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There are 9 posts — by 7 authors — in this topic.
Latest post made by Steven Cooper at Jun 22 17:18 UTC

From: charlie bolton Date: Jun 12 14:53 UTC Short link

I've just had a letter from Trimedia in London re emerging proposals for
Tesco's at Ashton Gate on display

Friday 19th June 15.30 to 7.30
Saturday 20th June 10 to 4pm

Premier Suite at the Ashton Gate Stadium

I guess loads of others have?



Charlie Bolton
Green Party Councillor
Southville

From: Liz L Date: Jun 18 21:33 UTC Short link

Hi - I'm new to this  ... I had a letter about the proposed Tesco on Saturday
so looked to see if there was any kind of reaction to it & found this forum.
There was something on the local news today about only Saturday's exhibition at
the stadium being open to the public, which doesn't match with what the letter
said, but maybe I misheard/misunderstood.  Anyway, I emailed Trimedia about it
earlier in the week & they said:

"Bristol City Football Club is currently looking at options for future use of
the site and this is a pre-application consultation exhibition, which is an
opportunity for the local community to view the emerging proposals and give
their views.

Once a planning application is submitted, which is likely to happen later this
year, there is a formal period of statutory consultation during which you can
object to the proposals if you so wish. You can write to Bristol City Council
to give your representation. Richard Matthews is the Coordinator of the Major
Scheme Coordination Team for the Planning Department."

This surely has to be stopped ....

From: maggie shapland Date: Jun 18 22:45 UTC Short link

community involvement seems to take many forms depending on how big the
application is.
Something as big as a Tesco would mean a series of public meetings where
the developer works with the community and tries to take all their concerns
into account before putting in the application. They should then revise
their plans taking into account what they hear. They can also gauge what
the communities feeling are and whether it is worth going ahead. This after
all is a local issue as opposed to a government decree. This does not stop
you from complaining about specifics if you do not agree with something.
Why dont you contact Alison Bromilow <alison at rcas.org.uk>? She has been
working hard for the last year on setting up Bristol Neighbourhood Planning
Network (NPN) www.bristolnpn.net and has prepared pre-application forms

--On 19 June 2009 09:36 +1200 <email obscured> wrote:

> Hi - I'm new to this  ... I had a letter about the proposed Tesco on
> Saturday so looked to see if there was any kind of reaction to it & found
> this forum.  There was something on the local news today about only
> Saturday's exhibition at the stadium being open to the public, which
> doesn't match with what the letter said, but maybe I
> misheard/misunderstood.  Anyway, I emailed Trimedia about it earlier in
> the week & they said:
>
> "Bristol City Football Club is currently looking at options for future
> use of the site and this is a pre-application consultation exhibition,
> which is an opportunity for the local community to view the emerging
> proposals and give their views.
>
> Once a planning application is submitted, which is likely to happen later
> this year, there is a formal period of statutory consultation during
> which you can object to the proposals if you so wish. You can write to
> Bristol City Council to give your representation. Richard Matthews is the
> Coordinator of the Major Scheme Coordination Team for the Planning
> Department."
>
> This surely has to be stopped ....
>
> Liz
> Liz Lowe
> Southville, Bristol
> Info about Liz L: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/5BaiWyLirZYyL2npe9AVfK
>
> View all messages on this topic at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/7c9H9HIPFZINeZ8v6FBzDc
> -----------------------------------------
>   To post, e-mail: <email obscured>
>   Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly.
>   To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on"
>   in subject, then send to: <email obscured>
>
>   More information about Bristol - Greater Bedminster Neighbourhood
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>
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> -----------------------------------------
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--
----------------------
Maggie Shapland, Information Service, University of Bristol, Tyndall Av,
Bristol BS8 1UD. Tel: 0117-9289869 (Internal 89869)
Email: <email obscured>
Web pages: http://eis.bris.ac.uk/~ccmjs/ http://www.b-i-a-s.org.uk
http://www.cliftonhotwells.org.uk , Clifton Rocks Railway restoration,
1924 Lanchester 21, 1925 Talbot 10/23, 1929 Peugeot 190S, 1986 Moss Monaco

