who are responsible off the hook.
If you seek out some 'Jewish cabal of bankers' & I'm not saying David does,
then you let off the Cheneys and their Halliburtons etc. And what Blair is
doing is not unusual. John Major had a similar raft of appointments when he
left office, Trilateral Commission etc. This is the corruption in the system
we live in and nothing to do with being Jewish. That is the problem with
people like Atzmon. They are gradually polluting debates about Palestine,
which in the end helps not the Palestinians but the Zionists by allowing them
to portray supporters of the palestinians and anti-Zionists as anti-Semitic.
Tony G
David Braund <email obscured>> wrote:
What amazes me is that there are still people from whose eyes the scales
have yet to fall. (Ditto Browntrouser.)
David Braund
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Cook"
To: "Brighton & Hove Issues Forum"
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and Picket -
January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
> Talking of reconciliation, combatting prejudice and the need for civil
> discourse, I see the peace envoy to the Middle East has declared an
> interest that - once again - questions his credentials as an 'honest
> broker' ....
>
>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jan/10/blairjpmorgan?gusrc=rss&feed=
networkfront
>
> ... call me cynical but I see evidence of payback time for services
> previously rendered.
>
> If the heat generated by our own debate is anything to go by, this
> news of a banking connection will only serve to inflate rather than
> disperse anti-semitic sentiments in the region. Whether it's to be a
> 3-state, 2-state, 1-state or 0-state solution should arise from
> seeking out the greatest good for all, not the greatest reward for
> 'moi'.
>
> With this news his integrity is surely compromised. No matter how
> objective or practical the thinking the more partisan it will appear
> to be. Especially if he tries to focus minds on lifting the blockade,
> on the need for infrastructure and investment, on tackling the
> material grievances that fuel all the others ... and then proposes a
> Private Finance Initiative.
>
> Tony C
>
> Tony Cook
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1221 - Release Date: 12/01/2008
14:04
David Braund
Info about David Braund: http://forums.e-democracy.org/contacts/davidbraund
This topic's messages may be viewed at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/IpRwqHVGS9Qt8m80KWeng
-----------------------------------------
To post, send your message to: <email obscured>
To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on,"
in subject line and send to: <email obscured>
More info about Brighton & Hove Issues Forum:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bh
E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
-----------------------------------------
Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
From:
David Braund
Date:
2008 Jan 13 17:32 UTC
Short link
Whoa, whoa, there! I don't even like the association of my name with phrases
such as you put in quotes in paragraph three sentence one. The idea of
letting off the 'Cheneys and their Halliburtons' from the trashing of other
countries of which they are neanderthally ignorant goes quite as much
against the grain with me as it does with you. I'm well aware that people of
any and all tribal backgrounds are currently racing to become the first
(oil?) trillionaires on the planet (the Bush dynasty probably in pole
position).
My post was made to this thread because the post that triggered it was made
to this thread. It was intended as criticism of a government machine which
is a mutual admiration and enriching club, whose main function is to
transfer huge wads of public money into private pockets. Many of those
pockets are those of previous members of this same organisation. Blair is
simply one more cog in the same machine. Hence my reference to scales from
eyes. Browntrouser shows no sign of changing (the new word) anything.
On the actual question of this thread, I would just like to say that until
we start writing and reading history from the point of view of the abused
and the oppressed (not the offended), nothing will change. To the abused,
the philosophical differences between their oppressors are meaningless.
Imagine what democracy would look like if violence were impossible.
Cheers,
David Braund
----- Original Message -----
From: "tony greenstein" <email obscured>>
To: "David Braund" <email obscured>>; "issues k"
<email obscured>>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and Picket -
January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
> Yes but one should do is to resist the temptation. Blair hasn't supported
Israel, anymore than Bush has done, because of a payback from international
bankers. There really is no need to go into stuff which is inevitably part
of the old anti-semitic conspiracy theories.
>
> Blair supports Israel for the same he supported the US in Iraq and Iran.
Oil, British power in this world, imperial interests. Those who look to
conspiracy theories when there are quite clear and obvious explanations
actually let those who are responsible off the hook.
>
> If you seek out some 'Jewish cabal of bankers' & I'm not saying David
does, then you let off the Cheneys and their Halliburtons etc. And what
Blair is doing is not unusual. John Major had a similar raft of
appointments when he left office, Trilateral Commission etc. This is the
corruption in the system we live in and nothing to do with being Jewish.
That is the problem with people like Atzmon. They are gradually polluting
debates about Palestine, which in the end helps not the Palestinians but the
Zionists by allowing them to portray supporters of the palestinians and
anti-Zionists as anti-Semitic.
>
> Tony G
>
> David Braund <email obscured>> wrote:
> What amazes me is that there are still people from whose eyes the scales
> have yet to fall. (Ditto Browntrouser.)
>
> David Braund
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Cook"
> To: "Brighton & Hove Issues Forum"
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [BH-Issues] Argus Article re Gilad Atzmon meeting and
Picket -
> January 7th 7.00 Brighthelm
>
>
> > Talking of reconciliation, combatting prejudice and the need for civil
> > discourse, I see the peace envoy to the Middle East has declared an
> > interest that - once again - questions his credentials as an 'honest
> > broker' ....
> >
> >
>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jan/10/blairjpmorgan?gusrc=rss&feed=
> networkfront
> >
> > ... call me cynical but I see evidence of payback time for services
> > previously rendered.
> >
> > If the heat generated by our own debate is anything to go by, this
> > news of a banking connection will only serve to inflate rather than
> > disperse anti-semitic sentiments in the region. Whether it's to be a
> > 3-state, 2-state, 1-state or 0-state solution should arise from
> > seeking out the greatest good for all, not the greatest reward for
> > 'moi'.
> >
> > With this news his integrity is surely compromised. No matter how
> > objective or practical the thinking the more partisan it will appear
> > to be. Especially if he tries to focus minds on lifting the blockade,
> > on the need for infrastructure and investment, on tackling the
> > material grievances that fuel all the others ... and then proposes a
> > Private Finance Initiative.
> >
> > Tony C
> >
> > Tony Cook
> >
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1221 - Release Date: 12/01/2008
14:04