From: Steve Loughan Date: Jun 20 10:03 UTC Short link

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Maggie
<email obscured>> wrote:
> community involvement seems to take many forms depending on how big the
> application is.
> Something as big as a Tesco would mean a series of public meetings where
> the developer works with the community and tries to take all their concerns
> into account before putting in the application. They should then revise
> their plans taking into account what they hear. They can also gauge what
> the communities feeling are and whether it is worth going ahead. This after
> all is a local issue as opposed to a government decree. This does not stop
> you from complaining about specifics if you do not agree with something.
> Why dont you contact Alison Bromilow <alison at rcas.org.uk>? She has been
> working hard for the last year on setting up Bristol Neighbourhood Planning
> Network (NPN) www.bristolnpn.net and has prepared pre-application forms

If you can, you don't want to wait until the planning application
comes in before starting to push back. By then Tescos or whoever will
have signed up the various provisional contracts with various local
suppliers and builders, and all of them will have been approaching the
councillors to sell the benefits of the development (employment,
stadium falling through if tescos don't get the supermarket), the
media (here: the Evening Post), and hence convincing the whole city
that it's progress.

Currently, ashton gate is chaos on a match day, which is what, once a
fortnight? Come Tescos, it may be another 7x24 site like Eastville,
and even if not, there is still the supply chain logistics that
mandates truck deliveries at the best time to suit tesco and the need
for an HGV to get round 17 sites in bristol before heading over to
wales.

From: tony@simplysouthville Date: Jun 20 19:36 UTC Short link

Went down to the event at Ashton Gate on Saturday to find out about the
development, only to be told in a very patronising manner that it was all for
my benefit as a local resident!

And I couldn't believe the arrogant comment uttered by the Tesco representative
- find out wht she said at http://simplysouthville.blogspot.com/

If we are going to fight this development we need to get organised, and
quickly! I'm ready to help out. Let's get started.

Tony
Simply Southville

From: Steve Loughan Date: Jun 20 21:02 UTC Short link

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 8:39 PM, <email obscured>> wrote:
> Went down to the event at Ashton Gate on Saturday to find out about the
development, only to be told in a very patronising manner that it was all for
my benefit as a local resident!
>
> And I couldn't believe the arrogant comment uttered by the Tesco
representative - find out wht she said at http://simplysouthville.blogspot.com/
>
> If we are going to fight this development we need to get organised, and
quickly! I'm ready to help out. Let's get started.
>

Your's an Alice;s Amys make good points, especially the schools issue.
This is very like the situation up by the cricket grounds, where
extra parking for the cricketers got priority over school spaces.

1. There are people in Knowle fighting Tesco's plans for building over
a pub there -get in touch to make common cause:
http://vowlesthegreen.blogspot.com/search/label/Tesco

2. It may be possible to use the delivery problems of even the Tesco
metros against them, shows they really don't care for the safety of
their customers. This was discussed in the forum back on Feb 9 -has
anything happened since then? I wonder if getting an ASBO for tescos
delivery teams there would give them a bit of a black eye.

3. It's important to separate out the new stadium proposal from the
supermarket. Is it really the case that a new stadium can't be built
on green-belt land if the old site is turned into housing? Because
otherwise tescos, Bristol City and the E.P will portray everyone who
is against tescos as being against Bristol City, and you don't want
that.

4. There's a (fairly low level) presentation on some of the computing
infrastructure lessons learned keeping bus rapid transit off the
bristol-bath railway path. Its written for a computing/open source
audience, which is why its a bit odd in places
http://railwaypath.sourceforge.net/slides/2008-07-05-overthrowing.pdf
  * council petitions work, we have the code to go to the council web
site, extract off the ward from every signatory, and give you a table
of signatories per ward, very good when approaching councillors
  * facebook and websites; you can use a blogger site and not spend
any money/time on hosting
  * if you buy a domain for £15 Google apps can provide with email for
free, it makes you look way more organised than you are
 * leafletting is a really great way of getting involvement, as is
petitions. Paper petitions are valued more by the council.
Get everyone's email address (block capitals) and mobile # for followup.
 * Leaflet printing can be a big expense. But if someone has a laser
printer, running out very short runs -such as custom ones for
different streets- is possible and not that expensive.

5. Someone needs to be press officer, start talking to the E.P and
other outlets themselves. The more press releases you put out the
better. The Bristol Blogger is very influential, Bristol Indymedia
pretty popular too, and you can put your own press notices out on it.

From: charlie bolton Date: Jun 22 08:59 UTC Short link

I went on Friday, and beyond being told it was bigger (sligtly) than Asda or
Sainsburies, and that it would have 530 (ish) parking spaces, it seemed to be
curiously light on fact.

I was also told it wouldn't compete with North St, and indeed would be of
benefit to North St (although they seememd to try and answer my questions with
questions). I was also told they hoped people would walk there, which seems
curious in light of the comment on your blog.

Happy to meet up. I'm around this week, but not next - could do early Wednesday
or later Thursday evening.

Charlie Bolton
Green Party Councillor
Southville
>>> <email obscured>> 06/20/09 8:39 PM >>>
Went down to the event at Ashton Gate on Saturday to find out about the
development, only to be told in a very patronising manner that it was all for
my benefit as a local resident!

And I couldn't believe the arrogant comment uttered by the Tesco representative
- find out wht she said at http://simplysouthville.blogspot.com/

If we are going to fight this development we need to get organised, and
quickly! I'm ready to help out. Let's get started.

Tony
Simply Southville
Tony @ Simply Southville
Southville, Bristol
Info about tony@simplysouthville:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/4Afeb3ikR4KdzrjQyhNhD4

View all messages on this topic at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5NxDfuAz2mqr7jH5DFXcbm

From: Stephen Wickham Date: Jun 22 16:45 UTC Short link

I went near the end time on Saturday. Early thoughts:
Fairly simplistic display, possibly less cynical than the first round of St
Pauls Dove Lane which to date takes my biscuit for lack of info and closed
but leading positive questions in a highly publicised consultation, (with
any negative commentators left off the email news list subsequently!) just
to put it in context. But use of London PR consultants should raise the
question of velvet-clad bulldozers versus a scheme genuinely shaped by local
input!  :)

Site specifics, a very dull low-ish-rise supermarket with just under 550 car
spaces.
Car access via Wedlock's way, as existing Halfords / PC World site on
Winterstoke Road with existing roundabout unchanged. Its relatively
difficult to exit from this site onto the roundabout when traffic is flowing
freely on the main road. And the industrial zone traffic lights at Marsh
Lane / Ashton Vale Rd to the North of the site are complex enough as they
are.

I predict this will hurt Sainsbury's as much by preventing customers getting
there as by other aspects of competition. We all know Winterstoke road jams
up twice a day so why shouldn't this add to congestion in the locality, ie
for more minutes of the day, and encourage more rat-running through
Southville back-streets and , say , the Chessels? And jam up Coronation
Road. The City fails to acknowledge it has a problem with under-capacity on
Winterstoke Road leading to this kind of problem as it is however. I can't
speak for Ashton Vale residents but I get the impression they have their own
problems of being grid-locked into their private enclave.
Something tells me to expect a neutral traffic impact report however!!!

One irony perhaps is that I'm fairly sure Sainsbury's had to relinquish its
St Catherine's place site as a condition for Winterstoke Road under rules of
the day. We were told Tesco don't see things this way regarding their  North
Street and West Street operations, (and would doubtless be happy to operate
a further express or metro in Duckmoor road if the business case looked
attractive as they are such a different customer offer than a superstore?
!! )

This superstore option appears attractive to the football club for obvious
reasons which presumably  include maximum cash value in the present property
market, which just now favours neither offices nor housing, (even if thats
what the district needs, non-retail employment and larger family dwellings)
and its simple, just one fairly bullish developer to deal with. So that
reduces the risk of a key player going bankrupt, or whatever.
Seems to me this will add to A38 / A370 traffic problems on match days
without providing any parking for the larger crowds expected at the new
enlarged stadium. The shop will presumably penalise non customer parking
aggressively , just as Aldi do, so how will this benefit North Street shops
and restaurants by bringing in new custom as the Football club spokesman
claims in the press? I fear too many spokesmen telling us what we want to
hear but not what they can deliver.
I'm mindful of other peoples comments about confusing the two issues of the
New Stadium and Tesco's here but in this respect they must intermesh and
solutions must be found.

I think the Evening post "exclusives" in Mondays edition 22 June, rather
back up the simplicity of the business case.
Tesco's offering most money in the recession,
Tesco's likely to be stable in the recession,
so whether the community wants the idea or not Tesco's is the imposed
solution.
( Or knight in shining armour as the paper puts it! )

What I'm unclear about is the certainty of this new world cup hype.
Under this proposal we definitely get a Tesco, and we might just possibly
get a  world cup match ? But equally we might not. But in the mean time
anyone saying that is likely to be deemed unpatriotic in some way! Which is
patently unfair. And the planning application goes in next month, so are
they really going to change it?

A few years ago Bristol fancied its chances as City of culture 2008.
Now I'm sure that wasn't a level playing field, (ie Bristol had no hope
despite its many obvious merits) but the City felt it had to build some new
venues to improve its chances. So we were almost saddled with some extreme
substitutes for the very popular industrial museum. And we resisted that,
which is just as well, as the national bid was lost, and we can just about
afford the "heritage" building we are getting a few years after the event.

I could say I wished some more exciting architecture had emerged elsewhere
in Harbourside, but I'd be a long way from Tesco's by then !

  S

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Bolton" <email obscured>>
To: <email obscured>>; <email obscured>>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [GB-Forum] Tesco's at Ashton Gate


>I went on Friday, and beyond being told it was bigger (sligtly) than Asda
>or Sainsburies, and that it would have 530 (ish) parking spaces, it seemed
>to be curiously light on fact.
>
> I was also told it wouldn't compete with North St, and indeed would be of
> benefit to North St (although they seememd to try and answer my questions
> with questions). I was also told they hoped people would walk there, which
> seems curious in light of the comment on your blog.
>
> Happy to meet up. I'm around this week, but not next - could do early
> Wednesday or later Thursday evening.
>
> Charlie Bolton
> Green Party Councillor
> Southville
>>>> <email obscured>> 06/20/09 8:39 PM >>>
> Went down to the event at Ashton Gate on Saturday to find out about the
> development, only to be told in a very patronising manner that it was all
> for my benefit as a local resident!
>
> And I couldn't believe the arrogant comment uttered by the Tesco
> representative - find out wht she said at
> http://simplysouthville.blogspot.com/
>
> If we are going to fight this development we need to get organised, and
> quickly! I'm ready to help out. Let's get started.
>
> Tony
> Simply Southville
> Tony @ Simply Southville
> Southville, Bristol
> Info about tony@simplysouthville:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/4Afeb3ikR4KdzrjQyhNhD4
>
> View all messages on this topic at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5NxDfuAz2mqr7jH5DFXcbm
> -----------------------------------------
>  To post, e-mail: <email obscured>
>  Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly.
>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on"
>  in subject, then send to: <email obscured>
>
>  More information about Bristol - Greater Bedminster Neighbourhood Forum:
>  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bemmy-forum
>
>  E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> -----------------------------------------
> Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> 'Do it online' with our growing range of online services -
> http://www.bristol.gov.uk/services
>
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> information at: http://www.bristol.gov.uk/newsdirect
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> ______________________________________________________________________
> 'Do it online' with our growing range of online services -
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> information at: http://www.bristol.gov.uk/newsdirect
>
> View webcasts of Council meetings at http://www.bristol.gov.uk/webcast
>
> charles bolton
> Southville, Bristol
> Info about charlie bolton: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/charliebolton
>
> View all messages on this topic at:
> http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/HVpzFTdMlkWSiy2WyiOpF
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>  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on"
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>

From: Steven Cooper Date: Jun 22 17:18 UTC Short link

Hi,

I've never replied to any of these emails before and am not sure if this will
reach everyone...or even if this has been explored.

Wouldn't the best way to stop a supermarket from building be to use the skills
of supermarkets to get these things past planning boards, against them?

Surely Sainsburys and Asda, along side the other smaller shops, will be against
this themselves as it will directly impact their sales?

So why not ask them to help and get behind a campaign like this??? They have
clout themselves and maybe able to do things that are out of the scope of this
group, know exactly what the council said they weren't allowed to do last time.
Tell the planners this will actually affect jobs in their stores to counteract
the point of x number of new jobs at Tesco. Get Jamie Oliver behind it

Also what is the planned alternative instead of Tesco? Could they put a roof on
top and replace the grass with another surface and call it Bristol Arena, have
conferences there, indoor sporting events, concerts etc in fact all of the
things Bristol Arena was due to hold before the plug got pulled? Get Sainsburys
to sponsor it and pay towards the cost!?!

Steven.

> From: <email obscured>
> To: <email obscured>; <email obscured>;
<email obscured>

> Subject: Re: [GB-Forum] Tesco's at Ashton Gate
> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:03:32 +0100
>
> I went near the end time on Saturday. Early thoughts:
> Fairly simplistic display, possibly less cynical than the first round of St
> Pauls Dove Lane which to date takes my biscuit for lack of info and closed
> but leading positive questions in a highly publicised consultation, (with
> any negative commentators left off the email news list subsequently!) just
> to put it in context. But use of London PR consultants should raise the
> question of velvet-clad bulldozers versus a scheme genuinely shaped by local
> input!  :)
>
> Site specifics, a very dull low-ish-rise supermarket with just under 550 car
> spaces.
> Car access via Wedlock's way, as existing Halfords / PC World site on
> Winterstoke Road with existing roundabout unchanged. Its relatively
> difficult to exit from this site onto the roundabout when traffic is flowing
> freely on the main road. And the industrial zone traffic lights at Marsh
> Lane / Ashton Vale Rd to the North of the site are complex enough as they
> are.
>
> I predict this will hurt Sainsbury's as much by preventing customers getting
> there as by other aspects of competition. We all know Winterstoke road jams
> up twice a day so why shouldn't this add to congestion in the locality, ie
> for more minutes of the day, and encourage more rat-running through
> Southville back-streets and , say , the Chessels? And jam up Coronation
> Road. The City fails to acknowledge it has a problem with under-capacity on
> Winterstoke Road leading to this kind of problem as it is however. I can't
> speak for Ashton Vale residents but I get the impression they have their own
> problems of being grid-locked into their private enclave.
> Something tells me to expect a neutral traffic impact report however!!!
>
> One irony perhaps is that I'm fairly sure Sainsbury's had to relinquish its
> St Catherine's place site as a condition for Winterstoke Road under rules of
> the day. We were told Tesco don't see things this way regarding their  North
> Street and West Street operations, (and would doubtless be happy to operate
> a further express or metro in Duckmoor road if the business case looked
> attractive as they are such a different customer offer than a superstore?
> !! )
>
> This superstore option appears attractive to the football club for obvious
> reasons which presumably  include maximum cash value in the present property
> market, which just now favours neither offices nor housing, (even if thats
> what the district needs, non-retail employment and larger family dwellings)
> and its simple, just one fairly bullish developer to deal with. So that
> reduces the risk of a key player going bankrupt, or whatever.
> Seems to me this will add to A38 / A370 traffic problems on match days
> without providing any parking for the larger crowds expected at the new
> enlarged stadium. The shop will presumably penalise non customer parking
> aggressively , just as Aldi do, so how will this benefit North Street shops
> and restaurants by bringing in new custom as the Football club spokesman
> claims in the press? I fear too many spokesmen telling us what we want to
> hear but not what they can deliver.
> I'm mindful of other peoples comments about confusing the two issues of the
> New Stadium and Tesco's here but in this respect they must intermesh and
> solutions must be found.
>
> I think the Evening post "exclusives" in Mondays edition 22 June, rather
> back up the simplicity of the business case.
> Tesco's offering most money in the recession,
> Tesco's likely to be stable in the recession,
> so whether the community wants the idea or not Tesco's is the imposed
> solution.
> ( Or knight in shining armour as the paper puts it! )
>
> What I'm unclear about is the certainty of this new world cup hype.
> Under this proposal we definitely get a Tesco, and we might just possibly
> get a  world cup match ? But equally we might not. But in the mean time
> anyone saying that is likely to be deemed unpatriotic in some way! Which is
> patently unfair. And the planning application goes in next month, so are
> they really going to change it?
>
> A few years ago Bristol fancied its chances as City of culture 2008.
> Now I'm sure that wasn't a level playing field, (ie Bristol had no hope
> despite its many obvious merits) but the City felt it had to build some new
> venues to improve its chances. So we were almost saddled with some extreme
> substitutes for the very popular industrial museum. And we resisted that,
> which is just as well, as the national bid was lost, and we can just about
> afford the "heritage" building we are getting a few years after the event.
>
> I could say I wished some more exciting architecture had emerged elsewhere
> in Harbourside, but I'd be a long way from Tesco's by then !
>
>   S
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Bolton" <email obscured>>
> To: <email obscured>>; <email obscured>>
> Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 9:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [GB-Forum] Tesco's at Ashton Gate
>
>
> >I went on Friday, and beyond being told it was bigger (sligtly) than Asda
> >or Sainsburies, and that it would have 530 (ish) parking spaces, it seemed
> >to be curiously light on fact.
> >
> > I was also told it wouldn't compete with North St, and indeed would be of
> > benefit to North St (although they seememd to try and answer my questions
> > with questions). I was also told they hoped people would walk there, which
> > seems curious in light of the comment on your blog.
> >
> > Happy to meet up. I'm around this week, but not next - could do early
> > Wednesday or later Thursday evening.
> >
> > Charlie Bolton
> > Green Party Councillor
> > Southville
> >>>> <email obscured>> 06/20/09 8:39 PM >>>
> > Went down to the event at Ashton Gate on Saturday to find out about the
> > development, only to be told in a very patronising manner that it was all
> > for my benefit as a local resident!
> >
> > And I couldn't believe the arrogant comment uttered by the Tesco
> > representative - find out wht she said at
> > http://simplysouthville.blogspot.com/
> >
> > If we are going to fight this development we need to get organised, and
> > quickly! I'm ready to help out. Let's get started.
> >
> > Tony
> > Simply Southville
> > Tony @ Simply Southville
> > Southville, Bristol
> > Info about tony@simplysouthville:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/4Afeb3ikR4KdzrjQyhNhD4
> >
> > View all messages on this topic at:
> > http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5NxDfuAz2mqr7jH5DFXcbm
> > -----------------------------------------
> >  To post, e-mail: <email obscured>
> >  Use "Reply-to-All" via e-mail to post publicly.
> >  To leave or for daily digest, type "unsubscribe" or "digest on"
> >  in subject, then send to: <email obscured>
> >
> >  More information about Bristol - Greater Bedminster Neighbourhood Forum:
> >  http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/bemmy-forum
> >
> >  E-Democracy.Org rules: http://e-democracy.org/rules
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Technical assistance thanks to our friends at http://OnlineGroups.Net
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > 'Do it online' with our growing range of online services -
> > http://www.bristol.gov.uk/services
> >
> > Sign-up for our email bulletin giving news, have-your-say and event
> > information at: http://www.bristol.gov.uk/newsdirect
> >
> > View webcasts of Council meetings at http://www.bristol.gov.uk/webcast
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > 'Do it online' with our growing range of online services -
> > http://www.bristol.gov.uk/services
> >
> > Sign-up for our email bulletin giving news, have-your-say and event
> > information at: http://www.bristol.gov.uk/newsdirect
> >
> > View webcasts of Council meetings at http://www.bristol.gov.uk/webcast
> >
> > charles bolton
> > Southville, Bristol
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> Stephen Wickham
>
> Info about Stephen Wickham: http://forums.e-democracy.org/p/wickhamstephen
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> View all messages on this topic at:
http://forums.e-democracy.org/r/topic/5NoZItlpnRZts0Y3rdx9oL
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